Post/Author/DateTime	Post
movieholic 04-09-06, 12:08 PM	Question: If a creature has cover, and a player buys 50 arrows with the seeking ability, does the -4 from cover normally applied be negated? By comparing and contrasting the various forms of cover and concealment a most delicious argument can be made for either side as to whether or not the seeking arrows can hit. My argument would be that if you bought seeking arrows, NO SITUATION could arise where the enemy would gain any bonus because my magical arrows seek him or her out as long as i point to the square where i feel the person is at. I would like to know if the rules support this and your personal actions as to dealing with this or enemies who snipe...thanks...newbie marshal considering all tactics References: ------------ Magic Weapon Special Ability and Descriptions: SEEKING: --- Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability. The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. (The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.) Strong Divination; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, true seeing, Price +1 Bonus Dungeon Masters Guide, 3.5 rules, Page 225, word for word ------------ Cover: --- Any barrier between an attacker and defender. Such a barrier can be an object, a creature, or a magical force. Cover grants the defender a bonus to Armor Class. Players Handbook, 3.5 rules, Page 306, word for word ------------- Concealment: --- Something that prevents an attacker from clearly seeing his or her target. Concealment creates a chance that an otherwise successful attack misses (a miss chance). Players Handbook, 3.5 rules, Page 306, word for word --------------
Samwise 04-09-06, 12:48 PM	An AC modifier is not a miss chance. Seeking arrows only eliminate miss chances, no matter their source. It says nothing about AC modifiers.
kenobi65 04-09-06, 01:00 PM	I agree with Samwise. The seeking property overcomes concealment, but not cover, which D&D treats as two completely different rules mechanics. Concealment confers a miss chance (and, thus, is overcome by the seeking property), while cover simply adds to AC, and does not confer a miss chance.
movieholic 04-09-06, 02:44 PM	Why does a seeking arrow miss? if a player fires a magical seeking arrow, it would seem logical that the arrow would hit because its a magical arrow, with a magical property that makes it hit all the time, and this is on all the time no matter where the person is, or runs to, or ducks behind. :) D and D seems to treat the target as having either cover, or concealment, or none of the above: given these 3 choices...why does being one hit and another doesnt? it seems to be a DM call... but i can find no rule to support either point, always hit or maybe hit/miss, other then what i infer from the spirit of the rules and how i read them which appears that seeking arrows lock on and chase down a target and always get their man/woman/it/thing/construct/ etc your thoughts please? your rebuttal? to learn is greater than any win imaginable michael
Samwise 04-09-06, 07:37 PM	your thoughts please? your rebuttal? to learn is greater than any win imaginable Rebuttal: If you extend that logic, then a seeking arrow should also ignore deflection and dodge bonuses, which cause misses. And then deny Dexterity bonuses, and also claim Sneak Attack and similar damage. After that, we may as well as eliminate everything else, including armor bonuses. You even suggest this here: Why does a seeking arrow miss? if a player fires a magical seeking arrow, it would seem logical that the arrow would hit because its a magical arrow, with a magical property that makes it hit all the time, and this is on all the time no matter where the person is, or runs to, or ducks behind. Since the text clearly indicates an attack roll is still needed and that the arrows do not hit automatically, it should be obvious that such reasoning can not be true. The seeking power ignores miss chances, such as from concealment. An AC bonus, such as from cover, is not a miss chance. The seeking power does not let you hit automatically.
Sieylianna 04-09-06, 07:38 PM	Why does a seeking arrow miss? if a player fires a magical seeking arrow, it would seem logical that the arrow would hit because its a magical arrow, with a magical property that makes it hit all the time, and this is on all the time no matter where the person is, or runs to, or ducks behind. :) Because a seeking arrow is not an arrow of guaranteed hitting. You still need to roll well enough to strike your opponent (which is made more difficult by cover). Otherwise, it would be substantially higher than a +1 bonus. All seeking does is negate the miss chance if your opponent is invisible, blinking, displaced, etc. Ed
Rawveggie 04-11-06, 11:55 PM	It is also worth pointing out, because of some confusion that more than a few judges/players have about miss chances, that Seeking does not help in rolling against incorporeal creatures. Many believe that the 50% "miss" chance that incorporeal undead have is, in fact, and actual miss chance when in fact it is not. The 50% chance to hit undead is a special condition of the incorporeal subtype and it is a "chance to ignore damage from a corporeal source", not a miss chance. From the SRD, under the Incorporeal Subtype: "Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons)." Emphasis added. Note, there is no mention of a "miss" chance as that term is used for concealment and other effects. -Raw