Post/Author/DateTime	Post
trollbill 06-04-07, 12:57 PM	I have a Scout archer who frequently moves 10 or more feet from his starting location and then Readies an action to shoot and take my skirmish damage. This seem perfectly legal within the rules, but I've had a couple of instances where judges said I couldn't do this. I have looked through various sources and certainly can't find anything in the rules that says I can't do this. Is there anything concrete I can show a judge to prove that I can do this.
Mommy was an Orc 06-04-07, 01:39 PM	I have a Scout archer who frequently moves 10 or more feet from his starting location and then Readies an action to shoot and take my skirmish damage. This seem perfectly legal within the rules, but I've had a couple of instances where judges said I couldn't do this. I have looked through various sources and certainly can't find anything in the rules that says I can't do this. Is there anything concrete I can show a judge to prove that I can do this. Hmm...actually, while initially I thought the DMs were badly misreading Skirmish, I have to say they're clearly correct(as in there should not be table variation on this) Skirmish: "The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the scout's turn." Ready: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." As your readied action goes off after your turn is over, you can't apply skirmish damage to it.
ShinAkuma2 06-04-07, 01:43 PM	It's right in the skirmish rules: She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet. Once you move 10 feet, your skirmish is active for the entire round.
Mommy was an Orc 06-04-07, 01:45 PM	It's right in the skirmish rules: Once you move 10 feet, your skirmish is active for the entire round. That's not quite what it says - "She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet. The extra damage only applies to attacks taken during the scout's turn." And the ready action clearly goes off according to the ready rules after your turn.
trollbill 06-04-07, 01:52 PM	Well, well. You learn something new every day. Glad I asked. Thank you, Mommy. Though I can't help but feel the concept of your Readied action not being part of your turn has some potentially ugly ramifications somewhere.
Mommy was an Orc 06-04-07, 01:57 PM	Well, well. You learn something new every day. Glad I asked. Thank you, Mommy. No problem - if it is any consolation, it affects one of my characters too - I've got a Scout tripper with combat reflexes and no more extra damage on AoOs. Not my favorite character by any means(he's 2nd level and I only bring him out when the party absolutely has to have someone who can serve a function on the frontline at APL 2)
ShinAkuma2 06-04-07, 05:54 PM	The extra damage only applies to attacks taken during the scout's turn. And the ready action clearly goes off according to the ready rules after your turn. Well, I suppose you're correct. It's just odd that the writer states one thing ("all attacks she makes during any round"), then immediately contradicts it.
LachlarlanIII 06-04-07, 06:12 PM	IMO, Scouts won't be super viable until the Greater Manyshot feat becomes available. Seeing as Greater Manyshot is from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, that'll never happen.
The_Jester 06-05-07, 11:08 AM	I think the intent was clarify that the skirmish damage applied to multiple attacks but didn't apply to later attacks that round not taken on your turn, such as attacks of opportunity. Readied actions are just a bystander caught in the crossfire.
Mithreinmaethor 06-05-07, 06:33 PM	Makes you wonder why Skirmish is a pre-req for Deadeye shot ? Since this feat allows you to ready and action to shoot at a creature hit by one of your allies, making that creature flat footed to you.
Mommy was an Orc 06-05-07, 06:54 PM	Makes you wonder why Skirmish is a pre-req for Deadeye shot ? Since this feat allows you to ready and action to shoot at a creature hit by one of your allies, making that creature flat footed to you. Why is Spring Attack a pre-req to Whirlwind? Your opponent being flat-footed isn't a huge advantage to someone with Skirmish in any case.
Gargoyle117 06-08-07, 04:52 PM	A quick side note on Skirmish: You may not use skirmish while mounted or riding in a vehicle. The 10' moved has to be under your own power. You must also end your movement 10' from where you started. This is distinctly different from moving 10', which could allow you to walk forwards 10' then backwards 10'. That is not a legal way to use skirmish. My primary (only) character is a level 7 Scout / Thief-Acrobat. I am all too painfully aware of the horrible wording of the skirmish ability and all the drawbacks. It seems overly restricted to me compared to Sneak Attack, but I still enjoy the scout class.
Frumpkis 06-12-07, 06:58 PM	You must also end your movement 10' from where you started. This is distinctly different from moving 10', which could allow you to walk forwards 10' then backwards 10'. That is not a legal way to use skirmish. Just reread the errata, and it appears you're right. One of my PC's is a scout/ranger mutt, and thus far he's been relying on the "5-foot-shuffle" (move forward 5', move back 5'....total distance moved = 10'). But it appears that's against the rules. *sigh* :(
Gargoyle117 06-13-07, 01:24 PM	At the con I just attended this weekend, the 5' shuffle seemed to be the norm. I would say that you should expect variation at the table. It's totally up to the GM. Were it me, I would allow skirmish so long as you move 10'+ and end up in a different square than you started. I would also alow the damage for your whole turn and or from mounted. Rogues seem to be able to get sneak attack almost constantly and their damage dice increase much more quickly than a scout's skirmish dice.
pedr 06-13-07, 01:38 PM	You can only do the 5' shuffle at tables where the GM is ignorant of the errata. Doing it if (now) you are aware of the errata is cheating. And I very seldom use the word, but this is a clear example of it.
Lupo 06-13-07, 02:56 PM	<snip> Rogues seem to be able to get sneak attack almost constantly and their damage dice increase much more quickly than a scout's skirmish dice. so the conclusion is "scouts are not as good as some people think they are" ;) and bending the rules at some tables doesn't make them better in general. :rolleyes: its just plain simple after some analysis of the game mechanics and comparison of sneak attack vs. skirmish attack. the very moment an additional attacks kicks in - TWF, iterative attack or haste - the sneak attack is the better choice and the additional attacks come into play mostly at higher APLs so skirmish loses its bite exactly then when one needs it. so taking scout and expecting LOADS of skirmish damage is a typical shiny booby trap, looks nice the first few levels - and that's it. ciao martin m.
Munchausen 06-13-07, 07:33 PM	Well.. looking at what makes a characters 'turn' i decided to look into thy players glossary.. Turn: The point in the round at which you take your action(s). On your tuen you may perform one or more actions, as dictated by your current circumstamces. Ok then I went ot see what a action was.. Action: A character activity. Actions are divided into the following categories, according to the time required to perform them (from most time required to the least),: Full round actions, Standard actions, Move actions and Free actions. So I wondered what a Ready action falls under.. and it says you can ready a standard, move or free action. Now of course if your ready a action and what triggers it never happens, then well.. nothing happens.. and you can still move up to your normal move and ready a action, its just you will not be able to move the 5' that a ready action normally gives since you already moved for that turn. So I would think that a Scout could ready a action and still get his skirmish ability IF his ready action does go off.. aka move 15' and say 'I will ready my action if the Half Orc draws his weapon I will then shoot'... and if the half orc draws his weapon then the ready action goes off.. if the half orc stands there and does nothing.. then the ready action dosent go off. And yeah i have known about the 5' shuffle bit.. and always knew that was wrong (still cant remember where i read that) and a few have tried that here in vegas.. told them about the no-no on the 5' shuffle rule.. so if someone could please point me in the right place so i will know where to point them in the future.. thanks. :)
pedr 06-13-07, 08:11 PM	I play a scout and had never considered that readying might negate skirmish. I think the intent is for the skirmish to apply to the regular attack(s) made by the character (usually just the one, due to the inability to take a full-round action attacking). Since the AC bonus lasts until the next time you act, it's logical that the damage bonus would apply even if you ready. The wording is intended to show that it doesn't apply on AoOs etc. Regarding where it's written that you can't do the 5' shuffle: it's in the Complete Adventurer errata, available on the WotC site.
Timlagor 06-13-07, 10:12 PM	I think I will continue to allow Skirmish damage on Readied actions unless and until it's made absolutely clear that I shouldn't.
trollbill 06-13-07, 10:43 PM	I think I will continue to allow Skirmish damage on Readied actions unless and until it's made absolutely clear that I shouldn't. Much though I don't like it, the rules Mommy pointed out seem pretty clear to me.
Mommy was an Orc 06-13-07, 10:49 PM	Much though I don't like it, the rules Mommy pointed out seem pretty clear to me. Yeah, I unfortunately have to say the same thing - my Scout is going Dervish, so it isn't a total loss, but I was expecting that my character would be able to back up away from his opponents and inflict Skirmish damage on them when they moved up to him. Not going to happen.
Gargoyle117 06-14-07, 10:56 AM	I just find it crazy in general that Skirnish is so limited. It takes almost nothing for a Rogue to 5' step into a flanking position and take a full attack, every swing with sneak attack on it. Sneak attack is easier to use and causes more damage. I really do love skirmish and the dynamic it brings to the battlefield, especially with the 10' rule from the erata. My problem is that the damage really does not last for the whole round as stated in the CAdv book and that you can not use it while mounted. I take improved skirmish with my scout, just for the extra damage and fun from moving 20' in a round. It gets quite difficult to do in confined spaces, but it makes you think. Maybe we will be lucky and see some Skirmish improvements in the rules compendium. One can always hope for the best. :D
Sieylianna 06-14-07, 12:25 PM	I just find it crazy in general that Skirnish is so limited. It takes almost nothing for a Rogue to 5' step into a flanking position and take a full attack, every swing with sneak attack on it. Sneak attack is easier to use and causes more damage. Sneak attack isn't easier to use, your opponent must be denied his dexterity. You can always get skirmish damage, provided there is room to move 10'. Ed
trollbill 06-14-07, 01:45 PM	Sneak attack isn't easier to use, your opponent must be denied his dexterity. You can always get skirmish damage, provided there is room to move 10'. Ed In melee, its a little easier to do Sneak Attack damage than Skirmish. As a ranged attack Skirmish is much easier to arrange. The big advantage Sneak Attack has is that it is possible to use it on more than one attack a round. The best you could do with Skirmish is to combine it with Many-shot. I will say the Swift Hunter feat helps out a lot. Now Skirmishers can Skirmish undead, constructs, plants, elementals and oozes without near the investment a Sneak Attacker would have to use to do that.
Mommy was an Orc 06-14-07, 02:01 PM	In melee, its a little easier to do Sneak Attack damage than Skirmish. As a ranged attack Skirmish is much easier to arrange. The big advantage Sneak Attack has is that it is possible to use it on more than one attack a round. The best you could do with Skirmish is to combine it with Many-shot. I will say the Swift Hunter feat helps out a lot. Now Skirmishers can Skirmish undead, constructs, plants, elementals and oozes without near the investment a Sneak Attacker would have to use to do that. A couple of other interesting feats are Two Weapon Pounce and Bounding Assault from PHB II. That gets you more attacks in a move.
Gargoyle117 06-14-07, 03:40 PM	Don't forget that Sneak Attack works when the rogue is flanking as well. Flanking is a fairly regular occurence, especially with larger monsters.
ithardin 06-16-07, 02:32 AM	Maybe they should have called the class "Guerilla" instead of "Scout." Thanks for the clarifications, as a frequent DM and a player who has a 2nd level Ranger/Scout it is much appreciated. Ian
Morrick 06-27-07, 01:03 AM	I want to offer an argument about the readied-action and how it relates to skirmish. I also want to explain my additional argument on behalf of the ruling toward Attacks of Opportunity. It is my belief, based on the definitions set down in the Players Handbook, a readied-action is a declared choice to effectively split your round actions into two parts. The second action in the chain is merely triggered by an activity as defined by “action” that you declare and clear with the DM. In doing so, you effectively alter your round location in the initiative order, where it will fall into a slot immediately preceding the PC or NPC whose activity triggered it. Additionally you risk loosing the action slot if the triggering activity does not occur. You do not, however loose your initiative position in the event of a failed readied action. You are therefore fulfilling the requirement of a skirmish ability by acting on your own round. Attacks of Opportunity are different then readied-actions because they are an additional melee attack action that only occurs on your opponent’s round. They are triggered by specific standard and movement actions of your opponent as dictated by very specific circumstances. It is an action in and of itself. For this reason it does not fulfill the skirmish requirements. I feel that ultimately the choice as to whether skirmish can apply to a readied action or not is a subjective opinion and not an objective one. I have not seen an official ruling on this point issued by and only by a WoC entity in the form of article, blog, memo, forum posting etc. If there is please let me know. I would like to read it.
Mommy was an Orc 06-27-07, 09:47 AM	I want to offer an argument about the readied-action and how it relates to skirmish. I also want to explain my additional argument on behalf of the ruling toward Attacks of Opportunity. It is my belief, based on the definitions set down in the Players Handbook, a readied-action is a declared choice to effectively split your round actions into two parts. This really doesn't need clarification from WotC. Skirmish only applies to attacks taken during your turn. Your turn is over. From PHB: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." As both Trollbill and I have noted, we both have Scouts negatively affected by this. I'd be much happier if I could agree with you.
JamesMaissen 06-27-07, 05:12 PM	From PHB: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." As both Trollbill and I have noted, we both have Scouts negatively affected by this. I'd be much happier if I could agree with you. So does this deny certain uses of other feats that need to be done on your action, or the like? For example, let's consider the Dodge feat. Could one ready to attack the next enemy through the door and make them the dodge target? Likewise could one ready to 'Power attack for full and attack X when it gets within reach'? Or would one have to declare 'Power attack for full' and then ready 'to attack X when it gets within reach'? In the case of a Scout, if say one were also a caster with mobile spell casting, could they ready to move and cast a touch attack spell and thereby get skirmish dice (or die)? Is it your contention that a readied action is a separate 'turn' or not a 'turn' at all? If it's not a 'turn' then is it still the turn of the one that triggered the readied action? Can they cast swift (rather than immediate) action spells or do other free actions during the readied action (as much as they could during their own)? -James
Mommy was an Orc 06-27-07, 09:36 PM	Is it your contention that a readied action is a separate 'turn' or not a 'turn' at all? If it's not a 'turn' then is it still the turn of the one that triggered the readied action? I'm not making a contention about what kind of turn it is - Skirmish only happens during your turn and the Ready only happens after your turn is over.
Jay_Ibero_911 06-27-07, 10:46 PM	I'd just like to post what I think the flavor reason for skirmish only working on your turn is. The extra damage comes from the character being mobile, and that mobility putting the enemy off guard enough for you to hit them harder, even if it doesn't make it easier for you to hit them. Now when you ready your action, you basically are just sitting there waiting for the enemy to do something, so your mobility isn't gonna help you hurt them. It's the difference between running around and immediately shooting them, and running around, then sitting and waiting to shoot them......hope this makes the crunch of the rules sit better with some people...
JamesMaissen 06-28-07, 12:34 AM	I'm not making a contention about what kind of turn it is - Skirmish only happens during your turn and the Ready only happens after your turn is over. So who's turn is it when the readied action occurs? -James
Jay_Ibero_911 06-28-07, 12:46 AM	So who's turn is it when the readied action occurs? -James It's the turn of the character doing the action that triggered the readied action of course.