Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramacass 05-26-07, 05:19 AM	Can an unconscious character make a will save? or a reflex save? Thanks
Maesto 05-26-07, 08:21 AM	Yes. They get will saves as per normal, but reflex saves with a dexterity score of zero. So if you had +6 to reflex saves and dex of 10 normally, you've got a -5 penalty, so only +1 to reflex saves. Note that an unconscious or helpless person is considered "willing" for any spells which are "will negates (harmless)".
thorinXXX 05-26-07, 11:47 AM	[QUOTE=Maesto;12506491]Yes. They get will saves as per normal, but reflex saves with a dexterity score of zero. So if you had +6 to reflex saves and dex of 10 normally, you've got a -5 penalty, so only +1 to reflex saves. QUOTE] Your Dex is considered to be 0 which has a modifier of -5. This modifier replaces your normal modifier. Thus if your normal Ref save is +10 (+7 base, +3 Dex), your unconscious modifier is +2 (+7 base, -5 Dex).
bitznarf 05-26-07, 08:59 PM	So yes, oddly enough, that unconsious Rogue can totally avoid that fireball somehow.
Britt 05-26-07, 11:25 PM	AFAIK, there is no rule that says unconscious characters can make Reflex saves. Many people would consider that unreasonable.
clik_ml 05-27-07, 02:30 AM	So yes, oddly enough, that unconsious Rogue can totally avoid that fireball somehow. At the very least they do not get evasion. To quote the ability description of evasion in the rogue class... "A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion." Per the FAQ, they do get a saving throw however. FAQ, page 58: "If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep. " And the justifcation preceeding it... same page "A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate."
bitznarf 05-27-07, 03:18 AM	Could a helpless PC with a Ring of Evasion dodge a fireball entirely? IIRC the Ring doesn't refrence the Rogue ability.
Britt 05-27-07, 03:23 AM	Damn, so you do get a save. I don't like that, but that's the rule :)
Maesto 05-27-07, 04:00 AM	The important one (at least I think) is that unconscious characters are considered willing. For example, if you need to capture somebody alive, you can knock them unconscious and then teleport them, which needs "willing".
clik_ml 05-27-07, 11:41 AM	Could a helpless PC with a Ring of Evasion dodge a fireball entirely? IIRC the Ring doesn't refrence the Rogue ability. I think so. The ring is all kinds of awesome and I think it even works with heavy armor since it lacks any class reference or restriction. I'm tempted to get one for my druid cavalry, but it will be a good long while before he can afford it (and he's about to start crafting a whole ton of stuff in the meanwhile). The important one (at least I think) is that unconscious characters are considered willing. For example, if you need to capture somebody alive, you can knock them unconscious and then teleport them, which needs "willing". I thought that was a 3.0 sage/FAQ ruling that unconscious characers automatically failed saving throws. It was kind of shoddy since night ambushes become total murder then.
Timlagor 05-27-07, 01:15 PM	There is a specific rule that unconscious characters are "willing". It is not clear whether that extends to voluntarily failing Will Saves but it is definitely sufficient for Teleport. The Ring works in heavy armour when I GM but I'm not so sure about unconscious characters... I'd probably allow it though (especially since they're probably already in all sorts of trouble to be making a REf save while unconscious in the first place).
Ramacass 05-28-07, 04:09 AM	[QUOTE=Timlagor;12517328]There is a specific rule that unconscious characters are "willing". It is not clear whether that extends to voluntarily failing Will Saves but it is definitely sufficient for Teleport. QUOTE] Where is the rule that says unconscious characters are willing? Thanks
trollbill 05-28-07, 12:41 PM	Damn, so you do get a save. I don't like that, but that's the rule :) Even inanimate objects are allowed a Reflex save by the rules. It would be pretty sad if inanimate PCs weren't.
clik_ml 05-28-07, 01:56 PM	Even inanimate objects are allowed a Reflex save by the rules. It would be pretty sad if inanimate PCs weren't. Ehhh, objects don't get saves unless they are magical or attended. PHB, pg 166: "Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws,"
ShinAkuma2 05-28-07, 02:47 PM	Where is the rule that says unconscious characters are willing? Thanks It's in the spell section...Lemme see if I can find it in the SRD... Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
KarmaInferno 05-29-07, 09:31 PM	It's also downright un-heroic for PCs to die while asleep. PCs are the focus of the story. They should always get some chance to try and affect their fate. It won't always be a good chance, but it should always be there. The reflex-save-while-helpless follows previous edition trends as well. Back in second edition, the description for making a save against a fireball had the character merely "grit his teeth" against the pain, otherwise not moving at all. -karma
King Kashue 05-30-07, 12:49 AM	There is a specific rule that unconscious characters are "willing". Yes... I personally refer to this as the "Frat Boy Rule"...:D