Staying Viable with the PHB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Staying Viable with the PHB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MatteBlack
07-03-07, 10:09 AM The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)? It seems to me that unless you are a caster, you'll likely fall into that "subobtimal" category of character as the levels rise.

With this in mind should the adventures cater to a more basic level of character build or a more fully-tweaked one? It seems to me that if the case were such that you could not be a full contributor with a PHB character, it would denote a problem.
_metz_
07-03-07, 10:22 AM The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)? It seems to me that unless you are a caster, you'll likely fall into that "subobtimal" category of character as the levels rise.

With this in mind should the adventures cater to a more basic level of character build or a more fully-tweaked one? It seems to me that if the case were such that you could not be a full contributor with a PHB character, it would denote a problem.

Well, yes, but only because the bad guys aren't limited in the same way...
Lupo
07-03-07, 10:25 AM The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)? It seems to me that unless you are a caster, you'll likely fall into that "subobtimal" category of character as the levels rise.

With this in mind should the adventures cater to a more basic level of character build or a more fully-tweaked one? It seems to me that if the case were such that you could not be a full contributor with a PHB character, it would denote a problem.

an archer with a combo of ranger and fighter levels can be build with only PHB features and function quite well.

a frontliner barbarian/fighter can also be quite effective.

straight rogue has not much more problems than any roguiesh splatbook build.

monk/fighter builds are also quite viable.

straight druid summoner is PHB only.

nothing is wrong with a straight cleric either. even the PHB domains offer ways to build a frontliner, a magic damage dealer and a support/buffer.

i agree that the splatbook offer nice additions to all these builds but they are not as mandatory as some might think.

there are some builds of my characters that ONLY work with splatbook features:

my frontliner master thrower needs special feats/features for basically every level.

my dual wand wielding arcane trickster is only possible with splatbook features.

ciao

martin m.
Mommy was an Orc
07-03-07, 10:51 AM I don't think there's a huge issue(especially as Monster Manual is core for Monks)

The problem is for certain specific classes.
Rogues - Grave/Golem Strike, Unseen Seer. In the wrong regions, I don't think they recover from this.

Caster Bards - can't use Pearls, Lyric Spell, Inspirational Boost, Sublime Chord or Memento Magic. Not the end of the world, but losing Inspirational Boost hurts badly.

Rangers - Rangers have a lot of very useful spells in Spell Compendium.

Barbarian 1 isn't the uberdip it used to be, but Barbarian 4 isn't that bad of a replacement.

Paladins can focus on being chargers.

Summoners are missing a couple vital feats(Rapid Spell, Metamagic School Focus), but they still work.
solbergb
07-03-07, 10:53 AM The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)? It seems to me that unless you are a caster, you'll likely fall into that "subobtimal" category of character as the levels rise.

Much, much better than people think. All of my playtest characters fit that description and they do just fine in LG even with randomly mustered parties.

See...the top tier power spells and feats are mostly in the PHB and DMG. Some examples are:

fighter type: power attack, precise shot, spirited charge, rapid shot, improved precise shot, fullplate, 2h sword, lance, strength bow, cold iron, silver, adamantine, holy, bless weapon oil, magic weapon oil. There are a lot of good second tier feats and abilities too (quickdraw, normal and greater, weapon focus/spec, favored enemy, blindfight, twf tree, etc)

Rogue type: full rogues get lots of skills and lots of sneak attack, and have few enough feats that the fighter-type feats are sufficient. They get UMD and plenty of good scrolls to use it on for the non-crittable enemies.

Cleric: divine power, righeous might, divine favor, heal, hero feast, silence, holy word, circle of prot evil, free movement - the vast majority of the really good cleric spells are core. Prayer is a decent substitute for recitation. You need a bard to do what righteous wrath of the faithful does and you don't have delay death, but most adventures don't actually need either.

Druid: natural spell, augment summoning, summon nature ally, fire seeds, animal growth, free movement, dire bat, dire lion, rhino (wildshape or companion) - the best stuff is all in the core books. You really can do without arc lightning and murderous mist.

arcane: empower spell, fireball, evards, wall of force, contingency, solid fog, teleport, dim door, forcecage, limited wish, false life, reverse gravity, overland flight, magic missile, scorching ray, phantom steed, dispel magic, disintegrate, finger of death, flesh to stone, glitterdust, shadow magic, web, knock, detect thoughts, arcane sight, discern location, mage armor, mount, all summon monster spells - the "good stuff" is mostly core. The main thing lacking is direct damage SR=no stuff (barring Telekenesis tricks, another good spell that I've demonstrated substitutes for the orb spells pretty well in play). For wizards, loremaster is a pretty good PRC too.

Craft wonderous, resistance cloak and all attribute boosters are also core. Vest of resistance is needed for charisma casters or turning clerics.

Most of the noncore stuff gives variety rather than power. What power it does give is incremental, not revolutionary. The stuff I miss most with the playtest party is useful spells for rangers and a clean SR=no direct damage option for blaster arcanists. The parties do ok without them though.
MatteBlack
07-03-07, 12:12 PM Many of the good solid choices are from the PHB. I have an extremely effective 6th level spiked chain fighter/barbarian that will at least go one more level to specialize before looking to the splatbooks. Perhaps I am just biased by the typical high-level fighter and rogue fall-off and the raft of feats, spells and prestige classes I see used and over used in so many builds.
Sieylianna
07-03-07, 05:59 PM I think you can get by perfectly well with the PHB. Casters benefit from the Spell Compendium, but there are few prestige classes/feats that are head and shoulders above what you can do with the PHB (and IMO, the RSoP is one of them).

Ed
bitznarf
07-03-07, 06:29 PM In my opinion it is actually harder to make an effective melee combatant than it is a caster when limiting oneself to the PHB. Note I said *harder* not impossible.
Some_call_me_Tim
07-03-07, 07:11 PM The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)?All three of my main character are 98% PHB/DMG only. My main character is a 15th level fighter/dwarven defender, I think the only non-standard feat is improved toughness. I would take my dwarf over most of the splatbook mutts masquerading as tanks. My 9th level cleric only uses a couple of non-PHB spells (close wounds, resurgence) and only because the table usually demands it. My wizard is straight PHB baby! BTW, I do own almost all the splatbooks.

I also think if you go this route you should play your niche and not try to be a mutt as you won't be able to keep up if you do.

With this in mind should the adventures cater to a more basic level of character build or a more fully-tweaked one?Module writers should never assume that you will be playing with six power-gamers at your table. I've seen some modules that appeared to be written that way but it should never be the assumption.

IMHO, modules should be written so as to be survivable with four iconic PHB characters. They should be seriously challenged but with luck and good tactics should prevail. That doesn't mean they should always win with such a table but it should be written in such a way that they can play and have a reasonable chance of succeeding.
Hariman
07-03-07, 07:30 PM Very good, provided you choose one class and stick with it.

ALL of the PHB classes are good in their own way. Rogues are skillmonkeys. Fighters and Barbarians are Melee and sometimes ranged masters. PHB Druids are great, even without splatbooks. Clerics can still heal and melee and do spell damage.

Just choose a single class and play to it's strengths. Even a fighter will be strong if you choose your feats well and know what he can and can't do.

I advise against going for any multiclass or prestige class builds unless you have a plan on how to stay effective at all levels. Pure characters with PHB classes are often stronger than complex splatbook characters.
clannagh
07-03-07, 08:00 PM Assuming you allow special missions to get the DMG Paladin mounts a straight level 15 paladin would actually be quite effective as well. People tend to forget the "hidden" bumbs to smite and lay on hands of a high level paladin.
DarkKnight
07-04-07, 02:51 AM For the longest time my 14th level character only had PHB and DMG stuff. He's an archer and other than 3 items and 2 spells he's all core book stuff. His 3 items are a Vest of Resistance and a multiple stat item belt and some boots and his spells are Nerveskitter and Arrow Mind.

While he's not the "most" effective build for an archer, he hits often and is able take a hit or 5 before going down so he does his job.
draxynnic
07-08-07, 09:01 AM I have a level 10 fighter who only has 2 feats not in the PHB: Improved Toughness and Spinning Halberd. The latter is more for flavour than power (not that it isn't useful, although nowadays it tends to be more useful for the +1AC than the token extra attack) while the latter was in response to an observation that he needed more hit points. (Elf fighters are like that, especially playing up. Got the feat and a Con amulet within a couple of games of each other. That particular problem seemed to go away after that...)

He can't keep up with the greater-rage barbarians, but on the other hand he does have some tricks up his sleeve that they don't.

That said, most of my other characters either have or will have heavy use of non-PHB feats, but I generally make characters by fitting a concept rather than trying to cheese them out as much as possible.
DroidTrooper
07-08-07, 03:42 PM The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)? It seems to me that unless you are a caster, you'll likely fall into that "subobtimal" category of character as the levels rise.

With this in mind should the adventures cater to a more basic level of character build or a more fully-tweaked one? It seems to me that if the case were such that you could not be a full contributor with a PHB character, it would denote a problem.

Well I think the key here really depends on how you define key contributor. I cleric, fighter, rogue, or wizard built strickly from the PHB can without a doubt fill those roles. Its been said on these boards you have to try pretty heard to build a character that becomes sub 'iconic' (Jozan, Mialee, Tordek, etc.) Most modules should be tested (and completable) with iconic level characters.

As so far as suboptimal. Yeah you really do fall off of the optimal bandwagon. I think casters suffer more than non-casters in truth. There are a number of potent (open access) spells from the spell compendium that see regular and reoccuring use. Whereas several of the warrior oriented feat trees (ranged Combat, mounted combat, power attack) all are in the base book. Its only in the upper levels when you start seeing the newer feats see much use (and then most of the characters base tactics are already set by early choices.)
DarkKnight
07-08-07, 07:58 PM Yeah, I have a 6th level wizard who's taking A LOT of stuff from the non-core books (Complete Arcane and Spell Compendium mostly). But at lower levels the utility of the PHB spells are really hard to surpass.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MatteBlack 07-03-07, 10:09 AM	The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)? It seems to me that unless you are a caster, you'll likely fall into that "subobtimal" category of character as the levels rise. With this in mind should the adventures cater to a more basic level of character build or a more fully-tweaked one? It seems to me that if the case were such that you could not be a full contributor with a PHB character, it would denote a problem.
_metz_ 07-03-07, 10:22 AM	The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)? It seems to me that unless you are a caster, you'll likely fall into that "subobtimal" category of character as the levels rise. With this in mind should the adventures cater to a more basic level of character build or a more fully-tweaked one? It seems to me that if the case were such that you could not be a full contributor with a PHB character, it would denote a problem. Well, yes, but only because the bad guys aren't limited in the same way...
Lupo 07-03-07, 10:25 AM	The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)? It seems to me that unless you are a caster, you'll likely fall into that "subobtimal" category of character as the levels rise. With this in mind should the adventures cater to a more basic level of character build or a more fully-tweaked one? It seems to me that if the case were such that you could not be a full contributor with a PHB character, it would denote a problem. an archer with a combo of ranger and fighter levels can be build with only PHB features and function quite well. a frontliner barbarian/fighter can also be quite effective. straight rogue has not much more problems than any roguiesh splatbook build. monk/fighter builds are also quite viable. straight druid summoner is PHB only. nothing is wrong with a straight cleric either. even the PHB domains offer ways to build a frontliner, a magic damage dealer and a support/buffer. i agree that the splatbook offer nice additions to all these builds but they are not as mandatory as some might think. there are some builds of my characters that ONLY work with splatbook features: my frontliner master thrower needs special feats/features for basically every level. my dual wand wielding arcane trickster is only possible with splatbook features. ciao martin m.
Mommy was an Orc 07-03-07, 10:51 AM	I don't think there's a huge issue(especially as Monster Manual is core for Monks) The problem is for certain specific classes. Rogues - Grave/Golem Strike, Unseen Seer. In the wrong regions, I don't think they recover from this. Caster Bards - can't use Pearls, Lyric Spell, Inspirational Boost, Sublime Chord or Memento Magic. Not the end of the world, but losing Inspirational Boost hurts badly. Rangers - Rangers have a lot of very useful spells in Spell Compendium. Barbarian 1 isn't the uberdip it used to be, but Barbarian 4 isn't that bad of a replacement. Paladins can focus on being chargers. Summoners are missing a couple vital feats(Rapid Spell, Metamagic School Focus), but they still work.
solbergb 07-03-07, 10:53 AM	The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)? It seems to me that unless you are a caster, you'll likely fall into that "subobtimal" category of character as the levels rise. Much, much better than people think. All of my playtest characters fit that description and they do just fine in LG even with randomly mustered parties. See...the top tier power spells and feats are mostly in the PHB and DMG. Some examples are: fighter type: power attack, precise shot, spirited charge, rapid shot, improved precise shot, fullplate, 2h sword, lance, strength bow, cold iron, silver, adamantine, holy, bless weapon oil, magic weapon oil. There are a lot of good second tier feats and abilities too (quickdraw, normal and greater, weapon focus/spec, favored enemy, blindfight, twf tree, etc) Rogue type: full rogues get lots of skills and lots of sneak attack, and have few enough feats that the fighter-type feats are sufficient. They get UMD and plenty of good scrolls to use it on for the non-crittable enemies. Cleric: divine power, righeous might, divine favor, heal, hero feast, silence, holy word, circle of prot evil, free movement - the vast majority of the really good cleric spells are core. Prayer is a decent substitute for recitation. You need a bard to do what righteous wrath of the faithful does and you don't have delay death, but most adventures don't actually need either. Druid: natural spell, augment summoning, summon nature ally, fire seeds, animal growth, free movement, dire bat, dire lion, rhino (wildshape or companion) - the best stuff is all in the core books. You really can do without arc lightning and murderous mist. arcane: empower spell, fireball, evards, wall of force, contingency, solid fog, teleport, dim door, forcecage, limited wish, false life, reverse gravity, overland flight, magic missile, scorching ray, phantom steed, dispel magic, disintegrate, finger of death, flesh to stone, glitterdust, shadow magic, web, knock, detect thoughts, arcane sight, discern location, mage armor, mount, all summon monster spells - the "good stuff" is mostly core. The main thing lacking is direct damage SR=no stuff (barring Telekenesis tricks, another good spell that I've demonstrated substitutes for the orb spells pretty well in play). For wizards, loremaster is a pretty good PRC too. Craft wonderous, resistance cloak and all attribute boosters are also core. Vest of resistance is needed for charisma casters or turning clerics. Most of the noncore stuff gives variety rather than power. What power it does give is incremental, not revolutionary. The stuff I miss most with the playtest party is useful spells for rangers and a clean SR=no direct damage option for blaster arcanists. The parties do ok without them though.
MatteBlack 07-03-07, 12:12 PM	Many of the good solid choices are from the PHB. I have an extremely effective 6th level spiked chain fighter/barbarian that will at least go one more level to specialize before looking to the splatbooks. Perhaps I am just biased by the typical high-level fighter and rogue fall-off and the raft of feats, spells and prestige classes I see used and over used in so many builds.
Sieylianna 07-03-07, 05:59 PM	I think you can get by perfectly well with the PHB. Casters benefit from the Spell Compendium, but there are few prestige classes/feats that are head and shoulders above what you can do with the PHB (and IMO, the RSoP is one of them). Ed
bitznarf 07-03-07, 06:29 PM	In my opinion it is actually harder to make an effective melee combatant than it is a caster when limiting oneself to the PHB. Note I said harder not impossible.
Some_call_me_Tim 07-03-07, 07:11 PM	The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)?All three of my main character are 98% PHB/DMG only. My main character is a 15th level fighter/dwarven defender, I think the only non-standard feat is improved toughness. I would take my dwarf over most of the splatbook mutts masquerading as tanks. My 9th level cleric only uses a couple of non-PHB spells (close wounds, resurgence) and only because the table usually demands it. My wizard is straight PHB baby! BTW, I do own almost all the splatbooks. I also think if you go this route you should play your niche and not try to be a mutt as you won't be able to keep up if you do. With this in mind should the adventures cater to a more basic level of character build or a more fully-tweaked one?Module writers should never assume that you will be playing with six power-gamers at your table. I've seen some modules that appeared to be written that way but it should never be the assumption. IMHO, modules should be written so as to be survivable with four iconic PHB characters. They should be seriously challenged but with luck and good tactics should prevail. That doesn't mean they should always win with such a table but it should be written in such a way that they can play and have a reasonable chance of succeeding.
Hariman 07-03-07, 07:30 PM	Very good, provided you choose one class and stick with it. ALL of the PHB classes are good in their own way. Rogues are skillmonkeys. Fighters and Barbarians are Melee and sometimes ranged masters. PHB Druids are great, even without splatbooks. Clerics can still heal and melee and do spell damage. Just choose a single class and play to it's strengths. Even a fighter will be strong if you choose your feats well and know what he can and can't do. I advise against going for any multiclass or prestige class builds unless you have a plan on how to stay effective at all levels. Pure characters with PHB classes are often stronger than complex splatbook characters.
clannagh 07-03-07, 08:00 PM	Assuming you allow special missions to get the DMG Paladin mounts a straight level 15 paladin would actually be quite effective as well. People tend to forget the "hidden" bumbs to smite and lay on hands of a high level paladin.
DarkKnight 07-04-07, 02:51 AM	For the longest time my 14th level character only had PHB and DMG stuff. He's an archer and other than 3 items and 2 spells he's all core book stuff. His 3 items are a Vest of Resistance and a multiple stat item belt and some boots and his spells are Nerveskitter and Arrow Mind. While he's not the "most" effective build for an archer, he hits often and is able take a hit or 5 before going down so he does his job.
draxynnic 07-08-07, 09:01 AM	I have a level 10 fighter who only has 2 feats not in the PHB: Improved Toughness and Spinning Halberd. The latter is more for flavour than power (not that it isn't useful, although nowadays it tends to be more useful for the +1AC than the token extra attack) while the latter was in response to an observation that he needed more hit points. (Elf fighters are like that, especially playing up. Got the feat and a Con amulet within a couple of games of each other. That particular problem seemed to go away after that...) He can't keep up with the greater-rage barbarians, but on the other hand he does have some tricks up his sleeve that they don't. That said, most of my other characters either have or will have heavy use of non-PHB feats, but I generally make characters by fitting a concept rather than trying to cheese them out as much as possible.
DroidTrooper 07-08-07, 03:42 PM	The thread on skill inflation got me thinking. How viable can you stay using only the PHB (and DMG for items)? It seems to me that unless you are a caster, you'll likely fall into that "subobtimal" category of character as the levels rise. With this in mind should the adventures cater to a more basic level of character build or a more fully-tweaked one? It seems to me that if the case were such that you could not be a full contributor with a PHB character, it would denote a problem. Well I think the key here really depends on how you define key contributor. I cleric, fighter, rogue, or wizard built strickly from the PHB can without a doubt fill those roles. Its been said on these boards you have to try pretty heard to build a character that becomes sub 'iconic' (Jozan, Mialee, Tordek, etc.) Most modules should be tested (and completable) with iconic level characters. As so far as suboptimal. Yeah you really do fall off of the optimal bandwagon. I think casters suffer more than non-casters in truth. There are a number of potent (open access) spells from the spell compendium that see regular and reoccuring use. Whereas several of the warrior oriented feat trees (ranged Combat, mounted combat, power attack) all are in the base book. Its only in the upper levels when you start seeing the newer feats see much use (and then most of the characters base tactics are already set by early choices.)
DarkKnight 07-08-07, 07:58 PM	Yeah, I have a 6th level wizard who's taking A LOT of stuff from the non-core books (Complete Arcane and Spell Compendium mostly). But at lower levels the utility of the PHB spells are really hard to surpass.