Some Polymorph Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Some Polymorph Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vanadium
01-12-07, 06:45 PM Okay, I am unsure how this might work in Living Greyhawk due to the fact that we don't use all of the Polymorph errata, so here I go.

Let's say I have a prestige class that is dependant on race (say, Wildrunner). If I use a polymorph effect on him, would he lose all the benefits of that prestige class? I guess its the same for racially-dependant feats, but the prestige class seems more common.

While we're at it, what happens if I use Alter Self as a human? Do I lose my human feat and skill points like with that errata? What if I Alter Self into a human when not a human myself? Human to another Human?

I think I know all the answers to these by the rules of general D&D, but I am unsure about how things happen here. Then again, the last time I knew how polymorph worked it was when it seemed that everything was racial (like the human feat and skill points). I don't even know if anything has changed since then.
SgtHulka
01-14-07, 09:53 PM Let's say I have a prestige class that is dependant on race (say, Wildrunner). If I use a polymorph effect on him, would he lose all the benefits of that prestige class? I guess its the same for racially-dependant feats, but the prestige class seems more common.

With Alter Self, your creature Type and Subtype remain the same, regardless of the form you acquire. I'm not seeing where Polymorph changes that, so I'd assume it defaults to alter self and your Type and Subtype remain the same. If that's the case, I wouldn't think you'd lose prestige classes based on race, since you'd still be that race albeit in a different form.

While we're at it, what happens if I use Alter Self as a human? Do I lose my human feat and skill points like with that errata? What if I Alter Self into a human when not a human myself? Human to another Human?

I believe the answer to all of the above is "yes". From Alter Self:

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If you look in the monster manual, "Racial Traits" are under the "Special Qualities" line. That means you lose them all. If you're a human, you lose your bonus feat and skill points. If you're a Dwarf, you lose darkvision, stonecunning, bonus armor class against giants, etc., etc.

In fact, if you Alter Selfed or Polymorphed into yourself, you would still lose it all, because you still lose special qualities but you don't gain any, except for natural armor, gross physical abilities, etc.

The same goes for Polymorph, btw, since it defaults to Alter Self on that rule.

I'm interested to hear from others if I've somehow misinterpreted the above.
chesspiece
01-19-07, 09:14 AM Let's say I have a prestige class that is dependant on race (say, Wildrunner). If I use a polymorph effect on him, would he lose all the benefits of that prestige class? I guess its the same for racially-dependant feats, but the prestige class seems more common.

Here's a fun fact. If all there is at the table is the 3 Core books, then loss of a PRC Prereq does not strip you of any PRC abilities. There is no such rule in the 3.5DMG (although there was in the 3.0DMG). I only know of two Complete books (Warrior and Divine, IIRC) that contain the rule - although I haven't checked Mage and don't own Scoundrel or Race / Environment books. So far, I have yet to hear a LG stance on this topic. Likely options include:
a) Rule is in effect always
b) Rule is in effect if anyone at the table has a book containing the rule
c) Rule is only in effect for PRCs taken from books with this rule
d) Rule is always in effect if the latest splatbook contains it, but never in effect if the latest splatbook omits it (better check Complete Scoundrel)

Which means the correct answer is:
e) Expect table variation. ;)
trollbill
01-19-07, 09:52 AM According to the SRD Polymorph listing:

The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

I am pretty sure that this would mean you can no longer use Feats that have your original race as a Prereq. PRCs I don't think that holds true for. Though if, for some reason this proved perminant, you probably couldn't advance. But I would expect some table variance.

In fact, if you Alter Selfed or Polymorphed into yourself, you would still lose it all, because you still lose special qualities but you don't gain any, except for natural armor, gross physical abilities, etc.

Fortunately this isn't a problem for humans in LG since, according to the LGSC, you cannot polymorph into one.
SgtHulka
01-21-07, 09:56 AM Thanks for the reference, Trollbill. I thought I had seen something to that effect in Polymorph but when I looked it up again I missed it.

So, yeah, you'd lose your prestige class goodies.

I find it interesting that on the D&D boards the majority of opinion seems to be that Polymorph is completely broken, and the new errata proves it. Yet in Living Greyhawk finding someone willing to be polymorphed is quite difficult. No one wants to lose their equipment and/or bonus feats and/or characteristic-dependent feats and/or (now that Trollbill's pointed it out to me) prestige class bonuses.

Granted, in LG you don't have access to Monster Manual II-IV and Fiend Folio creatures, but are those beasties really so powerful as to break polymorph? Or is it persistant spell that breaks it?
Nutation
01-22-07, 05:10 PM Granted, in LG you don't have access to Monster Manual II-IV and Fiend Folio creatures, but are those beasties really so powerful as to break polymorph?

The books alone are enough. As a simple example, imagine being able to Alter Self into an avorel (winged elf) from Races of Faerun. That's flight for 10min/level as a 2nd level spell in addition to your other options for natural armor, swim speed, etc.
bitznarf
01-29-07, 03:36 PM IIRC, LG does not use the most recent polymorph errata, and thus figuring polymorph in general can get a bit wonky. Come to think of it, this might be a subject worth including in the CY597 LGCS; at the very least some sort of official compilation of which polymorph rules are being used. On a side note, (once again IIRC) the alternate rules and/or new rules that work differently in the splat books vs. the Core books are not required to be used by the judge at the table. The best one can do is bring the book with the rule and ask if you can use it at the table (barring a Circle ruling such as the much debated [Evil] = evil act).
bitznarf
01-29-07, 03:40 PM You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If you look in the monster manual, "Racial Traits" are under the "Special Qualities" line. That means you lose them all. If you're a human, you lose your bonus feat and skill points. If you're a Dwarf, you lose darkvision, stonecunning, bonus armor class against giants, etc., etc.

In fact, if you Alter Selfed or Polymorphed into yourself, you would still lose it all, because you still lose special qualities but you don't gain any, except for natural armor, gross physical abilities, etc.

The same goes for Polymorph, btw, since it defaults to Alter Self on that rule.

I'm interested to hear from others if I've somehow misinterpreted the above.

And yet if one gets re-incarnated, they keep the human bonus feat, as well as any skill points already spent, figure that one out. :rolleyes:
clannagh
01-31-07, 08:24 PM I find it interesting that on the D&D boards the majority of opinion seems to be that Polymorph is completely broken, and the new errata proves it.

Broken on the main boards often equates to:

"can be abused by clever power builders who harass home game DM's into letting them stretch the limits of the rules"

in other case like spiked chain complaints its more "i do not like xxx it doesnt suit my concept of proper D&D"

then there are things that really are broken .. like Planar Shepherd
magebeast
01-31-07, 09:44 PM Well, does the PrC only require you to be of a particular race to take it? Does it have rules for ex-of that class? Does that class specify that you lose the powers of that class if you're no longer a member of that race?

It seems like the description of the PrC in question would rule here.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vanadium 01-12-07, 06:45 PM	Okay, I am unsure how this might work in Living Greyhawk due to the fact that we don't use all of the Polymorph errata, so here I go. Let's say I have a prestige class that is dependant on race (say, Wildrunner). If I use a polymorph effect on him, would he lose all the benefits of that prestige class? I guess its the same for racially-dependant feats, but the prestige class seems more common. While we're at it, what happens if I use Alter Self as a human? Do I lose my human feat and skill points like with that errata? What if I Alter Self into a human when not a human myself? Human to another Human? I think I know all the answers to these by the rules of general D&D, but I am unsure about how things happen here. Then again, the last time I knew how polymorph worked it was when it seemed that everything was racial (like the human feat and skill points). I don't even know if anything has changed since then.
SgtHulka 01-14-07, 09:53 PM	Let's say I have a prestige class that is dependant on race (say, Wildrunner). If I use a polymorph effect on him, would he lose all the benefits of that prestige class? I guess its the same for racially-dependant feats, but the prestige class seems more common. With Alter Self, your creature Type and Subtype remain the same, regardless of the form you acquire. I'm not seeing where Polymorph changes that, so I'd assume it defaults to alter self and your Type and Subtype remain the same. If that's the case, I wouldn't think you'd lose prestige classes based on race, since you'd still be that race albeit in a different form. While we're at it, what happens if I use Alter Self as a human? Do I lose my human feat and skill points like with that errata? What if I Alter Self into a human when not a human myself? Human to another Human? I believe the answer to all of the above is "yes". From Alter Self: You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. If you look in the monster manual, "Racial Traits" are under the "Special Qualities" line. That means you lose them all. If you're a human, you lose your bonus feat and skill points. If you're a Dwarf, you lose darkvision, stonecunning, bonus armor class against giants, etc., etc. In fact, if you Alter Selfed or Polymorphed into yourself, you would still lose it all, because you still lose special qualities but you don't gain any, except for natural armor, gross physical abilities, etc. The same goes for Polymorph, btw, since it defaults to Alter Self on that rule. I'm interested to hear from others if I've somehow misinterpreted the above.
chesspiece 01-19-07, 09:14 AM	Let's say I have a prestige class that is dependant on race (say, Wildrunner). If I use a polymorph effect on him, would he lose all the benefits of that prestige class? I guess its the same for racially-dependant feats, but the prestige class seems more common. Here's a fun fact. If all there is at the table is the 3 Core books, then loss of a PRC Prereq does not strip you of any PRC abilities. There is no such rule in the 3.5DMG (although there was in the 3.0DMG). I only know of two Complete books (Warrior and Divine, IIRC) that contain the rule - although I haven't checked Mage and don't own Scoundrel or Race / Environment books. So far, I have yet to hear a LG stance on this topic. Likely options include: a) Rule is in effect always b) Rule is in effect if anyone at the table has a book containing the rule c) Rule is only in effect for PRCs taken from books with this rule d) Rule is always in effect if the latest splatbook contains it, but never in effect if the latest splatbook omits it (better check Complete Scoundrel) Which means the correct answer is: e) Expect table variation. ;)
trollbill 01-19-07, 09:52 AM	According to the SRD Polymorph listing: The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. I am pretty sure that this would mean you can no longer use Feats that have your original race as a Prereq. PRCs I don't think that holds true for. Though if, for some reason this proved perminant, you probably couldn't advance. But I would expect some table variance. In fact, if you Alter Selfed or Polymorphed into yourself, you would still lose it all, because you still lose special qualities but you don't gain any, except for natural armor, gross physical abilities, etc. Fortunately this isn't a problem for humans in LG since, according to the LGSC, you cannot polymorph into one.
SgtHulka 01-21-07, 09:56 AM	Thanks for the reference, Trollbill. I thought I had seen something to that effect in Polymorph but when I looked it up again I missed it. So, yeah, you'd lose your prestige class goodies. I find it interesting that on the D&D boards the majority of opinion seems to be that Polymorph is completely broken, and the new errata proves it. Yet in Living Greyhawk finding someone willing to be polymorphed is quite difficult. No one wants to lose their equipment and/or bonus feats and/or characteristic-dependent feats and/or (now that Trollbill's pointed it out to me) prestige class bonuses. Granted, in LG you don't have access to Monster Manual II-IV and Fiend Folio creatures, but are those beasties really so powerful as to break polymorph? Or is it persistant spell that breaks it?
Nutation 01-22-07, 05:10 PM	Granted, in LG you don't have access to Monster Manual II-IV and Fiend Folio creatures, but are those beasties really so powerful as to break polymorph? The books alone are enough. As a simple example, imagine being able to Alter Self into an avorel (winged elf) from Races of Faerun. That's flight for 10min/level as a 2nd level spell in addition to your other options for natural armor, swim speed, etc.
bitznarf 01-29-07, 03:36 PM	IIRC, LG does not use the most recent polymorph errata, and thus figuring polymorph in general can get a bit wonky. Come to think of it, this might be a subject worth including in the CY597 LGCS; at the very least some sort of official compilation of which polymorph rules are being used. On a side note, (once again IIRC) the alternate rules and/or new rules that work differently in the splat books vs. the Core books are not required to be used by the judge at the table. The best one can do is bring the book with the rule and ask if you can use it at the table (barring a Circle ruling such as the much debated [Evil] = evil act).
bitznarf 01-29-07, 03:40 PM	You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. If you look in the monster manual, "Racial Traits" are under the "Special Qualities" line. That means you lose them all. If you're a human, you lose your bonus feat and skill points. If you're a Dwarf, you lose darkvision, stonecunning, bonus armor class against giants, etc., etc. In fact, if you Alter Selfed or Polymorphed into yourself, you would still lose it all, because you still lose special qualities but you don't gain any, except for natural armor, gross physical abilities, etc. The same goes for Polymorph, btw, since it defaults to Alter Self on that rule. I'm interested to hear from others if I've somehow misinterpreted the above. And yet if one gets re-incarnated, they keep the human bonus feat, as well as any skill points already spent, figure that one out. :rolleyes:
clannagh 01-31-07, 08:24 PM	I find it interesting that on the D&D boards the majority of opinion seems to be that Polymorph is completely broken, and the new errata proves it. Broken on the main boards often equates to: "can be abused by clever power builders who harass home game DM's into letting them stretch the limits of the rules" in other case like spiked chain complaints its more "i do not like xxx it doesnt suit my concept of proper D&D" then there are things that really are broken .. like Planar Shepherd
magebeast 01-31-07, 09:44 PM	Well, does the PrC only require you to be of a particular race to take it? Does it have rules for ex-of that class? Does that class specify that you lose the powers of that class if you're no longer a member of that race? It seems like the description of the PrC in question would rule here.