Scorpion Heritor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Scorpion Heritor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aikan
02-03-06, 03:23 AM I have noticed that the PrC Scorpion Heritor is a core PrC, I think due its abilities that grant the character use of Con draining poison (which is an evil act) it should be moved to NPC only.

Aikan
redgamer
02-03-06, 03:31 AM It works because some (possibly most) people don't think posion is inherently evil. I will not argue whose right or wrong. It certaintly is something players of said character have to deal with. It works however because only triads can penalize you for having an evil character so all a player would have to do was find his or her triads stance on the issue not nessacarily ever judge they might possible play with. Wounding weapons, curses, poison (the spell) contagion, posions buyable by PCs and other LG legal spells, items, and IIRC feats give the ability to damage someones con.
Britt
02-03-06, 03:32 AM Could you reference something for the evil act bit? I was going to stay away as I thought this could degenerate into an unrelated argument like the other thread, but after thinking about it, it's directly on-point. AFAIK, there is nothing that says using poison is an evil act. I think this is a holdover from old editions that does not exist in 3.x. Granted, I wouldn't use it with my paladin, but I wouldn't immediately want to smite someone for using it either.
Mortepierre
02-03-06, 03:40 AM BoED (p.34):
Poison and disease are generally the tools of evil monsters and characters, implements of corruption and destruction. Using poison that deals ability damage is an evil act because it causes undue suffering in the process of incapacitating or killing an opponent. Of the poisons described in the DMG, only one is acceptable for good characters to use: oil of taggit.
Mortepierre
02-03-06, 03:43 AM It works however because only triads can penalize you for having an evil character so all a player would have to do was find his or her triads stance on the issue not nessacarily ever judge they might possible play with.

You bring an interesting argument. The fact that characters from the Bright Lands don't depend from a region (and thus a triad) but from "core" rulership could - in a way - protect them from such a penality.
Britt
02-03-06, 03:55 AM Thanks for the reference, Mortepierre. Though I don't agree with it, at least it's a reference :)

An interesting point is raised by the passage. If poison is evil *because* it causes undue suffering, then a poison that does not cause undue suffering need not be evil. The passage assumes that anything that does ability damage causes suffering, but that seems to me to be incorrect. There are many poisons in history that did not cause pain as they worked their magic. Anyways, that's not really important for the LGCS.

Back on point, you can commit evil acts in LG, you just can't "cross the line into true corruption" or one day you'll turn around and see "we three," the Triad there to take away your character ;) Channeling negative energy is an evil act, yet you are allowed to do so as a PC. So, you could use poison and not be an evil character.
Mortepierre
02-03-06, 04:07 AM As a side note, I should add the BoED also states that the sleep-inducing poison of the drow can be used by a Good character (which is highly ironic)
Simpi
02-03-06, 04:29 AM BoeD is not something we should look as campaign documentation, even if some items from it are in use. After all, we have regionals where you get poison access and Circle never said anything it not being allowed.

I could not actually find a reference to characters using poison being an evil act in this LGCS draft or in 4.2 version. I personally remembered there was something about CON poison being evil but now I cannot find even that. Perhaps we can finally start giving access to decent poisons to PCs as well.

S.H, the guy from Naerie
paigeoliver
02-03-06, 04:59 AM You bring an interesting argument. The fact that characters from the Bright Lands don't depend from a region (and thus a triad) but from "core" rulership could - in a way - protect them from such a penality.

You don't even need Bright Lands characters for that (since you can only have one of those). Just create characters from regions FAR away from you and you would never have a bit of interaction with any of the triad from your region.

Although, I'll bet there are plenty of LG players out there who never have any Triad interaction anyway. People who play in nothing but home games would be a good example. But another example would just be regions that cover multiple states.

For example Dyvers covers four HUGE states, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Nebraska. Three triad members means that at least one state doesn't even have a triad member at all.
haferka
02-03-06, 08:32 AM I have noticed that the PrC Scorpion Heritor is a core PrC, I think due its abilities that grant the character use of Con draining poison (which is an evil act) it should be moved to NPC only.

Aikan

Bright sands characters also have access to the scorpion tail whip.. which has a single dose of poison..

As a side note... nothing says that it is a single dose.. so unless the DM you are playing with actually made you record that it was used... you could use it again and again... Just a flaw in the item description.

Personally, I have never scored a crit with it yet... so I havnt used my poison.. but If I do, I plan to buy a new whip. I'll prob just rip the scorpion tail from the end of the whip, and call it a standard whip. (albeit a very expensive whip)
Arvagor
02-03-06, 10:59 AM As a side note, I should add the BoED also states that the sleep-inducing poison of the drow can be used by a Good character (which is highly ironic)Actually that whole BoED section is ironic, because it says "poison is evil", but then basically says, "Don't worry about it! Use these instead -- we call them ravages, they do the exact same thing as poisons, but they're not evil!" :uh-huh: I guess because of the illustration used (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75036.jpg), and the fact that the beholder looks stoned out of his eyes, that we're supposed to understand that he's not really in pain. But I digress... ;)

I'd like a more definitive answer as well -- I will admit partly because I have a character (a druid) who has (through indirect side-effect of the choice of modules played with him) evolved into somebody who sees poison as a natural weapon; his animal companion is a medium viper, after all, so if his companion can use poison, why can't the character himself? Is it because the PC is intelligent/sentient, and therefore "knows" that poison is wrong?

Although I want an answer, I seriously doubt the Circle wants to give one, because it generally evolves back into a moral debate (which is not what the LGCS is here for)
rook1138
02-03-06, 12:45 PM peronsonally, I'm generally under the idea that, in a magical world, poison is no more evil a substance than a fireball. The only difference, a commoner can potentially use poison to not be totally screwed when protecting his farm from an evil fighter or something (well, provided he hits the fighter...and the fighter fails his save...and the poison debilitates him enough so he doesn't kill the peasant in 1 hit...).

If this was a no/really low magic world, we'd have cause for concern. Since it's not, I don't really see the problem, especially considering the amount of things with high fort saves, immunity or resistance to poison, and the so called "good poisons" from BoED that someone pointed out, and the poisons that work on undead in LM, and so on, and so forth...

Also, especially considering there is the Poison Spell. the save isn't even off the spell level, but half the caster level, so can get pretty bad at higher levels, and is 1d10/1d10 con. If that doesn't have the evil descriptor, and is therefore not an evil spell, I don't see why a mundane poison would.

Matt Thompson
wagnert
02-03-06, 12:57 PM I have noticed that the PrC Scorpion Heritor is a core PrC, I think due its abilities that grant the character use of Con draining poison (which is an evil act) it should be moved to NPC only.

Aikan
I've already been slapped about this. Scorpion Heritor does not show up in the valid Core Prestige Class table (or NPC or Restricted) and thus is Limited by default.
zigspatty
02-03-06, 01:26 PM Scorpion Heritor does not show up in the valid Core Prestige Class table (or NPC or Restricted) and thus is Limited by default.

Yes, it is limited. But it is available to Bright Sands characters, if you check the Blight on Bright Sands Sourcebook, p. 3.

Patty
Aikan
02-06-06, 12:48 AM I've already been slapped about this. Scorpion Heritor does not show up in the valid Core Prestige Class table (or NPC or Restricted) and thus is Limited by default.

When I posted it was definately under core as I checked it twice to make sure then looked up sandstorm to make sure I had the right PrC, just went back to it and its not listed any longer so either I was dreamin it or they moved it either way I guess we will find out on release. :confused:

Aikan
Iswald
02-06-06, 08:54 AM Quote:
Poison and disease are generally the tools of evil monsters and characters, implements of corruption and destruction. Using poison that deals ability damage is an evil act because it causes undue suffering in the process of incapacitating or killing an opponent. Of the poisons described in the DMG, only one is acceptable for good characters to use: oil of taggit.

Generally, as there are exceptions... Scorpion Heritor apparently being one of them. Perhaps I should put it this way. There are many ways to inflict ability damage onto an opponent. Poison is just one of them. Mages do it with ray of enfeeblement. Rogues and others (including justiciars, have to be lawful) can do it with crippling strike. Anyone can use a wounding weapon. Monks can take a feat to drop a target's strength. There are techniques to cripple a victim's speed. Scorpion Heritors are simply emulating the natural ability of scorpions. Scorpions are neither evil nor good.

While using poison may be underhanded. It shouldn't really matter. Afterall, you're hacking, bludgeoning, blasting or using other usual and unnatural things to creatures to kill them. Isn't it more merciful to make deaths quick? Shouldn't you be using poison more to lessen their pain?
You bring an interesting argument. The fact that characters from the Bright Lands don't depend from a region (and thus a triad) but from "core" rulership could - in a way - protect them from such a penality.
Instead of worrying about the region the character is from, shouldn't you be worrying about the region the player is from or is playing in at the time?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aikan 02-03-06, 03:23 AM	I have noticed that the PrC Scorpion Heritor is a core PrC, I think due its abilities that grant the character use of Con draining poison (which is an evil act) it should be moved to NPC only. Aikan
redgamer 02-03-06, 03:31 AM	It works because some (possibly most) people don't think posion is inherently evil. I will not argue whose right or wrong. It certaintly is something players of said character have to deal with. It works however because only triads can penalize you for having an evil character so all a player would have to do was find his or her triads stance on the issue not nessacarily ever judge they might possible play with. Wounding weapons, curses, poison (the spell) contagion, posions buyable by PCs and other LG legal spells, items, and IIRC feats give the ability to damage someones con.
Britt 02-03-06, 03:32 AM	Could you reference something for the evil act bit? I was going to stay away as I thought this could degenerate into an unrelated argument like the other thread, but after thinking about it, it's directly on-point. AFAIK, there is nothing that says using poison is an evil act. I think this is a holdover from old editions that does not exist in 3.x. Granted, I wouldn't use it with my paladin, but I wouldn't immediately want to smite someone for using it either.
Mortepierre 02-03-06, 03:40 AM	BoED (p.34): Poison and disease are generally the tools of evil monsters and characters, implements of corruption and destruction. Using poison that deals ability damage is an evil act because it causes undue suffering in the process of incapacitating or killing an opponent. Of the poisons described in the DMG, only one is acceptable for good characters to use: oil of taggit.
Mortepierre 02-03-06, 03:43 AM	It works however because only triads can penalize you for having an evil character so all a player would have to do was find his or her triads stance on the issue not nessacarily ever judge they might possible play with. You bring an interesting argument. The fact that characters from the Bright Lands don't depend from a region (and thus a triad) but from "core" rulership could - in a way - protect them from such a penality.
Britt 02-03-06, 03:55 AM	Thanks for the reference, Mortepierre. Though I don't agree with it, at least it's a reference :) An interesting point is raised by the passage. If poison is evil because it causes undue suffering, then a poison that does not cause undue suffering need not be evil. The passage assumes that anything that does ability damage causes suffering, but that seems to me to be incorrect. There are many poisons in history that did not cause pain as they worked their magic. Anyways, that's not really important for the LGCS. Back on point, you can commit evil acts in LG, you just can't "cross the line into true corruption" or one day you'll turn around and see "we three," the Triad there to take away your character ;) Channeling negative energy is an evil act, yet you are allowed to do so as a PC. So, you could use poison and not be an evil character.
Mortepierre 02-03-06, 04:07 AM	As a side note, I should add the BoED also states that the sleep-inducing poison of the drow can be used by a Good character (which is highly ironic)
Simpi 02-03-06, 04:29 AM	BoeD is not something we should look as campaign documentation, even if some items from it are in use. After all, we have regionals where you get poison access and Circle never said anything it not being allowed. I could not actually find a reference to characters using poison being an evil act in this LGCS draft or in 4.2 version. I personally remembered there was something about CON poison being evil but now I cannot find even that. Perhaps we can finally start giving access to decent poisons to PCs as well. S.H, the guy from Naerie
paigeoliver 02-03-06, 04:59 AM	You bring an interesting argument. The fact that characters from the Bright Lands don't depend from a region (and thus a triad) but from "core" rulership could - in a way - protect them from such a penality. You don't even need Bright Lands characters for that (since you can only have one of those). Just create characters from regions FAR away from you and you would never have a bit of interaction with any of the triad from your region. Although, I'll bet there are plenty of LG players out there who never have any Triad interaction anyway. People who play in nothing but home games would be a good example. But another example would just be regions that cover multiple states. For example Dyvers covers four HUGE states, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Nebraska. Three triad members means that at least one state doesn't even have a triad member at all.
haferka 02-03-06, 08:32 AM	I have noticed that the PrC Scorpion Heritor is a core PrC, I think due its abilities that grant the character use of Con draining poison (which is an evil act) it should be moved to NPC only. Aikan Bright sands characters also have access to the scorpion tail whip.. which has a single dose of poison.. As a side note... nothing says that it is a single dose.. so unless the DM you are playing with actually made you record that it was used... you could use it again and again... Just a flaw in the item description. Personally, I have never scored a crit with it yet... so I havnt used my poison.. but If I do, I plan to buy a new whip. I'll prob just rip the scorpion tail from the end of the whip, and call it a standard whip. (albeit a very expensive whip)
Arvagor 02-03-06, 10:59 AM	As a side note, I should add the BoED also states that the sleep-inducing poison of the drow can be used by a Good character (which is highly ironic)Actually that whole BoED section is ironic, because it says "poison is evil", but then basically says, "Don't worry about it! Use these instead -- we call them ravages, they do the exact same thing as poisons, but they're not evil!" :uh-huh: I guess because of the illustration used (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75036.jpg), and the fact that the beholder looks stoned out of his eyes, that we're supposed to understand that he's not really in pain. But I digress... ;) I'd like a more definitive answer as well -- I will admit partly because I have a character (a druid) who has (through indirect side-effect of the choice of modules played with him) evolved into somebody who sees poison as a natural weapon; his animal companion is a medium viper, after all, so if his companion can use poison, why can't the character himself? Is it because the PC is intelligent/sentient, and therefore "knows" that poison is wrong? Although I want an answer, I seriously doubt the Circle wants to give one, because it generally evolves back into a moral debate (which is not what the LGCS is here for)
rook1138 02-03-06, 12:45 PM	peronsonally, I'm generally under the idea that, in a magical world, poison is no more evil a substance than a fireball. The only difference, a commoner can potentially use poison to not be totally screwed when protecting his farm from an evil fighter or something (well, provided he hits the fighter...and the fighter fails his save...and the poison debilitates him enough so he doesn't kill the peasant in 1 hit...). If this was a no/really low magic world, we'd have cause for concern. Since it's not, I don't really see the problem, especially considering the amount of things with high fort saves, immunity or resistance to poison, and the so called "good poisons" from BoED that someone pointed out, and the poisons that work on undead in LM, and so on, and so forth... Also, especially considering there is the Poison Spell. the save isn't even off the spell level, but half the caster level, so can get pretty bad at higher levels, and is 1d10/1d10 con. If that doesn't have the evil descriptor, and is therefore not an evil spell, I don't see why a mundane poison would. Matt Thompson
wagnert 02-03-06, 12:57 PM	I have noticed that the PrC Scorpion Heritor is a core PrC, I think due its abilities that grant the character use of Con draining poison (which is an evil act) it should be moved to NPC only. Aikan I've already been slapped about this. Scorpion Heritor does not show up in the valid Core Prestige Class table (or NPC or Restricted) and thus is Limited by default.
zigspatty 02-03-06, 01:26 PM	Scorpion Heritor does not show up in the valid Core Prestige Class table (or NPC or Restricted) and thus is Limited by default. Yes, it is limited. But it is available to Bright Sands characters, if you check the Blight on Bright Sands Sourcebook, p. 3. Patty
Aikan 02-06-06, 12:48 AM	I've already been slapped about this. Scorpion Heritor does not show up in the valid Core Prestige Class table (or NPC or Restricted) and thus is Limited by default. When I posted it was definately under core as I checked it twice to make sure then looked up sandstorm to make sure I had the right PrC, just went back to it and its not listed any longer so either I was dreamin it or they moved it either way I guess we will find out on release. :confused: Aikan
Iswald 02-06-06, 08:54 AM	Quote: Poison and disease are generally the tools of evil monsters and characters, implements of corruption and destruction. Using poison that deals ability damage is an evil act because it causes undue suffering in the process of incapacitating or killing an opponent. Of the poisons described in the DMG, only one is acceptable for good characters to use: oil of taggit. Generally, as there are exceptions... Scorpion Heritor apparently being one of them. Perhaps I should put it this way. There are many ways to inflict ability damage onto an opponent. Poison is just one of them. Mages do it with ray of enfeeblement. Rogues and others (including justiciars, have to be lawful) can do it with crippling strike. Anyone can use a wounding weapon. Monks can take a feat to drop a target's strength. There are techniques to cripple a victim's speed. Scorpion Heritors are simply emulating the natural ability of scorpions. Scorpions are neither evil nor good. While using poison may be underhanded. It shouldn't really matter. Afterall, you're hacking, bludgeoning, blasting or using other usual and unnatural things to creatures to kill them. Isn't it more merciful to make deaths quick? Shouldn't you be using poison more to lessen their pain? You bring an interesting argument. The fact that characters from the Bright Lands don't depend from a region (and thus a triad) but from "core" rulership could - in a way - protect them from such a penality. Instead of worrying about the region the character is from, shouldn't you be worrying about the region the player is from or is playing in at the time?