Slot-0's and TUs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Slot-0's and TUs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maesto
12-27-06, 11:57 AM Hi,

A question has come up on a local organisational list. If I play a slot-0 for a gamesday/con for january before/on the 31st of dec, which year do the TU's come from?

If you have an answer, please provide either a source (or at least a sound basis), or cite your name as on the prestigious list of squircley peoples =)

Cheers,

Jolyon
CrystalBlue
12-27-06, 12:32 PM Because all Slot-0 AR's are dated from the Con, that would mean they would be for the new year, as you, technically, won't be getting your AR's until you get to the con. Effectively, you haven't played the game till the date of the Con.
trollbill
12-27-06, 12:37 PM What if the date of the con is December 29th 2006 to January 1st 2007? Oddly my daughter has a specific problem. She is DMing at a con with this date range. They are running a Slot 0 for a new mod the night before the con, but the mod is a minimum APL6. Her highest level character, a 6th-level, is out of TUs for 2006, and her second highest is only 3rd.
CrystalBlue
12-27-06, 12:42 PM O.o Wow...I'd question who makes a con like that...

In this case, I think it would be up to the senior judge to determine what day to set the Slot-0s for. Traditionally, I've seen my AR's listed as the last day of the con. Other times, though, I've seen the Slot-0s as the day before the con. I would contact the senior judge running the con and ask him.
trollbill
12-27-06, 12:54 PM O.o Wow...I'd question who makes a con like that...

It's a traditional con held every year in the PoU. It is the last chance to play retiring mods and the first chance to play new mods for the year.
Howie23
12-27-06, 01:55 PM Hi,

A question has come up on a local organisational list. If I play a slot-0 for a gamesday/con for january before/on the 31st of dec, which year do the TU's come from?

If you have an answer, please provide either a source (or at least a sound basis), or cite your name as on the prestigious list of squircley peoples =)

We had this situation last year with a January convention. We were told by our triad (Tom Kee in Nyrond) in no uncertain terms that the TUs were spent for slot zeros as of the date they were played; we had no year six content available to zero in year five, so this was specifically applying to playing year five content in year five only. Those we played in year five, even if ARs were unavailable until the convention, were year five TUs.

FWIW, it created a considerable logistical hurdle, as characters were out of TUs in December and couldn't zero content until January.

There has been a cultural slip toward treating slot-zeros as if they are playtests. They aren't. Playtest ARs are effective when received (LGCS p. 64). Slot-zero ARs are effective when played, and there is no rules basis for delaying delivery. Slot zeros are part of the convention, and are the responsibility of the sr. judge. Playtests are part of the development of the product, and are the responsibility of the author and Triad reviewer/editor.

Other than premieres, where the AR may not yet be published, there is no rules basis for delaying AR delivery for slot zeros until the convention. There certainly are real-world considerations about delivering the printouts to the slot-zero judge, getting the judges to show up at the convention, getting the table record sheet, etc.

This is one of those instances where the practice is out of line with the RAW. Your Triad should have a handbook that covers this issue, from what I understand.

David (not an official anybody)
CrystalBlue
12-27-06, 02:10 PM Well then, I hope someone tells all of the senior judges that I've known that that's how it's supposed to be done...cause there's only been a few times that it was done like that. I was always told that my AR's from Slot-0s came at the convention, never before. I just assumed it was always done this way. And when I asked one of my friends who judges conventions, he said that that's how it's done.

I guess I would like an official ruleing now, cause I have AR's that STILL haven't been delivered to me from GenCon Indy...but that's another thread.
jhorred
12-27-06, 02:38 PM The big cons WF(now DDXP) and GenCon don't deliver AR's until the con. Seems to be logisitacally easier that way. Perhaps something that needs to be clarified in the new LGCS.
Howie23
12-27-06, 02:53 PM The big cons WF(now DDXP) and GenCon don't deliver AR's until the con. Seems to be logisitacally easier that way. Perhaps something that needs to be clarified in the new LGCS.

The big cons run only premieres, which are a separate issue.

Clarifying it in the new LGCS (if it is an LG issue rather than an RPGA issue) is the way to get the rules and practice in line with each other.

David
Britt
12-27-06, 03:54 PM I'll look into it.
jhorred
12-27-06, 04:24 PM The big cons run only premieres, which are a separate issue.

Clarifying it in the new LGCS (if it is an LG issue rather than an RPGA issue) is the way to get the rules and practice in line with each other.

David

IMHO it doesn't matter that the big cons only run premieres. They should follow the same rule everyone else does. In fact, to set a good example, they definately need to follow the rules. Either they need to change or the LGCS needs to change to reflect actual practice.
Howie23
12-27-06, 04:52 PM IMHO it doesn't matter that the big cons only run premieres. They should follow the same rule everyone else does. In fact, to set a good example, they definately need to follow the rules. Either they need to change or the LGCS needs to change to reflect actual practice.

I agree that the stated rule should match the actual practice. I also understand your point about the big cons setting the standards. It is certainly possible that the experience with the big cons has given many sr. judges the standard under which they are operating.

With respect to premieres: The AR is often the last piece of the mod that is completed, such that zeros are played before the AR is available. I'm not gonna defend that practice, but anyone who has been involved in large projects that involve many participants knows that there is always something that makes up for scheduling errors..something has to give.

The other explanation given re: premieres has to do with keeping the access undisclosed and preventing the pirating of the mod and/or excessive zeros, which can undermine the convention market.

This could all be accomodated by setting a different standard for premieres (officially) than for other mods. It's a logistically necessary condition much of the time anyway.

David
jhorred
12-27-06, 05:10 PM I agree that the stated rule should match the actual practice.

Or Vice versa. Though I think it'd be much easier to adjust the rule to match the practice and is very likely the better answer.

I also understand your point about the big cons setting the standards. It is certainly possible that the experience with the big cons has given many sr. judges the standard under which they are operating.

With respect to premieres: The AR is often the last piece of the mod that is completed, such that zeros are played before the AR is available. I'm not gonna defend that practice, but anyone who has been involved in large projects that involve many participants knows that there is always something that makes up for scheduling errors..something has to give.

The other explanation given re: premieres has to do with keeping the access undisclosed and preventing the pirating of the mod and/or excessive zeros, which can undermine the convention market.

This could all be accomodated by setting a different standard for premieres (officially) than for other mods. It's a logistically necessary condition much of the time anyway.

David

I completely understand the several issues with the premiere AR's but perhaps because of the premiere issues maybe the 'new' way it should be done is the way they are doing it at the big Cons. I know a number of the smaller cons follow their lead with AR issue.

I think we are mostly agreeing with each other but are looking at two sides of the same coin.
Howie23
12-27-06, 05:38 PM Or Vice versa. Though I think it'd be much easier to adjust the rule to match the practice and is very likely the better answer.

I'm not saying it should be one way..I intentionally used an ambiguous passive phrasing...they should be the same, which ever one changes.

I think we are mostly agreeing with each other but are looking at two sides of the same coin.

I'd be happy with it either way.

Social structures follow the needs of the society. We're an example of a social structure where we are very cognizant of the structure/rules. If the current stated way of doing doesn't work (trouble tracking tables, problems with judges not actually coming to the cons), and there is not a more pressing fundamental reason to keep it that way...change it. :)

David
zigspatty
12-28-06, 12:30 AM Actually, it's not that complicated. When you get your AR, you take off the TUs, and gain the xp & gp and any other effects from the mod. (It's so fun knowing your character will die when you get her AR, and wondering the exact effects of the curse you know she picked up....)

For a slot 0 of a year 7 mod, I don't think you can even spend year 6 TUs....
In the past, slot 0s for the New Year's holiday HUNYCon *were* playtests, there were enough judges for the retiring year mods that there was little need for slot 0s. And the ARs were usually delivered right after the mod's premiere.

Check with your Senior GM, TrollBill, I'm sure she's got plenty of experience with handling a con extends over New Years. She'll tell you when you'll get your ARs - so you'll know if you need to have the TUs to set aside. (And midnight madness must begin before midnight on Dec 31 if you plan to use Year 6 TUs for the game....)

Patty
(who has judged at several cons over the New Years holiday)
Swiftbrook
12-28-06, 08:08 AM I agree that the stated rule should match the actual practice. I also understand your point about the big cons setting the standards. It is certainly possible that the experience with the big cons has given many sr. judges the standard under which they are operating.

It seems to me that the stated rules for Slot-0 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761999 and standard practice are two completely different things, especially at the big cons.

It might be that there are different rules for "premiers" that I don't know about, but it seems to me that most judges at tables I've played at at GenCon, played the mod before running it. They talk after the mod is finished with comments like "our party did this", or "ya, we got the curse". Now these could be playtests but it just didn't seem that way. I may have to ask next year.

It seems that the rules should be that you need some amount of time to prepare between when you play your slot-0 and when you run the game.

I have been at a smaller con, played with someone the first night, then they picked up the mod from the lead judge, and then they ran the mod the next day. From what I heard, they did a fine job DMing. I have no problem with this. How many times have you been at a table when the judge starts reading the intro and its the wrong mod! This has happened to me. I think the DM completely winged it. I don't think they even had played the mod. Not the best game, but it wasn't bad.

Opinion: Change the rules to match the practice.

-Swiftbrook
Britt
12-28-06, 10:40 AM I should have a ruling on this sometime next week. Unfortunately, it will likely be too late for this end-of-year session.
Howie23
01-02-07, 05:15 PM I should have a ruling on this sometime next week. Unfortunately, it will likely be too late for this end-of-year session.

Britt,

The Pale Misc Circle Rulings page has an item on this matter:

http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html#yearlytus

David
Britt
01-02-07, 05:26 PM That ruling is not exactly accurate. A Dispel Confusion will be coming shortly with rules on this, though Jan 1st has already passed.
Howie23
01-02-07, 05:33 PM That ruling is not exactly accurate. A Dispel Confusion will be coming shortly with rules on this, though Jan 1st has already passed.

Sounds good. I'll make a point of dropping a note to David Baker to update when it comes out to help keep things consistent.

Thanks,

David

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maesto 12-27-06, 11:57 AM	Hi, A question has come up on a local organisational list. If I play a slot-0 for a gamesday/con for january before/on the 31st of dec, which year do the TU's come from? If you have an answer, please provide either a source (or at least a sound basis), or cite your name as on the prestigious list of squircley peoples =) Cheers, Jolyon
CrystalBlue 12-27-06, 12:32 PM	Because all Slot-0 AR's are dated from the Con, that would mean they would be for the new year, as you, technically, won't be getting your AR's until you get to the con. Effectively, you haven't played the game till the date of the Con.
trollbill 12-27-06, 12:37 PM	What if the date of the con is December 29th 2006 to January 1st 2007? Oddly my daughter has a specific problem. She is DMing at a con with this date range. They are running a Slot 0 for a new mod the night before the con, but the mod is a minimum APL6. Her highest level character, a 6th-level, is out of TUs for 2006, and her second highest is only 3rd.
CrystalBlue 12-27-06, 12:42 PM	O.o Wow...I'd question who makes a con like that... In this case, I think it would be up to the senior judge to determine what day to set the Slot-0s for. Traditionally, I've seen my AR's listed as the last day of the con. Other times, though, I've seen the Slot-0s as the day before the con. I would contact the senior judge running the con and ask him.
trollbill 12-27-06, 12:54 PM	O.o Wow...I'd question who makes a con like that... It's a traditional con held every year in the PoU. It is the last chance to play retiring mods and the first chance to play new mods for the year.
Howie23 12-27-06, 01:55 PM	Hi, A question has come up on a local organisational list. If I play a slot-0 for a gamesday/con for january before/on the 31st of dec, which year do the TU's come from? If you have an answer, please provide either a source (or at least a sound basis), or cite your name as on the prestigious list of squircley peoples =) We had this situation last year with a January convention. We were told by our triad (Tom Kee in Nyrond) in no uncertain terms that the TUs were spent for slot zeros as of the date they were played; we had no year six content available to zero in year five, so this was specifically applying to playing year five content in year five only. Those we played in year five, even if ARs were unavailable until the convention, were year five TUs. FWIW, it created a considerable logistical hurdle, as characters were out of TUs in December and couldn't zero content until January. There has been a cultural slip toward treating slot-zeros as if they are playtests. They aren't. Playtest ARs are effective when received (LGCS p. 64). Slot-zero ARs are effective when played, and there is no rules basis for delaying delivery. Slot zeros are part of the convention, and are the responsibility of the sr. judge. Playtests are part of the development of the product, and are the responsibility of the author and Triad reviewer/editor. Other than premieres, where the AR may not yet be published, there is no rules basis for delaying AR delivery for slot zeros until the convention. There certainly are real-world considerations about delivering the printouts to the slot-zero judge, getting the judges to show up at the convention, getting the table record sheet, etc. This is one of those instances where the practice is out of line with the RAW. Your Triad should have a handbook that covers this issue, from what I understand. David (not an official anybody)
CrystalBlue 12-27-06, 02:10 PM	Well then, I hope someone tells all of the senior judges that I've known that that's how it's supposed to be done...cause there's only been a few times that it was done like that. I was always told that my AR's from Slot-0s came at the convention, never before. I just assumed it was always done this way. And when I asked one of my friends who judges conventions, he said that that's how it's done. I guess I would like an official ruleing now, cause I have AR's that STILL haven't been delivered to me from GenCon Indy...but that's another thread.
jhorred 12-27-06, 02:38 PM	The big cons WF(now DDXP) and GenCon don't deliver AR's until the con. Seems to be logisitacally easier that way. Perhaps something that needs to be clarified in the new LGCS.
Howie23 12-27-06, 02:53 PM	The big cons WF(now DDXP) and GenCon don't deliver AR's until the con. Seems to be logisitacally easier that way. Perhaps something that needs to be clarified in the new LGCS. The big cons run only premieres, which are a separate issue. Clarifying it in the new LGCS (if it is an LG issue rather than an RPGA issue) is the way to get the rules and practice in line with each other. David
Britt 12-27-06, 03:54 PM	I'll look into it.
jhorred 12-27-06, 04:24 PM	The big cons run only premieres, which are a separate issue. Clarifying it in the new LGCS (if it is an LG issue rather than an RPGA issue) is the way to get the rules and practice in line with each other. David IMHO it doesn't matter that the big cons only run premieres. They should follow the same rule everyone else does. In fact, to set a good example, they definately need to follow the rules. Either they need to change or the LGCS needs to change to reflect actual practice.
Howie23 12-27-06, 04:52 PM	IMHO it doesn't matter that the big cons only run premieres. They should follow the same rule everyone else does. In fact, to set a good example, they definately need to follow the rules. Either they need to change or the LGCS needs to change to reflect actual practice. I agree that the stated rule should match the actual practice. I also understand your point about the big cons setting the standards. It is certainly possible that the experience with the big cons has given many sr. judges the standard under which they are operating. With respect to premieres: The AR is often the last piece of the mod that is completed, such that zeros are played before the AR is available. I'm not gonna defend that practice, but anyone who has been involved in large projects that involve many participants knows that there is always something that makes up for scheduling errors..something has to give. The other explanation given re: premieres has to do with keeping the access undisclosed and preventing the pirating of the mod and/or excessive zeros, which can undermine the convention market. This could all be accomodated by setting a different standard for premieres (officially) than for other mods. It's a logistically necessary condition much of the time anyway. David
jhorred 12-27-06, 05:10 PM	I agree that the stated rule should match the actual practice. Or Vice versa. Though I think it'd be much easier to adjust the rule to match the practice and is very likely the better answer. I also understand your point about the big cons setting the standards. It is certainly possible that the experience with the big cons has given many sr. judges the standard under which they are operating. With respect to premieres: The AR is often the last piece of the mod that is completed, such that zeros are played before the AR is available. I'm not gonna defend that practice, but anyone who has been involved in large projects that involve many participants knows that there is always something that makes up for scheduling errors..something has to give. The other explanation given re: premieres has to do with keeping the access undisclosed and preventing the pirating of the mod and/or excessive zeros, which can undermine the convention market. This could all be accomodated by setting a different standard for premieres (officially) than for other mods. It's a logistically necessary condition much of the time anyway. David I completely understand the several issues with the premiere AR's but perhaps because of the premiere issues maybe the 'new' way it should be done is the way they are doing it at the big Cons. I know a number of the smaller cons follow their lead with AR issue. I think we are mostly agreeing with each other but are looking at two sides of the same coin.
Howie23 12-27-06, 05:38 PM	Or Vice versa. Though I think it'd be much easier to adjust the rule to match the practice and is very likely the better answer. I'm not saying it should be one way..I intentionally used an ambiguous passive phrasing...they should be the same, which ever one changes. I think we are mostly agreeing with each other but are looking at two sides of the same coin. I'd be happy with it either way. Social structures follow the needs of the society. We're an example of a social structure where we are very cognizant of the structure/rules. If the current stated way of doing doesn't work (trouble tracking tables, problems with judges not actually coming to the cons), and there is not a more pressing fundamental reason to keep it that way...change it. :) David
zigspatty 12-28-06, 12:30 AM	Actually, it's not that complicated. When you get your AR, you take off the TUs, and gain the xp & gp and any other effects from the mod. (It's so fun knowing your character will die when you get her AR, and wondering the exact effects of the curse you know she picked up....) For a slot 0 of a year 7 mod, I don't think you can even spend year 6 TUs.... In the past, slot 0s for the New Year's holiday HUNYCon were playtests, there were enough judges for the retiring year mods that there was little need for slot 0s. And the ARs were usually delivered right after the mod's premiere. Check with your Senior GM, TrollBill, I'm sure she's got plenty of experience with handling a con extends over New Years. She'll tell you when you'll get your ARs - so you'll know if you need to have the TUs to set aside. (And midnight madness must begin before midnight on Dec 31 if you plan to use Year 6 TUs for the game....) Patty (who has judged at several cons over the New Years holiday)
Swiftbrook 12-28-06, 08:08 AM	I agree that the stated rule should match the actual practice. I also understand your point about the big cons setting the standards. It is certainly possible that the experience with the big cons has given many sr. judges the standard under which they are operating. It seems to me that the stated rules for Slot-0 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761999 and standard practice are two completely different things, especially at the big cons. It might be that there are different rules for "premiers" that I don't know about, but it seems to me that most judges at tables I've played at at GenCon, played the mod before running it. They talk after the mod is finished with comments like "our party did this", or "ya, we got the curse". Now these could be playtests but it just didn't seem that way. I may have to ask next year. It seems that the rules should be that you need some amount of time to prepare between when you play your slot-0 and when you run the game. I have been at a smaller con, played with someone the first night, then they picked up the mod from the lead judge, and then they ran the mod the next day. From what I heard, they did a fine job DMing. I have no problem with this. How many times have you been at a table when the judge starts reading the intro and its the wrong mod! This has happened to me. I think the DM completely winged it. I don't think they even had played the mod. Not the best game, but it wasn't bad. Opinion: Change the rules to match the practice. -Swiftbrook
Britt 12-28-06, 10:40 AM	I should have a ruling on this sometime next week. Unfortunately, it will likely be too late for this end-of-year session.
Howie23 01-02-07, 05:15 PM	I should have a ruling on this sometime next week. Unfortunately, it will likely be too late for this end-of-year session. Britt, The Pale Misc Circle Rulings page has an item on this matter: http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html#yearlytus David
Britt 01-02-07, 05:26 PM	That ruling is not exactly accurate. A Dispel Confusion will be coming shortly with rules on this, though Jan 1st has already passed.
Howie23 01-02-07, 05:33 PM	That ruling is not exactly accurate. A Dispel Confusion will be coming shortly with rules on this, though Jan 1st has already passed. Sounds good. I'll make a point of dropping a note to David Baker to update when it comes out to help keep things consistent. Thanks, David