spikes nerfed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

spikes nerfed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ramacass
12-07-06, 04:18 AM I remember reading somewhere that the Spikes spell got nerfed but there, were no specifics as to how it was nerfed. I checked the errata for the complete divine but didn't see anything.

Also if you cast spikes on a double weapon(staff) does it enhance both ends or do you have to cast it twice once on each end
Lupo
12-07-06, 04:33 AM I remember reading somewhere that the Spikes spell got nerfed but there, were no specifics as to how it was nerfed. I checked the errata for the complete divine but didn't see anything.

Also if you cast spikes on a double weapon(staff) does it enhance both ends or do you have to cast it twice once on each end

"spikes" is reprinted in a slightly edited version in the spell compendium, now it lasts only minutes per level and does not stack like before.

it was banned till the spell compendium was released.

you are only allowed to use the spell compendium's version of any reprinted spell in LG.

for the double weapon question; i believe it says something like "the weapon is enchanted" so it would go for both sides of a double weapon (sorry no books at work).

ciao

martin m.
Ramacass
12-07-06, 04:36 AM How exactly was it changed, 1min/per level or 10min/level? anyone?
Simpi
12-07-06, 09:38 AM How exactly was it changed, 1min/per level or 10min/level? anyone?

I suggest you get a copy of Spell Compendium. After all, even if somebody tells you on internet forum what the spell does, that is not an acceptable document in a way that it would allow you to use the spell in gaming table. I know I surely would not allow it.

Sampo Haarlaa
Naerie Triad
copper_wyrmling
12-07-06, 01:26 PM The duration is rounds / level, but also the bonus to damage now has a type, preventing stacking with Brambles (and certain other spells). As Sampo said, for more details, read the Spell Compendium.

I encountered a couple of GMs in my original play region who didn't allow it to work on both ends of a double weapon with one casting. I used to ask judges at conventions for a ruling at the start of every game, but after a couple of years where every judge said "yes, take the bonus on both ends", I decided it wasn't worth the time in a convention slot, and I now just assume it works unless a judge tells me otherwise - although maybe I should start again now, having moved to a completely new region with a different pool of judges.
Britt
12-07-06, 01:30 PM I would require two castings on a double weapon. Double weapons require enchantment of both ends and are treated effectively as two weapons for things like TWF.
copper_wyrmling
12-07-06, 02:16 PM I would require two castings on a double weapon. Double weapons require enchantment of both ends and are treated effectively as two weapons for things like TWF.

Double weapons are specifically called out as being treated as two weapons for the purpose of permanent enhancements. They're quite obviously not treated as two weapons for stuff like shatter, grease, sunder and disarm (i.e. I can't drop half my quarterstaff). They're also not uniformly treated as two separate weapons for special materials costs and being made masterwork (you can't have one masterwork and one non-masterwork head, although you pay double the usual price to make the whole weapon masterwork).

You can argue both ways (and Infinite Monkeys has gone through it a couple of times), because the rules give some situations where they're treated as two weapons, and some where they're not, and doesn't give any obvious way for distinguishing the two. Brambles / Spikes act on "one wooden weapon touched" and make thorns grow from the striking surface of the weapon, causing the weapon to gain a bonus on its attack and damage rolls. Unlike Weapon of the Deity, in the same book, they do not specify that they work on only one head of a double weapon. Unlike Shillelagh, in the PHB, they do not have a bracketed note that they work on both heads. If you play with certain GMs regularly, it's probably worth checking how they feel on this. I expected a lot more table variation than I actually got, at least at Australian cons. It's not something I'll argue at the table, since it is a grey area, although if we have time and the GM hasn't thought about the issue I'll run through the arguments I've just given.

(I may also be benefiting from the fact that by my level, this is a REALLY suboptimal tactic, especially since if my cleric wants to show off with her whirling-staff-of-doom routine, it's usually Quickened Brambles from a L6 slot. That is, a slot that could also be Harm or Bolt of Glory, or Wind Walk / Find the Path / various other module-altering spells... That knowledge may be skewing GM rulings towards making it a suboptimal but fun tactic, rather than sufficiently pointless that I'd never do it.)
clannagh
12-07-06, 05:25 PM shillelagh effects both ends of a quarter staff with one cast
_m_
12-07-06, 08:12 PM shillelagh effects both ends of a quarter staff with one cast

well sort of. it kind of turns it into something else, rather than buffing whats there.
copper_wyrmling
12-09-06, 06:37 PM well sort of. it kind of turns it into something else, rather than buffing whats there.

Not really... the spell says "A quarterstaff gains this enhancement for both ends of the weapon". It's definitely still a staff, just one that does more damage. I believe the 3.0 version was different, if you're thinking of that.
katrick
12-13-06, 03:41 AM it was nerfed from the 3.0 builder books where it stacked and did a lot more damage a friend use to use it to great effect but he's not here and i can't find which book it was in it may have been in the first conversion circa 593
Katrick
_m_
12-18-06, 05:33 PM Not really... the spell says "A quarterstaff gains this enhancement for both ends of the weapon". It's definitely still a staff, just one that does more damage. I believe the 3.0 version was different, if you're thinking of that.

no, i was thinking of 3.5. i see what you me though.

what i was trying to say was that it kind of just makes the quaterstaff bigger and chunkier, it couldnt really do it to one end.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramacass 12-07-06, 04:18 AM	I remember reading somewhere that the Spikes spell got nerfed but there, were no specifics as to how it was nerfed. I checked the errata for the complete divine but didn't see anything. Also if you cast spikes on a double weapon(staff) does it enhance both ends or do you have to cast it twice once on each end
Lupo 12-07-06, 04:33 AM	I remember reading somewhere that the Spikes spell got nerfed but there, were no specifics as to how it was nerfed. I checked the errata for the complete divine but didn't see anything. Also if you cast spikes on a double weapon(staff) does it enhance both ends or do you have to cast it twice once on each end "spikes" is reprinted in a slightly edited version in the spell compendium, now it lasts only minutes per level and does not stack like before. it was banned till the spell compendium was released. you are only allowed to use the spell compendium's version of any reprinted spell in LG. for the double weapon question; i believe it says something like "the weapon is enchanted" so it would go for both sides of a double weapon (sorry no books at work). ciao martin m.
Ramacass 12-07-06, 04:36 AM	How exactly was it changed, 1min/per level or 10min/level? anyone?
Simpi 12-07-06, 09:38 AM	How exactly was it changed, 1min/per level or 10min/level? anyone? I suggest you get a copy of Spell Compendium. After all, even if somebody tells you on internet forum what the spell does, that is not an acceptable document in a way that it would allow you to use the spell in gaming table. I know I surely would not allow it. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
copper_wyrmling 12-07-06, 01:26 PM	The duration is rounds / level, but also the bonus to damage now has a type, preventing stacking with Brambles (and certain other spells). As Sampo said, for more details, read the Spell Compendium. I encountered a couple of GMs in my original play region who didn't allow it to work on both ends of a double weapon with one casting. I used to ask judges at conventions for a ruling at the start of every game, but after a couple of years where every judge said "yes, take the bonus on both ends", I decided it wasn't worth the time in a convention slot, and I now just assume it works unless a judge tells me otherwise - although maybe I should start again now, having moved to a completely new region with a different pool of judges.
Britt 12-07-06, 01:30 PM	I would require two castings on a double weapon. Double weapons require enchantment of both ends and are treated effectively as two weapons for things like TWF.
copper_wyrmling 12-07-06, 02:16 PM	I would require two castings on a double weapon. Double weapons require enchantment of both ends and are treated effectively as two weapons for things like TWF. Double weapons are specifically called out as being treated as two weapons for the purpose of permanent enhancements. They're quite obviously not treated as two weapons for stuff like shatter, grease, sunder and disarm (i.e. I can't drop half my quarterstaff). They're also not uniformly treated as two separate weapons for special materials costs and being made masterwork (you can't have one masterwork and one non-masterwork head, although you pay double the usual price to make the whole weapon masterwork). You can argue both ways (and Infinite Monkeys has gone through it a couple of times), because the rules give some situations where they're treated as two weapons, and some where they're not, and doesn't give any obvious way for distinguishing the two. Brambles / Spikes act on "one wooden weapon touched" and make thorns grow from the striking surface of the weapon, causing the weapon to gain a bonus on its attack and damage rolls. Unlike Weapon of the Deity, in the same book, they do not specify that they work on only one head of a double weapon. Unlike Shillelagh, in the PHB, they do not have a bracketed note that they work on both heads. If you play with certain GMs regularly, it's probably worth checking how they feel on this. I expected a lot more table variation than I actually got, at least at Australian cons. It's not something I'll argue at the table, since it is a grey area, although if we have time and the GM hasn't thought about the issue I'll run through the arguments I've just given. (I may also be benefiting from the fact that by my level, this is a REALLY suboptimal tactic, especially since if my cleric wants to show off with her whirling-staff-of-doom routine, it's usually Quickened Brambles from a L6 slot. That is, a slot that could also be Harm or Bolt of Glory, or Wind Walk / Find the Path / various other module-altering spells... That knowledge may be skewing GM rulings towards making it a suboptimal but fun tactic, rather than sufficiently pointless that I'd never do it.)
clannagh 12-07-06, 05:25 PM	shillelagh effects both ends of a quarter staff with one cast
_m_ 12-07-06, 08:12 PM	shillelagh effects both ends of a quarter staff with one cast well sort of. it kind of turns it into something else, rather than buffing whats there.
copper_wyrmling 12-09-06, 06:37 PM	well sort of. it kind of turns it into something else, rather than buffing whats there. Not really... the spell says "A quarterstaff gains this enhancement for both ends of the weapon". It's definitely still a staff, just one that does more damage. I believe the 3.0 version was different, if you're thinking of that.
katrick 12-13-06, 03:41 AM	it was nerfed from the 3.0 builder books where it stacked and did a lot more damage a friend use to use it to great effect but he's not here and i can't find which book it was in it may have been in the first conversion circa 593 Katrick
_m_ 12-18-06, 05:33 PM	Not really... the spell says "A quarterstaff gains this enhancement for both ends of the weapon". It's definitely still a staff, just one that does more damage. I believe the 3.0 version was different, if you're thinking of that. no, i was thinking of 3.5. i see what you me though. what i was trying to say was that it kind of just makes the quaterstaff bigger and chunkier, it couldnt really do it to one end.