Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clannagh 07-23-07, 07:54 PM	Assuming you have combat reflexes and a high dex: - if someone you threaten shoots as a full round action and has iterative attacks can you get multiple AoO - if someone you threaten shoots as a full round action and uses rapid shot can you get multiple AoO
KShaver 07-23-07, 08:09 PM	Assuming you have combat reflexes and a high dex: - if someone you threaten shoots as a full round action and has iterative attacks can you get multiple AoO - if someone you threaten shoots as a full round action and uses rapid shot can you get multiple AoO No to both, you can only get one attack of opportunity per type of AoO provoking action. Which means if they shot and performed some other action, like moving out of a threatened square, then you could make another attack of opportunity.
Iswald 07-23-07, 10:20 PM	The answer should probably be yes. Each attack is considered separate. If you only get one AoO, that would be similiar to saying that a PC with close quarters fighting would be able to fend off one grapple attempt and then not the second. Obviously, given that you have two responses and they disagree, you'll find some table variation.
Howie23 07-23-07, 10:39 PM	No to both, you can only get one attack of opportunity per type of AoO provoking action. Which means if they shot and performed some other action, like moving out of a threatened square, then you could make another attack of opportunity. My understanding is that the answer to the questions is yes. You only get one AoO per provoking action, but there is no limit associated with the type of action; movement in a turn being a single provoking action regardless of the number of squares. Not that this proves anything, but I play an archer as my primary, and have taken the multiple AoO in a multiple attack sequence. I hadn't thought about it ahead of time, the DM explained it and gave me the option of reconsidering, and it makes sense once you think about it. I also have a guy w/Combat Reflexes, and have delivered the AoO on the other side of the decision. David
clannagh 07-23-07, 10:55 PM	My understanding is that the answer to the questions is yes. You only get one AoO per provoking action, but there is no limit associated with the type of action; movement in a turn being a single provoking action regardless of the number of squares. Not that this proves anything, but I play an archer as my primary, and have taken the multiple AoO in a multiple attack sequence. I hadn't thought about it ahead of time, the DM explained it and gave me the option of reconsidering, and it makes sense once you think about it. I also have a guy w/Combat Reflexes, and have delivered the AoO on the other side of the decision. David That is the gist of my question. I have often seen it played that with combat reflexes only the first opportunity of a particular type provokes .. but I cannot find anywhere that the rules actually state that.
KShaver 07-24-07, 08:41 AM	That is the gist of my question. I have often seen it played that with combat reflexes only the first opportunity of a particular type provokes .. but I cannot find anywhere that the rules actually state that. The best I can find in the SRD is in regards to movement: Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. Now the question is: Why does moving out of multiple squares only give one chance for an AoO? The answer is because it is an action that can provoke an attack of opportunity, not a portion of an action. Since it is the action itself provoking, then only one AoO can be made. It applies the same to ranged attacks. You only get one AoO for someone making multiple ranged attacks because taking multiple ranged attacks is a single action that provokes an AoO (albeit a full round action). Actually if you read the chart carefully in the SRD it shows that making a ranged attack as a standard action provokes an AoO, but firing as a full round action does not? :confused:
bitznarf 07-24-07, 09:46 AM	The chart does not take into account iterative attacks, nor things like rapid shot, TWF or flurry.
mregecko 07-24-07, 10:08 AM	I have to disagree with some people here... I think multiple shots would provoke multiple attacks, despite them being of the "same type" of AoO. A classic trick for wizards at high level is to Shapechange into a creature with the Quickness SU so that they can use two standard-actions per round. Would you rule that casting two spells in a round can only provoke once, because they are the "same type" of AoO? I realize this is moot in LG because of level caps and widespread Polymorph school bannings, but as a thought experiment I think it's pertinent somewhat. -- Gecko
bitznarf 07-24-07, 10:19 AM	Right, provoking from movement is the exception, not the rule.
KShaver 07-24-07, 02:16 PM	I have to disagree with some people here... I think multiple shots would provoke multiple attacks, despite them being of the "same type" of AoO. I may have said same type of action in my first post, but the second one I made clarifies that I'm arguing same action, not same type of action. This is how the chart is set up in the PHB and the SRD on what provokes. Making multiple ranged attacks is one action, so it can only provoke once. A classic trick for wizards at high level is to Shapechange into a creature with the Quickness SU so that they can use two standard-actions per round. Would you rule that casting two spells in a round can only provoke once, because they are the "same type" of AoO? I have to admit I've never heard of this ability, it sounds like 3.0 haste. Either way, multiple actions can result from multiple AoOs, so this ability could provoke more than normal.
mregecko 07-24-07, 02:46 PM	I may have said same type of action in my first post, but the second one I made clarifies that I'm arguing same action, not same type of action. This is how the chart is set up in the PHB and the SRD on what provokes. Making multiple ranged attacks is one action, so it can only provoke once. Ahh, that I find more convincing... I'd have to read more about it I think, but that's definitely something to think about. Sorry I missed your clarifying post. I have to admit I've never heard of this ability, it sounds like 3.0 haste. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm Is the classic example of a creature with the ability. -- Gecko
KarmaInferno 07-24-07, 03:05 PM	The chart does not take into account iterative attacks, nor things like rapid shot, TWF or flurry. They're all each Full-Round Actions. One triggering Action, regardless of the type, one AoO. -karma
Rawveggie 07-24-07, 03:50 PM	They're all each Full-Round Actions. One triggering Action, regardless of the type, one AoO. -karma For what it's worth I agree with this reasoning. One AoO per action. Period. -Raw
bitznarf 07-24-07, 03:53 PM	And yet each of those full round actions is full of other smaller actions. Like the attack action. Or attack with a ranged weapon in melee action.
KarmaInferno 07-24-07, 04:27 PM	No, an "Attack" Action is a type of Standard Action. Entirely different than a Full Round Action. A ranged attack mixed in with your melee attacks is a Full Attack Action, which is a type of Full Round Action. "Action" is rigidly defined in D&D 3.5. There are Full Round Actions, Standard Actions, Move Actions, Swift Actions, Free Actions, Not An Actions, etc. If you are making more than one ATTACK inside an Action, it is generally a Full Round Action. A given Action can generally trigger an AoO only once from single opponent, regardless of how many attacks or other activities are contained within that action. Exceptions to this are always spelled out specifically. -karma
KShaver 07-24-07, 04:43 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm Is the classic example of a creature with the ability. -- Gecko Interesting, and borken. Looks like an ability that was overlooked during the change from 3.0 to 3.5.
JamesMaissen 07-24-07, 06:29 PM	They're all each Full-Round Actions. One triggering Action, regardless of the type, one AoO. -karma No. There's no such rule. A character making a full attack action and electing to try to start (non-improved) grapples will provoke for each attempt, and being damaged by them will automatically fail to establish a hold. There is no 'full round' grapple attack, rather there is the grapple attempt that can take the place of one of your BAB based attacks. Without the feat, this attempt provokes regardless of the number of times you have provoked so far in the round. The only exception to this is movement. And that's spelled out. -James
Some_call_me_Tim 07-24-07, 07:03 PM	They're all each Full-Round Actions. One triggering Action, regardless of the type, one AoO. The really odd thing is that on Table 8-2 Actions in Combat under Full Attack states there is no AoO. :confused: The argument could be made that, no you don't get multiple AoO's because full attacks don't provoke, in fact you don't get any AoO's. Footnote seven says that disarm, trip, and grapple are treated as separate melee attacks that provoke but there is no such entry noted for attack (ranged). It seems that a literal rules-as-written approach is no AoO at all for a full attack using a ranged weapon. Reductio ad absurdum However, it appears that based on disarm, trip and grapple, the intent was each action itself would provoke and that is the way I would rule it. Each ranged attack is a distracting act that provokes. So an AoO for each shot regardless of if it is due to high base attack bonus or the rapid shot feat.
KarmaInferno 07-24-07, 07:07 PM	Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square. Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot-step and the withdraw action (see below). Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity. I repeat, an Action is a defined quality. AoOs are triggered on Movement or Actions. Exceptions to this are always specifically spelled out. In both the OP's examples the shooter is using an AoO-provoking Full-Round Action. The AoO is not going off on the individual attacks in the action, but on the action itself. -karma
Some_call_me_Tim 07-24-07, 07:30 PM	In both the OP's examples the shooter is using an AoO-provoking Full-Round Action. The AoO is not going off on the individual attacks in the action, but on the action itself.But table 8-2 in the PHB clearly states that the full attack action DOES NOT provoke. If the full attack does not provoke by itself then it must be the individual attacks that make up the full attack action that do, which means it draws multiple AoO's.
jstorrie 07-24-07, 08:18 PM	A full attack does not provoke by itself, but a full attack which is ranged does. It's not the individual ranged attacks that are responsible; it's that you're using some of the full attack with a ranged weapon. One full attack is one action is one AoO.
lseelba 07-24-07, 08:33 PM	But the EXCEPTION to the rule about attacks of opportunities is what this thread is about. Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus. The language above makes no reference to 'actions' so whether a full attack action is a single 'action' or made up of individual 'actions' is a moot point. The question should be whether a full attack action using only ranged attacks constitutes more than one 'opportunity'. Sadly the rules do not address this anywhere, so you are left with table variation. Personally I count each ranged attack as a separate opportunity. Also please note that it is not always 'actions' that provoke AoOs. You can provoke without ever taking an action. Classic examples are being bullrushed past enemies, or being moved while grappled. In neither instance have you took an 'action', but you still take AoOs. This is further proof that the current discussion about 'actions' is the wrong one...and that rather we should be discussing whether multiple ranged attacks constitute multiple 'opportunities'. -Lou
BlackNova169 07-25-07, 11:05 AM	I would have to say each attack would provoke. The example given above is when a person does a 'full round action' to grapple twice w/o Imp. Grapple. First grapple provokes and the attacker hits and stops the grapple. Now the attack tries his 2nd (weaker, but identical) grapple attempt...and this does NOT provoke? Of course it does, the attacker left himself open to counterattack twice. An archer is going to leave himself open each time he draws back to fire, if you think about it, standing straight with a bow pulled back doesn't give you much opportunity to dodge attacks.
thorinXXX 07-25-07, 01:31 PM	Check out this example from pg 62 of the FAQ: Is it possible for an attack of opportunity to provoke an attack of opportunity? For example, a fighter attempts to trip a cleric. The cleric chooses to make a sunder attack against the fighter’s weapon as his attack of opportunity. Does the sunder attack then provoke an attack of opportunity from the fighter? Yes. An attack of opportunity is adjudicated just like any other attack, and it is subject to the same rules (including provoking additional attacks of opportunity). This can lead to odd situations where as the reason for the original action no longer exists. If this starts to confuse you, just remember that D&D combat is an abstract representation of battle, and not necessarily a precise second-by-second representation of every maneuver. Even the “sequential” nature of D&D combat—I make my attacks, then you make your attacks, then I make my attacks, and so forth—is an artificial creation used to keep combat moving quickly. Using the example you provide, the fighter is indeed allowed to make an attack of opportunity against the cleric. (This attack could, in turn, provoke yet another attack of opportunity from the cleric, but the cleric could make such an attack only if he were allowed more than one attack of opportunity in a single round.) These attacks are performed in a “Last In, First Out” sequence. The last attack of opportunity declared is the first one resolved, with the remaining attacks resolved in reverse order of their declaration, assuming the character can still make the attack. If the fighter drops the cleric with his attack of opportunity, the rest of the attacks in the sequence—including the cleric’s attack of opportunity and the fighter’s original trip attack—do not occur. The actions are still “spent,” however— the fighter doesn’t get to use that original attack on some other target (although if he has other attacks remaining he may take them as normal). That certainly says 1 AOO per attack that generates an AOO.