Standing up from prone with no AoO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Standing up from prone with no AoO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Marcia_S
10-04-06, 11:18 AM We're having a bit of a discussion on the LGDMs yahoo group about ways to stand up from prone that will not provoke an AoO. Is there anyone here who is somewhat "official" who can answer that? Specifically, can you stand up as a full round action to avoid the AoO? Can you go from prone to kneeling as a move action that doesn't provoke? What about from kneeling to standing?

The rules only give one option for standing from prone which is a move action that provokes, but some people are saying that there's no reason you can't add rules to allow standing using more than one action to negate the AoO. In a home campaign, the DM could add whatever rules they liked to make the game more fun and interesting, but in LG, we're more limited in our creativity. Is this a "grey area" that we can make up our own rules for or is this adding a rule that contradicts the exists the rules?

We do NOT need to rehash the discussion from the LGDMs group. I would just like to know if there is someone from the Circle, WotC, or RPGA HQ that has handled this question before and if there is an "LG" answer.

Thanks,
Marcia
Howie23
10-04-06, 11:55 AM We're having a bit of a discussion on the LGDMs yahoo group about ways to stand up from prone that will not provoke an AoO. Is there anyone here who is somewhat "official" who can answer that? Specifically, can you stand up as a full round action to avoid the AoO? Can you go from prone to kneeling as a move action that doesn't provoke? What about from kneeling to standing?

We do NOT need to rehash the discussion from the LGDMs group. I would just like to know if there is someone from the Circle, WotC, or RPGA HQ that has handled this question before and if there is an "LG" answer.

Marcia, this is a DnD rules question, which LG administration defers to WotC customer service. That question might then reach the FAQ, which then makes it an "LG" answer.

These boards are the correct place to get "LG" answers that carry the force of rule, but the topic is one that is outside the scope of what campaign administration is willing to address.

David
Not an Official Voice
Marcia_S
10-04-06, 12:07 PM Well, the answer on the D&D board would most likely be "the DM can add that rule if they like", which is not appropriate for LG. That's why I didn't ask it there. I can move it to that board, but I already know what the answer will be.

Marcia
pedr
10-04-06, 12:18 PM You might try 'Ask Wizards'... I guess that has more chance of getting an answer from The Sage. Having said that, if his answer about Mettle from this month's Sage Advice in Dragon gets into the FAQ I'll be somewhat annoyed (as far as I'm concerned, conjured Orbs of Acid should always do hit point damage on a successful hit, mettle or no mettle.)
Howie23
10-04-06, 01:56 PM Well, the answer on the D&D board would most likely be "the DM can add that rule if they like", which is not appropriate for LG. That's why I didn't ask it there. I can move it to that board, but I already know what the answer will be.

Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't referringyou to the D&D board, I was referring you to WotC customer service. By which, I meant the Knowledge Base, not the general D&D board. Knowledge Base, which feeds the FAQ, is the LG defined method for getting an "LG" answer to D&D rules questions, per the LGCS p. 63. While the Knowledge Base answer doesn't carry the force of rule, the FAQ does.

David
solbergb
10-04-06, 02:23 PM Note that it is important to state the question precisely when dealing with Customer Service, or you don't get an answer that satisfies the folks you're trying to convince.

"Is there any way to stand up from prone without provoking an AOO" gets

"Yes"

or "Yes, with "kick-up" class ability from thief-acrobat (or maybe other examples, such as perfect flight)"

or "No barring a feat or class ability that says otherwise"

or even worse "No, unless you use a variant tumble rule which I will not state is the rule but will state is maybe the rule so everyone can argue about it even more"

Asked more in tune with the LGDM's discussion:

"The rules don't cover these actions. Please help clarify this for us:"

"What kind of action is it to go from prone to kneeling. Does it provoke?"
"What kind of action is it to go from kneeling to standing? Does it provoke?"
"What kind of action is it to go from standing to kneeling? Does it provoke?"

If an answer to that sequence makes it into the FAQ, it can't be misinterpreted. If the answer comes back "the rules don't say, so the DM decides" that puts us right where we are today (and LGCS empowers the judge to make those calls).
Marcia_S
10-05-06, 11:47 AM I'd actually be relatively happy with an "official" answer that says that the GM can decide. The way it is now, it seems to me that the rules are clear that there is ONLY ONE way to get out of a prone position (barring feats, change of form, or special movement).

Well, I've sent a query to customer services. Just have to wait and see if they ever respond.
Mommy was an Orc
10-05-06, 04:34 PM Asked more in tune with the LGDM's discussion:

"The rules don't cover these actions. Please help clarify this for us:"

"What kind of action is it to go from prone to kneeling. Does it provoke?"
"What kind of action is it to go from kneeling to standing? Does it provoke?"
"What kind of action is it to go from standing to kneeling? Does it provoke?"

If an answer to that sequence makes it into the FAQ, it can't be misinterpreted. If the answer comes back "the rules don't say, so the DM decides" that puts us right where we are today (and LGCS empowers the judge to make those calls).

I'd clarify by ading a 4th question:
If it going from prone to kneeling and then kneeling to standing are both move actions that don't provoke, can one take a full-move action to stand without provoking instead of a move action to stand with provoking?

That way, you don't end up with a new rule in the FAQ because they didn't think it all through, then correct it later.

Personally, I think the rules are quite clear that if someone manages to make you prone, the intent is that you should generally take an AoO if you stand up while they threaten you.
Gelth
10-05-06, 04:36 PM The official way to stand up from prone that I know of (and use) without provoking is to be using a tower shield, and take cover before standing. Sure, it only works from one direction, but that's usually all you need for the standing.
My fullplate and tower shield dwarf has used that maneuver... I think twice in 10 levels. They are also the only times he's ever taken cover behind his shield.

--Penn, Ket Triad
Japangirl
10-06-06, 03:18 PM The FAQ, which is an LG official rules source, says that you can make a DC 35 Tumble check to stand up from prone as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Thief-acrobat gives you that ability. Taking full cover behind a tower shield gives you that ability. Other than that, I know of no ways to avoid that AoO. Sadly, standing up slowly isn't an official way of not provoking an AoO for going from prone to standing.

-Not an official voice
Arvagor
10-06-06, 04:22 PM The FAQ, which is an LG official rules source, says that you can make a DC 35 Tumble check to stand up from prone as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.Incorrect; the "free stand" as described on page 44 of the 9/20/06 FAQ (referring to the check as described in the Epic Level Handbook and Complete Adventurer) still provokes AoOs. Only the Thief-Acrobat's "Kip-Up" feature and the Prone Attack feat are standalone features which allow one to regain their feet without provoking (Prone Attack requiring a successful attack against a foe).

I had never considered Gelth's method of claiming cover from a tower shield (probably because I've never had a PC who used a tower shield), but it seems sound and reasonable.
Japangirl
10-06-06, 04:40 PM You're right. I stopped at "free action", because free actions almost never provoke attacks of opportunity. Even swift spells don't generally provoke!
kjenks
10-06-06, 05:45 PM Cast Swift Fly. Take a 5 ft. step. Rotate 90 degrees while doing so (since Fly gives you good maneuverability). Now take a move action (but no more actual movement) and a standard action, as you see fit.

BTW, Extend Spell works great on Swift Fly.
solbergb
10-06-06, 06:00 PM Also with swift fly (or overland flight, or a fly spell running etc) you could do a withdraw option, just skimming along the ground till you chose to do the ninety degree shift.

Having good or better flight that doesn't depend on wings (because of the FAQ discussion of tripping folks with wings) is really handy when prone.
Iswald
10-06-06, 11:24 PM Only the Thief-Acrobat's "Kip-Up" feature and the Prone Attack feat are standalone features which allow one to regain their feet without provoking (Prone Attack requiring a successful attack against a foe).

Prone attack lets you stand as a free action, but it doesn't say that it doesn't provoke, although that might have been the intent. Going from sitting to standing doesn't provoke. Going from prone to sitting is debatable.
Arvagor
10-07-06, 01:15 AM Prone attack lets you stand as a free action, but it doesn't say that it doesn't provoke, although that might have been the intent.You are correct, good catch. I would agree that's the intent, but as it doesn't say either way, a DM is free to make whatever ruling he feels is appropriate.

Going from sitting to standing doesn't provoke.Sorry, still nothing in the rules that supports that position either way; such an action is undefined, which is the whole point of the LGDMs debate...
WCrawford
10-08-06, 10:58 PM Cast Swift Fly. Take a 5 ft. step. Rotate 90 degrees while doing so (since Fly gives you good maneuverability). Now take a move action (but no more actual movement) and a standard action, as you see fit.

BTW, Extend Spell works great on Swift Fly.

That would work *IF* you could take a 5 ft. step while prone. When prone you can only crawl, and crawling 5 ft is a move action that provokes an AoO. [PHB pg 142]
solbergb
10-09-06, 08:38 PM Prone has no meaning when flying without wings. See the FAQ..you can only trip a flier with a stall speed.

You can 90' shift as part of 5' of movement. So yeah, rotating 5' in your square is a 5' step...if you can fly with good or better maneuverabiltiy

or you can fly 5' in any direction (except up if you aren't "perfect" flight) and rotate as part of the move...as a 5' step.

There's a small amount of table variation on this, but most Judges seem to agree in play (at least in the regions I've played and online) that if you can't be tripped while flying, activating a flight that is that good while prone lets you get out of being prone without needing to "stand up", as long as you do sufficient movement to rotate 90 degrees.
Mommy was an Orc
10-09-06, 09:29 PM Actually, I was re-reading the FAQ on tripping and noticed this:Crawling isn’t “normal movement,” but tumbling is the
art of moving with acrobatic skill, and there’s no reason why a
prone tumbler couldn’t artfully roll away from a foe.

So you make a DC 15 Tumble Check as part of your move action to move out of the threatened area, then stand up as your other move action. Only problem is that you're at 1/4 speed, so hopefully you only need 5' or so, but pretty good for Monks.

Interesting...
solbergb
10-10-06, 03:42 PM DC25...you'd have to do an accellerated tumble given that you only have a 5' move with crawl. (1/4 speed? That's climbing or swimming) But since that faq entry, yeah, crawl-tumbles appear to be allowed.
Mommy was an Orc
10-10-06, 04:58 PM DC25...you'd have to do an accellerated tumble given that you only have a 5' move with crawl. (1/4 speed? That's climbing or swimming) But since that faq entry, yeah, crawl-tumbles appear to be allowed.

Ah. I was just assuming it was at half speed - I've yet to actually see crawling come up in 3.5 where it counted for anything.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marcia_S 10-04-06, 11:18 AM	We're having a bit of a discussion on the LGDMs yahoo group about ways to stand up from prone that will not provoke an AoO. Is there anyone here who is somewhat "official" who can answer that? Specifically, can you stand up as a full round action to avoid the AoO? Can you go from prone to kneeling as a move action that doesn't provoke? What about from kneeling to standing? The rules only give one option for standing from prone which is a move action that provokes, but some people are saying that there's no reason you can't add rules to allow standing using more than one action to negate the AoO. In a home campaign, the DM could add whatever rules they liked to make the game more fun and interesting, but in LG, we're more limited in our creativity. Is this a "grey area" that we can make up our own rules for or is this adding a rule that contradicts the exists the rules? We do NOT need to rehash the discussion from the LGDMs group. I would just like to know if there is someone from the Circle, WotC, or RPGA HQ that has handled this question before and if there is an "LG" answer. Thanks, Marcia
Howie23 10-04-06, 11:55 AM	We're having a bit of a discussion on the LGDMs yahoo group about ways to stand up from prone that will not provoke an AoO. Is there anyone here who is somewhat "official" who can answer that? Specifically, can you stand up as a full round action to avoid the AoO? Can you go from prone to kneeling as a move action that doesn't provoke? What about from kneeling to standing? We do NOT need to rehash the discussion from the LGDMs group. I would just like to know if there is someone from the Circle, WotC, or RPGA HQ that has handled this question before and if there is an "LG" answer. Marcia, this is a DnD rules question, which LG administration defers to WotC customer service. That question might then reach the FAQ, which then makes it an "LG" answer. These boards are the correct place to get "LG" answers that carry the force of rule, but the topic is one that is outside the scope of what campaign administration is willing to address. David Not an Official Voice
Marcia_S 10-04-06, 12:07 PM	Well, the answer on the D&D board would most likely be "the DM can add that rule if they like", which is not appropriate for LG. That's why I didn't ask it there. I can move it to that board, but I already know what the answer will be. Marcia
pedr 10-04-06, 12:18 PM	You might try 'Ask Wizards'... I guess that has more chance of getting an answer from The Sage. Having said that, if his answer about Mettle from this month's Sage Advice in Dragon gets into the FAQ I'll be somewhat annoyed (as far as I'm concerned, conjured Orbs of Acid should always do hit point damage on a successful hit, mettle or no mettle.)
Howie23 10-04-06, 01:56 PM	Well, the answer on the D&D board would most likely be "the DM can add that rule if they like", which is not appropriate for LG. That's why I didn't ask it there. I can move it to that board, but I already know what the answer will be. Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't referringyou to the D&D board, I was referring you to WotC customer service. By which, I meant the Knowledge Base, not the general D&D board. Knowledge Base, which feeds the FAQ, is the LG defined method for getting an "LG" answer to D&D rules questions, per the LGCS p. 63. While the Knowledge Base answer doesn't carry the force of rule, the FAQ does. David
solbergb 10-04-06, 02:23 PM	Note that it is important to state the question precisely when dealing with Customer Service, or you don't get an answer that satisfies the folks you're trying to convince. "Is there any way to stand up from prone without provoking an AOO" gets "Yes" or "Yes, with "kick-up" class ability from thief-acrobat (or maybe other examples, such as perfect flight)" or "No barring a feat or class ability that says otherwise" or even worse "No, unless you use a variant tumble rule which I will not state is the rule but will state is maybe the rule so everyone can argue about it even more" Asked more in tune with the LGDM's discussion: "The rules don't cover these actions. Please help clarify this for us:" "What kind of action is it to go from prone to kneeling. Does it provoke?" "What kind of action is it to go from kneeling to standing? Does it provoke?" "What kind of action is it to go from standing to kneeling? Does it provoke?" If an answer to that sequence makes it into the FAQ, it can't be misinterpreted. If the answer comes back "the rules don't say, so the DM decides" that puts us right where we are today (and LGCS empowers the judge to make those calls).
Marcia_S 10-05-06, 11:47 AM	I'd actually be relatively happy with an "official" answer that says that the GM can decide. The way it is now, it seems to me that the rules are clear that there is ONLY ONE way to get out of a prone position (barring feats, change of form, or special movement). Well, I've sent a query to customer services. Just have to wait and see if they ever respond.
Mommy was an Orc 10-05-06, 04:34 PM	Asked more in tune with the LGDM's discussion: "The rules don't cover these actions. Please help clarify this for us:" "What kind of action is it to go from prone to kneeling. Does it provoke?" "What kind of action is it to go from kneeling to standing? Does it provoke?" "What kind of action is it to go from standing to kneeling? Does it provoke?" If an answer to that sequence makes it into the FAQ, it can't be misinterpreted. If the answer comes back "the rules don't say, so the DM decides" that puts us right where we are today (and LGCS empowers the judge to make those calls). I'd clarify by ading a 4th question: If it going from prone to kneeling and then kneeling to standing are both move actions that don't provoke, can one take a full-move action to stand without provoking instead of a move action to stand with provoking? That way, you don't end up with a new rule in the FAQ because they didn't think it all through, then correct it later. Personally, I think the rules are quite clear that if someone manages to make you prone, the intent is that you should generally take an AoO if you stand up while they threaten you.
Gelth 10-05-06, 04:36 PM	The official way to stand up from prone that I know of (and use) without provoking is to be using a tower shield, and take cover before standing. Sure, it only works from one direction, but that's usually all you need for the standing. My fullplate and tower shield dwarf has used that maneuver... I think twice in 10 levels. They are also the only times he's ever taken cover behind his shield. --Penn, Ket Triad
Japangirl 10-06-06, 03:18 PM	The FAQ, which is an LG official rules source, says that you can make a DC 35 Tumble check to stand up from prone as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Thief-acrobat gives you that ability. Taking full cover behind a tower shield gives you that ability. Other than that, I know of no ways to avoid that AoO. Sadly, standing up slowly isn't an official way of not provoking an AoO for going from prone to standing. -Not an official voice
Arvagor 10-06-06, 04:22 PM	The FAQ, which is an LG official rules source, says that you can make a DC 35 Tumble check to stand up from prone as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.Incorrect; the "free stand" as described on page 44 of the 9/20/06 FAQ (referring to the check as described in the Epic Level Handbook and Complete Adventurer) still provokes AoOs. Only the Thief-Acrobat's "Kip-Up" feature and the Prone Attack feat are standalone features which allow one to regain their feet without provoking (Prone Attack requiring a successful attack against a foe). I had never considered Gelth's method of claiming cover from a tower shield (probably because I've never had a PC who used a tower shield), but it seems sound and reasonable.
Japangirl 10-06-06, 04:40 PM	You're right. I stopped at "free action", because free actions almost never provoke attacks of opportunity. Even swift spells don't generally provoke!
kjenks 10-06-06, 05:45 PM	Cast Swift Fly. Take a 5 ft. step. Rotate 90 degrees while doing so (since Fly gives you good maneuverability). Now take a move action (but no more actual movement) and a standard action, as you see fit. BTW, Extend Spell works great on Swift Fly.
solbergb 10-06-06, 06:00 PM	Also with swift fly (or overland flight, or a fly spell running etc) you could do a withdraw option, just skimming along the ground till you chose to do the ninety degree shift. Having good or better flight that doesn't depend on wings (because of the FAQ discussion of tripping folks with wings) is really handy when prone.
Iswald 10-06-06, 11:24 PM	Only the Thief-Acrobat's "Kip-Up" feature and the Prone Attack feat are standalone features which allow one to regain their feet without provoking (Prone Attack requiring a successful attack against a foe). Prone attack lets you stand as a free action, but it doesn't say that it doesn't provoke, although that might have been the intent. Going from sitting to standing doesn't provoke. Going from prone to sitting is debatable.
Arvagor 10-07-06, 01:15 AM	Prone attack lets you stand as a free action, but it doesn't say that it doesn't provoke, although that might have been the intent.You are correct, good catch. I would agree that's the intent, but as it doesn't say either way, a DM is free to make whatever ruling he feels is appropriate. Going from sitting to standing doesn't provoke.Sorry, still nothing in the rules that supports that position either way; such an action is undefined, which is the whole point of the LGDMs debate...
WCrawford 10-08-06, 10:58 PM	Cast Swift Fly. Take a 5 ft. step. Rotate 90 degrees while doing so (since Fly gives you good maneuverability). Now take a move action (but no more actual movement) and a standard action, as you see fit. BTW, Extend Spell works great on Swift Fly. That would work IF you could take a 5 ft. step while prone. When prone you can only crawl, and crawling 5 ft is a move action that provokes an AoO. [PHB pg 142]
solbergb 10-09-06, 08:38 PM	Prone has no meaning when flying without wings. See the FAQ..you can only trip a flier with a stall speed. You can 90' shift as part of 5' of movement. So yeah, rotating 5' in your square is a 5' step...if you can fly with good or better maneuverabiltiy or you can fly 5' in any direction (except up if you aren't "perfect" flight) and rotate as part of the move...as a 5' step. There's a small amount of table variation on this, but most Judges seem to agree in play (at least in the regions I've played and online) that if you can't be tripped while flying, activating a flight that is that good while prone lets you get out of being prone without needing to "stand up", as long as you do sufficient movement to rotate 90 degrees.
Mommy was an Orc 10-09-06, 09:29 PM	Actually, I was re-reading the FAQ on tripping and noticed this:Crawling isn’t “normal movement,” but tumbling is the art of moving with acrobatic skill, and there’s no reason why a prone tumbler couldn’t artfully roll away from a foe. So you make a DC 15 Tumble Check as part of your move action to move out of the threatened area, then stand up as your other move action. Only problem is that you're at 1/4 speed, so hopefully you only need 5' or so, but pretty good for Monks. Interesting...
solbergb 10-10-06, 03:42 PM	DC25...you'd have to do an accellerated tumble given that you only have a 5' move with crawl. (1/4 speed? That's climbing or swimming) But since that faq entry, yeah, crawl-tumbles appear to be allowed.
Mommy was an Orc 10-10-06, 04:58 PM	DC25...you'd have to do an accellerated tumble given that you only have a 5' move with crawl. (1/4 speed? That's climbing or swimming) But since that faq entry, yeah, crawl-tumbles appear to be allowed. Ah. I was just assuming it was at half speed - I've yet to actually see crawling come up in 3.5 where it counted for anything.