Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrystalBlue 12-29-06, 05:16 PM	I'm sure this was brough up before, but it begs repeating for me. The whole thing on spell storing has always been sketchy for me. This is how I inturperate the rules... Any 3rd level or lower spell can be put into a spell stored item. It needs to be a targeted spell. And, no matter who casts the spell into the weapon, it is always at the lowest possible caster level for the purpose of damage and spell resistance. Is this right? I have a hard time beleiving such a cool enchantment is now so...very very dull... :(
budleiser 12-30-06, 01:35 AM	I'm sure this was brough up before, but it begs repeating for me. The whole thing on spell storing has always been sketchy for me. This is how I inturperate the rules... Any 3rd level or lower spell can be put into a spell stored item. It needs to be a targeted spell. And, no matter who casts the spell into the weapon, it is always at the lowest possible caster level for the purpose of damage and spell resistance. Is this right? I have a hard time beleiving such a cool enchantment is now so...very very dull... :( I made that thread here it is: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=713462 To summarize 2 pages and dozens of arguments. No one knows. Either its set to caster level 12, set to original caster, or set to minimium. So go there read up on it and come to your own conclusion and be ready to present your case to the DM.
kjenks 01-01-07, 09:55 AM	I made that thread here it is: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=713462 To summarize 2 pages and dozens of arguments. No one knows. Either its set to caster level 12, set to original caster, or set to minimium. So go there read up on it and come to your own conclusion and be ready to present your case to the DM. To contradict your summary: I know. It's CL 12, or CL 15 if the weapon has a +5 enhancement bonus. The DMG rules are reasonably unambiguous. But do go there and read up on it. You'll see what I mean.
budleiser 01-01-07, 10:49 AM	To contradict your summary: I know. It's CL 12, or CL 15 if the weapon has a +5 enhancement bonus. The DMG rules are reasonably unambiguous. But do go there and read up on it. You'll see what I mean. Correct as you may be, everyone else seems to disagree. So until I see a more official ruling, or you gain an official title, I expect DM's to rule in a number of ways. I am ok with your ruling. I am also ok with a DM saying its based on original caster. However if they try and say it comes out at min I will argue my case.
kjenks 01-01-07, 11:22 AM	I just don't get it. Why would you promote a point of view that contradicts the rules? Why would you be "ok with a DM saying its based on original caster" -- when there's no support for that in the rules?
Japangirl 01-01-07, 01:26 PM	I shouldn't do this, I shouldn't reignite the debate that raged in the other thread. But here goes anyways. The reason people think it comes out at caster level is because it went in at caster level. We know who cast it and what their caster level is, and the spell-storing enchant does just that. It stores spells. And it looks to me like it stores spells with no change at all in the spell as it was cast. The spell was cast into the weapon at a certain caster level, and I can find nowhere that says it should suddenly pop out in a weakened version when used. Magic items that cast spells always use min caster level, unless stated otherwise. But the weapon isn't exactly casting the spell, it's merely storing someone else's casting until a later time. Or so I read it. There is much room for debate, of course, but to say that the rules are obvious is not true.
budleiser 01-01-07, 01:34 PM	I just don't get it. Why would you promote a point of view that contradicts the rules? Why would you be "ok with a DM saying its based on original caster" -- when there's no support for that in the rules? Because I don't feel like arguing with every DM? If there was an easy to quote Dispel Confusion, FAQ, or errata its easy to print it out and say "see here official explanation" but no we don't have that. What we do have is a 2 page thread arguing for 3 different effects. I expect DM's to make mistakes. If out of 3 solutions they choose one of the best 2, so be it. If they choose min CL then I will argue. Otherwise its too much work for too little gain. If this were run as a tournament game, the way these books are written and the lack of authoritative answers to rules questions would make me quit. I wish it was structured better, I wish the rules were condensed into better PDF's and available for free. I wish someone with authority would answer EVERY rules question, and we could use this game to compete for cash and prizes. But no. I don't expect the D&D system to evolve into something like that. (If anyone wants to hire me to create such a system contact me on my website www.LocalGaming.net)
kjenks 01-01-07, 05:26 PM	The spell was cast into the weapon at a certain caster level, and I can find nowhere that says it should suddenly pop out in a weakened version when used. Bah. The rules I quoted in that other thread show exactly why the spell comes out at a fixed CL. For some spellcasters, CL out @ 12th is lower than CL in. For others, it's higher. Magic items that cast spells always use min caster level, unless stated otherwise. But the weapon isn't exactly casting the spell, it's merely storing someone else's casting until a later time. Or so I read it. There is much room for debate, of course, but to say that the rules are obvious is not true. Okay, the rules are obvious to me. Why they're not obvious to you, I have no idea. After reading the rules, I don't see any real room for debate. If you want to debate it, knock yourself out. But please don't tell a poor, unsuspecting DM that your Spell Storing weapon works as CL out = CL in, or CL out = minimum CL, because those are "obviously" not trule. If your DM is hazy on the rules, ask him to review them and tell *you* the CL of the spell. It might help to show him that other thread.
Japangirl 01-01-07, 05:59 PM	I also argued extensively in that other thread :-/. And came to different conclusions than you did. I do not know why it is CL 12, other than that to craft the weapon you have to be Caster Level 12. All other magic items have caster level requirements too. It does have that little extra "creator must be a caster of at least 12th level" but I really do not know why. Perhaps to prevent a lower level spellcaster from helping? There are lots of rules that have to be referenced in order to figure out exactly how spell storing works, and some of them are open to interpretation. The text of the weapon enhancement is certainly open to interpretation and whether you put more weight on RAW or probable intent. I obviously feel I am correct, but at least I am willing to admit that it is a matter where the rules are not settled and table variation is to be expected because of all the varying interpretations.
kjenks 01-02-07, 04:41 AM	I just don't see any other way of interpreting it. SRD === Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. === And the caster level of a Spell Storing weapon is listed as "CL 12th." So how else can you interpret that? What's your logic?
CrystalBlue 01-02-07, 08:25 AM	*whimpers* Didn't know this was going to do this...sorry. The only reason I asked this was because I have seen every DM use the ruling that every spell cast into a magic weapon is cast out as the lowest possible caster level. When you look at that, it's very underpowered at higher levels. And here's why I don't buy the 12th level rule. When you look at the spell storing ability, it has an enhancement bonus of +1. You could get this at around level 5 or 6 if you've been saving up. Then, you look at the output of the spells. It's at caster level 12. Take something like Magic Missile, for example. That's around 5d4+5 points of damage for a first level spell. That could be cast into a weapon by a level 1 wizard. How do you account for the amplified damage? I just don't see it making much sense. Now, I don't want to debate this anymore then it needs to be, but I needed to know this for sure. My cleric would like to keep spells saved up in his sword for emergencies. Not waste spells that would be doing more damage if he himself cast them.
zigspatty 01-02-07, 01:23 PM	Expect table variation. Ken is very sure that the spell will come out at 12th level, which is great if you're sitting at his table (or that of someone he's persuaded). But I think it's more common to find judges that rule that the spell comes out at either minimum caster level or the level of its original caster. The Circle is not likely to rule on this ambiguity - though we can always hope the Sage will issue a FAQ about it. So when you sit down at a table with your spell storing weapon, ask your judge's ruling at the beginning so you'll know before it's crucial to someone's survival whether that MM does 1d4+1 or 5d4+5 or something in between. Patty
kjenks 01-03-07, 01:26 AM	So where the heck is this ambiguity you're talking about? Other than making a mistake, why would a DM rule any way other than what those rules say?
viceregal 01-03-07, 05:52 PM	*whimpers* Didn't know this was going to do this...sorry. The only reason I asked this was because I have seen every DM use the ruling that every spell cast into a magic weapon is cast out as the lowest possible caster level. When you look at that, it's very underpowered at higher levels. And here's why I don't buy the 12th level rule. When you look at the spell storing ability, it has an enhancement bonus of +1. You could get this at around level 5 or 6 if you've been saving up. Then, you look at the output of the spells. It's at caster level 12. Take something like Magic Missile, for example. That's around 5d4+5 points of damage for a first level spell. That could be cast into a weapon by a level 1 wizard. How do you account for the amplified damage? I just don't see it making much sense. Now, I don't want to debate this anymore then it needs to be, but I needed to know this for sure. My cleric would like to keep spells saved up in his sword for emergencies. Not waste spells that would be doing more damage if he himself cast them. Disclaimer - yes I have a spell storing weapon (both ends of a quarterstaff) and yes it is in the hands of a character with Enlightened Fist levels (the 7th of which allows you to change ray spells to targetted ones thus useful for spell storing weapons) Just came across this discussion (and read the previous thread linked) and a couple of comments ..... 1) The CL to craft is exactly that - the CL to craft it - it has nothing in this case to do with the level of the spell (if that was the case then, as already pointed out, the ring and the stone are both wrong as the stone is CL12 but its spells are treated *explicetly* as CL Min). 2) Just becasue there is a similarity of naming does not mean it is the same thing - in fact the fact that the ring and the stone both state that it works on CL min implies both that the weapon is fine and that the normal way to treat the concept is CL in = CL out (otherwise why the need to specify what must be a differnce in the desc?) 3) Ring of FOM, Ring of FF etc ie the ones that work under the oft quoted (in Ken's posts) ref that when all the item does is run a spell it gets no extra desc and is to use the min CL for that spell. Well ... a) there is more than just a name but an actual desc so that does not apply, b) it is not just casting a specific named spell but has the ability to hold a spell put into it. 4) When we find an item with spells already stored in it we are to assume min CL as is normal for items we find .... but in this case we know exactly where the spell in question came from and what it's level is - and we already have a principle in place where the person creating gets to choose (eg scroll crafting you choose the level and pay accordingly - a wand you can do the same but not higher than 4th) so as long as you meet the items prereqs (ie I can store a spell for you but only if it is targetted and 3rd level or lower) you can do what you like 5) The enhancement is only +1. This is fine for holding a spell to be delivered but seems (subjectively) a little high for allowing it to heighten the spell up to 11 levels (if you use the casts-at-lvl-12 option), emulate class/race/PrC/level/attribute (if you take it that the weapon is the one actively casting not the passively casting on behalf of the wielder acting as agent for the caster (if a differnt person)), etc etc etc! It stores a spell - and that spell exists because of the attributes of the caster ... who then casts the spell temporarily into the holding pattern that is the spell storing weapon. 6) In practice I have found two things ..... the first is the DM's initially resist the idea (based around the idea that the weapon casts the spell and the weapon is not a 7th lvl enlighted fist so the ray spell cant fit etc ... but that same logic would also disallow the use of eg inflict serious wounds as the weapon is not a cleric etc.) The other thing is that along the same lines as with the use of the blasphemy line of spells ... if I don't put a scorching ray into each end and use it in a single flurry (which along with the normal casting as part of full round action gives 36d6 on top of any other damage normal for the hits) then they won't have every monster try and sunder it as their first actions! It also makes it a little boring for everyting else if all they do is sit and watch dice roll etc). The main thing I use it for, in that sense, is to have electrical versions of scorching ray for those pesky fire immunes, ray of enfeeb or a cure spell if there is only one healer in the party to be used as an emergency fix etc! 7) The common consensus (and really the simplest to run) seems to be targetted only (ie no rays - of you want more go spellword), third effective level max, and CL in = CL out. I realise that this will not convince Ken etc (although I don't think the issue of the heighten equivalent cost had been mentioned before) but to be honest I get more table variation out of the way my Spirit Shaman's quick reconoitter feat works than I do out of this! :) Warren
kjenks 01-03-07, 08:39 PM	1) The CL to craft is exactly that - the CL to craft it - it has nothing in this case to do with the level of the spell Can you back this up? Do you know of any place in the rules that actually says this? I realise that this will not convince Ken etc (although I don't think the issue of the heighten equivalent cost had been mentioned before) but to be honest I get more table variation out of the way my Spirit Shaman's quick reconoitter feat works than I do out of this! :) Warren Arguments about what your DM does or equivalent cost or game balance or whatever don't convince me at all. What would convince me is finding a rule that modifies or contradicts what I've already quoted. Failing that, I've gotta believe that CL out = 12th.
viceregal 01-03-07, 09:25 PM	Can you back this up? Do you know of any place in the rules that actually says this? Arguments about what your DM does or equivalent cost or game balance or whatever don't convince me at all. What would convince me is finding a rule that modifies or contradicts what I've already quoted. Failing that, I've gotta believe that CL out = 12th. Let's see .... the CL to craft arms and armour effext 'x' doesn't mean that you have to be that level to actually use it just to craft it and the reflex save used is independent of the creator's one and even unattended doesn't get base-reflex-save-for-a-min-level-of-caster etc.... [pauses] Actually rather than me try and think of 1000 different places where CL means the caster level needed to create an item (which is after all the base meaning of the term when speaking of crafting) - can you give me three examples of items where the effect is interactive (not static) and where the listed CL of the items creation is explicitly used to overcome the otherwise standard usage of the action? Knowing that the creator normally sets the level and functionality of a magic item I am unclear as to why you need to have it proven that in this case the caster may not do so when there is no relevant rules specifying that this particular case needs to be an exception? (especially since such an exception already exisits in other forms of the effect). Btw are you happy to acknowledge that CL in = CL out makes mechanical and logical sense but you want written legal proof of that before you will run it that way or do you really believe there is something inherently wrong with it?
kjenks 01-03-07, 10:22 PM	Actually rather than me try and think of 1000 different places where CL means the caster level needed to create an item (which is after all the base meaning of the term when speaking of crafting) - can you give me three examples of items where the effect is interactive (not static) and where the listed CL of the items creation is explicitly used to overcome the otherwise standard usage of the action? How about I show you the rules for caster level of spells from weapons? They're different from the caster level of spells from other items. SRD === Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. === And the description for the Spell Storing ability says "CL 12th." So, unless you can find a contradictory rule, the spell comes out at CL 12th. Therefore, a +1 Spell Storing longsword with a Inflict Serious Wounds wounds spell could cast an ISW spell at CL 12th for 3d8+12 points of damage (Will save DC 14 for half). (If the weapon happens to have a +5 enhancement bonus on it, the spell comes out at CL 15th, but +5 weapons are relatively rare.) Here's another situation for you to ponder. A fighter is wielding a +1 Speed shortsword. The enemy cleric casts Dispel Magic, targeting the shortsword. What is the CL that the cleric needs to beat to deactivate the sword for a while? Here's a quote from the Dispel Magic description: "If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own." So what's the "item's caster level" for a +1 Speed shortsword? I think the answer's pretty easy: the Speed ability says CL 7th. Do you have any reason to think the +1 Speed shortsword should have a different caster level than the CL listed in the ability description? So why would you think that a +1 Spell Storing longsword should have a different caster level than the CL listed in the ability description? Btw are you happy to acknowledge that CL in = CL out makes mechanical and logical sense but you want written legal proof of that before you will run it that way or do you really believe there is something inherently wrong with it? Nope. I'm not looking for mechanical or logical sense, just what the rules say. Those pesky rules are often illogical, but we're supposed to follow 'em, and that's what I'm trying to do. I'm sure that CL = 12th for a Spell Storing weapon.
viceregal 01-03-07, 11:36 PM	How about I show you the rules for caster level of spells from weapons? They're different from the caster level of spells from other items. SRD === Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. === And the description for the Spell Storing ability says "CL 12th." So, unless you can find a contradictory rule, the spell comes out at CL 12th. Therefore, a +1 Spell Storing longsword with a Inflict Serious Wounds wounds spell could cast an ISW spell at CL 12th for 3d8+12 points of damage (Will save DC 14 for half). (If the weapon happens to have a +5 enhancement bonus on it, the spell comes out at CL 15th, but +5 weapons are relatively rare.) Here's another situation for you to ponder. A fighter is wielding a +1 Speed shortsword. The enemy cleric casts Dispel Magic, targeting the shortsword. What is the CL that the cleric needs to beat to deactivate the sword for a while? Here's a quote from the Dispel Magic description: "If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own." So what's the "item's caster level" for a +1 Speed shortsword? I think the answer's pretty easy: the Speed ability says CL 7th. Do you have any reason to think the +1 Speed shortsword should have a different caster level than the CL listed in the ability description? So why would you think that a +1 Spell Storing longsword should have a different caster level than the CL listed in the ability description? Nope. I'm not looking for mechanical or logical sense, just what the rules say. Those pesky rules are often illogical, but we're supposed to follow 'em, and that's what I'm trying to do. I'm sure that CL = 12th for a Spell Storing weapon. Dispel Magic to supress the spell strong enhancment and the +1 enhancement = vs CL 12 Caster Level needed to craft the weapon with that enhancement = 12. So in terms of that I agree with you entirely! :) Maybe the issue is the use of the word 'cast' in the desc - ie that the weapon casts the spell ..... to me that means that the weapon takes the same place in the activation cycle that a PC normally takes when casting a spell from a scroll - ie someone else, using their abilities and levels etc, placed that in the form of his choice into a scroll (ie he casts the spell but it does not go off until the activation condition is met). Another character, meeting the prerequisites (in this case having the attribute, and spell list capability to do the spell or UMD etc, taking out the scroll, and saying the actiavting word) casts the spell. In the case of the scoll (eg a scroll of charm person) there would be no suggestion that the victim thinks that the scroll is pretty etc but rather that the person who activated it is. In the spell storing weapon the caster again using his abilities and class features places it in the form of his choice not into a scroll but into the weapon with the activation now not being on the basis of a command word but a hit with the weapon. The spell goes off affecting the one hit and any interactions link back to the wielder. The other main option for interpretting the casting (ie that the weapon is wholy responsible for the level of the spell and its consequences) to me implies that the spell storing enhancement, rather than merely storing the spell actually grants intelligence and the ability to cast spells to the weapon. *wonders how many ranks in UMD would you need to emulate being a 12 lvl caster with 7 levels of EF (which has two pre-req classes and other feats) , cha/int 12 etc* The weapon has the ability to store - *I* have the ability to cast spells - I can use that 'spell pocket' to mind a spell for me and deliver it in either my or someone else's hand.
kjenks 01-04-07, 08:37 AM	Dispel Magic to supress the spell strong enhancment and the +1 enhancement = vs CL 12 Caster Level needed to craft the weapon with that enhancement = 12. So in terms of that I agree with you entirely! :) So now take a look at this rule, from the section at the front of the magic item section. SRD === • Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). === Since you and I agree that, for a +1 Spell Storing longsword, the "level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell" is CL 12, I hope you can you find your way over to the viewpoint that the same "caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable)." See what I mean?
CrystalBlue 01-04-07, 09:25 AM	Oooo...but I got a good one for you. Without my books at work, this becomes hard. However, I pose this to you. If you beleive that a weapon has the abilities of a 12th level caster when it has spellstoring...then we can obviously say that the weapon is a caster. Now...look up the spell Imbue with Spell-Like Ability. This spell allows others to cast a select number of spells that a caster allows them to. This is much like spell storing, but in people instead. Now...what happens when an imbued person casts a spell? What DC and CL are they when they come out of the imbued person?
kjenks 01-04-07, 09:55 AM	Oooo...but I got a good one for you. Without my books at work, this becomes hard. However, I pose this to you. If you beleive that a weapon has the abilities of a 12th level caster when it has spellstoring...then we can obviously say that the weapon is a caster. The Spell Storing ability description says that that the weapon is the caster. "Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires." This leads to an amusing situation if you store a Charm Person spell. "Ouch! Ooh, I really, really like that sword you just hit me with!" And, if you store a Vampiric Touch spell, the sword can gain temporary hit points. Strange, eh? Now...look up the spell Imbue with Spell-Like Ability. This spell allows others to cast a select number of spells that a caster allows them to. This is much like spell storing, but in people instead. Now...what happens when an imbued person casts a spell? What DC and CL are they when they come out of the imbued person? The System Reference Document (SRD) lets you look up lots of stuff on-line, which is especially handy when you don't have your books with you. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 SRD === Imbue with Spell Ability Evocation Level: Clr 4, Magic 4 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Touch Target: Creature touched; see text Duration: Permanent until discharged (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You transfer some of your currently prepared spells, and the ability to cast them, to another creature. Only a creature with an Intelligence score of at least 5 and a Wisdom score of at least 9 can receive this bestowal. Only cleric spells from the schools of abjuration, divination, and conjuration (healing) can be transferred. The number and level of spells that the subject can be granted depends on its Hit Dice; even multiple castings of imbue with spell ability can’t exceed this limit. HD of Recipient Spells Imbued 2 or lower One 1st-level spell 3–4 One or two 1st-level spells 5 or higher One or two 1st-level spells and one 2nd-level spell The transferred spell’s variable characteristics (range, duration, area, and the like) function according to your level, not the level of the recipient. Once you cast imbue with spell ability, you cannot prepare a new 4th-level spell to replace it until the recipient uses the imbued spells or is slain, or until you dismiss the imbue with spell ability spell. In the meantime, you remain responsible to your deity or your principles for the use to which the spell is put. If the number of 4th-level spells you can cast decreases, and that number drops below your current number of active imbue with spell ability spells, the more recently cast imbued spells are dispelled. To cast a spell with a verbal component, the subject must be able to speak. To cast a spell with a somatic component, it must have humanlike hands. To cast a spell with a material component or focus, it must have the materials or focus. === (I added the bold to highlight the rule you're seeking.) CrystalBlue, your post looks like you're trying to imply that the Spell Storing weapon special ability should work something like the Imbue with Spell Ability spell. They are somewhat similar, but they have different game mechanics. One difference that I see is who (or what) is considered to be the spellcaster. Another difference is the caster level. For the Imbue with Spell Ability spell, CL out = CL in, as shown above. For the Spell storing weapon special ability, CL out = 12th (or 15th, if it's a +5 weapon), as shown previously.
katrick 01-04-07, 10:18 AM	Check out Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability 6th lvl, redone in SpC it runs off caster level of inputter and can only use spells up to 1\4 of spell casters level (ie max 3rd level spells for a 12th level caster) Now to the other major ARGU: in LG you cannot start with spells stored you have to cast them in game, ergo you have to know the casters level etc cause they have to be at the game (or in case of a cert it is stated on said cert) To several asides my 15th Sorc has several rings of counterspell and he is purchasing more (this requires no action or even knowledge on the wearers part: CL 11 up to 6th lvl spells) and he generally casts Greater dispel into one and Dispel into the other (as they don't counteract according to item desc) the usual suspects in our games usually soak up 7 or so slots at the beginning of every game we then usually rest for the day get heroes feast at midnight Extended(24hrs) and then head out on our mission fully refreshed My 6th lvl bitsa whom has just purchased a spell storing weapon(so far unused) with only 3 lvls wiz was going to use it for shocking grasp, now with Prac Spellcaster 5d6(max). But any targeted spell at min is the same price for upgrade (ie 1d6 per hit, fair enough) but at 12th lvl caster Vampiric touch (which i don't have yet) would grant me 6d6 damage + same in temp Hp just a little out of range as it would no doubt be more temp Hp than i had Hp to begin with. One question begs to be asked what is a targeted spell !! under aiming spells in the PH pg 175 it says must be able to see or touch target, so try on a 12th lvl caster 3rd lvl Bard spell, Confusion at 7th. Spell Storing dagger with CSW for the halfling thrower anyone -1d4-2 +3d8+12( or enlarge person for the swallowing critters after Grapple of course) Lsr Rest,or flipside Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, Empowered Magic Missile CL12 from a 5th lvl wiz 5d4+5*1.5 If min caster lvl then heightened spell actually becomes useful Are all the orb spells targeted (range touch attacks)??? If run as caster in, caster out does their Healing Domain and Feat of Augmented Healing count, does Daylight from a Pelorite double as they don't raise caster lvl. Remember +weapon damage, Power Attack, Strength + special weapon properties and other enhancements. Quick Draw: multiply these effects!! The list goes on. IMO best weapon upgrade ever even at min caster lvl because its only limited by your imagination and PARTY resources(including certs) marty
budleiser 01-04-07, 10:30 AM	I got it because it would be fun. I wouldn't call it the best upgrade ever. Everytime you use the ability you need to cast into it again to get another use out of it. So you get some upfront damage or ability. Personally I think Holy, Vicious, Mercy are great enhancements. I got spellstoring instead because it would be super fun.
kjenks 01-04-07, 10:34 AM	One question begs to be asked what is a targeted spell !! That would be a spell with a Target: entry in its spell block. See the PHB section on AIMING A SPELL at the beginning of the list of spell descriptions. SRD === Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells. Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. ===
kjenks 01-04-07, 10:38 AM	My 6th lvl bitsa whom has just purchased a spell storing weapon(so far unused) with only 3 lvls wiz was going to use it for shocking grasp, now with Prac Spellcaster 5d6(max). But any targeted spell at min is the same price for upgrade (ie 1d6 per hit, fair enough) but at 12th lvl caster Vampiric touch (which i don't have yet) would grant me 6d6 damage + same in temp Hp just a little out of range as it would no doubt be more temp Hp than i had Hp to begin with. Since the weapon itself is considered to be the spellcaster, that Vampiric Touch spell would grant the WEAPON those temporary HP, not the wielder.
katrick 01-04-07, 12:24 PM	alright Sunder be damned thanx ken marty
viceregal 01-04-07, 08:11 PM	Since you and I agree that, for a +1 Spell Storing longsword, the "level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell" is CL 12, I hope you can you find your way over to the viewpoint that the same "caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable)." See what I mean? I do see where you are coming fron - except that I am viewing the power that the item has in this case is the ability to store targetted spells up to third level and release them upon striking and you are viewing it that the power of the item is to become a full fledged spellcaster in its own right! Since the weapon itself is considered to be the spellcaster, that Vampiric Touch spell would grant the WEAPON those temporary HP, not the wielder. How would you suggest the weapon actually does this - does it magically (pun intended) align itself to the alignment, classs, and level of the caster of the spell or does it gain those elements from the original spellcaster?
kjenks 01-05-07, 08:22 AM	I do see where you are coming fron - except that I am viewing the power that the item has in this case is the ability to store targetted spells up to third level and release them upon striking and you are viewing it that the power of the item is to become a full fledged spellcaster in its own right! Well, you simply must stop that "viewing the power" stuff. That actually has no place in a debate about the Core rules in LG. In a home game, when you're the DM, you have the right and responsibility to adjust the power level of your campaign. In LG, that's not our job. The Circle can and does make decisions about the Core rules based on power and game balance. We DMs and players are just supposed to follow the rules that they give us. So I'm deaf to any argument about power level and campaign balance, here. How would you suggest the weapon actually does this - does it magically (pun intended) align itself to the alignment, classs, and level of the caster of the spell or does it gain those elements from the original spellcaster? Again, that's not something I'm concerned about at all. It's magic.
CrystalBlue 01-05-07, 09:30 AM	He's not talking about the power of the campaign or anything relating to the overall rules of the world. He's talking about a static definition that every game should go by. We're getting hung up on what the sword is called when the spell is cast into it and then out of it again. So we need to worry about that. That's the big concern. Just for clarification, list the Spell Storing description here, along with the money, caster level, and spell needed to craft it, please. And please convince me that the weapon is a caster. With an arguement other then "It just is the caster." That's not working for you anymore.
Mithreinmaethor 01-05-07, 06:32 PM	So where the heck is this ambiguity you're talking about? Other than making a mistake, why would a DM rule any way other than what those rules say? Maybe because the rule you quote is for the creation of the weapon and the enchantment that holds the spell. It has no bearing at all on how the spell is spent when released from the weapon
kjenks 01-05-07, 11:50 PM	Maybe because the rule you quote is for the creation of the weapon and the enchantment that holds the spell. It has no bearing at all on how the spell is spent when released from the weapon Sure it does. DMG page 215. The SRD version is: SRD === • Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). ===
kjenks 01-05-07, 11:56 PM	He's not talking about the power of the campaign or anything relating to the overall rules of the world. He's talking about a static definition that every game should go by. We're getting hung up on what the sword is called when the spell is cast into it and then out of it again. So we need to worry about that. That's the big concern. Just for clarification, list the Spell Storing description here, along with the money, caster level, and spell needed to craft it, please. Sigh. It's in your DMG, page 225. Here's the SRD version: Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already. Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus. And here's a link to the SRD: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 And please convince me that the weapon is a caster. With an arguement other then "It just is the caster." That's not working for you anymore. Re-read that Spell Storing ability description. "Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires." There you have it. The weapon casts the spell. It just is the caster.
Howie23 01-06-07, 02:51 AM	In the interest of completeness, this passage: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). Has been errata'd. David
kjenks 01-06-07, 08:46 AM	In the interest of completeness, this passage: Has been errata'd. David DMG Errata === Caster Level Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215 Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading. Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. === ...which has no impact on this discussion because "the prerequisites given" is "CL 12th."
Mithreinmaethor 01-06-07, 09:03 AM	In the interest of completeness, this passage: Has been errata'd. David And here it is even. Not sure how it will affect the thread. But here it is none the less ..... Caster Level Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215 Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading. Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
Howie23 01-06-07, 11:17 AM	DMG Errata === Caster Level Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215 Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading. Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. === ...which has no impact on this discussion because "the prerequisites given" is "CL 12th." In general, it has two minor impacts, although one is self correcting. As prefaced in my OP, this is in the interest of completeness 1) Per the Core rules (and thus how any official answer on on this would be provided), caster level is not a prerequisite to item creation in the general case. This means, such questions devolve from WotC to Circle, as Circle has houseruled the CL prerequisite. It is self correcting for this item, because the item has an explicit CL12 requirement, not just the CL12 listing. 2) When this discussion comes up, you highlight the statement that the caster level is determined by the weapon. This does not exist in the core rules via errata, and LGs adoption of the CL as prerequisite doesn't change that. Rather, the caster level is determined by the creator of the weapon. In a retired year five mod, a 7th level caster at APL6 loaded up vampiric touch into a spell storing weapon. I do not think that the intent of the author nor Circle (which sanctioned the mod) was that the spell should be going off at 12th level, nor that the weapon was to gain the temporary hp. Does that say anything about the weapon? Nothing other than the perception of a single author and a single Circle member, now retired. In the event that they _did_ make a mistake, it's just that, a mistake. I prepped this mod to run for a party that fell apart, and had decided that there was no way that I was going to deliver a CL12 vampiric touch to 5th level PCs on the basis of this argument. Item 2) becomes moderately important because of the argument (presented as a thought exercise, I'm not endorsing it) that the caster who loads up the weapon is then the "creator" for the purpose of the spell's discharge. Just musing here...there is no direct RAW support for it. The essential problem through all of this discussion is that Ken has created a chain of logic that, as far as I can tell, is actually pretty strongly rooted in the RAW, but which goes against everything that everyone understands about the intent of the weapon enhancement. I suspect that it has found a seam in the rules, a spot where the designers had a disconnect, rather than having found what is really supposed to be happening. I tend to be fairly literal minded about the rules. I follow the RAW and the spirit, but admittedly give a lot more weight to the RAW. Off the top of my head, this is the one example where I bow to the spirit in the face of a RAW argument. I just do not think that the intent of the enhancement is to magnify the CL of the spell. David
budleiser 01-06-07, 12:07 PM	In general, it has two minor impacts, although one is self correcting. As prefaced in my OP, this is in the interest of completeness 1) Per the Core rules (and thus how any official answer on on this would be provided), caster level is not a prerequisite to item creation in the general case. This means, such questions devolve from WotC to Circle, as Circle has houseruled the CL prerequisite. It is self correcting for this item, because the item has an explicit CL12 requirement, not just the CL12 listing. 2) When this discussion comes up, you highlight the statement that the caster level is determined by the weapon. This does not exist in the core rules via errata, and LGs adoption of the CL as prerequisite doesn't change that. Rather, the caster level is determined by the creator of the weapon. In a retired year five mod, a 7th level caster at APL6 loaded up vampiric touch into a spell storing weapon. I do not think that the intent of the author nor Circle (which sanctioned the mod) was that the spell should be going off at 12th level, nor that the weapon was to gain the temporary hp. Does that anything about the weapon? Nothing other than the perception of a single author and a single Circle member, now retired. In the event that they _did_ make a mistake, it's just that, a mistake. I prepped this mod to run for a party that fell apart, and had decided that there was no way that I was going to deliver a CL12 vampiric touch to 5th level PCs on the basis of this argument. Item 2) becomes moderately important because of the argument (presented as a though exercise, I'm not endorsing it) that the caster who loads up the weapon is then the "creator" for the purpose of the spell's discharge. Just musing here...there is no direct RAW support for it. The essential problem through all of this discussion is that Ken has created a chain of logic that, as far as I can tell, is actually pretty strongly rooted in the RAW, but which goes against everything that everyone understands about the intent of the weapon enhancement. I suspect that it has found a seam in the rules, a spot where the designers had a disconnect, rather than having found what is really supposed to be happening. I tend to be fairly literal minded about the rules. I follow the RAW and the spirit, but admittedly give a lot more weight to the RAW. Off the top of my head, this is the one example where I bow to the spirit in the face of a RAW argument. I just do not think that the intent of the enhancement is to magnify the CL of the spell. David Well said, and explains my feelings. 99.9% of the time I want RAW. And I get upset when DM's don't follow or understand RAW. In this instance though I really think its Caster In = Caster Out. However RAW seem to be CL12. If the DM rules either way on this I am content. If they rule CLmin I'm upset.
Iswald 01-07-07, 11:14 PM	The essential problem through all of this discussion is that Ken has created a chain of logic that, as far as I can tell, is actually pretty strongly rooted in the RAW, but which goes against everything that everyone understands about the intent of the weapon enhancement. I suspect that it has found a seam in the rules, a spot where the designers had a disconnect, rather than having found what is really supposed to be happening. Given that some of Ken's arguments are based on material that is taken out of context, the strength of his argument is fairly weak. I would also say no RAW. For those who haven't figured it out yet, this is one of Ken's pet theory's that he won't give up. Unless you're bored, there's little value in trying to convince him that he is mistaken.
LCJJohnson 01-08-07, 03:17 AM	<delete> I'll post when I have 8 hours sleep behind me.
Britt 01-08-07, 04:08 AM	I probably shouldn't post in here, but oh well... There seem to be two points being argued here. One is whether the CL of the Spell Storing enchantment determines the CL of the spell that is released. Two is whether the weapon is the caster of the spell that is being released. I'm not going to take sides on either issue, but I am going to point out where the ambiguity is that Ken keeps asking for. 1. Ken is completely correct that the CL of the item determines the level-dependant effects of an enchantment. However, it is not as clear-cut as Ken makes it out to be. What are the effects of the enchantment? Does the enchantment merely store a spell and release it later, recast a spell, or something else? If the enchantment is casting a spell, the CL of the enchantment would probably determine the CL of the spell; however, as I will show in (2), this is not necessarily what is happening (see 2 for more on this). The Spell Storing enchantment could just be releasing the spell that was cast into it. If that's the case, what are the level-dependant effects of releasing or storing a spell? If the CL is higher, is the spell stored more effectively or released better? That doesn't seem to make much sense. If it is merely storing and releasing, the CL doesn't really matter except for dispel magic and crafting. You need to know exactly what the ability is doing before you know whether the CL impacts how the spell comes out. We don't know exactly what the ability is doing, so we don't know if the CL matters. 2. Is the weapon the caster of the spell? You have to be careful how you phrase this question and examine the item. Yes, it says the weapon may cast the spell, but does this equate to the weapon being the caster? You would think it does, but take a moment to think about scrolls. As we have discussed in another thread, casting a spell from a scroll does not exactly equate to casting the spell. There is precendent for the term being used in a way that does not equate to the weapon being the caster, and the weapon being the caster does not make much sense either. If that's the case, you wouldn't be able to put any spells into the weapon that had material, somatic, verbal, or focus components; the weapon can't use any of those and it is casting the spell. Obviously, that doesn't make much sense. The evidence seems to point to something other than the weapon being the caster of the spell, despite the phrasing of the ability. At the very least, the ability is somewhat ambiguous as to what is intended, when viewed in light of the similar issue for scrolls. In light of the ambiguities, it makes sense to look to similar abilities for guidance. That's not a conclusive source for rules either, but it is a valid idea. So, until the ambiguities are conclusively settled, any of the three interpretations seem to be possibly valid.
kjenks 01-08-07, 09:43 AM	I see that many people have trouble with these rules, but I still don't see this as ambiguous at all. There's nothing ambiguous about "CL 12th." And there's nothing ambiguous about who the caster is when "the weapon can immediately cast the spell."
CrystalBlue 01-08-07, 10:06 AM	Poor wording in the rules, lack of clarification of intent, logic...these are all valid reasons why this is still grey. I'm not saying your way is right or wrong. I'm saying that it's still not determined WHO is right or wrong. But you constantly think you are right just because 'The rules say so'. The rules say a lot of things, but there are some rules that PCs and DMs alike all agree are wrong the way they are written. Why are you so gung-ho about this one?
Samwise 01-08-07, 02:06 PM	Or ask CustServ just for the heck of it?
budleiser 01-08-07, 02:14 PM	Or ask CustServ just for the heck of it? In my original thread on this http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=713462 I asked if there was a higher authority to take this too. No one answered, they just kept arguing. Of course the only answer I've seen from them is "Ask your DM"
kjenks 01-08-07, 02:36 PM	I've asked. As usual, no response.
Samwise 01-08-07, 03:46 PM	I've asked. As usual, no response. Strange, I got one: Questions: When you use this enhancement: 1. Can you store ray effect spells in the weapon? (The text reads: "store a single targeted spell . . .") 2. Store a spell with Target: You ? 3. If the spell has an effect that includes the caster, such as Vampiric Touch, who get the benefit, the wielder of the weapon or the weapon itself? 4. What is the CL of a spell stored in a weapon? Is it the CL of the person who placed it in the weapon? Or is it the CL of the weapon? (As per the text of weapon enhancements and CL.) Or is it the minimum to cast the spell? (As per the default DMG rules.) 5. What is the save DC of a spell stored in a weapon? Is it the DC as if cast by the person who placed it in the weapon? Or is it the minimum required to cast the spell as per the default DMG rules? 6. Can you use Sudden <Metamagic> feats and Rods of <Metamagic> on spells placed in a spell storing weapon? What if this raises the level of the spell over 3rd? (Such as a sudden maximized vampiric touch.) 7. Slightly related, what is the general CL for other special effects from weapons and items like a rod of terror? Is it the minimum to cast the spell? Or is it the CL of the item? Answers: Thank you for contacting us. 1) Since there is no target, you could not use spells with an effect, instead of a target. 2) So long as there is a target entry in the description, yes. 3) The wielder of the weapon will gain the benefit. 4) It is at the Minimum required, unless specifically made by a higher level wizards, then it will be based on his wizards who cast the stored spell. 5) It is at the Minimum required, unless specifically made by a higher level wizards, then it will be based on his wizards who cast the stored spell. 6) Yes you can add the Metamagic feat to the spell before you store it. Only heighten will raise a spells level to above 3rd. 7) It is always the minimum needed to cast, unless otherwise specified. Note I use my usual overly detailed question format to try and cover as many obscure cases and subcases as I could. Also, this is from 11/17/06 when the thread started. I figured I'd wait to see if anyone else would ask first, and if anyone would accept the response. And yes, I'm aware that the grammar seems slightly off on the answers for 4 and 5. I did not request any follow up for it. It seems to indicate that you can make a spell storing weapon that works like a staff. Of course, that would constitute a new rule. If that part is deleted, it would leave the standard for all items (as per 7) applying for spell storing weapons. (Addition: It seems for whatever reason that I get more regular replies from CustServ than other people I ask. I suppose that balances that I never get replies from the Sage since my "infamous" Ride-By Attack question.)
budleiser 01-08-07, 03:52 PM	Strange, I got one: Questions: When you use this enhancement: 1. Can you store ray effect spells in the weapon? (The text reads: "store a single targeted spell . . .") 2. Store a spell with Target: You ? 3. If the spell has an effect that includes the caster, such as Vampiric Touch, who get the benefit, the wielder of the weapon or the weapon itself? 4. What is the CL of a spell stored in a weapon? Is it the CL of the person who placed it in the weapon? Or is it the CL of the weapon? (As per the text of weapon enhancements and CL.) Or is it the minimum to cast the spell? (As per the default DMG rules.) 5. What is the save DC of a spell stored in a weapon? Is it the DC as if cast by the person who placed it in the weapon? Or is it the minimum required to cast the spell as per the default DMG rules? 6. Can you use Sudden <Metamagic> feats and Rods of <Metamagic> on spells placed in a spell storing weapon? What if this raises the level of the spell over 3rd? (Such as a sudden maximized vampiric touch.) 7. Slightly related, what is the general CL for other special effects from weapons and items like a rod of terror? Is it the minimum to cast the spell? Or is it the CL of the item? Answers: Thank you for contacting us. 1) Since there is no target, you could not use spells with an effect, instead of a target. 2) So long as there is a target entry in the description, yes. 3) The wielder of the weapon will gain the benefit. 4) It is at the Minimum required, unless specifically made by a higher level wizards, then it will be based on his wizards who cast the stored spell. 5) It is at the Minimum required, unless specifically made by a higher level wizards, then it will be based on his wizards who cast the stored spell. 6) Yes you can add the Metamagic feat to the spell before you store it. Only heighten will raise a spells level to above 3rd. 7) It is always the minimum needed to cast, unless otherwise specified. Note I use my usual overly detailed question format to try and cover as many obscure cases and subcases as I could. Also, this is from 11/17/06 when the thread started. I figured I'd wait to see if anyone else would ask first, and if anyone would accept the response. And yes, I'm aware that the grammar seems slightly off on the answers for 4 and 5. I did not request any follow up for it. It seems to indicate that you can make a spell storing weapon that works like a staff. Of course, that would constitute a new rule. If that part is deleted, it would leave the standard for all items (as per 7) applying for spell storing weapons. (Addition: It seems for whatever reason that I get more regular replies from CustServ than other people I ask. I suppose that balances that I never get replies from the Sage since my "infamous" Ride-By Attack question.) You've had this the WHOLE time and you left us in agony? Sam you are an evil evil man. Not an evil genius. Just a man.
Samwise 01-08-07, 04:40 PM	You've had this the WHOLE time and you left us in agony? Sam you are an evil evil man. Not an evil genius. Just a man. *shrug* I'm not drawn that way, I'm just evil. And no, I didn't expect to leave anyone in agony. I figured I'd ask, and after I did the whole thread looked to be dying off. Added to not wanting to open it up to "Well I can ignore CustServ if I want!" I figured I'd just let it go and hope someone else would ask and get an answer. And, as I noted, there's that "odd" grammar on the critical questions. But . . . it simmered until now, and so here we are. People can accept the answers or not as they like. Oh, and remember, I am NOT a legal source or conduit of official answers. This is just my cross-posting the answer I got from them. It happens to agree with how I would (and do) run it, but that is all.
budleiser 01-08-07, 06:33 PM	*shrug* I'm not drawn that way, I'm just evil. And no, I didn't expect to leave anyone in agony. I figured I'd ask, and after I did the whole thread looked to be dying off. Added to not wanting to open it up to "Well I can ignore CustServ if I want!" I figured I'd just let it go and hope someone else would ask and get an answer. And, as I noted, there's that "odd" grammar on the critical questions. But . . . it simmered until now, and so here we are. People can accept the answers or not as they like. Oh, and remember, I am NOT a legal source or conduit of official answers. This is just my cross-posting the answer I got from them. It happens to agree with how I would (and do) run it, but that is all. Just before you posted your email I asked CustServ and I got a response: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11123741#post11123741