Spells Cast on Yourself [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spells Cast on Yourself [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fakegoatee
06-05-07, 11:21 AM What sorts of spells can you cast "on yourself"?

The simplest answer (and so, my favorite), is that you can cast a spell "on yourself" if and only if either you can be the target of the spell, which means spell has to have a "Target" entry in its description, or the spell has "Range: Personal" in its description.

Some spells do not have a "Target" entry but have Range: 0. (Produce flame is one.) These spells do have "Effect:" entries, though. PHB p. 175 says, "Effect: Some spells ... create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present" (my italics). If a spell has an "Effect:" entry and no "Target:" entry, I'd have to say you don't cast it "on yourself" even if its range is 0.

Spells with Range: Personal are also an interesting case. Some such spells also say "Target: You," but others do not. (For example, blink has both entries, but zone of silence doesn't.) All of these, in my view, qualify as spells cast "on yourself," because PHB p. 175 says, "Personal: The spell affects only you."

This matters because the share spell ability for animal companions and familiars applies to spells a caster casts "on herself." My view is that you can share spells with personal range or of which you can be the target. Spells with personal range that also say "Target: You" can be cast on your familiar/animal companion as touch spells, while those with personal range but no "Target" entry cannot.

That means (to answer a question in another thread), you can't share produce flame. That spell does not have a target. Funnily enough, I see no way to forbid by RAW sharing contact other plane

So, here are a couple of questions I'd like to hear rules based answers to.

1. What is the right way to determine whether or not you have a cast a spell "on yourself"?

2. If you share contact other plane with your familiar (perhaps after first casting tongues on it), does it get to ask caster level / 2 questions, in addition to the ones you ask? Or can it ask questions instead of you? And if you're a divine oracle, does your familiar get two rolls for the results?
clannagh
06-06-07, 12:59 AM What sorts of spells can you cast "on yourself"?

The simplest answer (and so, my favorite), is that you can cast a spell "on yourself" if and only if either you can be the target of the spell, which means spell has to have a "Target" entry in its description, or the spell has "Range: Personal" in its description.

Some spells do not have a "Target" entry but have Range: 0. (Produce flame is one.) These spells do have "Effect:" entries, though. PHB p. 175 says, "Effect: Some spells ... create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present" (my italics). If a spell has an "Effect:" entry and no "Target:" entry, I'd have to say you don't cast it "on yourself" even if its range is 0.

Spells with Range: Personal are also an interesting case. Some such spells also say "Target: You," but others do not. (For example, blink has both entries, but zone of silence doesn't.) All of these, in my view, qualify as spells cast "on yourself," because PHB p. 175 says, "Personal: The spell affects only you."

This matters because the share spell ability for animal companions and familiars applies to spells a caster casts "on herself." My view is that you can share spells with personal range or of which you can be the target. Spells with personal range that also say "Target: You" can be cast on your familiar/animal companion as touch spells, while those with personal range but no "Target" entry cannot.

That means (to answer a question in another thread), you can't share produce flame. That spell does not have a target. Funnily enough, I see no way to forbid by RAW sharing contact other plane

So, here are a couple of questions I'd like to hear rules based answers to.

1. What is the right way to determine whether or not you have a cast a spell "on yourself"?

2. If you share contact other plane with your familiar (perhaps after first casting tongues on it), does it get to ask caster level / 2 questions, in addition to the ones you ask? Or can it ask questions instead of you? And if you're a divine oracle, does your familiar get two rolls for the results?

I tend to agree with your call on produce Flame .. but its not clear cut and many readit differently so ETV.
Fakegoatee
06-06-07, 09:18 AM I tend to agree with your call on produce Flame .. but its not clear cut and many readit differently so ETV.

The thing is, it looked pretty clear to me, given what the PHB says in the secton on spell descriptions about what "Effect," "Range," and "Target" entries mean. That's part of why I'm wondering how people who think you can share a "Range: 0" spell with an effect and no target interpret those rules.
katrick
06-06-07, 03:56 PM If you look at Freedom of Movement, this may answer some of your questions.
If not then get back to me on sharing spells with the Clone spell, this is definetly cast on oneself, Range 0ft; no target.
katrick
Fakegoatee
06-06-07, 04:52 PM If you look at Freedom of Movement, this may answer some of your questions.
If not then get back to me on sharing spells with the Clone spell, this is definetly cast on oneself, Range 0ft; no target.
katrick

I've just looked at freedom of movement, and I'm not sure what answers I'm supposed to be getting from it. It has personal or touch range, and it has targets.

Also, I'd like to hear why you think clone is definitely cast on oneself. The effect of the spell is to create an inert duplicate of a creature, which can be occupied by the original's soul if it is free and willing. If the spell is cast "on" anything, it looks like it's cast on its material component, a piece of the original's flesh.

(Compare: If I use major creation to make a sword that I can pick up and wield if I'm willing, I haven't cast the spell on myself. If I use clone to make a body my soul can occupy if I'm willing, I would have guessed I didn't cast that spell on myself either.)
katrick
06-06-07, 05:59 PM you cast on a piece of your flesh. it doesn't get much more "on yourself" than that.
And that's the only real avenue i see, as i doesn't mention range or effect or target only "on her\himself"
The answers were for you to decide, as Freedom had all the descriptors that were mentioned and it's text is different to most.(except range 0 i notice later)

In regards to Produce Flame, on a tangent; it actually has a range of 120ft(with no range penalties)
katrick
ShinAkuma2
06-06-07, 08:00 PM you cast on a piece of your flesh. it doesn't get much more "on yourself" than that.

I don't refer to disembodied hunks of my flesh as "myself".
katrick
06-07-07, 04:33 PM So following your claim of cast "on oneself", exactly how many creatures, can you and your Familiar Dim Door\Teleport.
katrick
Fakegoatee
06-07-07, 05:10 PM So following your claim of cast "on oneself", exactly how many creatures, can you and your Familiar Dim Door\Teleport.
katrick

I don't know. I can see two answers:

1. When you share these spells with your familiar, you can transport 1 additional medium creature per 3 CL, but it doesn't matter whether they're touching you or your familiar.

2. When you share these spells with your familiar, you can each transport 1 additional medium creature per 3 CL. So, with the help of your familiar, you could transport twice as many.

You can share the spells, but it's not clear what the effect of sharing the spell should be. The same goes for contact other plane. Maybe the familiar gets to ask just as many questions as you do, or maybe the total number of questions stays the same, but they can be asked by either you or your familiar.
katrick
06-07-07, 05:17 PM There was an item; bracers of spell sharing in a certain special, which halves the duration for the same affect.
I don't think it applies here as it was a special cert thingy?? But it might say this somewhere else, possibly the new Tome of Magic(NONC), which had the classes and stuff on the other special certs.(it's probably the only D&D accessory we don't have, inc 1st ed)
katrick
King Kashue
06-08-07, 12:41 AM In regards to Produce Flame, on a tangent; it actually has a range of 120ft(with no range penalties)
katrick

No, it doesn't.

The flames, when wielded as ranged weapons, have a range of 120ft.

The spell itself has Range: 0ft. (PHB p. 265)
King Kashue
06-08-07, 12:44 AM you cast on a piece of your flesh. it doesn't get much more "on yourself" than that.

I don't refer to disembodied hunks of my flesh as "myself".

Indeed. You don't cast it on yourself, you cast it on...

a piece of flesh...with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature's living body (PHB p.210).

It's explicitly cast on flesh that's been removed from the body to be cloned.
katrick
06-08-07, 11:49 AM Indeed. You don't cast it on yourself, you cast it on...

a piece of flesh...with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature's living body (PHB p.210).

It's explicitly cast on flesh that's been removed from the body to be cloned.
well, i would consider it to be myself, just like i consider the nine teeth i have in a jar to be my teeth, also my appendix, my gaulstones.

With a duration Instant and a 10 minute casting time, if it was my eye, it could still be attached and taken from my body and watching the proceedings.

So, the Raven gets upset when you poke it's eye out. it gets to tell the tale.
Obviously you lose the eye, but i haven't seen any rules about only one eye.

katrick
King Kashue
06-08-07, 07:31 PM well, i would consider it to be myself, just like i consider the nine teeth i have in a jar to be my teeth, also my appendix, my gaulstones.

Gall...unless you got them in 1st Millenia France :P

And seriously, when you point them out to people, you say "have I shown you myself"?

They're your teeth, your appendix, your gallstones...They're not you...

No one says, "can you give me a ride to the airport?" and then expects to see your pickled appendix driving the car...;)

And seriously, why do you have teeth in a jar? Unless you're a hockey player or rugger or something, that's mildly creepy :D
lunarfish
06-09-07, 12:19 AM And seriously, when you point them out to people, you say "have I shown you myself"?

You know, if I had pickled nine of my teeth and then were to show them to people, that's not a bad way to do it.

On topic, can you even share Teleport/DimDoor? That would be an excellent way to stretch the mileage of a single casting of Teleport/DimDoor, if it were to work as previously suggested.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fakegoatee 06-05-07, 11:21 AM	What sorts of spells can you cast "on yourself"? The simplest answer (and so, my favorite), is that you can cast a spell "on yourself" if and only if either you can be the target of the spell, which means spell has to have a "Target" entry in its description, or the spell has "Range: Personal" in its description. Some spells do not have a "Target" entry but have Range: 0. (Produce flame is one.) These spells do have "Effect:" entries, though. PHB p. 175 says, "Effect: Some spells ... create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present" (my italics). If a spell has an "Effect:" entry and no "Target:" entry, I'd have to say you don't cast it "on yourself" even if its range is 0. Spells with Range: Personal are also an interesting case. Some such spells also say "Target: You," but others do not. (For example, blink has both entries, but zone of silence doesn't.) All of these, in my view, qualify as spells cast "on yourself," because PHB p. 175 says, "Personal: The spell affects only you." This matters because the share spell ability for animal companions and familiars applies to spells a caster casts "on herself." My view is that you can share spells with personal range or of which you can be the target. Spells with personal range that also say "Target: You" can be cast on your familiar/animal companion as touch spells, while those with personal range but no "Target" entry cannot. That means (to answer a question in another thread), you can't share produce flame. That spell does not have a target. Funnily enough, I see no way to forbid by RAW sharing contact other plane So, here are a couple of questions I'd like to hear rules based answers to. 1. What is the right way to determine whether or not you have a cast a spell "on yourself"? 2. If you share contact other plane with your familiar (perhaps after first casting tongues on it), does it get to ask caster level / 2 questions, in addition to the ones you ask? Or can it ask questions instead of you? And if you're a divine oracle, does your familiar get two rolls for the results?
clannagh 06-06-07, 12:59 AM	What sorts of spells can you cast "on yourself"? The simplest answer (and so, my favorite), is that you can cast a spell "on yourself" if and only if either you can be the target of the spell, which means spell has to have a "Target" entry in its description, or the spell has "Range: Personal" in its description. Some spells do not have a "Target" entry but have Range: 0. (Produce flame is one.) These spells do have "Effect:" entries, though. PHB p. 175 says, "Effect: Some spells ... create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present" (my italics). If a spell has an "Effect:" entry and no "Target:" entry, I'd have to say you don't cast it "on yourself" even if its range is 0. Spells with Range: Personal are also an interesting case. Some such spells also say "Target: You," but others do not. (For example, blink has both entries, but zone of silence doesn't.) All of these, in my view, qualify as spells cast "on yourself," because PHB p. 175 says, "Personal: The spell affects only you." This matters because the share spell ability for animal companions and familiars applies to spells a caster casts "on herself." My view is that you can share spells with personal range or of which you can be the target. Spells with personal range that also say "Target: You" can be cast on your familiar/animal companion as touch spells, while those with personal range but no "Target" entry cannot. That means (to answer a question in another thread), you can't share produce flame. That spell does not have a target. Funnily enough, I see no way to forbid by RAW sharing contact other plane So, here are a couple of questions I'd like to hear rules based answers to. 1. What is the right way to determine whether or not you have a cast a spell "on yourself"? 2. If you share contact other plane with your familiar (perhaps after first casting tongues on it), does it get to ask caster level / 2 questions, in addition to the ones you ask? Or can it ask questions instead of you? And if you're a divine oracle, does your familiar get two rolls for the results? I tend to agree with your call on produce Flame .. but its not clear cut and many readit differently so ETV.
Fakegoatee 06-06-07, 09:18 AM	I tend to agree with your call on produce Flame .. but its not clear cut and many readit differently so ETV. The thing is, it looked pretty clear to me, given what the PHB says in the secton on spell descriptions about what "Effect," "Range," and "Target" entries mean. That's part of why I'm wondering how people who think you can share a "Range: 0" spell with an effect and no target interpret those rules.
katrick 06-06-07, 03:56 PM	If you look at Freedom of Movement, this may answer some of your questions. If not then get back to me on sharing spells with the Clone spell, this is definetly cast on oneself, Range 0ft; no target. katrick
Fakegoatee 06-06-07, 04:52 PM	If you look at Freedom of Movement, this may answer some of your questions. If not then get back to me on sharing spells with the Clone spell, this is definetly cast on oneself, Range 0ft; no target. katrick I've just looked at freedom of movement, and I'm not sure what answers I'm supposed to be getting from it. It has personal or touch range, and it has targets. Also, I'd like to hear why you think clone is definitely cast on oneself. The effect of the spell is to create an inert duplicate of a creature, which can be occupied by the original's soul if it is free and willing. If the spell is cast "on" anything, it looks like it's cast on its material component, a piece of the original's flesh. (Compare: If I use major creation to make a sword that I can pick up and wield if I'm willing, I haven't cast the spell on myself. If I use clone to make a body my soul can occupy if I'm willing, I would have guessed I didn't cast that spell on myself either.)
katrick 06-06-07, 05:59 PM	you cast on a piece of your flesh. it doesn't get much more "on yourself" than that. And that's the only real avenue i see, as i doesn't mention range or effect or target only "on her\himself" The answers were for you to decide, as Freedom had all the descriptors that were mentioned and it's text is different to most.(except range 0 i notice later) In regards to Produce Flame, on a tangent; it actually has a range of 120ft(with no range penalties) katrick
ShinAkuma2 06-06-07, 08:00 PM	you cast on a piece of your flesh. it doesn't get much more "on yourself" than that. I don't refer to disembodied hunks of my flesh as "myself".
katrick 06-07-07, 04:33 PM	So following your claim of cast "on oneself", exactly how many creatures, can you and your Familiar Dim Door\Teleport. katrick
Fakegoatee 06-07-07, 05:10 PM	So following your claim of cast "on oneself", exactly how many creatures, can you and your Familiar Dim Door\Teleport. katrick I don't know. I can see two answers: 1. When you share these spells with your familiar, you can transport 1 additional medium creature per 3 CL, but it doesn't matter whether they're touching you or your familiar. 2. When you share these spells with your familiar, you can each transport 1 additional medium creature per 3 CL. So, with the help of your familiar, you could transport twice as many. You can share the spells, but it's not clear what the effect of sharing the spell should be. The same goes for contact other plane. Maybe the familiar gets to ask just as many questions as you do, or maybe the total number of questions stays the same, but they can be asked by either you or your familiar.
katrick 06-07-07, 05:17 PM	There was an item; bracers of spell sharing in a certain special, which halves the duration for the same affect. I don't think it applies here as it was a special cert thingy?? But it might say this somewhere else, possibly the new Tome of Magic(NONC), which had the classes and stuff on the other special certs.(it's probably the only D&D accessory we don't have, inc 1st ed) katrick
King Kashue 06-08-07, 12:41 AM	In regards to Produce Flame, on a tangent; it actually has a range of 120ft(with no range penalties) katrick No, it doesn't. The flames, when wielded as ranged weapons, have a range of 120ft. The spell itself has Range: 0ft. (PHB p. 265)
King Kashue 06-08-07, 12:44 AM	you cast on a piece of your flesh. it doesn't get much more "on yourself" than that. I don't refer to disembodied hunks of my flesh as "myself". Indeed. You don't cast it on yourself, you cast it on... a piece of flesh...with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature's living body (PHB p.210). It's explicitly cast on flesh that's been removed from the body to be cloned.
katrick 06-08-07, 11:49 AM	Indeed. You don't cast it on yourself, you cast it on... a piece of flesh...with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature's living body (PHB p.210). It's explicitly cast on flesh that's been removed from the body to be cloned. well, i would consider it to be myself, just like i consider the nine teeth i have in a jar to be my teeth, also my appendix, my gaulstones. With a duration Instant and a 10 minute casting time, if it was my eye, it could still be attached and taken from my body and watching the proceedings. So, the Raven gets upset when you poke it's eye out. it gets to tell the tale. Obviously you lose the eye, but i haven't seen any rules about only one eye. katrick
King Kashue 06-08-07, 07:31 PM	well, i would consider it to be myself, just like i consider the nine teeth i have in a jar to be my teeth, also my appendix, my gaulstones. Gall...unless you got them in 1st Millenia France :P And seriously, when you point them out to people, you say "have I shown you myself"? They're your teeth, your appendix, your gallstones...They're not you... No one says, "can you give me a ride to the airport?" and then expects to see your pickled appendix driving the car...;) And seriously, why do you have teeth in a jar? Unless you're a hockey player or rugger or something, that's mildly creepy :D
lunarfish 06-09-07, 12:19 AM	And seriously, when you point them out to people, you say "have I shown you myself"? You know, if I had pickled nine of my teeth and then were to show them to people, that's not a bad way to do it. On topic, can you even share Teleport/DimDoor? That would be an excellent way to stretch the mileage of a single casting of Teleport/DimDoor, if it were to work as previously suggested.