Post/Author/DateTime	Post
budleiser 10-01-06, 08:42 PM	Spell Storing allows you to cast a spell into the weapon, and spell goes off when it hits something. Spellstoring DMG entry reads "A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon" Now it says "spellcaster" can a rogue UMD read a scroll/wand to cast into it?
zigspatty 10-01-06, 09:06 PM	Spellstoring DMG entry reads "A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon" Now it says "spellcaster" can a rogue UMD read a scroll/wand to cast into it? If the rogue successfully UMD's the spell from the scroll or wand, then he is indeed a spellcaster. That is a valid method of placing a spell in your weapon. Beause of the cost, you may want to ask a friendly wizard or cleric to cast the spell for you. Do keep in mind that, except for a multi-round event, the spell stored will not carry over to the next mod or event if it is not used - spell-storing weapons always begin the adventure empty (LGCS596 pg. 51) Patty
budleiser 10-01-06, 09:07 PM	If the rogue successfully UMD's the spell from the scroll or wand, then he is indeed a spellcaster. That is a valid method of placing a spell in your weapon. Beause of the cost, you may want to ask a friendly wizard or cleric to cast the spell for you. Do keep in mind that, except for a multi-round event, the spell stored will not carry over to the next mod or event if it is not used - spell-storing weapons always begin the adventure empty (LGCS596 pg. 51) Patty AWESOME! Thanks! Totally getting this upgrade! And just to Clarify I cannot give it Spell Storing twice, and have 2 spells in the Lance. IF I could, could both go off after 1 hit or just one? (I already assume I cannot double the spell storage) Edit: Oh just thought of more questions... #1 the caster level of the spell is the same as whoever cast it into the weapon yes? (Or would it be min caster level, or weapon wielders level?) #2 If I put a ray or touch spell into it, does it have to roll an attack or because the lance hit them the spell automatically hits? If I have to make an attack roll, who/whats stats does it go off of? (Lances, Mine, or Casters?)
zigspatty 10-01-06, 09:39 PM	And just to Clarify I cannot give it Spell Storing twice, and have 2 spells in the Lance. Nope. Such an enhancement would overlap, though I can find no reference that supports my belief. Otherwise, why would you need an icy burst enchantment if you could gain the same damage from two enchantments of frost? #1 the caster level of the spell is the same as whoever cast it into the weapon yes? (Or would it be min caster level, or weapon wielders level?) I'm not sure on this, but I believe that the caster level would be the same as whomevever placed the spell in the weapon. For a scroll purchased with core access and activated with UMD, that would still mean minimum caster level. #2 If I put a ray or touch spell into it, does it have to roll an attack or because the lance hit them the spell automatically hits? A ray is not a targeted spell and therefore cannot be stored in a spell-storing weapon. It has an "effect" of a ray, rather than a target. You need a spell with a specific target (blindness, shocking grasp, inflict light wounds, etc.) Hope this helps... Patty
kjenks 10-01-06, 09:47 PM	The spell must have a Target: entry in its spell description.
budleiser 10-02-06, 08:06 AM	The spell must have a Target: entry in its spell description. Hmmm, interesting. Would have thought all Ray spells would be considered target spells. Ohwell I lose out on Scorching Ray and Ray of Enfeeblment which is huge. Most touch spells still say target though. So what good spells 1st-3rd level would be good for spellstoring? Touch of Idiocy, Touch of Fatigue, Magic Missile, Inflict Serious Wounds, Hold Person, Charm Person, Grease
Iswald 10-02-06, 10:22 AM	Almost all rays are effects. They create rays that you have to aim. The majority of the target spells apply various effects to the target, only a small number of those do hp damage. The best spell depends upon what you have available and what you're fighting. If you're depending upon UMD, I assume you're mainly looking at PHB spells, poison, dispel magic, inflict serious wounds, shocking grasp, bestow curse and slow. Spellcasters with some of the limited spells from SpC can provide you with some more interesting options.
budleiser 10-02-06, 04:57 PM	The Important Question: So we all agree that when the spell comes out, its DC and effective level are tied to the original caster not the wielder? I take it Grease will not work, because it targets a Square or Item, and spellstore triggers when it hits a creature and I can't grease the creature?
kjenks 10-02-06, 05:42 PM	The Important Question: So we all agree that when the spell comes out, its DC and effective level are tied to the original caster not the wielder? The DC and caster level are determined by the rules in the DMG, and they have nothing to do with either the original caster or the wielder. "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." As for the caster level, see this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=710486 The spell's caster level is set by the weapon at CL 12 for most Spell Storing weapons, or CL 15 for a +5 weapon, per the rules for computing the caster level of a weapon: SRD === Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. === And per the rules for computing the caster level of all magic items: SRD === • Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). ===
Iswald 10-02-06, 11:27 PM	The spell storing enhancement is a 12th level effect, but the spells going out use the caster level of the caster that put them in.
kjenks 10-03-06, 06:37 AM	The spell storing enhancement is a 12th level effect, but the spells going out use the caster level of the caster that put them in. No, the DMG does not say that the caster level of spell effects from a spell storing weapon has anything to do with the original caster. See the rules above.
Iswald 10-03-06, 09:08 AM	You're misinterpreting what they are talking about in that section. What is the caster level of an ability. The spell storing ability functions with a caster level of 12. But, the effect is to store a spell, not to amplify it, reduce it or in any other way to regulate the caster level of the spell that goes into the effect. What goes in, goes out unchanged. If it were to alter the spell's caster level, it would say so, just as with spell storing rings.
zigspatty 10-03-06, 11:01 AM	The spell storing ability functions with a caster level of 12. But, the effect is to store a spell, not to amplify it, reduce it or in any other way to regulate the caster level of the spell that goes into the effect. What goes in, goes out unchanged. If it were to alter the spell's caster level, it would say so, just as with spell storing rings. While I would assume that the spell's caster level is identical to that of whomever placed the spell in the weapon, the similarity of the the spell-storing weapon ability to that of the spell-storing ring is what brings in doubts that such common sense logic applies. The description of the weapon ability seems to be silent with regard to caster level or DCs of the spell. But the ring's description is not so silent - spells cast from a ring of spell storing have minimum caster level and DCs. There are some definite differences between the items though: casting times (free action vs. usual casting time) the possibility of multiple spells in a ring (but not the weapon), the spells allowed (targeted onlyi vs. # of spell levels allowed). I've no idea whether the description leaves out such a detail because it doesn't apply to the weapon ability or the authors presume that we'll just naturally apply the ring ability's rules to it. As far as the weapon ability being 12th level goes, I'm pretty sure that applies only to the weapon itself and is important only if it's facing a targeted dispell; it shouldn't affect the caster level or DCs of the spells within it. So.... expect table variation. Ask your judge his opinion when you sit down at his table. You'll want to know before you activate that blindness spell whether the baddie will face a minimal DC 13 Fort save or your buddy's DC 21, and whether a shocking grasp will do 1d6 or 5d6 points of damage. Patty
kjenks 10-03-06, 11:45 AM	While I would assume that the spell's caster level is identical to that of whomever placed the spell in the weapon, the similarity of the the spell-storing weapon ability to that of the spell-storing ring is what brings in doubts that such common sense logic applies. The description of the weapon ability seems to be silent with regard to caster level or DCs of the spell. It's not silent at all about caster level. It's there in black and white. "Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus." The other rule I quoted makes this really, really clear. SRD === • Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). === This general rule for all magic items is modified by the specific rule for computing the caster level of a weapon: SRD === Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. === The caster level of a weapon with the Spell Storing special ability is given in the item description as "CL 12th." I don't see any rules related to Spell Storing weapons that indicate what you're saying, Patty and Iswald. Do you? If you can find them, please cite them. My level 14 sorceress would LOVE to have full caster level from a Spell Storing weapon, but the way I see it, the weapon's caster level is fixed at a meager CL 12th.
kjenks 10-03-06, 11:57 AM	So.... expect table variation. Ask your judge his opinion when you sit down at his table. You'll want to know before you activate that blindness spell whether the baddie will face a minimal DC 13 Fort save or your buddy's DC 21, and whether a shocking grasp will do 1d6 or 5d6 points of damage. Patty As far as save DCs go, I can't find any rules at all that allow the original spellcaster's save DC to be used when a spell is stored in a magic item. Again, I'd love to find those rules for my 14th sorceress. The rules I find say, "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." The +8 modifier of Stella's 28 charisma certainly would be better for me than "the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." That minimum ability score would be 11 for level 1, 12 for level 2 or 13 for level 3 spells. If Stella could cast Blindness, the save DC would be 20 instead of a meager 13.
zigspatty 10-03-06, 03:15 PM	As far as save DCs go.... The rules I find say, "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." I missed that little piece of the rules. Drat! It would almost always be better to use the caster's DC. It's not silent at all about caster level. It's there in black and white. "Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus." The other rule I quoted makes this really, really clear. SRD === • Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It looks really clear until you start looking at other sections and items... Just a few lines above that section of the SRD (thanks for showing me where to look!) it also states the following: Some individual items, notably those that simply store spells and nothing else, don’t get full-blown descriptions. Reference the spell’s description for details, modified by the form of the item (potion, scroll, wand, and so on). Assume that the spell is cast at the minimum level required to cast it. Sure sounds like maybe it should apply to a spell-storing weapon, doesn't it? So then you start looking at other spell-storing items. A major ring of spell-storing that is similar to the weapon spell storing ability has a CL of 17 and yet its description specifically states "Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell." The vibrant purple ioun stone has the same caveat. Why should the spell-storing weapon ability be different in this respect? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me that an apprentice's shocking grasp should be every bit as effective as the archmage's spell, but that's how it ends up if it's cast into a spell-storing ring or ioun stone. I'm beginning to think the same applies to the spell-storing weapon as well. Except in the creation process where spell effects are essentially made permanent, I can find no instances where a spell's power is increased by placement in a magic item. So there's no way a 2nd level wizard's spell is going to be cast from a weapon as a 12th level caster. The caster level given does not apply to the spells cast out of the item; CL refers to the item itself and rarely comes into play after creation (except maybe when it's targeted by a Dispel magic or similar effect). One thing we can all agree on, though: The write up for the spell-storing weapon ability could definitely use some clarification. Patty
Japangirl 10-03-06, 05:48 PM	It's not silent at all about caster level. It's there in black and white. "Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus." The other rule I quoted makes this really, really clear. SRD === • Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). === This general rule for all magic items is modified by the specific rule for computing the caster level of a weapon: SRD === Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. === The caster level of a weapon with the Spell Storing special ability is given in the item description as "CL 12th." I don't see any rules related to Spell Storing weapons that indicate what you're saying, Patty and Iswald. Do you? If you can find them, please cite them. My level 14 sorceress would LOVE to have full caster level from a Spell Storing weapon, but the way I see it, the weapon's caster level is fixed at a meager CL 12th. That caster level is the caster level needed to craft the spell storing enhancement, not the caster level of the spell going out. If you wanted to craft a spell storing weapon, you'd have to be CL 12. The spell you cast into the spell storing weapon is minimum DC and caster level when it comes out.
kjenks 10-04-06, 05:51 AM	That caster level is the caster level needed to craft the spell storing enhancement, not the caster level of the spell going out. If you wanted to craft a spell storing weapon, you'd have to be CL 12. The spell you cast into the spell storing weapon is minimum DC and caster level when it comes out. I wish that were the case, but the rules clearly state that, "The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable)." So when the spell comes out, its caster level is determined by the item. And Patty, let's talk about the rule that says, "Some individual items, notably those that simply store spells and nothing else, don’t get full-blown descriptions. Reference the spell’s description for details, modified by the form of the item (potion, scroll, wand, and so on). Assume that the spell is cast at the minimum level required to cast it." When I look at the "form of the item" for a Spell Storing weapon, I see that "CL 12th" staring me in the face, so I don't need to assume a caster level in this case because it's stated explicitly. Check out the Mace of Terror. SRD === Mace of Terror: On command, this +2 heavy mace causes the wielder’s clothes and appearance to transform into an illusion of darkest horror such that living creatures in a 30-foot cone become panicked as if by a fear spell (Will DC 16 partial). They take a –2 morale penalty on saving throws, and they flee from the wielder. The wielder may use this ability up to three times per day. Strong necromancy; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fear; Price 38,552 gp; Cost 19,276 gp + 1,542 XP. === How long does that fear effect last? What CL do you need to beat to if you try a Dispel Magic to get rid of the panicked state? These are determined by the "CL 13th" in the weapon description. I don't see any wiggle room here. Each magic item has a well-defined caster level that determines the caster level for spell effects that come out of that item. For spells cast from magic items where CL is not explicitly defined (and I can't find any of those), you assume that the spell is cast at the minimum level required to cast it. For a Spell Storing weapon, you're stuck at a meager "CL 12th," even if you cast the spell in at caster level 15.
Iswald 10-04-06, 10:31 AM	And Patty, let's talk about the rule that says, "Some individual items, notably those that simply store spells and nothing else, don’t get full-blown descriptions. Reference the spell’s description for details, modified by the form of the item (potion, scroll, wand, and so on). Assume that the spell is cast at the minimum level required to cast it." Wow. Talk about taking things out of context... This is just to reduce the space needed in the DMG to describe what potions, scrolls, wands and such do where you can just look up the spell to see what the item does. That's it. It has nothing to do with the spell storing enhancement. When I look at the "form of the item" for a Spell Storing weapon, I see that "CL 12th" staring me in the face, so I don't need to assume a caster level in this case because it's stated explicitly. You have to go through some convoluted thinking and consider WotC to have obfuscated the rules quite a bit to imply that spell storing weapons should always cast spells at CL 12. Granted, WotC has some bad editing, but, even for them, this is too much of a stretch.
kjenks 10-04-06, 02:56 PM	So what's the caster level of a Mace of Terror?
zigspatty 10-04-06, 07:15 PM	So what's the caster level of a Mace of Terror? 7th. Fear is a 4th level wizard/sorcerer spell. The DC 16 saving throw reflects the spell level (4) + the 14 int/cha needed to cast it (+2) +10. Since we "Assume that the spell is cast at the minimum level required to cast it", a failed save will result in him fleeing in terror for 7 rounds. Though if it's treated as a 3rd level bard spell, then they'll only be fleeing for 5 rounds.... I'm sure someone out there is feeling that both you and I are deliberately misreading the text because they've got an equally clear but different interpretation. And neither way is terribly logical in terms of common sense. Only staffs really make good sense. Patty
kjenks 10-04-06, 07:44 PM	Do you think one rule overrides the others? Why? I think that the specific rules for "Caster Level" (DMG p. 215) and "Caster Level for Weapons" (DMG p.221) override the rule that says, "Some individual items, notably those that simply store spells and nothing else, don’t get full-blown descriptions. Reference the spell’s description for details, modified by the form of the item (potion, scroll, wand, and so on). Assume that the spell is cast at the minimum level required to cast it." The reason I think that is because when I olok at the "form of the item" I see a clear indication of the caster level.
zigspatty 10-04-06, 10:36 PM	Do you think one rule overrides the others? Why? Well, they can't BOTH be right, so something should override the other. And, honestly, I'm not real thrilled with either interpretation. (Wiz14 casts Vampiric Touch into sword and the wielder can only deal damage and gain temporary hp of 2d6, OR that rogue UMDs a level 1 scroll to cast magic missile into it and the wielder can zap with 5 missiles). Comparing the spell storing weapon ability to an item with a spell-like ability with a clearly defined saving throw, doesn't really clear anything up. Even if it's decided that the creator's caster level governs the effect (a reasonable assumption based on the rules), the clearly different description given for the ring of spell-storing, and the vibrant purple ioun stone which references it, should probably carry more weight. Expect table variation if you purchase this item. You want to sit at Ken's table if a party member has a spell-storing weapon. You probably want to sit at mine if the bad guys have one. And no one will be surprised if another judge inquires about the spellcaster's level. Patty (still secretly hoping Ken is right after all because I *hate* the whole minimum caster level idea.... especially when coupled with the fact that such items always begin empty in LG.)
kjenks 10-04-06, 10:52 PM	(Wiz14 casts Vampiric Touch into sword and the wielder can only deal damage and gain temporary hp of 2d6, OR that rogue UMDs a level 1 scroll to cast magic missile into it and the wielder can zap with 5 missiles). Well, Vampiric Touch is a little troublesome because it's pretty clear that the WEAPON is the caster. So the weapon gains temporary HP, not the wielder. Charm Person is another troublesome spell due to the weapon-is-the-caster issue. "Oh, suddenly, I really like your sword!" I don't mind a Spell Storing weapon acting as a "scroll amplifier" like this. At 8,300 gp minimum cost, it SHOULD have some dramatic effect, on par with wearing two +2 stat items (4,000 gp each) or a +2 Ring of Protection.
zigspatty 10-04-06, 11:52 PM	Well, Vampiric Touch is a little troublesome because it's pretty clear that the WEAPON is the caster. So the weapon gains temporary HP, not the wielder. Charm Person is another troublesome spell due to the weapon-is-the-caster issue. "Oh, suddenly, I really like your sword!" Heh. We certainly approach things from different angles. Considering that the wielder decides as a free action when to cast the spell in his sword, I have no problem viewing the wielder as the caster. The sword is considered largely an extension of the character - so long as he doesn't roll a 1 on his save, or face rust monsters, oozes, or dedicated sunderers . If the character were to use a wand, scroll, or mbued spell, I doubt that there'd be any question that the character is considered the caste. Charm Person is troublesome in other ways, though. "Ooooh, stabbing me really shows what a terrific guy you are!"
kjenks 10-05-06, 08:42 AM	SRD: "Spell Storing: ... Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires." I don't see any other interpretation there, either. The weapon casts the spell. If the character were to use a wand, scroll, or [imbued] spell, I doubt that there'd be any question that the character is considered the [caster]. I've seen people claim that the wand or scroll is the caster. It makes me wonder what a Scroll of False Life does. Or a Wand of Charm Person.
kjenks 10-05-06, 08:48 AM	7th. Fear is a 4th level wizard/sorcerer spell. The DC 16 saving throw reflects the spell level (4) + the 14 int/cha needed to cast it (+2) +10. Since we "Assume that the spell is cast at the minimum level required to cast it", a failed save will result in him fleeing in terror for 7 rounds. Though if it's treated as a 3rd level bard spell, then they'll only be fleeing for 5 rounds... In order to cast Fear: Wizard 7 Sorcerer 8 Bard 7 (Cha 16+) Bard 8 (Cha 13+) Hexblade 11 (Cha 16+) Hexblade 12 (Cha 13+) So which should we choose and why? I say CL 13th, like the item description says. And if you have Greater Magic Weapon +5 on the Mace of Terror, the CL goes up to 15th.
budleiser 10-05-06, 11:23 AM	Omg...
budleiser 10-06-06, 09:17 AM	Ok so what did we come up with? At first it looked so nice and simple everyone was saying the spell comes out as it went in. Now theres people saying it will come out min level min dc. And yet theres also the chance that I can UMD a level 1 shocking grasp into it and get a level 12 out of it? Who's right or is it gray? What would MOST DM's rule?
Iswald 10-06-06, 09:51 AM	Omg... I don't think your god has anything to do with this... Ok so what did we come up with? At first it looked so nice and simple everyone was saying the spell comes out as it went in. Now theres people saying it will come out min level min dc. And yet theres also the chance that I can UMD a level 1 shocking grasp into it and get a level 12 out of it? Who's right or is it gray? What would MOST DM's rule? Ken has brought up spell storing weapons casting at 12th level in at least four different forums that I know of. I don't think anyone has ever agreed with him. Instead, the topic goes off on a tangent or everyone else argues against it. Patty's position is more likely. Spell storing rings will store spells at the minimum caster level. Their description says so explicitly and some judges will rule the same way for spell storing weapons too. Most likely, in my opinion, you'll find spells going in and coming out at the caster level of the caster who puts them in.
kjenks 10-06-06, 09:58 AM	I don't think there's any gray area here. Although figuring them out requires poking around in the books a bit, the rules look pretty clear to me. Here are the areas I've seen people confused about: What spells can be stored Any spell with a Target: entry in its spell description, including Target: You spells. You can put in metamagic versions of such targeted spells as long as the adjusted spell level is 0th-3rd. The Sudden metamagic feats will let you put a metamagic version of a spell into the weapon, but you must apply the adjustment to the spell level to determine if the spell in the weapon is level 3 or less, just like regular metamagic feats. Caster Level As stated in the description of the Spell Storing special ability, the caster level is 12th (or 15th if you have a +5 enhancement bonus on the weapon, as stated in the special rules for caster level from weapons). Save DC "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." So that's save DC 10 for cantrips, DC 11 for 1st level spells, DC 13 for 2nd level spells and DC 14 for 3rd level spells, with the usual strangeness for the save DC of metamagic spells. Who is the caster? The weapon is the caster, not the wielder or the character who put the spell into the Spell Storing weapon. But the Spell Storing weapon modifies the usual targeting mechanism so that the spell is cast on the creature that gets hit and damaged. This modified targeting means that (a) spells that normally allow multiple targets (like Water Breathing) only affect the creature hit and (b) Target: You spells affect the creature hit, not the weapon. As far as I can tell, there isn't any real problem with game balance as long as you follow these rules. Nothing really strange happens, even if a low-level caster puts a spell in and it comes out at CL 12th. The weapon acts as an expensive amplifier. I've seen DMs talk about different ways of playing this, but I haven't had a character with a Spell Storing weapon yet so I can't tell you how different DMs actually rule at the table.
Japangirl 10-06-06, 03:13 PM	I looked again. I was right about CL 12 for making the weapon a spell storing one. However, the caster level of the spell inside the weapon is the caster level of whoever cast it in. If you UMD a scroll into spell storing weapon, well, scrolls are always at min caster level unless specifically said otherwise. I would rule that the spell you cast into the weapon comes out at the same caster level you cast it in as (ie a Magic Missile cast by a 7th level caster into a spell storing weapon comes out with 4 missiles, not just 1). I realize there will be significant table variation on this one, but I don't think the weapon actually "casts" the spell anew, but rather casts as the person who stuck it in. As if the spell were merely held in abeyance for awhile.
kjenks 10-06-06, 05:30 PM	Do you have any rules that actually say that? I'd love to find them.
Japangirl 10-06-06, 05:57 PM	It is merely my interpretation of the rules. The weapon casts the same spell out that was cast into it. Which means the caster level, which is part of the spell, stays the same.
TWG_Prometheus 10-06-06, 07:53 PM	Do you have any rules that actually say that? I'd love to find them. I really doubt that you can pull up rules showing your reasoning for justifying that the target of Target: You spells cast from a Spell Storing weapon isn't the weapon itself. Your argument in regard to the Spell Storing enhancement overall is extremely mechanical, and the rules of THIS game don't work very well like that. Magic: The Gathering does because it has to for tournament environments. I see plenty of gray area in regard to this weapon enhancement. For determining whether a spell is targeted, a mechanical argument would require the spell to have a (Target: ) entry in its statistic block, even though this would disallow a vast array of spells such as Sorching Ray and Lesser Orb of Fire that seem obvious and that have spell descriptions that are replete with mentions of targeting things. In contrast, the same mechanical approach DOES allow Target: You spells without giving us any real guidance on how to handle such things. For determining the spell DC and caster level of a spell stored in a Spell Storing weapon, we've heard time and again in this thread that: "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." Yet at the same time, we don't have any real indication that a spell stored in a Spell Storing item is 'from' a magic item. It is equally likely that the spell is 'from' the original caster and that the weapon merely 'stores' the spell. The caster level can equally likely be the caster level of the original caster. The existence of text limiting the spells in a Spell Storing ring as opposed to the lack of such text on a Spell Storing weapon gives us circumstantial evidence that the original caster's statistics should be used, but such an argument has little mechanical foundation. Moreover, the existence of items such as Scroll of Magic Missle (CL 5) show us that it's possible for items to emit spells that do not have base-casting statistics. The reason that the rules state that scrolls and potions and such have the lowest possible spell DCs and caster levels is that we don't know where the spell came from. In cases where we do know where a spell came from (creator of the scroll ect) or in cases where a variant caster level is directly specified, spells cast from items can have a wide array of statistics. In the case of a Spell Storing weapon found with a spell already inside it, I would expect the spell to have base statistics, especially if the previous user was not obvious. If you KNOW who cast the spell into an item and exactly how and with what statistics they cast the spell, the answer to a Spell Storing weapon spell's DC and caster level are obvious. They are the same as the spell that was cast into the item. There isn't any rules text to allow any other result, as opposed to a spell storing ring, which does have limiting text. The text of Spell Storing does indicate that the weapon casts the spell, but the lack of any extra guidance in the matter leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Is the weapon casting the spell as the weapon would cast it (technically it CAN'T unless it's an intelligent weapon due to lack of a mental attribute) or is it casting it as the original caster or wielder would cast it? In cases like Vampiric Touch, does the weapon transfer the caster-targeting benefit to itself, to the wielder, or to the original caster of the spell? The mechanical arguments presented have given us a weapon enhancement that does a lot of absurd, counterintuitive things like allowing people to cut themselves to gain False Life. If we assume that the author was silent on the exact rules because they felt that the mechanics of the weapon enhancement were obvious, they were sadly mistaken. The intuitive use of the weapon enhancement, however, is to do bad things to the guy on the pointy end of your weapon. As such, I would recommend a less mechanical approach. Expect table variation.
A'Talsen 10-06-06, 08:59 PM	Do you have any rules that actually say that? I'd love to find them. The confusion I had myself with this is that I swore I saw that in writing... and I did, but not for that item: Spell Storing, Minor: A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell. While I grant you that the Spell Storing Weapon quality doesn not posess this text, it is virtually the same effect, in a different form. I find it best *In my home game* to use this for all spell storing devices, but it is clearly at least subject to debate in LG. A'Talsen
Iswald 10-06-06, 11:33 PM	In contrast, the same mechanical approach DOES allow Target: You spells without giving us any real guidance on how to handle such things. It's probably safe to assume the target still has to be valid. If you know who is casting the spell, or considered to cast the spell, then you can decide if a Target: You spell would work. False life on a sword? Would that make it harder to sunder?
budleiser 10-07-06, 12:00 AM	I had already thought about Cure Serious cast on my sword and then attacking myself (Or my mount as needed). Hadn't thought of the False Life thats a great idea too! Is there no higher authority to turn to when these rule debates go unsolved? What do people think about spells that have a target but dont have the mechanic "target" listed? Have we all agreed that the spells must have "target" and thus Rays are not allowed. Or is the simple fact the spell does end up targeting something enough to allow it? Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray are spells I would love to have stored (even if the caster level is min) but those spells "create a ray" and then follow ray rules and are of themselves not technically "target" spells. Yet touch spells are, but those you have to cast, then physically try and touch something. So if I store a touch of idiocy in my Lance what happens when I hit someone? Have I already "touched" my opponent and the spell takes effect. Do I immediately roll a touch attack? Or does the sword glow and now I have spend a standard action to touch them?
kjenks 10-07-06, 12:28 AM	I really doubt that you can pull up rules showing your reasoning for justifying that the target of Target: You spells cast from a Spell Storing weapon isn't the weapon itself. Well, since you asked... Consider the Water Breathing spell. It's a targeted spell (it has a Target: entry in its spell block) so it's a valid spell to be used with a Spell Storing weapon. When the Spell Storing weapon hits someone and damages him, the targeting of the spell clearly changes. Instead of being cast on multiple targets, "Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires." So the targeting changes from multiple targets to a single target -- the dude you just hit with the weapon. With me so far? Now, get ready for some parallelism. Now consider the False Life spell. It's a targeted spell (it has a Target: entry in its spell block) so it's a valid spell to be used with a Spell Storing weapon. When the Spell Storing weapon hits someone and damages him, the targeting of the spell clearly changes. Instead of being cast on the caster, "Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires." So the targeting changes from Target: You to a single target -- the dude you just hit with the weapon. Got it? The Spell Storing weapon changes the way the spell is targeted.
kjenks 10-07-06, 12:40 AM	Hadn't thought of the False Life thats a great idea too! For this purpose, a +1 silver spell storing gauntlet would be best for a "buff up noogie." Inflict 1d3 damage. Gain 1d10+10 temporary HP for 12 hours. Then cure the damage. Is there no higher authority to turn to when these rule debates go unsolved? I've sent a note to Ask Wizards, but they usually don't answer my questions. What do people think about spells that have a target but dont have the mechanic "target" listed? Have we all agreed that the spells must have "target" and thus Rays are not allowed. Or is the simple fact the spell does end up targeting something enough to allow it? Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray are spells I would love to have stored (even if the caster level is min) but those spells "create a ray" and then follow ray rules and are of themselves not technically "target" spells. Yet touch spells are, but those you have to cast, then physically try and touch something. So if I store a touch of idiocy in my Lance what happens when I hit someone? Have I already "touched" my opponent and the spell takes effect. Do I immediately roll a touch attack? Or does the sword glow and now I have spend a standard action to touch them? I don't think we've all agreed on anything. The way I read the rules, a hit from your Spell Storing lance will cast the spell without any additional attack roll and without any additional action required.
zigspatty 10-07-06, 12:46 AM	What do people think about spells that have a target but dont have the mechanic "target" listed? Have we all agreed that the spells must have "target" and thus Rays are not allowed. Fortunately, we don't have to think about it. The description covers that detail quite well: "A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon...Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires." Even common sense largely follows such logic and we get to avoid debates about the ray miraculously missing because it shoots out from the hilt or the body of the victim somehow blocks it as well as the bizarre possibility that it would accidentally hit the wielder. So if I store a touch of idiocy in my Lance what happens when I hit someone? Have I already "touched" my opponent and the spell takes effect. Do I immediately roll a touch attack? Or does the sword glow and now I have spend a standard action to touch them? When you hit them, fulfulling the requirements to have the lance release its spell, you are already touching them in a vulnerable spot. The spell is cast as a free action, a very fortunate thing considering that you've already used up your standard action and probably your move action as well to hit the baddie. With touch of idiocy, they don't even get a save, just roll a 1d6 penalty to their int, wis, & cha scores that will last for 30 to 120 minutes depending upon your Judge's interpretation. Even 3 minutes would probably be sufficient to decrease his battle effectiveness. Patty
clik_ml 10-07-06, 01:15 AM	For stuff like false life and such in a spell storing weapon... it's most often a waste. You could just cast those spells without use of the weapon. Especially false life with it's 1hr/level duration. If you must use a spellstoring weapon to deal buffs out, then I'd recommend a spellstoring sap. A whip would be really nice with the 15' reach and subdual damage, but it never hurts anything, ever. That's a downside since you have to inflict damage in order to activate the spellstoring ability. A merciful spellstoring bow would be an okay delivery system for cure serious wounds, since it would heal both the subdual and the regular damage... but folks needing that healing might get ko'd and then drop their stuff. Generally you don't want to be wasting money to get a "buffing" weapon that is not as effective as a proper weapon. That's 8300+gp better spent elsewhere. That, and there aren't a lot of targeted spells that are worth one's time.
budleiser 10-07-06, 09:43 AM	For stuff like false life and such in a spell storing weapon... it's most often a waste. You could just cast those spells without use of the weapon. Especially false life with it's 1hr/level duration. If you must use a spellstoring weapon to deal buffs out, then I'd recommend a spellstoring sap. A whip would be really nice with the 15' reach and subdual damage, but it never hurts anything, ever. That's a downside since you have to inflict damage in order to activate the spellstoring ability. A merciful spellstoring bow would be an okay delivery system for cure serious wounds, since it would heal both the subdual and the regular damage... but folks needing that healing might get ko'd and then drop their stuff. Generally you don't want to be wasting money to get a "buffing" weapon that is not as effective as a proper weapon. That's 8300+gp better spent elsewhere. That, and there aren't a lot of targeted spells that are worth one's time. As a +1 Bonus Enhancment I thought it would cost $2000+300+weapon. If I have to put it on a weapon that already has a +1 equivalent its more like spending $6000 I dont intend to use it ONLY for healing. Just in case the weird situation comes up where the party has no useful spells for it, perhaps we get stuck with a "Healer".
TWG_Prometheus 10-07-06, 10:59 AM	Well, since you asked... Consider the Water Breathing spell. It's a targeted spell (it has a Target: entry in its spell block) so it's a valid spell to be used with a Spell Storing weapon. When the Spell Storing weapon hits someone and damages him, the targeting of the spell clearly changes. Instead of being cast on multiple targets, "Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires." So the targeting changes from multiple targets to a single target -- the dude you just hit with the weapon. With me so far? Now, get ready for some parallelism. Now consider the False Life spell. It's a targeted spell (it has a Target: entry in its spell block) so it's a valid spell to be used with a Spell Storing weapon. When the Spell Storing weapon hits someone and damages him, the targeting of the spell clearly changes. Instead of being cast on the caster, "Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires." So the targeting changes from Target: You to a single target -- the dude you just hit with the weapon. Got it? The Spell Storing weapon changes the way the spell is targeted. I understand the logic you're using, but there's no rules behind it. Whether you pick getting the spell into the weapon in the first place or the targeting on the subsequent casting, the Target:You entry always means the caster. Thus, it's an interpretation. We have a lot of that going on around here and that's not a bad thing. Claiming that there isn't any gray area is kind of silly, though. For budleiser: Yes, the spell storing enhancement costs at a mininimum 6000 gold, if applied to a +1 weapon. For a change, the rules are clear on this point. It can cost more if applied to a weapon with a higher effective enhancement than +1, but it's not getting any cheaper than 6k. Does anyone reading this thread have some field experience with how their Judges have ruled on their Spell Storing weapon as opposed to how some of us might rule on it if it came up?
clik_ml 10-07-06, 12:43 PM	As a +1 Bonus Enhancment I thought it would cost $2000+300+weapon. If I have to put it on a weapon that already has a +1 equivalent its more like spending $6000 I dont intend to use it ONLY for healing. Just in case the weird situation comes up where the party has no useful spells for it, perhaps we get stuck with a "Healer". It does have to be a +1 weapon first (all magic weapons and armor must start that way). So 8300gp+, like I said. If you get stuck with a "healer" then the healer can just cast more effective cure spells and you likely shouldn't need to waste time or the slot with putting a cure into an effective damage dealing weapon. I'm just saying using the spellstoring weapon for applying buffs isn't terribly good. If you had all the money in the world along with quickdraw, then a bunch of +1 saps of spellstoring would be kind of funny and useful, but other than that, not so much. Offensively, a spellstoring weapon is kind of meh. Better than a false life or cure would be a vampric touch, if you can wing it. That isn't too shabby for a "smite" effect on a weapon.
Howie23 10-07-06, 02:44 PM	Does anyone reading this thread have some field experience with how their Judges have ruled on their Spell Storing weapon as opposed to how some of us might rule on it if it came up? I was recently prepping a mod that includes a spell storing weapon in the hands of a bad guy. I spent some time going over Ken's take on this, as well as discussing with two other DMs, one of whom is pretty experienced and plays in multiple regions. Both of them were of the opinion that the spell storing weapon stores at the CL of the caster who puts the spell into the weapon, not at CL12. The more experienced of the two had seen spell storing weapons used at several tables, and always as the level of the caster, not the level of the weapon. I share that opinion regarding the spirit of the weapon's ability, but have not settled on a firm opinion as to the letter of the text. If I had to rule on it today, I would rule that the spell went off at the CL of the caster, not the weapon. If the weapon were intended to amplify (usually) the CL of a spell cast into it, it seems like this would be written in much more clearly than the chain of logic that has been expressed in this thread as necessary to get to that result. While the failure to use specific language is not a solid as a logical proof, it is pretty telling in this case, as far as I am concerned. For my purposes, I didn't have to delve into the issues of targetting. It clouds the issue slightly that within the core rules, CL is not a prereq for crafting; that's only an LG thing. (Note that there is DMG errata for this when the SRD/DMG shows otherwise, http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DMG_Errata032004.zip) In the case of a spell storing weapon, CL12 is a true prereq, though. Caster Level Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215 Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading. Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DMG_Errata032004.zip David
budleiser 10-07-06, 10:39 PM	It does have to be a +1 weapon first (all magic weapons and armor must start that way). So 8300gp+, like I said. If you get stuck with a "healer" then the healer can just cast more effective cure spells and you likely shouldn't need to waste time or the slot with putting a cure into an effective damage dealing weapon. I'm just saying using the spellstoring weapon for applying buffs isn't terribly good. If you had all the money in the world along with quickdraw, then a bunch of +1 saps of spellstoring would be kind of funny and useful, but other than that, not so much. Offensively, a spellstoring weapon is kind of meh. Better than a false life or cure would be a vampric touch, if you can wing it. That isn't too shabby for a "smite" effect on a weapon. Theres still an "advantage" to haveing a cure spell in the Lance. #1 if the Healer rests afterwards its NOT taking up a spell slot. #2 if the Healer is unable to cast on me I can use my turn to heal myself. #3 if the Healer needs to heal someone else before me, again I can use my turn to heal myself. #4 if the DM allows it to NOT be an evil act I can legally WHACK a player with the intention of healing him ;) If I can get DMs to accept Rays as being legal in then spell storing weapons will be GREAT, as it can provide the necessary tool for the combat. If we think were going up against a beater store Ray of Enfeeblement, a spell caster store Touch of Idiocy, and if we just don't know then Scorching Ray etc.
DuctShuiTengu 10-08-06, 12:20 AM	#1 if the Healer rests afterwards its NOT taking up a spell slot. Actually, the healer would have to cast the spell on your lance at least 8 hours prior to when they'd recover their spells. Most mods that I've played don't give you that much time at the start of the adventure, so they'd still be down that spell for at least the first half, if not all of it.
budleiser 10-08-06, 12:31 AM	Actually, the healer would have to cast the spell on your lance at least 8 hours prior to when they'd recover their spells. Most mods that I've played don't give you that much time at the start of the adventure, so they'd still be down that spell for at least the first half, if not all of it. Shrug, I think theres been quite a few. Perhaps DM says youve just met and havent had time, perhaps DM says you travelled together. Several mods have been week long affairs. Its not something im that worried about, most spell casters only get off a few spells per combat anyway, this way its like they got to cast 1 more and be that much more useful. I think despite all the table variance I COULD run into, It's something I look forward to enjoying. I think after all this debate and still landing in the gray #1 The spells come out with same DC/Attributes they went in with. (Which isnt too hard since they cant be carried from mod to mod anyway) #2 The caster should be treated as the Wielder (too many weird interactions otherwise such as charm person) #3 I think Ray's should be legal, but if the DM disallows it ohwell. #4 touch spells would not have to roll a touch attack as the weapon is already touching.
kjenks 10-08-06, 08:14 AM	#1 The spells come out with same DC/Attributes they went in with. (Which isnt too hard since they cant be carried from mod to mod anyway) I can't figure out why you and others persist in this erroneous belief. Nobody has posted any rules suggesting that this is true.
clik_ml 10-08-06, 09:13 AM	I can't figure out why you and others persist in this erroneous belief. Nobody has posted any rules suggesting that this is true. How can you call it erroneous if there aren't any rules suggesting it's false either? It's an unknown that seems the most plausible option to myself, mostly due to that the other options seem silly. Tying the stored spell's caster level to the caster levels on items, which are little more than arbitrary guidelines for item creation as stated by writers, seems very disingenuous. It's good idea to ignore item creation caster level when determining any mechanic other than at what level you must be this tall to create an item. So that leaves it to the [caster level of the input caster vs. the caster level of the wielder]... and it really just seems like the intuitive choice (to me, and apparently others) that you go with the input caster, since they are the origin of the spell, especially as the wielder may not even have a caster level at all making for quite the conundrum if you went the other way.
budleiser 10-08-06, 09:17 AM	I can't figure out why you and others persist in this erroneous belief. Nobody has posted any rules suggesting that this is true. If we find out that it amplifies to spells to CL 12 thats great too. However all the rules to determine this were found on other pages, in other books, in reference to other items. And thats fine if they apply they apply. I hate to be one of those people who reads into the "flavor" of something, but spellstoring was terribly written it provides no answers to dozens of questions, so unfortunately I think its one of those entries where you DO have to interpret what they were going for. Which is why I think DC/Attributes are set at original caster, and Ray's *should* be legal because they do end up with a target. (If I get a DM no on rays thats fine) Bottom line even if I agree with you, I don't expect DM's to understand it and abide by it. In board games, CCGs, Magic, DDM etc I would go by the letter of the rules. I hate that D&D is so terribly written. They try to pack too much flavor into everything and we all get left wondering what the rules are.
kjenks 10-08-06, 09:53 AM	How can you call it erroneous if there aren't any rules suggesting it's false either? You haven't been reading what I've been writing, have you? There are rules stating that the caster level is "CL 12th" in the ability description DMG 225), in the rules governing caster level for weapons (DMG 221) and in the rules describing the "stat block" for magic items (DMG 215). I have seen no rules suggesting that CL in = CL out, anywhere. For my level 14 sorcerer, this is not an issue of a Spell Storing being an amplifier, but a limit. I'd love to find a rule explicitly stating that CL in = CL out, but I've been unable to. If you've found something I haven't, please let us know what it is. For those who still think CL = miniumum necessary to cast the spell, please re-read DMG 215 -- the entire page. The structure of the paragraphs shows that the "CL = minimum" concept is discussed in the paragraph that begins with "Some individual items, notably those that simply store spells and nothing else, don’t get full-blown descriptions." Those are things like scrolls, potions, wands. The next paragraph, starting with "Items with full descriptions," makes it clear that the caster level is given in the item description. Those are things like armor, weapons and wondrous items. (Staves are exceptions.) So any opinion about caster level that relies on rumors like "the spirit of the rules says" or "my buddy says" or "two DMs surveyed" or even "we've always played it that way" is going to have far less weight for me than a rule cited from the books. I will continue to consider your opinion on this matter to be erroneous until you can show me proof.
kjenks 10-08-06, 09:58 AM	Tying the stored spell's caster level to the caster levels on items, which are little more than arbitrary guidelines for item creation as stated by writers, seems very disingenuous. You're calling me a liar? I'll ignore that part. The rule tying the caster level of the spell to the caster level of the creator is on DMG 215, SRD === • Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). ===
budleiser 10-08-06, 09:58 AM	You haven't been reading what I've been writing, have you? There are rules stating that the caster level is "CL 12th" in the ability description DMG 225), in the rules governing caster level for weapons (DMG 221) and in the rules describing the "stat block" for magic items (DMG 215). I have seen no rules suggesting that CL in = CL out, anywhere. For my level 14 sorcerer, this is not an issue of a Spell Storing being an amplifier, but a limit. I'd love to find a rule explicitly stating that CL in = CL out, but I've been unable to. If you've found something I haven't, please let us know what it is. For those who still think CL = miniumum necessary to cast the spell, please re-read DMG 215 -- the entire page. The structure of the paragraphs shows that the "CL = minimum" concept is discussed in the paragraph that begins with "Some individual items, notably those that simply store spells and nothing else, don’t get full-blown descriptions." Those are things like scrolls, potions, wands. The next paragraph, starting with "Items with full descriptions," makes it clear that the caster level is given in the item description. Those are things like armor, weapons and wondrous items. (Staves are exceptions.) So any opinion about caster level that relies on rumors like "the spirit of the rules says" or "my buddy says" or "two DMs surveyed" or even "we've always played it that way" is going to have far less weight for me than a rule cited from the books. I will continue to consider your opinion on this matter to be erroneous until you can show me proof. Im not argueing with your rules, I think their very good. Now what about some of the other problems? What happens when you cast Charm Person and the person is Charmed by the sword? What happens when you store False Life? What/Who gets the temp hp?
clik_ml 10-08-06, 10:12 AM	You haven't been reading what I've been writing, have you? There are rules stating that the caster level is "CL 12th" in the ability description DMG 225), in the rules governing caster level for weapons (DMG 221) and in the rules describing the "stat block" for magic items (DMG 215). I have seen no rules suggesting that CL in = CL out, anywhere. Eh? That's the prufe that I haven't been reading? My response to that "rule" was that it is only applicable for determining the level required to create it, and absolutely nothing else. Granted my response isn't likely to convince someone who holds to that stat block like it's supposed to mean something, but that is my reasoning nonetheless, and I would have hoped that would be enough to grant that I am at least addressing points, much less not ignoring them utterly. Monte Cook has even written of his chagrin at his handling/inclusion of item caster levels, and I base much of my opinion on that the caster level for item creation is a guideline to be ignored for all other things on a blog Monte wrote once (since he is the primary author for that stuff his opinion on it seems quite germaine)... and I am now having difficulty finding it since his website has been restructured since then (I fear his old blogs are gone and replaced with arcana unearthed stuff). Anywho, yes, my basis of opinion is not on primary text, but rather the intent of the author (which to my mind, rules out using the item caster level and then leaves 2 options remaining, one of which is riddled with conundrums, leaving one final option- that the input caster is the same as the output caster). That doesn't make it erroneous however since the point is in contention.
kjenks 10-08-06, 10:21 AM	What happens when you cast Charm Person and the person is Charmed by the sword? Apparently. "Ooh, suddenly, I like your sword very much. In fact, I want to disarm it from you and take it home with me." What happens when you store False Life? What/Who gets the temp hp? I think the Spell Storing ability changes the usual spell targeting mechanism so that "Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires." So casting the False Life spell on that creature would give that creature 1d10+10 temporary HP for 12 hours.
kjenks 10-08-06, 12:46 PM	Monte Cook has even written of his chagrin at his handling/inclusion of item caster levels, and I base much of my opinion on that the caster level for item creation is a guideline to be ignored for all other things on a blog Monte wrote once (since he is the primary author for that stuff his opinion on it seems quite germaine)... and I am now having difficulty finding it since his website has been restructured since then (I fear his old blogs are gone and replaced with arcana unearthed stuff). Anywho, yes, my basis of opinion is not on primary text, but rather the intent of the author (which to my mind, rules out using the item caster level and then leaves 2 options remaining, one of which is riddled with conundrums, leaving one final option- that the input caster is the same as the output caster). That doesn't make it erroneous however since the point is in contention. So your opinion is based on your memory of a blog post that you can't find? I looked through Monte Cook's forums. I found a long, rambling discussion about this topic, but nothing from Cook himself. http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm14.showMessageRange?topi cID=4763.topic&start=1&stop=20 Since those ezboard links often don't work, here's how you get there. (1) Go to http://www.montecook.com/ (2) Click on Forums graphic/link (3) Scroll down, click on "D&D Rules" link (4) Look on page 19 for the topic "spells cast via spell-storing weapon" BTW, it doesn't make much sense to post anything to that long-dead thread.
zigspatty 10-08-06, 11:28 PM	You haven't been reading what I've been writing, have you? Au contraire. You've made your points remarkably well considering the less than clear rules material with which you have to work. There are rules stating that the caster level is "CL 12th" in the ability description DMG 225), in the rules governing caster level for weapons (DMG 221) and in the rules describing the "stat block" for magic items (DMG 215). Yes. And there are descriptions for the ring of spell-storing and ioun stone that explicitly set the caster level at the minimum needed to cast the spell, totally disregarding the CL given in the item description. Considering the similarity of the ability name, the common practice of applying the same rules to similar situations, and the sometimes glaring editorial errors in the core books, it's not surprising that a lot of DMs may adopt this more restrictive interpretion. I'd love to find a rule explicitly stating that CL in = CL out, but I've been unable to. If you've found something I haven't, please let us know what it is. It's a common sense approach to the ability description that is bolstered by the knowledge of how the imbue with spell ability works. Most DMs are funny in that they tend to look at the item description and if it doesn't say that spells cast into it come out at a different caster level than they went in, they don't change the caster level either. It may have the weakest written rules support, but I'm guessing this interpretation is the most common. You're right, though, it sure would be nice to have some explicit text that says that. I hate it when common sense doesn't apply. In the D&D fantasy world, even magic must follow its own rules. And having a spell cast in at level 14 and come out level 12 or cast it in at level 1 and come out at level 12 doesn't happen ANYWHERE else. For those who still think CL = miniumum necessary to cast the spell, please re-read DMG 215 -- the entire page. The structure of the paragraphs shows that the "CL = minimum" concept is discussed in the paragraph that begins with "Some individual items, notably those that simply store spells and nothing else, don’t get full-blown descriptions." Those are things like scrolls, potions, wands. The next paragraph, starting with "Items with full descriptions," makes it clear that the caster level is given in the item description. Those are things like armor, weapons and wondrous items. (Staves are exceptions.) And yet, the description says that's exactly how it works for the ring with the spell storing ability. Most magic items are reasonably clear about how long their effects last, though it's often immaterial whether the baddie will flee in terror for 12 rounds or 7 because he's effectively out of the fight. The CL given in item descriptions has long mystified me. The spell storing weapon ability is CL 12, yet Craft Arms and Armor can be done by a 5th level caster. (Guess that's why they need a 12th level creator?) but the minor ring of spell storing only needs a 5th level caster.... and the 4th level imbue with spell ability spell.... and the Forge Ring can only be done by a 12th level caster...Considering that the spells come out at minimum caster ability, why specify a CL at all? Expect table variation. Patty
clik_ml 10-09-06, 02:13 PM	So your opinion is based on your memory of a blog post that you can't find? Can't find it 'cause it ain't there anymore. All his older rants, raves, reviews etc. seem to have vamoosed. Hey, if you think that's frustrating for you, then imagine how annoying it is for me. :-) I still strongly feel that the intent was as I interpret things, but I am now more comfortable accepting that the rules as written are more in line with your assumptions. There's plenty of rules that as written I disagree with though, so that's fine too.
clik_ml 10-09-06, 10:02 PM	Now what about some of the other problems? What happens when you cast Charm Person and the person is Charmed by the sword? More fun would be a spell-stored suggestion. Then you could have magic mouth on the weapon cued to make the suggestion when triggered (yes, a magic mouth can't be the means of activating magical effects... nor is it technically the weapon making the suggestion perhaps, but it's too amusing to disallow darnit).
GrahamWills 10-13-06, 05:21 PM	Charm Person is troublesome in other ways, though. "Ooooh, stabbing me really shows what a terrific guy you are!" Oh, thanks! I had been wondering what sort of weapon to get for my swashbuckler/favored soul of Myrhiss. Clearly it must be a whip of spell storing, with charm person stored in it :)
kjenks 10-13-06, 07:26 PM	Whip doesn't work well since it must damage your opponent, and that's prevented by armor, natural and manufactured.
budleiser 10-25-06, 11:27 PM	Well so far have not had any problems at the tables. Everyone seems to play "comes out as it goes in" which im quite happy with. However that character just hit 1 TU so I won't get to spell store much until next year. Interestingly alot of tables did not have an Arcane Caster so I ended up with Inflict Serious Wounds. And when we did have an Arcane caster, I think I ended up with Magic Missle :( Amazingly I enjoyed the Druids spell the most Poison. For some reason one of the other players asked me if my Paladin would really put poison on his lance. PALADIN!? Im a Rog1/Marshal3/Fighter2/Ranger1/DM1 not a Paladin.
Lupo 10-26-06, 04:00 AM	<snip>Amazingly I enjoyed the Druids spell the most Poison. For some reason one of the other players asked me if my Paladin would really put poison on his lance. PALADIN!? Im a Rog1/Marshal3/Fighter2/Ranger1/DM1 not a Paladin. :plotting: ask your druid for "infestation of maggots":schemes: ciao martin m.
budleiser 11-07-06, 05:10 PM	Back again with new questions ;) What is the timing breakdown of a Spellstoring weapon going off. #1 Do I get to see if the creature died from original attack if his HP goes below 0 #2 Do I roll damage before choosing whether or not to cast the spell from storage? #3 If I roll under 50 damage can I choose the spell to go off, and will that help push it over 50 damage or will it be considered a seperate attack? #4 If I reach 50 damage, can I choose for the spell to go off and will they save vs the spell BEFORE making their save for massive damage? #5 Guess how many pages of debate will these questions cause?
_m_ 11-07-06, 05:47 PM	Back again with a new questions ;) #5 Guess how many pages of debate will these questions cause? i guess... 3
budleiser 11-09-06, 06:28 PM	Maybe with the weekend coming up ill finally get some answers on the latest questions
_m_ 11-09-06, 10:14 PM	here goes: ... maybe... but i wouldnt count on it :D
kjenks 11-12-06, 09:41 AM	Back again with new questions ;) What is the timing breakdown of a Spellstoring weapon going off. #1 Do I get to see if the creature died from original attack if his HP goes below 0 #2 Do I roll damage before choosing whether or not to cast the spell from storage? #3 If I roll under 50 damage can I choose the spell to go off, and will that help push it over 50 damage or will it be considered a seperate attack? #4 If I reach 50 damage, can I choose for the spell to go off and will they save vs the spell BEFORE making their save for massive damage? #5 Guess how many pages of debate will these questions cause? SRD === Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. === Since it's a free action, the wielder must take that action to do it. As far as I can tell, that's the only part that's unambiguous. The rest of your questions are open to DM interpretation. Since casting the spell requires a separate action from the wielder, it's hard to see how it could be interpreted as part of the same attack. If the spell is a separate attack, your answers are: #1 Do I get to see if the creature died from original attack if his HP goes below 0 - Yes #2 Do I roll damage before choosing whether or not to cast the spell from storage? - Yes #3 If I roll under 50 damage can I choose the spell to go off, and will that help push it over 50 damage or will it be considered a seperate attack? - Yes #4 If I reach 50 damage, can I choose for the spell to go off and will they save vs the spell BEFORE making their save for massive damage? - Yes However, the weapon does not seem to require a separate touch attack to inflict a touch spell like Cause Moderate Wounds. So it it's all part of the same attack, the answers would all be no.
budleiser 11-12-06, 06:12 PM	Thanks Kjenks. Since no one seems to have a definite answer on this is there someplace to send the question to get a higher ruling?
Silverlute 11-17-06, 03:03 AM	I have two things to say about this thread and then I'm leaving, never to return. 1. *hits head on hard surface* :banghead: 2. I've been using a spell storing sword for about 5 or 6 levels now in LG (I'm level 12) - never, ever has anyone told me (or even suggested) that the CL is set to 12, that the DC is based on the item, that rays won't work with the enchantment, or that my sword is the spell's caster. Ever. The only variation that I've run into between tables is on two points: do sudden metamagiced spells count as higher level for spellstoring (generally, no they work just fine - Yay! for sudden maximized, rod of empowered scorching rays with 3 rays!) and, if the weapon attack criticals, does the spell also critical (that's a mixed bag for answers, with no real rules backing on either side, although conservative DMs tend to go with a big NO). Just thought I'd let you people know how spell storing works in LG based on experience, not rules debate. Peace. :chicken:
JJeff 11-17-06, 03:32 AM	2. I've been using a spell storing sword for about 5 or 6 levels now in LG (I'm level 12) - never, ever has anyone told me (or even suggested) that the CL is set to 12, that the DC is based on the item, that rays won't work with the enchantment, or that my sword is the spell's caster. Ever. The only variation that I've run into between tables is on two points: do sudden metamagiced spells count as higher level for spellstoring (generally, no they work just fine - Yay! for sudden maximized, rod of empowered scorching rays with 3 rays!) and, if the weapon attack criticals, does the spell also critical (that's a mixed bag for answers, with no real rules backing on either side, although conservative DMs tend to go with a big NO). Well, I think that personally 1) Caster Level of the released spell is the CL of the person who cast it into the weapon 2) DC is based on the caster that cast the spell into the item 3) Rays DO NOT work in a spell storing weapon. I think this was in an article or FAQ somewhere. Spell to be stored has to have a Target entry to be considered a targeted spell. Rays only have a Effect: Ray entry and are not considered targetted. The spell creates a ray, YOU target, thus making rays a non-targetted spell. 4) MetaMagic works fine whether with Rods, Suddens or normal. I believe that it was said a metamagic-ed spell was the original level after casting is completed. Only exception is Heightened Spell (which only purposes is to increase the level of the spell) 5) If the weapon crits, the spell crits if it is one that requires an attack roll (like a touch spell)
kjenks 11-17-06, 08:02 AM	From what I can tell, the rules say: 1) Caster Level of the released spell is 12th (or 15th if the weapon has a +5 enhancement bonus) 2) DC has nothing to do with the caster that cast the spell into the item; it's fixed at "10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." 3) Rays do not work in a spell storing weapon because the spell is limited to a "targeted spell" 4) Metamagic works fine as long as the adjusted spell level is 3 or less 5) The rules don't say what happens on a critical hit And I can dig up page references and SRD quotes for those.
chesspiece 11-17-06, 10:52 AM	And from my experience of reading this debate repeatedly on various forums, my observations are: 1) Most DMs that haven't read / discussed the enhancement allow Rays to work. Once they join in a discussion / become aware of the Targetting requirement, almost everyone agrees that Rays don't work (with the exception of that spellcasting monk P-Class). 2) Folks are split on Crits. The majority don't allow the spell to crit though. Otherwise balance issues tend to crop up. (Why should keen scimitars / scythes be so much better for spell storing? Why not hold the spell until you confirm a crit?) A small number simply apply a 20/x2 crit for the spell that uses the attack roll from the weapon. 3) Folks are split on the 3 options for CL & DC (minimum vs actual caster vs CL12 & minimum DC). 4) If the Metamagic raises the slot (i.e. Empower Spell Feat), then most Judges treat it as the higher slot. If it doesn't raise the slot (i.e. Metamagic Rods) - I haven't seen enough data to tell if there's a majority opinion.
jstorrie 01-05-07, 08:10 PM	As far as #5 goes, the spell has been modified so that it no longer requires an attack roll; accordingly it cannot crit. You're not attacking with the spell; you have an item that is triggered by you succesfully attacking someone, whose triggered effect is a no-attack-roll-needed spell. Spells that don't need attack rolls don't crit.
katrick 01-06-07, 03:23 AM	no -to ray spells they are an effect not a target no -to crits just as you cannot crit with the frost\bane etc component(including spec materials) no -to creatures Hp<0 this is metagaming you only know it dropped no -to decision of casting after 50 Hp's (again metagaming) no -to Rods for Sorcerors (the spell must be a standard action or less) no -to rolling damage before activating as DR might mean no damage(meta) yes -to whip as it states damage (whip does non-lethal DAMAGE unless elemental) yes -to Sudden Feats (though very cheezy) yes -to stacking there is only one spell per spec ability (but using the same spell wouldn't as per stacking magic spells rules) As for the main problem: under the description for Spell Storing special ability it says; Stat Block CL12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level;Price +1 bonus. End Stat Block Ioun Stones have the same Prerequisite but very few other items do. Now one can clearly see the semi-colon deliniating the difference between Caster level and creator level(as per magic item descriptions in the DMG pg215), which is not in the description for Spell Storing Ring of any type. As prereqs for creation and caster level of item are different listings this proves Kens argument of spells being 12th level(stat blocks are universal for everything in LG and WotC products) This follows for Ioun Stones (which in the description states; Stored spells in the vibrant purple stone must be placed by a spellcaster but can be used by anyone (see Spell Storing Ring DMG pg223)ie only the fact it can be used by anyone not the entire Rings values. Now for the fun part take your Dire Ape companion put on Adamantine Bladed guantlets +1 Spell Storing x2 (2 of) (preferably before several days ago) cast into the Guantlets Vampiric Touch,Shocking Grasp,Confusion (from the bard) and Glitterdust,mithrall full plate +3(barding) cast Bulls Strength,Bears Endurance, Animal Growth,Barkskin,Greater Magic Fang (bite), Fly,Magic Circle Against x, Displacement, Extended Haste on Monkey, give him bracers of Quick Strike and send him through the dungeon, whilst watching on your Crystal Ball (laughing every time he rends) Forgot to mention the Helm of telepathy marty
budleiser 01-08-07, 02:36 PM	I've sent Cust Serv the following email: Hello, After 5 pages of arguing on the forums we came up with a list of questions for spell storing weapons that no one can answer. A: When the spell is used from a spell storing weapon what is the Caster level or DC of the spell? B: If a creature would die from my original attack, will my character know this before choosing to use the spell from spell storage? C: If the spell does damage, does this damage combine with the attack damage to reach 50 to force massive damage check? D: If the spell from storage has a save, and the creature also has to make a massive damage check, which do they roll for first? (And if the spell would lover their checks will that apply for the massive damage check) E: The spell maximum for spell storing weapon is 3, but can metamagic feats be applied that would count the spell as higher than 3? (Maximize, Empower, etc) F: The wording is confusing. Is the weapon the caster of the spell? If so how does this work with Vampiric Touch, does the weapon gain the temporary HP? How does this work with Charm Person? G: If the original attack with the spell storing weapon is a natural 20, and the roll is confirmed does the spell from it also crit? If so is the multiplier x2 or the same as the weapon used? I cross my fingers and hope I don't get the "Ask your DM" answer.
budleiser 01-08-07, 06:32 PM	Well I did get an answer and only a few hours after asking. Great job Chris! Greetings Bud, thank you for contacting us. A. While the spell storing ability doesn't specify, generally speaking they have been thought to be the caster level and DC given for the caster that places the spell into the weapon. Your DM is the final arbiter of this of course, since it isn't spelled out in the ability description. B. The description indicates that you can choose to use the ability as a free action "Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it..." This indicates that you would indeed know whether the creature was already dropped from the original attack or not, prior to making that decision. C. Given the information in answer B above, the spell would be considered separate from the actual attack, and not count toward the 50 needed in a single blow (in addition to the weapon damage) to determine whether the creature must make a saving throw for massive damage or not. D. You would make a saving throw from the spell (since it is counted separately from the weapon damage), and then from massive damage afterward, if the saving throw is provoked by the spell. It it is provoked by the weapon, then you make the saving throw prior to taking damage (or making a saving throw from the spell). E. Absolutely... anything but heighten, which is the only actual metamagic feat that affects the level of the spell. F. The spell will only ever have its normal effect, and not be multiplied with a successful critical hit. Please let me know if you need anymore help! Good Gaming! Chris. Customer Service Supervisor Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
_m_ 01-08-07, 09:25 PM	wow. it's refreshing to get a nice clear, actual response. this was heading down infinite monkeys soon.
pedr 01-08-07, 09:54 PM	Though it seems to contradict the one given in the other thread. I've not studied them, but they don't seem to be consistent!
_m_ 01-08-07, 09:59 PM	Though it seems to contradict the one given in the other thread. I've not studied them, but they don't seem to be consistent! what? something inconsistent in d&d!? i wont stand for it!!! *grin*
budleiser 01-08-07, 10:09 PM	Though it seems to contradict the one given in the other thread. I've not studied them, but they don't seem to be consistent! Yes they are consistent. A couple of questions differ from mine mind you. The way the answers are given are different. But the answers are the same. I think where your confused is: It is at the Minimum required, unless specifically made by a higher level wizards, then it will be based on his wizards who cast the stored spell. The grammar is awful, but the answer is "CL/DC is based on the original caster". Questions: When you use this enhancement: 1. Can you store ray effect spells in the weapon? (The text reads: "store a single targeted spell . . .") 2. Store a spell with Target: You ? 3. If the spell has an effect that includes the caster, such as Vampiric Touch, who get the benefit, the wielder of the weapon or the weapon itself? 4. What is the CL of a spell stored in a weapon? Is it the CL of the person who placed it in the weapon? Or is it the CL of the weapon? (As per the text of weapon enhancements and CL.) Or is it the minimum to cast the spell? (As per the default DMG rules.) 5. What is the save DC of a spell stored in a weapon? Is it the DC as if cast by the person who placed it in the weapon? Or is it the minimum required to cast the spell as per the default DMG rules? 6. Can you use Sudden <Metamagic> feats and Rods of <Metamagic> on spells placed in a spell storing weapon? What if this raises the level of the spell over 3rd? (Such as a sudden maximized vampiric touch.) 7. Slightly related, what is the general CL for other special effects from weapons and items like a rod of terror? Is it the minimum to cast the spell? Or is it the CL of the item? Answers: Thank you for contacting us. 1) Since there is no target, you could not use spells with an effect, instead of a target. 2) So long as there is a target entry in the description, yes. 3) The wielder of the weapon will gain the benefit. 4) It is at the Minimum required, unless specifically made by a higher level wizards, then it will be based on his wizards who cast the stored spell. 5) It is at the Minimum required, unless specifically made by a higher level wizards, then it will be based on his wizards who cast the stored spell. 6) Yes you can add the Metamagic feat to the spell before you store it. Only heighten will raise a spells level to above 3rd. 7) It is always the minimum needed to cast, unless otherwise specified.
kjenks 01-09-07, 08:54 AM	Even though I think they're wrong, this is excellent news for my 14th level sorceress. I'll be buying a Spell Storing weapon ASAP and I'll show this thread to DMs to justify the extra cheese. Empower Spell + Magic Missile at caster level 15 will be really nice. At caster level 5, it isn't worth much. Targeted Dispel Magic at caster level 15 is worth doing at APL 14+, but not at caster level 5. Slow at DC 21 is almost worth doing, but not at DC 14. We now have confirmation that Target: You spells work here (from the other thread, <http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763179&page=2>). This means my sorceress can pass around Extend Spell + False Life spells to the party by smacking them with the Spell Storing weapon for nonlethal damage.
budleiser 01-09-07, 09:05 AM	We now have confirmation that Target: You spells work here (from the other thread, <http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763179&page=2>). This means my sorceress can pass around Extend Spell + False Life spells to the party by smacking them with the Spell Storing weapon for nonlethal damage. Target You does work, but I think Its the wielder of the weapon that gets the benefit. (See #3) Meaning, you hand them the weapon and they hit you for non-lethal. Not you smack them. Either way with the info provided and printed the DM would need to acknowledge it works one way or the other.
kjenks 01-09-07, 10:03 AM	Target You does work, but I think Its the wielder of the weapon that gets the benefit. (See #3) Meaning, you hand them the weapon and they hit you for non-lethal. Not you smack them. Either way with the info provided and printed the DM would need to acknowledge it works one way or the other. Hmm. Since Customer Service says the wielder gets the benefit of Vampiric Touch, that does imply that the wielder should get the benefit of a Target: You spell when smacking someone. This gives us extra-good cheese: Spell Storing + True Strike. After your first hit, you get +20 on your next attack. That's worth a 25 gp scroll. (My sorceress doesn't have True Strike.) The weapon wielder could also attack something else, like a summoned monster, to get the benefit of a Target: You spell. That's a really good use of a 25 gp scroll -- or a 2 cp chicken. PHB Target: You spells, spell level 1-3: Alter Self, Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Arcane Sight, Sor/Wiz 3 Augury, Clr 2 Blink, Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Comprehend Languages, Brd 1, Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Disguise Self, Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Trickery 1 Divine Favor, Clr 1, Pal 1 Entropic Shield, Clr 1, Luck 1 Expeditious Retreat, Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 False Life, Sor/Wiz 2 Find Traps, Clr 2 Fire Shield, Warmage 3 Glibness, Brd 3 Invisibility Purge, Clr 3 Know Direction, Brd 0, Drd 0 Longstrider, Drd 1, Rgr 1, Travel 1 Meld into Stone, Clr 3, Drd 3 Mirror Image, Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Read Magic, Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Pal 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 0 See Invisibility, Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 2 Shield, Sor/Wiz 1 Speak with Animals, Brd 3, Drd 1, Rgr 1 Speak with Plants, Brd 4, Drd 3, Rgr 2 Tree Shape, Drd 2, Rgr 3 True Strike, Sor/Wiz 1 (I don't think Customer Service thought this all the way through before they made up this new set of rules. I don't think they even realized they were making up a new set of rules.)
budleiser 01-09-07, 10:08 AM	True Strike is mighty tasty and more useful than most spells I could hit an enemy with. Sure I could add XD6 from shocking grasp. Or I could grant +20 on the next attack that deals 50+. 25gp is worth it. Divine Favor is also great, but not from scroll. LOL Disguise self is hilarious.
kjenks 01-09-07, 10:16 AM	Spell Storing + True Strike is nice for offense, but Spell Storing + Divine Favor with a cranked-up caster level could be even nicer. For melee defense, Spell Storing + Mirror Image is delicious cheese. Spell Storing + Fire Shield (cast by a Warmage) is also really good. And I can't tell you the number of times my fighter wanted to have See Invisibility going so I could do a mounted lance charge. Yes, indeed, they really opened the cheese shop with this one.
budleiser 01-09-07, 10:20 AM	Spell Storing + True Strike is nice for offense, but Spell Storing + Divine Favor with a cranked-up caster level could be even nicer. For melee defense, Spell Storing + Mirror Image is delicious cheese. Spell Storing + Fire Shield (cast by a Warmage) is also really good. And I can't tell you the number of times my fighter wanted to have See Invisibility going so I could do a mounted lance charge. Yes, indeed, they really opened the cheese shop with this one. I'd say Spell Storing is worth the +1 upgrade Cost ;) (Of course we do have to print this out and explain it to the DM everytime now)
JamesMaissen 01-09-07, 02:01 PM	I'd say Spell Storing is worth the +1 upgrade Cost ;) (Of course we do have to print this out and explain it to the DM everytime now) And while that's nice and could be wieghed in the judge's decision, I don't see how printing it out is any more helpful than simply explaining how you think it should work and seeing what they think on it. -James
Samwise 01-09-07, 02:43 PM	I agree. The cheese possible with Target: You spells is absurd. But they are a target. Of course, I would just grab the errata document and add another entry at this point, but . . . As for the stacked caster levels and metamagic feats, that is precisely why I would always require such spells to be minimum level, and rule that using Sudden feats or Rods increases the spell level for purposes of spell storing and the like. But . . .
TheCobra 01-09-07, 03:10 PM	I don't see how y'all can claim spells with Target: You affect the wielder. The description of Spell Storing says you can "cast the spell on that creature." That aside, those customer service rulings are wild. Stack all the metamagic feats you want on that thing? Wow. That makes Spell Storing one of the best weapon abilities out there.
Howie23 01-09-07, 04:46 PM	That aside, those customer service rulings are wild. Stack all the metamagic feats you want on that thing? Wow. That makes Spell Storing one of the best weapon abilities out there. While customer service's ruling allows a stack of meta-magic feats on the spell w/o raising the spell level, the caster providing the spell still has to 1) have the feats and 2) have a spell slot that supports those stacked feats to prep in the first place. May not be as much of a constraint at high levels, but it certainly is in the mid range where the purchases first start. David
budleiser 01-09-07, 05:04 PM	While customer service's ruling allows a stack of meta-magic feats on the spell w/o raising the spell level, the caster providing the spell still has to 1) have the feats and 2) have a spell slot that supports those stacked feats to prep in the first place. May not be as much of a constraint at high levels, but it certainly is in the mid range where the purchases first start. David Yea this is all understood. It won't matter much though if they have it they have it if they don't they don't. As soon as they store it they rest and boom they get their slot back again.
TheCobra 01-09-07, 05:08 PM	Yeah, though rods and such would probably also work. No, it's not that amazing at lower levels. At higher levels, though, who could pass up starting the battle with a twinned, empowered vampiric touch? That's an average of 105 untyped damage. Not bad. Really stupid with Quick Draw.