Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tengu 07-31-07, 12:22 PM	So, by the snipe rule (PHB 76), I am at 120’ away from a bad guy, I come out of hiding and shoot him with a single attack, I then re-hide but take a -20. If I have the hide-in-plan-sight feat this only helps by eliminating the requirement to have to find cover or concealment. If I have the woodland archer feat, I can shoot (still only one shot), move and hide but still at -20. However, I have read on other threads that melee guys don’t share this pain. For example, a level 1 shadowdancer with hide-in-plane-sight and spring attack feats, comes out of hiding moves 10’, hits a guy with a great axe, moves away 10’ feet at then re-hides without suffering a -20. They argue that the snipe rule clearly reads “when making a ranged attack”. Is this really how folks are playing it? Is this really how the rules are meant to be applied? Thanks,
nobodez 07-31-07, 12:45 PM	It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. No, there's no difference in the rules, just idiots who aren't reading them all. Also, don't forget that if you're 120' feet away, your target takes a -12 penalty on their Spot check to notice you, and if they're in melee, the penalty increases to -17 (since they're distracted). So you, a sniper, are 120' from your target and light them up with a manyshot, then hide with a -20. Your target, who's in melee combat with your buddies, looks around frantically for you, but takes a -17 penalty on his Spot check. He's got a 15% (+3) better chance of finding you that if you were less than 10' apart and you didn't make an attack. Then your buddy, the shadowdancer, spring attack the same guy, taking a -20 on their hide check because they attacked in the middle of their movement. They're also much closer, only 15' away, so their target only has a net of -7 to Spot them, which means they have a now 65% greater chance of being spotted than if they hadn't have moved and attacked. I'd still rather be the sniper, since mostly likely you'll be able to move at least half if not full movement away from your position while your target is charging towards you.
LachlarlanIII 07-31-07, 02:50 PM	No, there's no difference in the rules, just idiots who aren't reading them all. Also, don't forget that if you're 120' feet away, your target takes a -12 penalty on their Spot check to notice you, and if they're in melee, the penalty increases to -17 (since they're distracted). So you, a sniper, are 120' from your target and light them up with a manyshot, then hide with a -20. Your target, who's in melee combat with your buddies, looks around frantically for you, but takes a -17 penalty on his Spot check. He's got a 15% (+3) better chance of finding you that if you were less than 10' apart and you didn't make an attack. Then your buddy, the shadowdancer, spring attack the same guy, taking a -20 on their hide check because they attacked in the middle of their movement. They're also much closer, only 15' away, so their target only has a net of -7 to Spot them, which means they have a now 65% greater chance of being spotted than if they hadn't have moved and attacked. I'd still rather be the sniper, since mostly likely you'll be able to move at least half if not full movement away from your position while your target is charging towards you. Just a nitpick. Manyshot doesn't work unless you're within 30 feet of your target.
control freak 07-31-07, 03:07 PM	sorry to hijack the thread but does being threatened for taking 10 mean melee only or whenever in init
bitznarf 07-31-07, 03:10 PM	Take a look at the example used in the PHB. It is most definitly not only when you are in melee.
Timlagor 07-31-07, 03:19 PM	If the shadodancer gets to hide while observed then can indeed hide again as theymove without taking any penalty: you knew where they were when they hit you but then you lost them again. The point about sniping (that isn't very well conveyed by the rules) is that you never even see the sniper.
UMiskatonic 07-31-07, 03:45 PM	The other problem is that Hide in Plain sight really needs a better explanation. How does the Hide in plain sight ability interact with the sniping rules, or with the hiding and moving rules, or the hiding and attacking rules? I understand Nobodez's point about always taking the penalties, but then someone with hide in Plain sight and spring attack is just as sneaky as someone without hide in plain sight and sneak attack. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. My understanding is that you can't do any of those things, ever. Unless you have Hide in Plain sight, the purpose of which is to allow you do hide in ways that mere mortals cannot.
control freak 07-31-07, 04:00 PM	Tome of magic expands on the fact that you are no longer a mortal you are part shadow in ways that cannot be explained you made contact with the shadow plane and gained knowlage of things that few adventurers have ever dreamed of personaly i believe that no rogue would be out done in any way with hide in plain sight because if they have a + 20 to spot you and you have + 30 to hide you still have 50% (without the -es they take)
Tengu 07-31-07, 04:24 PM	The other problem is that Hide in Plain sight really needs a better explanation. How does the Hide in plain sight ability interact with the sniping rules, or with the hiding and moving rules, or the hiding and attacking rules? I understand Nobodez's point about always taking the penalties, but then someone with hide in Plain sight and spring attack is just as sneaky as someone without hide in plain sight and sneak attack. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. My understanding is that you can't do any of those things, ever. Unless you have Hide in Plain sight, the purpose of which is to allow you do hide in ways that mere mortals cannot. The advantage of Hide In Plain Sight is that without it you need some sort of cover or concealment to use the hide skill – i.e. you need something to hide in like shadows of a wall or duck under a bush. Thus the Shadowdancers ability to Hide In Plain Sight (as long as near shadows) is not really hide in plane slight (as the Ranger ability really is). A middle ground is the Camouflage feat which allows you to hide in natural terrain even if the terrain does not provide cover or concealment. In short, Hide In Plain Sight lets you hide anyplace but gives you no pluses in doing so. Without this feat you need something to hide in or under (cover or concealment).
bitznarf 07-31-07, 04:54 PM	There are actually several different versions of Hide in Plain Sight as Tengu is saying. The ranger version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#hideinPlainSight) is an extrodianary ability that simply allows the ranger to try to hide even when being observed. The shadow dancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#hideInPlainSight) version is a supernatural ability that also gives you the ability to hide without actually having something to hide behind (so long as there is a shadow within 10 feet). They are actually 2 different abilities that go by the same name.
solbergb 07-31-07, 07:26 PM	Ok, some key distinctions. 1. Attacking (or cast attack spell) and then moving/hiding. You are fully visible when attacking, you can hide with no penalty if going half speed or -5 if going full speed, assuming you can find cover/concealment/have HIPS and at some point exit "direct observations" 2. Sniping - shoot and hide at -20. In this case you are NEVER visible, the arrow just comes out of *somewhere*. With woodland sniper feat you can combine that -20 hide check with a move, otherwise it's a move action and you can only 5' step. Sniping is attacking without being seen . Attack+hide is just that - it's much easier mechanically. Attack+hide is vulnerable to "I ready to XXX when he shoots". Sniping is not, if they can't make the spot check.
Tengu 07-31-07, 08:56 PM	Ok, some key distinctions. 1. Attacking (or cast attack spell) and then moving/hiding. You are fully visible when attacking, you can hide with no penalty if going half speed or -5 if going full speed, assuming you can find cover/concealment/have HIPS and at some point exit "direct observations" 2. Sniping - shoot and hide at -20. In this case you are NEVER visible, the arrow just comes out of *somewhere*. With woodland sniper feat you can combine that -20 hide check with a move, otherwise it's a move action and you can only 5' step. Sniping is attacking without being seen . Attack+hide is just that - it's much easier mechanically. Attack+hide is vulnerable to "I ready to XXX when he shoots". Sniping is not, if they can't make the spot check. So by this logic, I could snipe which by the rules alows me to take a single attack and not move and then get a -20 OR I can just shoot as a standered action then move 10' and hide and not get the -20? What about the woodland sniper feat, do you read that as no longer a -20 because I moved? Why would I ever snipe if I can shoot as a standered action, move 10' and the hide and not have a -20?
solbergb 07-31-07, 09:18 PM	By the rules you can snipe and the enemy DOES NOT KNOW WHERE YOU ARE, and take the -20. Or you can reveal your position, then move and hide, without the -20. That's the difference. Concealing where the attack came from. Given the effects of area spells, and the limited radius of "revealing" spells or even sensory stuff like scent and blindsense, not revealing approximate location is a pretty big deal. Fighting somebody who is good enough at hiding to use the sniper rules is very frustrating. The "reveal and hide" guy can be attacked by folks with zero spot checks via the readied action mechanic, including doing things like dropping faerie fire or glitterdust on them, or something to restrict their movement so they're easy to pinpoint after hiding. If all you do is move 10', you almost might as well not be hidden. Somebody will reveal you shortly, or at least pinpoint you. Of course the more mobility you have the better your chance of evading discovery. Which is why moving at full speed is at -5, and running as bad as sniping (-20) With snipers - you gotta make the spot check or you don't have a clue where they are. It's a big difference. As an aside, the sniper rule only works with ranged weapons, whereas "attack+move/hide" can be done with any form of attack (melee, missile, spellcasting). There isn't any hide mechanic where you can hit somebody with a sword and they don't know roughly where you are when you're being hit. (total concealment and reach can limit them to direction only). Verbal and somatic components also have to be obvious, and some spells have visual effects that will pinpoint source (eg, rays) which can limit the ability to hide if you need those components, so it's easier to just move/hide after casting.
clannagh 07-31-07, 09:52 PM	One issue that is always unclear to me in all this spring attack/shoot/snipe action is in which cases are the attacks "unobserved" ? (and also, in which cases does it require the defender to actively spend an action spotting to locate the attacker)
Timlagor 08-01-07, 07:54 AM	"Shot and Hide" also has the major problem that you will be observed as soon as you shoot and will then need total cover/concealment or a distraction to get yourself unobserved again if you don't have HiPS (oen let's you hide while observed.. I never remember the various texts)
Timlagor 08-01-07, 07:56 AM	You get a reactive spot check to see people doing stuff -so any time someone tries to hide everyone has a chance to see them anyway. If that fails they then have the option to spend a move action to peer into the bushes (or whatever) in an attempt to make out (spot) what they know (or just believe) to be there. Your character doesn't usually know when they are making a reactive skill check (or alternatively they are always making them and don't know when it will matter)
solbergb 08-01-07, 01:23 PM	"Shot and Hide" also has the major problem that you will be observed as soon as you shoot and will then need total cover/concealment or a distraction to get yourself unobserved again if you don't have HiPS (oen let's you hide while observed.. I never remember the various texts) Correct. Most folks that do it have terrain and mobility that allows rehiding, or they have one of the HIPS-like abilities that lets them hide without a distraction.
Tengu 08-02-07, 11:25 AM	OK, please let me know if I am summarizing this correctly, you can (assume I don’t have HiPS): 1. Snipe: be hiding in place with partial concealment or cover, and while still hiding, shoot a single shot, but now take a -20 to be spotted. OR 2. At the start of my turn exit hiding in a place that had cover/concealment, take a standard action to shoot or melee, move to another place with cover/concealment and re-hide and not take a -20. This leads into the question, what if I move but end up back in the 5’ space that I started? Which brings up 3… OR 3. Given 2, why cant I start my turn in a place with cover/concealment, exit hiding and take a Full Round Action and then not move (or just take a 5’ step) and then re-hide and not take a -20. So, if the above are the rules as intended, then what is the point of the Woodland Archer feat which implies that a sniper needs to re-hide. They use the words that before using the feat “you must succeed on a snipe attack both hitting your target and successfully hiding thereafter”. Moreover, after setting up the feat you get the benefit of “you can make a sniping attack again in the following round, taking a single move after your attack AND BEFOR YOU HIDE (charitctors without this feat can only shoot AND HIDE (not remain hidden - my add), not move as well.” Given the wording of this feat, it seems to me that 2 and 3 above are not allowed and thus the Step from the shadows 10’ and Chuck Norse the guy in the face and step 10’ away and re-hide but not take a -20 (because while you were Chuck Norse you were not hidden) is not the way the rules are meant to be applied. They way I read it is that after you Chuck Norse you need to find cover/concealment (HiPS counst for finding concealment) and most definitly take the -20. The only way I can see to overcome this is by using Swift Invisibility.
Tengu 08-02-07, 11:38 AM	While we are at it, let’s talk about concealment for a second. The DM tells me that there are tree leaves or shadows that allow partial (20%) concealment. So, if I move over there I get the partial (20%) concealment even before hiding, right? Then I use the concealment to hide. If the bad guy then fails a spot check I get total (50%) concealment because I am, as far as he is concerned, invisible. But if he does spot me, do I just go back to partial (20%) concealment or do I now lose all concealment? Would it matter if he beat my hide by a 1 or if it were by a 20?
bitznarf 08-02-07, 11:56 AM	1. Snipe: be hiding in place with partial concealment or cover, and while still hiding, shoot a single shot, but now take a -20 to be spotted. Thats correct, you would make a new hide check with a -20 penalty. If you succeed vs. their spot you haven't been seen, they have no idea where you are. 2. At the start of my turn exit hiding in a place that had cover/concealment, take a standard action to shoot or melee, move to another place with cover/concealment and re-hide and not take a -20. This leads into the question, what if I move but end up back in the 5’ space that I started? Not as I understand it, because you are now being observed as soon as you take that standard action to shoot or melee, and as such you cannot hide. And thus 3 does not work either. So, if the above are the rules as intended, then what is the point of the Woodland Archer feat which implies that a sniper needs to re-hide. He does, he makes a hide check with a -20 penalty to *remain* unseen. HiPS counts for finding concealment Only the Shadowdancer's HiPS ability removes the need for cover/concealment. The ranger's version still needs cover/concealment. The thing both have in common is the ability to hide even when being observed. While we are at it, let’s talk about concealment for a second. The DM tells me that there are tree leaves or shadows that allow partial (20%) concealment. So, if I move over there I get the partial (20%) concealment even before hiding, right? Then I use the concealment to hide. Note that without HiPS if you being casually observed you cannot hide. So the bad guy doesn't even have to make a spot check unless he is otherwise distracted by a diversion (via bluff), or is totally unaware of you for some other reason. If the bad guy then fails a spot check I get total (50%) concealment because I am, as far as he is concerned, invisible. But if he does spot me, do I just go back to partial (20%) concealment or do I now lose all concealment? Would it matter if he beat my hide by a 1 or if it were by a 20? You lose the benefit of not being seen if he sees you. Namely he knows where you are and only suffers the 20% concealment given by the tree/shadows. How much he beats your hide check by does not matter.
solbergb 08-02-07, 12:32 PM	hiding is part of movement, it doesn't take a standard action. To escape direct observation you need a bit of full cover, full concealment, an ability that lets you hide under direct observation or a distraction (somebody does a bluff, if you do it, takes actions). If you can't manage one of those, you remain visible. There is no hide or spot check required to keep track of you. For a normal person, 20% concealment won't end the "Direct observation" caveat. So if you have a bush and a big tree, you could use the tree to evade direct observation when you got directly behind it, then use the bush for concealment to move away from the tree but your ability to move hidden stops if there is open ground. (again, barring an ability like hide in plain sight) You could end up back where you started, if you want, but usually the goal is to move because folks will be searching around where they last saw you (often with things like scent, blindsense or area "revealing" spells)
SgtHulka 08-02-07, 01:05 PM	2. At the start of my turn exit hiding in a place that had cover/concealment, take a standard action to shoot or melee, move to another place with cover/concealment and re-hide and not take a -20. As both Solbergb and Bitznarf have mentioned, this is where you're misunderstanding stems from. They've both explained it well, but sometimes hearing the same thing expained different ways can help. So here's my attempt at "fixing" your quote: 2. At the start of my turn exit hiding in a place that had cover/concealment, take a standard action to shoot or melee, move THROUGH another place with Full Cover/Total Concealment TO a place with cover/concealment and re-hide and not take a -20 (but take a negative to your move silently or hide based on how fast you decided to move). The above can be accomplished with spells like obscuring mist or fog cloud, or with billowing smokesticks lying aorund. EDIT: note that the cover/concealment has to be directly connected to the Full Cover/Total Concealment b/c as soon as you step into the open you're observed again. Which brings up an interesting point...is the Complete Adventurer rule that allows you to move unobserved through 5' of open ground for every 5 ranks of hide used in Living Greyhawk?
solbergb 08-02-07, 02:13 PM	All optional skill rules from splatbooks are explicitly for the GM at the table to decide, per the LGCS. Some will allow, some will not. I for example, mostly don't know them so mostly don't allow them. The races of wild "Balance on trees" rules are an extension of existing rules, anything like that I allow. The "Do new things that are better than feats with skills by making really high rolls" stuff I mostly don't allow. But it's worth asking me on a case by case basis when I run. I don't have firm opinions.
SgtHulka 08-02-07, 04:10 PM	Interesting. As always, thanks for the info Solbergb. :)
Tengu 08-02-07, 08:13 PM	As both Solbergb and Bitznarf have mentioned, this is where you're misunderstanding stems from. They've both explained it well, but sometimes hearing the same thing expained different ways can help. So here's my attempt at "fixing" your quote: 2. At the start of my turn exit hiding in a place that had cover/concealment, take a standard action to shoot or melee, move THROUGH another place with Full Cover/Total Concealment TO a place with cover/concealment and re-hide and not take a -20 (but take a negative to your move silently or hide based on how fast you decided to move). The above can be accomplished with spells like obscuring mist or fog cloud, or with billowing smokesticks lying aorund. EDIT: note that the cover/concealment has to be directly connected to the Full Cover/Total Concealment b/c as soon as you step into the open you're observed again. Which brings up an interesting point...is the Complete Adventurer rule that allows you to move unobserved through 5' of open ground for every 5 ranks of hide used in Living Greyhawk? So, if I am reading you correctly, if I have the woodland archer feat, I can come out of hide and take a single shot and then take a move action. If I find no cover or concealment, I can't re-hide (of course were I came from my still be avalable or maybe not - like if it were a spell that just expired). If I find partial cover or concealment I can re-hide but take -20. If I stop at a square or pass thru a square with total cover or concealment, I can re-hide with out the -20? Also, is the reason I can't come out of hiding, shoot, move and re-hide (without woodland archer) because to hide is a move action and I am out of move actions? Would haste overcome this?
solbergb 08-02-07, 08:16 PM	Ok, one more time. What woodland archer does is extend the "sniper" options. Normally you shoot, take a -20 hide as move action and if you succeed, nobody knows where you are. With woodland archer, you shoot, take a -20 hide, and are free to move (as long as you have some cover or concealment) and again nobody knows where you were when you fired the shot. You do NOT reveal your position when sniping if your hide beats the other guy's spot. In the "shoot, move and hide" model, you DO reveal your position. But that approach doesn't take a feat.
Timlagor 08-03-07, 02:01 AM	You keep talking about "coming out of hiding". If you move out of hiding before attacking then your opponent is no longer denied their Dex-to-AC so you've lost a large part of the benefit of hiding in the first place. In general it's much better to fire a volley than to attempt to stay hidden.
solbergb 08-03-07, 11:57 AM	You don't move out of hiding. You shoot, which reveals your location if you don't do the sniping. After that, yeah, any further shots they're not flatfooted. Sniping is a tactic for people who only get one attack and whose sneak attack damage is significantly more than their arrow damage, or for those who are good at multiattack. For most archers, just full attacking is better.
Tengu 08-03-07, 06:29 PM	Can you use Manyshot as your single snipe shot? I was reading on another post that you can't use Manyshot and Shot-on-the-Run, does that apply here as well? PHB reads "a single shot"?
solbergb 08-03-07, 08:05 PM	The restriction on shot-on-run is because the keyword "attack" is used. Manyshot isn't an attack action (you can't full-attack/manyshot). Only a ranged attack that could be used as part of an iterative full attack qualifies for shot on run, and the FAQ confirms this and that this is the reasoning. The sniper rules don't use that keyword. As they don't explicitly include std action projectile weapon attacks like Keen Shot and Manyshot I suppose a judge could rule that it wouldn't work. I've just never seen anybody do that. I allow those attacks unless the maneuver explicitly prohibits it. I guess you could reverse that logic and rule against manyshot. They don't use the std action attack keyword either such as flyby attack. So intent isn't clear. I've just never seen anybody rule that way. In my book, the 30' range limit is sufficient restriction on manyshot (sniping is MUCH easier at longer ranges to mitigate that -20) to keep it in balance, and the rules don't exclude it.
control freak 08-03-07, 10:04 PM	i know this is an abuse of the rules and no judge would let you do this but, can you hide in your equipments shadows (it states you cant hide in YOUR shadow)? i know its dumb but more seriously how about portable shade, wouldnt that be wierd shade 50 feet in the air moving about while you a flying kobalt shadow dancer that fly bye attacked every turn
bitznarf 08-03-07, 10:05 PM	i know this is an abuse of the rules and no judge would let you do this but, can you hide in your equipments shadows (it states you cant hide in YOUR shadow)? Attended equipment is generally considered to be part of you, even so far as you making saves for it.
control freak 08-03-07, 10:16 PM	animated sheilds considered attanded?
bitznarf 08-03-07, 10:37 PM	Yes.