Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZirkaIII 03-19-08, 09:08 AM	Just wanted to run this by the board and see what everyone thought. 1) Cast Fire Trap on many (as many as you like) stoppered vials (PHB pg128, 1gp, 1/10 pound). 2) Cast Servant Horde (SpC pg. 182) (LG Open Spell). 3) Give the Fire Trapped vials to the servants. 4) Have them surround a target and open the vials (they are not authorized by you to open them, so the Fire Trap goes off). 5) Cooked opponent. What do y'all think?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-19-08, 12:29 PM	Just wanted to run this by the board and see what everyone thought. 1) Cast Fire Trap on many (as many as you like) stoppered vials (PHB pg128, 1gp, 1/10 pound). 2) Cast Servant Horde (SpC pg. 182) (LG Open Spell). 3) Give the Fire Trapped vials to the servants. 4) Have them surround a target and open the vials (they are not authorized by you to open them, so the Fire Trap goes off). 5) Cooked opponent. What do y'all think? Well it'd work, but there is the 25gp cost per fire trap...It's like a complicated and expensive Fire Seeds rip off, except Fire Trap does less damage per trap and allows SR....
UMiskatonic 03-19-08, 03:48 PM	You could always firetrap an alchemists' fire. They go off when you open the bag, so it's legal. More damage, but more expense as well. It would be interesting to see how this compared to scribing a scroll of flamestrike in terms of damage and cost.
UMiskatonic 03-19-08, 03:49 PM	Personally, I think the tanglefoot bag is the item that calls out "Fire trap me". I mean, you're potentially stuck there, and on fire. Even if the damage isn't amazing, it's got to be demoralizing.
Ramacass 03-19-08, 11:02 PM	Personally, I think the tanglefoot bag is the item that calls out "Fire trap me". I mean, you're potentially stuck there, and on fire. Even if the damage isn't amazing, it's got to be demoralizing. I don't think tangle foot bag works. Fire trap says that the item must "be opened"(which is the passive for "someone must open") not break open. Plus unseen servants don't get attacks-ever.
Ramacass 03-19-08, 11:08 PM	You could always firetrap an alchemists' fire. They go off when you open the bag, so it's legal. More damage, but more expense as well. It would be interesting to see how this compared to scribing a scroll of flamestrike in terms of damage and cost. scribing a scroll of flame strike(druid) 350gp 28xp 7d6 average damage 24 save DC 16 fire trap unseen servant cheese 14 fire traps level 7 350gp 14d4 +98, average damage 133 hmmmmmm?
Ramacass 03-19-08, 11:10 PM	Well it'd work, but there is the 25gp cost per fire trap...It's like a complicated and expensive Fire Seeds rip off, except Fire Trap does less damage per trap and allows SR.... Except fire trap has a duration of "until discharged" so you can prep before the boss fight and still have all your spell slots available when you get there.
Ramacass 03-19-08, 11:12 PM	I want to know how unseen servents function on a combat map? Can they share spaces with other creatures? with eachother? does ordering them to open their viles of fiery death take a standard action?
UMiskatonic 03-20-08, 07:59 PM	We'd all like to know this. Sad thing, there's room for more than one interpretation.
UMiskatonic 03-20-08, 08:02 PM	I don't think tangle foot bag works. Fire trap says that the item must "be opened"(which is the passive for "someone must open") not break open. Well, unseen servants aside, I think there's room for grammatical debate. If I drop a potion bottle of a cliff, and it shatters, it's certainly no longer closed. So, does opened mean 'opened normally' or does it mean 'opened in any fashion whatsoever'? I think there's room for more than one opinion there, and I'm sticking with mine. You probably still disagree, that's cool.
Ramacass 03-20-08, 11:24 PM	Well, unseen servants aside, I think there's room for grammatical debate. If I drop a potion bottle of a cliff, and it shatters, it's certainly no longer closed. So, does opened mean 'opened normally' or does it mean 'opened in any fashion whatsoever'? I think there's room for more than one opinion there, and I'm sticking with mine. You probably still disagree, that's cool. I'm all for difference of opinion UMiskatonic and am glad to see to people debate without a flame war. However to use the bottle dropped off a cliff example, I would say that the bottle was neither "open" nor "closed", it was "broken" I know I know semantics. However, I think it goes to intent, the spell is designed as a trap to stop people from going through you stuff, and thus I think requires someone opening something. If just throwing a glass vile and having it break counts for opening it, I'd ask "who opened it"
MwaO 03-21-08, 12:26 PM	There's a problem with spirit of the rules here - you've got a whole bunch of servants moving at the same time and then opening up not perfectly identical stoppered vials at the same time. i.e. they all move up at the same time, but they're extremely unlikely to open them up to the point of triggering at precisely the same time. Which is to say, the first servant might kill several or all of the servants. Yes, I know technically, it all happens at exactly the same time, but most of the time in the rule books, the rules are assuming that an action doesn't require impossible precision in timing. You can't, as an example, Ready to hit someone at the exact same moment someone else hits them. Your attack by definition will happen either right before or right after. And I think this is a variation on Ready. I think the more logical version is how Fire Seeds is typically used - you hand someone the Firetrapped vials, make sure he has Evasion and/or Fire Resistance, and let him pull them all out at once with string or something similar
JamesMaissen 03-22-08, 12:28 AM	Yes, I know technically, it all happens at exactly the same time, but most of the time in the rule books, the rules are assuming that an action doesn't require impossible precision in timing. I'm sorry why do all the servants act in unison? Visions of synchronized swimming aside, there are lots of problems here.. But then again this is just a variant on the multiple explosive runes gimmick. -James
Newpaintbrush 04-05-08, 03:07 PM	Just wanted to run this by the board and see what everyone thought. 1) Cast Fire Trap on many (as many as you like) stoppered vials (PHB pg128, 1gp, 1/10 pound). 2) Cast Servant Horde (SpC pg. 182) (LG Open Spell). 3) Give the Fire Trapped vials to the servants. 4) Have them surround a target and open the vials (they are not authorized by you to open them, so the Fire Trap goes off). 5) Cooked opponent. What do y'all think? I think I'd cast Invisibility on the stoppered vials, and I think it might take a while to prepare all those Fire Trap spells which you might not have in any one particular mod, so you'd have to bring the vials from one adventure to another and should therefore have your DM sign off on any vials you create (note that if doing so, you should present your DM with a spell list of spells memorized if you're a wizard because NOT doing so would be very suspicious considering the number of spell slots you need to devote to setting up the trap). Apart from that, DMs could house rule an issue over the timing of the spell (particularly since AoE kills the servant horde and fire trap is AoE), using page 136 of the Player's Handbook as justification. (i.e. players can't have the same initiative count for an Initiative check, although I personally believe they CAN act simultaneously when a readied action triggers although some DMs may not agree). So you should clear it with your DM at the table first to see if the DM will allow it or not. Personally, I think it's entirely legal (including possible issues with initiative), and although I think it's pretty cheesy, I don't have any real objection to cheese so long as it's entirely clear and legal. Because you're doing a lot of damage for a low cost, though, I am sure there will be objections, so be sure to consult your DM.