Sneak Attacking and critically hitting with Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sneak Attacking and critically hitting with Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
myshkingfh
08-10-07, 10:32 AM Okay, so I have 3d6 sneak attack and can cast second level spells. When can I sneak attack with a spell? Is it simply any spell that requires an attack roll and does damage? I can sneak attack with a lesser orb of acid, right? No controversy there (I hope!).

Also, I can critically hit with spells, correct? Any spell that requires an attack roll? And the damage is doubled, even if it's abilty damage?

Let's pretend I flank a bad guy and hit him with touch of idiocy (1d6 reduction to int, wis and cha). Do I do 1d6 to int, wis and cha plus 3d6 of sneak hp damage? If I critically hit and confirm, is the ability reduction doubled?

Is this explained simply in the core rules somewhere? Guidance is appreciated! :)
Southernskies
08-10-07, 11:22 AM 1. The spell requires an attack roll (ranged or melee)
2. The spell must do damage (not a penalty)
3. You must meet the normal criteria for sneak attack (target flat-footed or flanked etc)
4. Only damage can benefit from a critical hit (a penalty does not have any effect when you crit).

References: PHB pg 50, 140-141, 175.
There is an actual line somewhere about sneak attack being the same damage type as the spell, but its obscure and I can't find it just now.

Lesser Orb of Acid is damage, so you can crit or sneak attack with it.
Touch of idiocy is a penalty, so you cannot crit or sneak attack with it.
myshkingfh
08-10-07, 11:48 AM Okay, thanks! So when i was critically hit with a ghost's corrupting touch the other day, was that because it did ability damage (as opposed to a penalty)? Is it just a different rule? Was the DM in error? If I had a spell that did ability damage (assuming there is one) could I critically hit with that?
KShaver
08-10-07, 02:26 PM Okay, thanks! So when i was critically hit with a ghost's corrupting touch the other day, was that because it did ability damage (as opposed to a penalty)? Is it just a different rule? Was the DM in error? If I had a spell that did ability damage (assuming there is one) could I critically hit with that?

Yes it was able to crit because it did ability damage and required and attack roll, so it wasn't a different rule. Yes, if you had a spell that required an attack roll to cause ability damage it could crit for aditional ability damage (not chill touch, thats an attack roll for hit point damage with a secondary effect of ability damage, thus chill touch can only crit for more hit point damage).
myshkingfh
08-10-07, 02:50 PM Thanks to both of you. This is an area where I've had a hard time getting a handle on things, and as a USS it'll obviously come in handy!
KarmaInferno
08-10-07, 03:22 PM I've been seriously debating taking Improved Critical (ranged spell).

I'm not sure it's worth it, though.

But my blaster throws ranged attack spells constantly, and critting that 15d6 Orb of Fire is sweet.

-karma
copper_wyrmling
08-12-07, 08:11 PM Yes it was able to crit because it did ability damage and required and attack roll, so it wasn't a different rule. Yes, if you had a spell that required an attack roll to cause ability damage it could crit for aditional ability damage (not chill touch, thats an attack roll for hit point damage with a secondary effect of ability damage, thus chill touch can only crit for more hit point damage).

However note that if you sneak attack with a spell that does ability damage, the sneak-attack damage is usually normal negative energy damage, not more ability damage (the rules are in Complete Arcane, but that's how I remember it).
myshkingfh
08-13-07, 02:56 PM Huh, that's interesting. So if I had a spell that did 1d4 strength damage and I managed a critical hit on a sneak attack, I'd do 2d4 strength damage and 3d6 hit point damage? Seems odd, but I'll note it down.
DuctShuiTengu
08-13-07, 04:23 PM the information on critting and sneak attacking with spells is found on pages 85 and 86 of Complete Arcane (unless it's been updated since then), though most of it matches what's been said here. The two points I will note:

First, critical hits multiply all the damage that the attack with that spell does (so if you crit with a chill touch, it multiplies both the strength damage and the cold damage.)

Also, spells that hit multiple times only get the bonus damage on the first attack, whether it hits or not. So if you hit someone with a scorching ray with a high enough caster level to get two rays, damage from point blank shot or sneak attack would be applied with the first ray (assuming it hits), but not the second (even if the first one misses). Presumably, critical hits in this case would be calculated seperately for each, though it doesn't specifically mention it.
Timlagor
08-14-07, 07:27 AM I see nothing to preclude gaining an extra point of Str damage from a Chill Touch Crit.

Be sure to check the Volley Rules in complete arcane for sneak attack: you only get it once per casting of a spell ..unless it's something that persists and can be used multiple times after casting (such as Chill Touch or Produce Flame; Scorching Ray will never get multiple SnAt)
Istaran
08-16-07, 02:48 PM I see nothing to preclude gaining an extra point of Str damage from a Chill Touch Crit.

Be sure to check the Volley Rules in complete arcane for sneak attack: you only get it once per casting of a spell ..unless it's something that persists and can be used multiple times after casting (such as Chill Touch or Produce Flame; Scorching Ray will never get multiple SnAt)

Does any one know how the volley rules work with Arcane Fusion?
If I cast Greater Arcane Fusion and use it to cast Arcane Fusion and Orb of Acid, using the Arcane Fusion to cast Orb of Acid and Lesser Orb of Acid and I have say 1d6 skirmish then do I only get skirmish damage on the first orb or on all three? I'm a little fuzzy on whether they are concidered one spell or multiple.
Timlagor
08-16-07, 07:14 PM If you told us where to find Arcane Fusion that would help.
Istaran
08-16-07, 07:40 PM I believe they are from Complete Mage, but I'm relying on google for that. I am away from books.
Jay_Ibero_911
08-16-07, 08:17 PM Does any one know how the volley rules work with Arcane Fusion?
If I cast Greater Arcane Fusion and use it to cast Arcane Fusion and Orb of Acid, using the Arcane Fusion to cast Orb of Acid and Lesser Orb of Acid and I have say 1d6 skirmish then do I only get skirmish damage on the first orb or on all three? I'm a little fuzzy on whether they are concidered one spell or multiple.

Well arcane fusion just lets you cast multiple spells at once. Since the orbs each an individual spell, you would get any applicable precision damage to each of them, just as if you had cast an acid orb and a quickened acid orb. The Twin Spell metamagic feat also creates duplicate castings with one spell slot, so it would also allow multiple instances of precision damage.
LachlarlanIII
08-17-07, 11:15 AM Could I sneak attack with a Ray of Enfeeblement?
Jay_Ibero_911
08-17-07, 11:18 AM Could I sneak attack with a Ray of Enfeeblement?

You can only get sneak attack with spells that do damage.
LachlarlanIII
08-17-07, 11:20 AM You can only get sneak attack with spells that do damage.

Yeah. I hate contradictions in spells.

The description says damage, the spell itself says penalty. :mad:
TWG_Prometheus
08-17-07, 11:46 AM As long as we're on the topic, I thought of one last night that I was trying to sort out in my head.

A creature with a natural weapon (or a monk) ect charges a Warmage Shocking Grasp and uses Deadly Defense, making their attack: (1d6+Str bludgeoning) + (5d6+2 Shocking Grasp+Edge) + (1d6 Deadly Defense) for a total of 7d6+Str+2. They have to hit the opponent's normal AC to land all of that rather than the opponent's touch AC, but all the damage would apply.

Then they crit...

Bonus dice aren't multiplied by the critical hit multiplier, so I don't see the die for Deadly Defense doing anything special on the critical hit. The 1d6+Str damage would obviously get the critical hit multiplier. Does the Shocking Grasp damage change to become counted as bonus damage like a Shock weapon when you use it with a natural attack instead of doing a touch attack though? Shocking Grasp can critical on its own, but I don't know if that's a sufficient line of reasoning.

Are we looking at 8d6+2+Str*2 or 13d6+4+Str*2?
Banor
08-17-07, 03:28 PM We had the same problem in a home game with a Daggerspell Mage Daggercast. The dagger crit range is 19-20. What happen if you roll a 19 and confirm it as a crit ? Would the dagger crit only but not the spell as the spell got a 20 crit range ? We ruled that the spell needed a different confirmation roll to crit but that it would threaten on a 19 as the dagger that was delivering the spell. Now was it the good ruling on that i doubt it but still it seemed fair to everyone
TWG_Prometheus
08-17-07, 05:17 PM My gut tells me that the Shocking Grasp/other spell should simply be incapable of a critical hit in such situations and be counted as bonus damage. Situations where the two attack forms have different threat ranges and the confusion that results are a good argument for that ruling, if nothing else.

Hello table variation.
Hariman
08-18-07, 12:05 PM My gut tells me that the Shocking Grasp/other spell should simply be incapable of a critical hit in such situations and be counted as bonus damage. Situations where the two attack forms have different threat ranges and the confusion that results are a good argument for that ruling, if nothing else.

Hello table variation.

It's already been stated that rider effects like Sneak Attack, Channeled Spells and weapon enchantments like Dessicating, Flaming, Shocking and all the others don't multiply on critical hits.

ONLY the weapon damage and any static bonuses like Bardsong and Weapon Enhancement bonuses (And Strength bonuses) get multiplied.

SO, a daggercast Shocking Grasp Critical Hit With 12 STR and a +1 weapon is: 2d4+4 +5d6 electricity damage for shocking grasp.

BUT, a confirmed natural 20 on just a shocking grasp spell is 10D6 damage. If the enemy is vulnerable to critical hits.

The same goes for Duskblade, Spellsword, Spell Storing Weapons and any other spell channeling abilities.
DuctShuiTengu
08-20-07, 12:11 PM While the book doesn't cover daggercasting, specifically, it does mention using an unarmed attack to deliver touch spells. To do so, you have to hit their normal AC, not just touch, but it deals both the spell damage and your unarmed damage. However, if it crits, only your unarmed damage is multiplied. Presumably, other effects that allow you to deliver spells via attacks with weapons would work the same way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
myshkingfh 08-10-07, 10:32 AM	Okay, so I have 3d6 sneak attack and can cast second level spells. When can I sneak attack with a spell? Is it simply any spell that requires an attack roll and does damage? I can sneak attack with a lesser orb of acid, right? No controversy there (I hope!). Also, I can critically hit with spells, correct? Any spell that requires an attack roll? And the damage is doubled, even if it's abilty damage? Let's pretend I flank a bad guy and hit him with touch of idiocy (1d6 reduction to int, wis and cha). Do I do 1d6 to int, wis and cha plus 3d6 of sneak hp damage? If I critically hit and confirm, is the ability reduction doubled? Is this explained simply in the core rules somewhere? Guidance is appreciated! :)
Southernskies 08-10-07, 11:22 AM	1. The spell requires an attack roll (ranged or melee) 2. The spell must do damage (not a penalty) 3. You must meet the normal criteria for sneak attack (target flat-footed or flanked etc) 4. Only damage can benefit from a critical hit (a penalty does not have any effect when you crit). References: PHB pg 50, 140-141, 175. There is an actual line somewhere about sneak attack being the same damage type as the spell, but its obscure and I can't find it just now. Lesser Orb of Acid is damage, so you can crit or sneak attack with it. Touch of idiocy is a penalty, so you cannot crit or sneak attack with it.
myshkingfh 08-10-07, 11:48 AM	Okay, thanks! So when i was critically hit with a ghost's corrupting touch the other day, was that because it did ability damage (as opposed to a penalty)? Is it just a different rule? Was the DM in error? If I had a spell that did ability damage (assuming there is one) could I critically hit with that?
KShaver 08-10-07, 02:26 PM	Okay, thanks! So when i was critically hit with a ghost's corrupting touch the other day, was that because it did ability damage (as opposed to a penalty)? Is it just a different rule? Was the DM in error? If I had a spell that did ability damage (assuming there is one) could I critically hit with that? Yes it was able to crit because it did ability damage and required and attack roll, so it wasn't a different rule. Yes, if you had a spell that required an attack roll to cause ability damage it could crit for aditional ability damage (not chill touch, thats an attack roll for hit point damage with a secondary effect of ability damage, thus chill touch can only crit for more hit point damage).
myshkingfh 08-10-07, 02:50 PM	Thanks to both of you. This is an area where I've had a hard time getting a handle on things, and as a USS it'll obviously come in handy!
KarmaInferno 08-10-07, 03:22 PM	I've been seriously debating taking Improved Critical (ranged spell). I'm not sure it's worth it, though. But my blaster throws ranged attack spells constantly, and critting that 15d6 Orb of Fire is sweet. -karma
copper_wyrmling 08-12-07, 08:11 PM	Yes it was able to crit because it did ability damage and required and attack roll, so it wasn't a different rule. Yes, if you had a spell that required an attack roll to cause ability damage it could crit for aditional ability damage (not chill touch, thats an attack roll for hit point damage with a secondary effect of ability damage, thus chill touch can only crit for more hit point damage). However note that if you sneak attack with a spell that does ability damage, the sneak-attack damage is usually normal negative energy damage, not more ability damage (the rules are in Complete Arcane, but that's how I remember it).
myshkingfh 08-13-07, 02:56 PM	Huh, that's interesting. So if I had a spell that did 1d4 strength damage and I managed a critical hit on a sneak attack, I'd do 2d4 strength damage and 3d6 hit point damage? Seems odd, but I'll note it down.
DuctShuiTengu 08-13-07, 04:23 PM	the information on critting and sneak attacking with spells is found on pages 85 and 86 of Complete Arcane (unless it's been updated since then), though most of it matches what's been said here. The two points I will note: First, critical hits multiply all the damage that the attack with that spell does (so if you crit with a chill touch, it multiplies both the strength damage and the cold damage.) Also, spells that hit multiple times only get the bonus damage on the first attack, whether it hits or not. So if you hit someone with a scorching ray with a high enough caster level to get two rays, damage from point blank shot or sneak attack would be applied with the first ray (assuming it hits), but not the second (even if the first one misses). Presumably, critical hits in this case would be calculated seperately for each, though it doesn't specifically mention it.
Timlagor 08-14-07, 07:27 AM	I see nothing to preclude gaining an extra point of Str damage from a Chill Touch Crit. Be sure to check the Volley Rules in complete arcane for sneak attack: you only get it once per casting of a spell ..unless it's something that persists and can be used multiple times after casting (such as Chill Touch or Produce Flame; Scorching Ray will never get multiple SnAt)
Istaran 08-16-07, 02:48 PM	I see nothing to preclude gaining an extra point of Str damage from a Chill Touch Crit. Be sure to check the Volley Rules in complete arcane for sneak attack: you only get it once per casting of a spell ..unless it's something that persists and can be used multiple times after casting (such as Chill Touch or Produce Flame; Scorching Ray will never get multiple SnAt) Does any one know how the volley rules work with Arcane Fusion? If I cast Greater Arcane Fusion and use it to cast Arcane Fusion and Orb of Acid, using the Arcane Fusion to cast Orb of Acid and Lesser Orb of Acid and I have say 1d6 skirmish then do I only get skirmish damage on the first orb or on all three? I'm a little fuzzy on whether they are concidered one spell or multiple.
Timlagor 08-16-07, 07:14 PM	If you told us where to find Arcane Fusion that would help.
Istaran 08-16-07, 07:40 PM	I believe they are from Complete Mage, but I'm relying on google for that. I am away from books.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-16-07, 08:17 PM	Does any one know how the volley rules work with Arcane Fusion? If I cast Greater Arcane Fusion and use it to cast Arcane Fusion and Orb of Acid, using the Arcane Fusion to cast Orb of Acid and Lesser Orb of Acid and I have say 1d6 skirmish then do I only get skirmish damage on the first orb or on all three? I'm a little fuzzy on whether they are concidered one spell or multiple. Well arcane fusion just lets you cast multiple spells at once. Since the orbs each an individual spell, you would get any applicable precision damage to each of them, just as if you had cast an acid orb and a quickened acid orb. The Twin Spell metamagic feat also creates duplicate castings with one spell slot, so it would also allow multiple instances of precision damage.
LachlarlanIII 08-17-07, 11:15 AM	Could I sneak attack with a Ray of Enfeeblement?
Jay_Ibero_911 08-17-07, 11:18 AM	Could I sneak attack with a Ray of Enfeeblement? You can only get sneak attack with spells that do damage.
LachlarlanIII 08-17-07, 11:20 AM	You can only get sneak attack with spells that do damage. Yeah. I hate contradictions in spells. The description says damage, the spell itself says penalty. :mad:
TWG_Prometheus 08-17-07, 11:46 AM	As long as we're on the topic, I thought of one last night that I was trying to sort out in my head. A creature with a natural weapon (or a monk) ect charges a Warmage Shocking Grasp and uses Deadly Defense, making their attack: (1d6+Str bludgeoning) + (5d6+2 Shocking Grasp+Edge) + (1d6 Deadly Defense) for a total of 7d6+Str+2. They have to hit the opponent's normal AC to land all of that rather than the opponent's touch AC, but all the damage would apply. Then they crit... Bonus dice aren't multiplied by the critical hit multiplier, so I don't see the die for Deadly Defense doing anything special on the critical hit. The 1d6+Str damage would obviously get the critical hit multiplier. Does the Shocking Grasp damage change to become counted as bonus damage like a Shock weapon when you use it with a natural attack instead of doing a touch attack though? Shocking Grasp can critical on its own, but I don't know if that's a sufficient line of reasoning. Are we looking at 8d6+2+Str2 or 13d6+4+Str2?
Banor 08-17-07, 03:28 PM	We had the same problem in a home game with a Daggerspell Mage Daggercast. The dagger crit range is 19-20. What happen if you roll a 19 and confirm it as a crit ? Would the dagger crit only but not the spell as the spell got a 20 crit range ? We ruled that the spell needed a different confirmation roll to crit but that it would threaten on a 19 as the dagger that was delivering the spell. Now was it the good ruling on that i doubt it but still it seemed fair to everyone
TWG_Prometheus 08-17-07, 05:17 PM	My gut tells me that the Shocking Grasp/other spell should simply be incapable of a critical hit in such situations and be counted as bonus damage. Situations where the two attack forms have different threat ranges and the confusion that results are a good argument for that ruling, if nothing else. Hello table variation.
Hariman 08-18-07, 12:05 PM	My gut tells me that the Shocking Grasp/other spell should simply be incapable of a critical hit in such situations and be counted as bonus damage. Situations where the two attack forms have different threat ranges and the confusion that results are a good argument for that ruling, if nothing else. Hello table variation. It's already been stated that rider effects like Sneak Attack, Channeled Spells and weapon enchantments like Dessicating, Flaming, Shocking and all the others don't multiply on critical hits. ONLY the weapon damage and any static bonuses like Bardsong and Weapon Enhancement bonuses (And Strength bonuses) get multiplied. SO, a daggercast Shocking Grasp Critical Hit With 12 STR and a +1 weapon is: 2d4+4 +5d6 electricity damage for shocking grasp. BUT, a confirmed natural 20 on just a shocking grasp spell is 10D6 damage. If the enemy is vulnerable to critical hits. The same goes for Duskblade, Spellsword, Spell Storing Weapons and any other spell channeling abilities.
DuctShuiTengu 08-20-07, 12:11 PM	While the book doesn't cover daggercasting, specifically, it does mention using an unarmed attack to deliver touch spells. To do so, you have to hit their normal AC, not just touch, but it deals both the spell damage and your unarmed damage. However, if it crits, only your unarmed damage is multiplied. Presumably, other effects that allow you to deliver spells via attacks with weapons would work the same way.