Post/Author/DateTime	Post
amnuxoll 07-17-07, 09:46 PM	Can a PC with a smite ability from multiple sources (e.g., paladin + Destruction domain) use both smite abilities simultaneously? If so, do they stack? :AMN:
Puggle Halfwine 07-17-07, 10:19 PM	Yes and yes. They're both free actions and both untyped bonuses, so they can be used at the same time and stack.
copper_wyrmling 07-17-07, 10:56 PM	There's a rather odd FAQ entry that may apply to this - the question doesn't seem to have much to do with the answer, but the answer is pretty suggestive: Can any of these feats (Psionic Shot, Psionic Fist, Psionic Weapon) be attached to powers or spells? For example touch spells/powers/effects? Ranged touch spells/powers/effects? If so, what type of damage is it? In general, the rule of thumb for such things is that the most recent effect applied takes the place of any previous effect, unless specifically noted otherwise (such as the hunter of the dead’s smite undead ability, which is specifically noted to work with his smite evil ability on the same swing). But, a DM may decide to allow two effects to work together if it seems reasonable for her game, even if not specifically noted. (Emphasis mine. The feats cited in the question allow you to add untyped damage to an attack.) That said, because the FAQ entry is so unclear (seems to be answering a totally different question, and gives no guidance as to what constitutes a similar effect), smites still stack on my tables even when they don't say so specifically - but there is some evidence of intent that they weren't supposed to stack, if a GM wants to rule it that way.
JJeff 07-17-07, 11:23 PM	I feel that Smite is clearly not a free action. It is an action that allows you to make a melee attack with bonuses to hit or damage. It is not an ability which allows you to modify an existing melee attack (yes, there is a difference IMO) Abilities that modify an existing melee attack are those that say "When you make a melee attack, you can do XXX". Thus the declaration of the attack is the Smite, and not a melee attack which has the Smite ability tacked on. So you can't merge smites from difference sources since they would each be an attack by itself and not combine to modify a single attack. It's like trying to merge the Order of the Bow's Ranged Precision and Manyshot, both require a standard action to execute, but you can't say that you can merge them and do both with a single standard action. Or even better, you can't say you can cast & touch your opponent with a touch attack spell (standard action) and attack with Impr Unarmed strike (standard action) with the same action, right?
jstorrie 07-18-07, 01:41 AM	I allow Smites to stack at my table, unless they specifically state that they eat up a swift action.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-18-07, 01:54 AM	There's also the Tattooed Monk smite which requires a move action to activate before you make your attack.
lseelba 07-18-07, 03:02 AM	Supernatural Abilities (Su) Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is: 10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma). Smite Evil (Su) Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day. At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level. Destruction Domain Granted Power You gain the smite power, the supernatural ability to make a single melee attack with a +4 bonus on attack rolls and a bonus on damage rolls equal to your cleric level (if you hit). You must declare the smite before making the attack. This ability is usable once per day. Smite is a supernatural ability. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Nothing in the Paladin's Smite description, nor the Destruction Domain description, notes otherwise. Read as written, you couldn't even smite as part of a full attack action. If both are standard actions, its pretty clear that you can't make a double smite attack.
Wraith235 07-18-07, 03:42 AM	what about Smite Evil and Smite Unjust (from the Shadowbane inquisitor)
Jay_Ibero_911 07-18-07, 04:41 AM	You could combine 3 smites in one attack. Ordained Champion is swift to activate, Tattooed Monk is move action to activate, and destruction domain/paladin smite is standard. So you'd get and extr 8+Cha to attack, and some comibnation of levels of damage.
King Kashue 07-18-07, 08:07 AM	Smite is a supernatural ability. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Nothing in the Paladin's Smite description, nor the Destruction Domain description, notes otherwise. Read as written, you couldn't even smite as part of a full attack action. Except it is otherwise stated. You quoted the very section which does state that is it something other than a standard action. Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack (PHB p.44) Now, the cleric ability is a bit less clear, but it says "single attack", which is a type of action itself. Given it doesn't say "single attack as a standard/full round action", or something of the sort, considering it something else is not something I am anxious to do. However, it does suggest that smites cannot be combined.
zoinks69 07-18-07, 08:48 AM	I'm somewhat proud to say I've never even heard of this coming up (until this thread). Personally I'm of the opinion that if a PC wants to dump limited daily uses of an ability all at once, that's great -- 1. It means less uses later (or, that he saved them up for the BBEG prolonging the prior fights). 2. It means (generally) that he's made some class choices that are flavorful rather than rock'em sock'em, so he needs all the help he can get ;)
Shaudius 07-18-07, 10:28 AM	It is not at alll like abilities that require standard actions to activate, those require just that, standard actions. Smite attacks are imho classified as "not an action" in most cases. They are not free actions, and they aren't swift actions. They are bonuses that are applied that are unnamed that you can apply a specific number of times per day. I think your stance is akin to saying that you can't apply both weapon focus and weapon specialization to the same attack. Just because they are both continuous effects instead of ones that only occur a few times per day does not change the fact that they indeed stack. Also please remind me not to play online when you are judging my character with destruction domain, divine might, paladin smite, outcast champion avenging strike. I feel that Smite is clearly not a free action. It is an action that allows you to make a melee attack with bonuses to hit or damage. It is not an ability which allows you to modify an existing melee attack (yes, there is a difference IMO) Abilities that modify an existing melee attack are those that say "When you make a melee attack, you can do XXX". Thus the declaration of the attack is the Smite, and not a melee attack which has the Smite ability tacked on. So you can't merge smites from difference sources since they would each be an attack by itself and not combine to modify a single attack. It's like trying to merge the Order of the Bow's Ranged Precision and Manyshot, both require a standard action to execute, but you can't say that you can merge them and do both with a single standard action. Or even better, you can't say you can cast & touch your opponent with a touch attack spell (standard action) and attack with Impr Unarmed strike (standard action) with the same action, right?
lseelba 07-18-07, 05:21 PM	It is not at alll like abilities that require standard actions to activate, those require just that, standard actions. Smite attacks are imho classified as "not an action" in most cases. They are not free actions, and they aren't swift actions. They are bonuses that are applied that are unnamed that you can apply a specific number of times per day. I think your stance is akin to saying that you can't apply both weapon focus and weapon specialization to the same attack. Just because they are both continuous effects instead of ones that only occur a few times per day does not change the fact that they indeed stack. Also please remind me not to play online when you are judging my character with destruction domain, divine might, paladin smite, outcast champion avenging strike. Sorry I pointed out that Supernatural abilities are standard actions. I didn't make the rules. Though you might wish that Smite is 'not an action' there is nothing in the rules that state that. Also bringing up feats (which are not supernatural abilities) does nothing to bolster your argument. If the designers had wished Smite to be applied in place of a melee attack (ie in a full attack action or as an attack of opportunity), they should have stated so. Read the Ordained Champion smite supernatural ability. It is stated properly so that multiple smites can stack. None of the others are. -Lou
Jay_Ibero_911 07-18-07, 05:50 PM	Sorry I pointed out that Supernatural abilities are standard actions. I didn't make the rules. Though you might wish that Smite is 'not an action' there is nothing in the rules that state that. Also bringing up feats (which are not supernatural abilities) does nothing to bolster your argument. If the designers had wished Smite to be applied in place of a melee attack (ie in a full attack action or as an attack of opportunity), they should have stated so. Read the Ordained Champion smite supernatural ability. It is stated properly so that multiple smites can stack. None of the others are. -Lou The tattooed monk version can stack with the ordained champion and destruction domain too, as it is specifically a move action.
JJeff 07-18-07, 10:52 PM	Also please remind me not to play online when you are judging my character with destruction domain, divine might, paladin smite, outcast champion avenging strike. Hey... not need to get personal, right... Sheesh... So anyone wants to get an offical word in on this so that people don't think I'm a person that is making up my own rules?
Timlagor 07-19-07, 12:16 AM	I'm inclined to side with lseelba on this one. You can make 'one normal melee attack' as part of the standard action activation of the Smite ability. ..but I've never seen it played that way and don't feel inclined to buck the trend on it... "one normal attack" would seem to rule out charges though....
bitznarf 07-19-07, 12:46 AM	Why does it rule out a charge? "After moving, you may make a single melee attack." Where is the problem? Is a the attack after the movement portion of the charge not a 'normal attack' in your opinion? :rolleyes:
JJeff 07-19-07, 01:26 AM	I think it is because the Charge action is listed as a special action, not a "normal attack"... Just because it includes an attack in the special action doesn't make it a normal attack But that's really going rules lawyering....
boolean 07-19-07, 08:40 AM	The "Smite Evil is a standard action" position makes the Charging Smite variant from PHB2 unusable.
Eric Anondson 07-19-07, 03:10 PM	So anyone wants to get an offical word in on this so that people don't think I'm a person that is making up my own rules?I would love an official word. I have no faith we would get one though. WotC's official methods for clearing things that result in table variation are not often used to remedy rules that have table variation in LG. Good luck.