Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 02-09-07, 02:45 AM	There just don't seem to be any instantaneous spells with a range greater than touch between levels 1-5 that are actually worth making into rays...The orbs cover the damage spectrum (Orb of Force most of all)...the only other spells that would be interesting to warp have durations, or are touch spells...A ray of black tentacles for instance...instead of a field, just the bad guy...or ray of mind fog...Any spells anyone else can find that are Open and worth warping, as in not covered by orb spells....
JJeff 02-09-07, 04:49 AM	Nothing much comes to mind, just that most of the spells that can be warped would be a lower level than the Orb (4th level) spells Ray of Burning Hands Ray of Fireball Ray of Hail of Stones etc... Just allows you to sneak with loads of spells and not just the Orbs and other normal rays.
Maesto 02-09-07, 08:19 AM	glitterdust doesn't sound bad either; you don't get the party, just the intended target (although chances of rolling a 1 now exist). could be fun with prestidigitate! Jolyon
Timlagor 02-09-07, 09:58 AM	Now if there was a feat that let you add damage to a non-damaging spell (so you could then add snat) that might be worthwhile.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-09-07, 01:16 PM	Nothing much comes to mind, just that most of the spells that can be warped would be a lower level than the Orb (4th level) spells Ray of Burning Hands Ray of Fireball Ray of Hail of Stones etc... Just allows you to sneak with loads of spells and not just the Orbs and other normal rays. Except all of those spells either have inferior damage to orbs, or are subject to SR...Greater Fireburst is the only spell I can come up with that would be superior, damage-wise, especially at 5th level with the free empower. glitterdust doesn't sound bad either; you don't get the party, just the intended target (although chances of rolling a 1 now exist). could be fun with prestidigitate! Jolyon Glitterdust isn't a warpable spell, as it is not instantaneous. Only spells with instantaneous duration are warpable...
copper_wyrmling 02-09-07, 03:00 PM	Except all of those spells either have inferior damage to orbs, or are subject to SR...Greater Fireburst is the only spell I can come up with that would be superior, damage-wise, especially at 5th level with the free empower. :eek: I don't have Complete Scoundrel yet. I need it... Just a note, if warping a spell makes it into a ray, then it would be a valid target for the Split Ray metamagic feat. *wanders away dreaming of sudden empowered split ray greater fireburst rays*
dkay807 02-09-07, 03:03 PM	:eek: I don't have Complete Scoundrel yet. I need it... Just a note, if warping a spell makes it into a ray, then it would be a valid target for the Split Ray metamagic feat. *wanders away dreaming of sudden empowered split ray greater fireburst rays* Absolutely.. I already sent Ibero a Spellwarp Sniper build that involves the ability to dole out at LEAST 450 damage in one attack (that can be split into two) that allows no save and deals sonic damage. And it's fairly repeatable with a Rod of Metamagic Maximize, or can only be done once with Sudden maximize. That class is quickly on its way to being moved to the CLOSED list. I'm calling it in the next Dispel Confusion.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-09-07, 03:13 PM	:eek: I don't have Complete Scoundrel yet. I need it... Just a note, if warping a spell makes it into a ray, then it would be a valid target for the Split Ray metamagic feat. *wanders away dreaming of sudden empowered split ray greater fireburst rays* Holy crap, you're a genius. A 15th level PC could do that once per day, and with a +1 CL bump, would do 2 rays each dealing 22.5d10, as well as getting +4/5d6 Sneak attack/Sudden Raystrike...Drawbacks being it would only be do-able by spontaneous casters, because you wouldn't normally be able to prepare a Split-Ray greater fireburst, because it doesn't become a ray until you cast it. Also, fire is the most common resistance/immunity, and it still has SR....261.5 average damage with a 7th level slot...ouch.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-09-07, 03:14 PM	Absolutely.. I already sent Ibero a Spellwarp Sniper build that involves the ability to dole out at LEAST 450 damage in one attack (that can be split into two) that allows no save and deals sonic damage. And it's fairly repeatable with a Rod of Metamagic Maximize, or can only be done once with Sudden maximize. That class is quickly on its way to being moved to the CLOSED list. I'm calling it in the next Dispel Confusion. Yeah...I never notice I have PM's....
dkay807 02-09-07, 03:18 PM	Elven Spell Lore - Greater Fireburst. Now it's sonic. I'm assuming you have 7 levels of warmage and 5 levels of spellwarp sniper for two sudden empowers a day. So only one would be maximized. If it has SR, use Blast of Flame. Heck, take Elven Spell Lore for that instead of Greater Fireburst... you don't need to do 450 damage in one shot anyway. 200 or so will kill it just fine, and then you're only using a 6th level slot, so you could use a rod of maximize to maximize it before you apply the sudden empower.
dkay807 02-09-07, 03:23 PM	Addendum.... if you have access to Blast of Sand, then you don't need to use your Elven Spell Lore selection for Blast of Flame. Blast of Sand works on EVERYTHING. Even objects. I've never heard of a creature that's immune to sand, but then again, I haven't read through all of Sandstorm.
copper_wyrmling 02-09-07, 03:35 PM	Elven Spell Lore - Greater Fireburst. Now it's sonic. I'm assuming you have 7 levels of warmage and 5 levels of spellwarp sniper for two sudden empowers a day. So only one would be maximized. If it has SR, use Blast of Flame. Heck, take Elven Spell Lore for that instead of Greater Fireburst... you don't need to do 450 damage in one shot anyway. 200 or so will kill it just fine, and then you're only using a 6th level slot, so you could use a rod of maximize to maximize it before you apply the sudden empower. I thought Elven Spell Lore only worked on prepared spells, but could be wrong. Blast of Sand works fine though. My ray-specialist sorcerer may not be a fatespinner when she hits the high-level campaign after all ;) (would rogue 1 / sorc 4 / wildmage 10 / spellwarp sniper 5 work?)
dkay807 02-09-07, 03:39 PM	I thought Elven Spell Lore only worked on prepared spells, but could be wrong. Blast of Sand works fine though. My ray-specialist sorcerer may not be a fatespinner when she hits the high-level campaign after all ;) (would rogue 1 / sorc 4 / wildmage 10 / spellwarp sniper 5 work?) You are absolutely correct, I just re-read it. And Blast of Sand is conjuration, so Warmages probably couldn't cast it. Sadface.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-09-07, 04:24 PM	Also, it seems people are assuming you'll have access to a Medium/Greater Rod of Maximize at the same time you can afford it...yeah right. Still, Empowered Split Ray Greater Fireburst for pure damage, or Empowered Split Ray Acid Orb. The orbs cap at 15d6, not 10d6 like Blast of Flame. 45d6 Acid Damage, No SR. You need to prepare spells to use elven spell lore to change the energy type, so either Wiz, or take Arcane Peparation. Race:Elf Alignment: STR-10 (2) DEX-16 (10)+2 CON-14 (6)-2 INT-10 (2) WIS-8 (0) CHA-15 (8) Lv1(Rogue)Point Blank Shot Lv2(Warmage) Lv3(Warmage)Spell Focus (Evocation) Lv4(Warmage)+1 CHA Lv5(Warmage) Lv6(Warmage)Empower Spell Lv7(Warmage) Lv8(Spellwarp Sniper)+1 CHA Lv9(Spellwarp Sniper)Metamagic School Focus Lv10(Spellwarp Sniper)Precise Shot Lv11(Spellwarp Sniper) Lv12(Spellwarp Sniper)Split Ray, +1 CHA Lv13(Unseen Seer) Lv14(Unseen Seer) Lv15(Warmage)Rapid Metamagic There is no way to make Elven Spell Lore mesh with split ray for anything that is not already a ray, because you would have to prepare it as a Sonic Split Ray version, so it doesn't work for blast of flame, fireburst, or any of the orbs as none of them are rays to begin with. Unseen Seer is in there to pick up Grave Strike and another d6 Sneak Attack. So for maximum damage at 13th level (Not counting equipment), using a 6th level spell slot 2/day, Sudden Empowered Split Ray Greater Fireburst for 2 rays at 19.5d10 each, avg total damage=214.5, and you can follow up with an Empowered Split Ray Fireball/Lightning Bolt for 15d6 per ray as a 5th level slot. This uses up Both Sudden Empowers and all 3 uses of Metamagic School Focus per day. Take Twin Spell at 15th, and you can do a Sudden Empowered Twinned Split Ray Scorching Ray, for 8 rays at 6d6, or 48d6. Not as great average Damage, but can target more foes, and is arguably more impressive looking, Scorching Raystorm!
copper_wyrmling 02-09-07, 05:42 PM	There is no way to make Elven Spell Lore mesh with split ray for anything that is not already a ray, because you would have to prepare it as a Sonic Split Ray version, so it doesn't work for blast of flame, fireburst, or any of the orbs as none of them are rays to begin with. Unseen Seer is in there to pick up Grave Strike and another d6 Sneak Attack. So for maximum damage at 13th level (Not counting equipment), using a 6th level spell slot 2/day, Sudden Empowered Split Ray Greater Fireburst for 2 rays at 19.5d10 each, avg total damage=214.5, and you can follow up with an Empowered Split Ray Fireball/Lightning Bolt for 15d6 per ray as a 5th level slot. This uses up Both Sudden Empowers and all 3 uses of Metamagic School Focus per day. Take Twin Spell at 15th, and you can do a Sudden Empowered Twinned Split Ray Scorching Ray, for 8 rays at 6d6, or 48d6. Not as great average Damage, but can target more foes, and is arguably more impressive looking, Scorching Raystorm! Ooh. I am hearing "Metamagic School Focus reduces metamagic cost 3/day". Is that correct? And if so, grumble, grumble, not enough TUs for all the retraining I'd like to do :P
DerekSTheRed 02-11-07, 03:30 PM	My gray elf wizard is already set up for Spellwarped Sniper. I've already got Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Since I've already got Precise Shot, I plan on taking Deadeye Shot at the third level of Spellwarped Sniper (instead of precise shot). It allows you to ready an action to attack when an ally hits. Doing so denies him his dex bonus giving you sneak attack. Say I'm 12th level and I cast a Split Orb of Force with sudden empower during my readied action. That's 15d6(x1.5) + 2d6 twice. That averages 171.5 points of damage or about 284 if you have a metamagic rod of maximize (the sneak attack damage isn't maximized). All of this can be done at 60 feet away and heaven forbid you're doing this as a coup de grace. This requires that you're ally hit (you would only do this with certain allies like an archer) and that you hit with both rays which is likely considering that it's a touch attack and the defender is flat-footed. Although, you can always roll a one. As kewl as the Spellwarped Sniper is, it's not really broken. It's the Split Ray feat that really does the damage. Derek
copper_wyrmling 02-11-07, 05:48 PM	My gray elf wizard is already set up for Spellwarped Sniper. I've already got Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Since I've already got Precise Shot, I plan on taking Deadeye Shot at the third level of Spellwarped Sniper (instead of precise shot). It allows you to ready an action to attack when an ally hits. Doing so denies him his dex bonus giving you sneak attack. Say I'm 12th level and I cast a Split Orb of Force with sudden empower during my readied action. That's 15d6(x1.5) + 2d6 twice. That averages 171.5 points of damage or about 284 if you have a metamagic rod of maximize (the sneak attack damage isn't maximized). All of this can be done at 60 feet away and heaven forbid you're doing this as a coup de grace. This requires that you're ally hit (you would only do this with certain allies like an archer) and that you hit with both rays which is likely considering that it's a touch attack and the defender is flat-footed. Although, you can always roll a one. As kewl as the Spellwarped Sniper is, it's not really broken. It's the Split Ray feat that really does the damage. Derek Does Spellwarp Sniper let you warp orb spells? If not, no Split Ray Orb of Force for you - it's not a ray spell. Also, you won't get sneak attack separately on the two rays in a split ray - it just adds an extra ray to the spell, so it should follow the precedent of multiple-ray spells which explicitly only give sneak damage on one ray. And finally, Orb of Force caps at 10d6. Split Ray is a nice feat, but not particularly broken provided you stick to the rules on what it can be applied to (no orb spells, no energy missile spells, no targeted spells - only rays), and remember that it only adds one ray rather than doubling the total number. Split Ray Enervation is pretty though :)
Crazy Boro 02-11-07, 05:56 PM	Does Spellwarp Sniper let you warp orb spells? Allows you to warp area spells into rays.
Timlagor 02-11-07, 05:59 PM	Split Ray doesn't actually specify Rays.
copper_wyrmling 02-11-07, 06:02 PM	Split Ray doesn't actually specify Rays. Um, yes it does. "You can cause any ray spell to fire one additional ray beyond the number normally allowed." First line of the benefit text. Are we looking at different versions of the feat? Mine is from Complete Arcane.
Timlagor 02-11-07, 06:09 PM	Nope i think I'm just imagining things. Sorry about that.
Gelth 02-11-07, 06:27 PM	Am I correct that people are planning on getting multiple sneak attacks off one spell by Split Raying it? That shouldn't work for the same reason that multiple sneak attacks off Scorching Ray doesn't work. --Penn, Ket Triad
GenghisBob 02-11-07, 07:47 PM	There just don't seem to be any instantaneous spells with a range greater than touch between levels 1-5 that are actually worth making into rays...The orbs cover the damage spectrum (Orb of Force most of all)...the only other spells that would be interesting to warp have durations, or are touch spells...A ray of black tentacles for instance...instead of a field, just the bad guy...or ray of mind fog...Any spells anyone else can find that are Open and worth warping, as in not covered by orb spells.... How about grease? as it is a reflex save, the save is removed and the guy goes down on a succesful range touch. New Question: Does the Ray strike qualify as Sneak attack Dmg for entry into Arcane Trickster?
Timlagor 02-11-07, 07:54 PM	Grease is just... sneaky Ray Strike is no SnAt so won't get you into AT.
awroe 02-11-07, 08:03 PM	How about grease? as it is a reflex save, the save is removed and the guy goes down on a succesful range touch. Grease has a duration, so can't be converted. Only instantaneous spells...