Stats under 8? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Stats under 8? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CTRMann
07-23-07, 11:20 PM Hello - I am sure this is answered elsewhere, but without a search feature on this forum its going to get asked again.

On page 169 of the DMG 3.5 it states, "All ability scores start at 8.....For ability scores of 14 or lower, you buy additional points on a 1-for-1 basis."

So my question is this, can you set your stats less then 8 and gain a 1-for-1 point to use on other stats?

In other worked can I take a 3 in Charisma and have 5 points to put elsewhere?

Please back up your answer with official RPGA/LG rules. Thanks!

Dennis
bitznarf
07-23-07, 11:27 PM No.
CTRMann
07-23-07, 11:41 PM No.

"Please back up your answer with official RPGA/LG rules. Thanks!"

Did you miss that part? Thanks.

Dennis
ShinAkuma2
07-23-07, 11:44 PM The only way to have a stat less than 8 is to spend no points in it and have a racial penalty, ie, the ever-so-common Half-Orc with zero points in Int and/or Cha.

You posted the relevant text yourself: All ability scores start at 8.

If they could go less than 8 on the buy, well, it would say so. Since they start at 8, and go up by spending points...
Ancillary
07-23-07, 11:44 PM The forum has a search feature,

and you can't reduce scores.
CTRMann
07-24-07, 12:11 AM If they could go less than 8 on the buy, well, it would say so.

You are correct, it does not say that you can. However, it does not say you can't either.
Jay_Ibero_911
07-24-07, 12:34 AM You are correct, it does not say that you can. However, it does not say you can't either.

It doesn't have to say you can't because it's not a fuzzy area needing specific clarification. Nowhere does it even remotely imply that you can, and it doesn't explicitly state you can, therefore you can't.
Samwise
07-24-07, 01:05 AM OK, how do you do it?
Is there a limit on how many scores you can lower?
Is it 1 point for every point you lower a score below 8, or is 2 points? Or maybe it you only get 1 point for every 2 points you lower an ability score.

If you can't show a definite rule, then there isn't any way you can do it.
DroidTrooper
07-24-07, 01:20 AM The point buy method of set stat points gives you a fixed number of options. In this method all of your stats start at 8, you can change those stats to a different number listed on chart by expending the point cost listed on the chart.

The reason you cannot set a base stat (before racial adjustments) below 8 is the same reason that you cannot use point buy method start with a stat score of 1,000. It is not listed on the chart, therefore there is no option to select it.

There are no RPGA/LG rules regarding this, because its a Core D&D rule set. Thus any official change would need to come in the form of an errata or the FAQ.
clannagh
07-24-07, 02:03 AM I am soooo gunna build a STR 4 kobold.
bitznarf
07-24-07, 02:17 AM "Please back up your answer with official RPGA/LG rules. Thanks!"

Did you miss that part? Thanks.

Dennis
There are no specific RPGA/LG rules for this! The LGCS simply states 'use a 28 point buy as described on page 169 of the DMG'. Thats it (or close enough to it). Your demand is like saying 'find me RPGA/LG rules that state that Weapon Focus only gives a +1 to attack rolls with a specific weapon.'

I recommend using some common sense. Did you miss that part? Thanks.
haferka
07-24-07, 02:34 AM The only way to get/keep your stats below the minimum is to get and NOT heal ability damage...
clannagh
07-24-07, 02:45 AM To be quite honest whilst it may be remotely feasible, though stretching it, to allow you to voluntarily drop your stats below 8, there is absolutely no mechanism to get any points back in return for dropping the stat.

In other words .. it's highly unlikely you could find a valid argument that will allow you drop stats below the starting value of 8 , but even if you did there would be no game benefit as you would not get any points added to your pool.
_metz_
07-24-07, 02:55 AM To be quite honest whilst it may be remotely feasible, though stretching it, to allow you to voluntarily drop your stats below 8, there is absolutely no mechanism to get any points back in return for dropping the stat.

In other words .. it's highly unlikely you could find a valid argument that will allow you drop stats below the starting value of 8 , but even if you did there would be no game benefit as you would not get any points added to your pool.

When you look at it, its VERY simple.

You start with 8 in every stat.

You have the option to increase them. Here is your points.

Apply Racial modifiers.

That is all.

As there is no aspect of the point buy pertaining to 'reducing' scores, only to adding to them, its something you cannot do. Its not in the system. Arguing that it is not included and therefore may be possible is incorrect.

It's so black and white I don't see the problem. Its like this:

You are to take:

Option A
Option B
Option C

And coming along and arguing you want to take option D, and the fact there isn't a sentence disallowing option D means you can. A stupid arguement really. Just read the relevant section, its pretty darn clear, and only if you are illiterate is there an excuse for it not to make sense. There is no need for a ruling. Read the campaign sourcebook, its right there.
solbergb
07-24-07, 02:38 PM The only way to get/keep your stats below the minimum is to get and NOT heal ability damage...

Or get cursed.

My wife's dwarf has 5 charisma and additional modifiers that give her a -5 to all social skill checks, when you figure it all in. She has impressively low diplomacy "assist" rolls.
Mocoso
07-24-07, 02:43 PM "Please back up your answer with official RPGA/LG rules. Thanks!"

Did you miss that part? Thanks.

Dennis

Wow. yu on medication for that sarcasmitis? lol

PS:

No, you can't. Don't be stupid and read the lgcs, thanks.
CdrcJsn
07-24-07, 04:49 PM You are correct, it does not say that you can. However, it does not say you can't either.

LOL!

The rules for hopscotch says that you throw a rock, then skip and hop to the square to pick up the rock. Repeating til you travelled up and down the squares.

It doesn't say you can win the game by throwing the rock at the other player and knock them out. However, it doesn't say you can't either.
Grantor
07-24-07, 06:25 PM I'd like to point out to the hostile posters that other game systems have point buy systems where you can buy up or down from a starting stat. It does not seem strange to me that new players might think that rules like that would apply.

Which makes sense, given that the original poster asked for a helpful pointer to the rules that explain how point-buy works in D&D.

It would have been more constructive to just tell the person that there is a table in the DMG that lists all of the possible scores you can buy.
bitznarf
07-24-07, 06:27 PM "Please back up your answer with official RPGA/LG rules. Thanks!"

Did you miss that part? Thanks.

Dennis
This is why I am hostile, not because someone doesn't understand the rules perfectly.
ShinAkuma2
07-24-07, 06:34 PM It would have been more constructive to just tell the person that there is a table in the DMG that lists all of the possible scores you can buy.

The thing is, by the content of his post, we know he looked at this table already and chose to ignore it.
lseelba
07-24-07, 07:55 PM I was going to reply with a hostile post after the OP's 2nd post, but I decided it wasn't worth my time. Even if he did create a character who's scores were below 8, before racial adjustments, no LG or RPGA judge would let him play with it.
_metz_
07-25-07, 12:16 AM I'd like to point out to the hostile posters that other game systems have point buy systems where you can buy up or down from a starting stat. It does not seem strange to me that new players might think that rules like that would apply.

Which makes sense, given that the original poster asked for a helpful pointer to the rules that explain how point-buy works in D&D.

It would have been more constructive to just tell the person that there is a table in the DMG that lists all of the possible scores you can buy.

But he did read the table. He just chose to ignore it because it didn't let him min max like he wanted to, and then got annoyed when we couldn't explain to him why he wasn't allowed to do something illegal.

Thats why there was a hostile response. If someone asks for the page, sure, they will get the answer (with perhaps some raised eyebrows at an inability to look through a book/document) but if someone FINDS a rule then chooses to ignore it, then that bugs me.

I think the hopscotch metaphor is very appropriate.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CTRMann 07-23-07, 11:20 PM	Hello - I am sure this is answered elsewhere, but without a search feature on this forum its going to get asked again. On page 169 of the DMG 3.5 it states, "All ability scores start at 8.....For ability scores of 14 or lower, you buy additional points on a 1-for-1 basis." So my question is this, can you set your stats less then 8 and gain a 1-for-1 point to use on other stats? In other worked can I take a 3 in Charisma and have 5 points to put elsewhere? Please back up your answer with official RPGA/LG rules. Thanks! Dennis
bitznarf 07-23-07, 11:27 PM	No.
CTRMann 07-23-07, 11:41 PM	No. "Please back up your answer with official RPGA/LG rules. Thanks!" Did you miss that part? Thanks. Dennis
ShinAkuma2 07-23-07, 11:44 PM	The only way to have a stat less than 8 is to spend no points in it and have a racial penalty, ie, the ever-so-common Half-Orc with zero points in Int and/or Cha. You posted the relevant text yourself: All ability scores start at 8. If they could go less than 8 on the buy, well, it would say so. Since they start at 8, and go up by spending points...
Ancillary 07-23-07, 11:44 PM	The forum has a search feature, and you can't reduce scores.
CTRMann 07-24-07, 12:11 AM	If they could go less than 8 on the buy, well, it would say so. You are correct, it does not say that you can. However, it does not say you can't either.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-24-07, 12:34 AM	You are correct, it does not say that you can. However, it does not say you can't either. It doesn't have to say you can't because it's not a fuzzy area needing specific clarification. Nowhere does it even remotely imply that you can, and it doesn't explicitly state you can, therefore you can't.
Samwise 07-24-07, 01:05 AM	OK, how do you do it? Is there a limit on how many scores you can lower? Is it 1 point for every point you lower a score below 8, or is 2 points? Or maybe it you only get 1 point for every 2 points you lower an ability score. If you can't show a definite rule, then there isn't any way you can do it.
DroidTrooper 07-24-07, 01:20 AM	The point buy method of set stat points gives you a fixed number of options. In this method all of your stats start at 8, you can change those stats to a different number listed on chart by expending the point cost listed on the chart. The reason you cannot set a base stat (before racial adjustments) below 8 is the same reason that you cannot use point buy method start with a stat score of 1,000. It is not listed on the chart, therefore there is no option to select it. There are no RPGA/LG rules regarding this, because its a Core D&D rule set. Thus any official change would need to come in the form of an errata or the FAQ.
clannagh 07-24-07, 02:03 AM	I am soooo gunna build a STR 4 kobold.
bitznarf 07-24-07, 02:17 AM	"Please back up your answer with official RPGA/LG rules. Thanks!" Did you miss that part? Thanks. Dennis There are no specific RPGA/LG rules for this! The LGCS simply states 'use a 28 point buy as described on page 169 of the DMG'. Thats it (or close enough to it). Your demand is like saying 'find me RPGA/LG rules that state that Weapon Focus only gives a +1 to attack rolls with a specific weapon.' I recommend using some common sense. Did you miss that part? Thanks.
haferka 07-24-07, 02:34 AM	The only way to get/keep your stats below the minimum is to get and NOT heal ability damage...
clannagh 07-24-07, 02:45 AM	To be quite honest whilst it may be remotely feasible, though stretching it, to allow you to voluntarily drop your stats below 8, there is absolutely no mechanism to get any points back in return for dropping the stat. In other words .. it's highly unlikely you could find a valid argument that will allow you drop stats below the starting value of 8 , but even if you did there would be no game benefit as you would not get any points added to your pool.
_metz_ 07-24-07, 02:55 AM	To be quite honest whilst it may be remotely feasible, though stretching it, to allow you to voluntarily drop your stats below 8, there is absolutely no mechanism to get any points back in return for dropping the stat. In other words .. it's highly unlikely you could find a valid argument that will allow you drop stats below the starting value of 8 , but even if you did there would be no game benefit as you would not get any points added to your pool. When you look at it, its VERY simple. You start with 8 in every stat. You have the option to increase them. Here is your points. Apply Racial modifiers. That is all. As there is no aspect of the point buy pertaining to 'reducing' scores, only to adding to them, its something you cannot do. Its not in the system. Arguing that it is not included and therefore may be possible is incorrect. It's so black and white I don't see the problem. Its like this: You are to take: Option A Option B Option C And coming along and arguing you want to take option D, and the fact there isn't a sentence disallowing option D means you can. A stupid arguement really. Just read the relevant section, its pretty darn clear, and only if you are illiterate is there an excuse for it not to make sense. There is no need for a ruling. Read the campaign sourcebook, its right there.
solbergb 07-24-07, 02:38 PM	The only way to get/keep your stats below the minimum is to get and NOT heal ability damage... Or get cursed. My wife's dwarf has 5 charisma and additional modifiers that give her a -5 to all social skill checks, when you figure it all in. She has impressively low diplomacy "assist" rolls.
Mocoso 07-24-07, 02:43 PM	"Please back up your answer with official RPGA/LG rules. Thanks!" Did you miss that part? Thanks. Dennis Wow. yu on medication for that sarcasmitis? lol PS: No, you can't. Don't be stupid and read the lgcs, thanks.
CdrcJsn 07-24-07, 04:49 PM	You are correct, it does not say that you can. However, it does not say you can't either. LOL! The rules for hopscotch says that you throw a rock, then skip and hop to the square to pick up the rock. Repeating til you travelled up and down the squares. It doesn't say you can win the game by throwing the rock at the other player and knock them out. However, it doesn't say you can't either.
Grantor 07-24-07, 06:25 PM	I'd like to point out to the hostile posters that other game systems have point buy systems where you can buy up or down from a starting stat. It does not seem strange to me that new players might think that rules like that would apply. Which makes sense, given that the original poster asked for a helpful pointer to the rules that explain how point-buy works in D&D. It would have been more constructive to just tell the person that there is a table in the DMG that lists all of the possible scores you can buy.
bitznarf 07-24-07, 06:27 PM	"Please back up your answer with official RPGA/LG rules. Thanks!" Did you miss that part? Thanks. Dennis This is why I am hostile, not because someone doesn't understand the rules perfectly.
ShinAkuma2 07-24-07, 06:34 PM	It would have been more constructive to just tell the person that there is a table in the DMG that lists all of the possible scores you can buy. The thing is, by the content of his post, we know he looked at this table already and chose to ignore it.
lseelba 07-24-07, 07:55 PM	I was going to reply with a hostile post after the OP's 2nd post, but I decided it wasn't worth my time. Even if he did create a character who's scores were below 8, before racial adjustments, no LG or RPGA judge would let him play with it.
_metz_ 07-25-07, 12:16 AM	I'd like to point out to the hostile posters that other game systems have point buy systems where you can buy up or down from a starting stat. It does not seem strange to me that new players might think that rules like that would apply. Which makes sense, given that the original poster asked for a helpful pointer to the rules that explain how point-buy works in D&D. It would have been more constructive to just tell the person that there is a table in the DMG that lists all of the possible scores you can buy. But he did read the table. He just chose to ignore it because it didn't let him min max like he wanted to, and then got annoyed when we couldn't explain to him why he wasn't allowed to do something illegal. Thats why there was a hostile response. If someone asks for the page, sure, they will get the answer (with perhaps some raised eyebrows at an inability to look through a book/document) but if someone FINDS a rule then chooses to ignore it, then that bugs me. I think the hopscotch metaphor is very appropriate.