Spring (Touch) Attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spring (Touch) Attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Munkwunk
01-24-07, 11:30 PM I was just wondering what everyone thought of this: is it possible to deliver a touch spell during a spring attack? Here is the relevant info from the SRD:

(Spring Attack): When using the attack action with a melee weapon...

(Touch spells): In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.

(Touch attacks): Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack ... Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks.

What all of this says to me is that:
A) Spring attacks must be made with a melee weapon
B) Touch spells are melee attacks
C) You may moe before or after casting the spell

The only thing I'm nto clear on (and the rules don't clearly support) is whether or not making the touch attack is part of an attack action (and thus usable with Spring Attack) or if it is part of the spell casting (and thus is not usable with Spring Attack).

I do know for certain that if you hold the charge until the round following the casting of the spell that you can deliver the spell with a normal unarmed strike, which means it would definitely be Spring Attackable on Round 2. I do have a feeling that you probably can't Spring Attack with the touch spell on Round 1 (since it doesn't seem to be part of an attack action, at least not specifically) but that's why I thought I'd ask.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? If I were to Spring Attack with a touch spell, would I have to wait until Round 2 and deliver it with a normal unarmed strike, or could I Spring Attack directly after casting the spell?
Akhamshyy
01-25-07, 01:12 AM The feat you are looking for is Mobile Spellcasting out of the Complete Adventurer.
It requires a 20+spell level Concentration check, and of course some ranks in Concentration. It does not nullify AoOs from moving or casting the spell it simply allows you to move and cast a spell as one action. Allowing say a cleric to cast cure and move up to the fighter, heal'em then move away.

To spring you'd need that weapon. If you can deliver touches through a weapon, I'd let you spring. But not for a bare touch, there's another feat for that.
Munkwunk
01-25-07, 01:47 AM Whops. I forgot to mention I'm already aware of Mobile Spellcasting (my cleric already has it). I was wondering specifically about touch spells.
Akhamshyy
01-25-07, 02:03 AM It's the wording in Spring Attack that binds us.
"When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move before and after the attack,"
Not much room for compromise there I'm afraid.
Gwumph
01-25-07, 02:40 AM unless you had improved umarmed strike, making your hands melee weapons

if you had the feat improved unarmed strike, I would allow it.
Munkwunk
01-25-07, 02:47 AM Well, you are considered armed when you are holding a charge from a touch spell, and it is a melee touch attack (making it an unarmed melee weapon).

What I do agree with is that the wording of Spring Attack including "as part of an attack action" is sort of binding. The entry for touch spells doesn't really specify whether you deliver the touch as part of an attack action, just that you get to deliver a touch after casting the spell.
shuntsbe
01-25-07, 04:07 AM During the round when you cast the spell (standard action),
you can move and touch without any additional requirement.
However, you may not Spring Attack or Unarmed Strike
or anything else that normally requires the attack action.

If you miss and hold the charge, then during later rounds
you can make a touch attack or an Unarmed Strike attack.
Either one of these could use Spring Attack if you have it.

It is a question of the "cast a spell" vs. the "attack" action.
See also "actions in combat" regarding critical hits, etc.
Munkwunk
01-25-07, 12:11 PM That's sort of what I figured, I just wanted some other opinions in case I was horribly mistaken. :) Thanks.
Mattastrophic
01-25-07, 12:42 PM Well, you're armed when you're holding the charge on a touch spell. If you can take Weapon Focus (touch spell), then it definitely fits the bill as a 'melee weapon.'

But, what we know you can't do is cast, then use Spring Attack. However, what you can do is cast the touch spell, hold the charge, which 'arms you' with a melee weapon. Then next round you can use Spring Attack, since you can use the attack action to deliver a touch spell, to move, touch a target, then move again.

BTW, if you Quicken that touch spell at the beginning of your turn, you still have your move and standard left, which you can use to Spring Attack.

-Matt
thorinXXX
01-29-07, 02:54 PM On the round of casting the spell your standard action is Cast Spell, not Attack, so you cannot Spring Attack. The fact that you can make an attack as part of the casting is irrelevant.
On subsequent rounds, as long as the charge is still being held, you may Spring Attack as the standard action you will be using is the Attack action.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Munkwunk 01-24-07, 11:30 PM	I was just wondering what everyone thought of this: is it possible to deliver a touch spell during a spring attack? Here is the relevant info from the SRD: (Spring Attack): When using the attack action with a melee weapon... (Touch spells): In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. (Touch attacks): Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack ... Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. What all of this says to me is that: A) Spring attacks must be made with a melee weapon B) Touch spells are melee attacks C) You may moe before or after casting the spell The only thing I'm nto clear on (and the rules don't clearly support) is whether or not making the touch attack is part of an attack action (and thus usable with Spring Attack) or if it is part of the spell casting (and thus is not usable with Spring Attack). I do know for certain that if you hold the charge until the round following the casting of the spell that you can deliver the spell with a normal unarmed strike, which means it would definitely be Spring Attackable on Round 2. I do have a feeling that you probably can't Spring Attack with the touch spell on Round 1 (since it doesn't seem to be part of an attack action, at least not specifically) but that's why I thought I'd ask. Anyone have any thoughts on this? If I were to Spring Attack with a touch spell, would I have to wait until Round 2 and deliver it with a normal unarmed strike, or could I Spring Attack directly after casting the spell?
Akhamshyy 01-25-07, 01:12 AM	The feat you are looking for is Mobile Spellcasting out of the Complete Adventurer. It requires a 20+spell level Concentration check, and of course some ranks in Concentration. It does not nullify AoOs from moving or casting the spell it simply allows you to move and cast a spell as one action. Allowing say a cleric to cast cure and move up to the fighter, heal'em then move away. To spring you'd need that weapon. If you can deliver touches through a weapon, I'd let you spring. But not for a bare touch, there's another feat for that.
Munkwunk 01-25-07, 01:47 AM	Whops. I forgot to mention I'm already aware of Mobile Spellcasting (my cleric already has it). I was wondering specifically about touch spells.
Akhamshyy 01-25-07, 02:03 AM	It's the wording in Spring Attack that binds us. "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move before and after the attack," Not much room for compromise there I'm afraid.
Gwumph 01-25-07, 02:40 AM	unless you had improved umarmed strike, making your hands melee weapons if you had the feat improved unarmed strike, I would allow it.
Munkwunk 01-25-07, 02:47 AM	Well, you are considered armed when you are holding a charge from a touch spell, and it is a melee touch attack (making it an unarmed melee weapon). What I do agree with is that the wording of Spring Attack including "as part of an attack action" is sort of binding. The entry for touch spells doesn't really specify whether you deliver the touch as part of an attack action, just that you get to deliver a touch after casting the spell.
shuntsbe 01-25-07, 04:07 AM	During the round when you cast the spell (standard action), you can move and touch without any additional requirement. However, you may not Spring Attack or Unarmed Strike or anything else that normally requires the attack action. If you miss and hold the charge, then during later rounds you can make a touch attack or an Unarmed Strike attack. Either one of these could use Spring Attack if you have it. It is a question of the "cast a spell" vs. the "attack" action. See also "actions in combat" regarding critical hits, etc.
Munkwunk 01-25-07, 12:11 PM	That's sort of what I figured, I just wanted some other opinions in case I was horribly mistaken. :) Thanks.
Mattastrophic 01-25-07, 12:42 PM	Well, you're armed when you're holding the charge on a touch spell. If you can take Weapon Focus (touch spell), then it definitely fits the bill as a 'melee weapon.' But, what we know you can't do is cast, then use Spring Attack. However, what you can do is cast the touch spell, hold the charge, which 'arms you' with a melee weapon. Then next round you can use Spring Attack, since you can use the attack action to deliver a touch spell, to move, touch a target, then move again. BTW, if you Quicken that touch spell at the beginning of your turn, you still have your move and standard left, which you can use to Spring Attack. -Matt
thorinXXX 01-29-07, 02:54 PM	On the round of casting the spell your standard action is Cast Spell, not Attack, so you cannot Spring Attack. The fact that you can make an attack as part of the casting is irrelevant. On subsequent rounds, as long as the charge is still being held, you may Spring Attack as the standard action you will be using is the Attack action.