Stun Oddity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Stun Oddity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Howie23
03-01-07, 03:00 PM The example of effect duration on PHB p. 138 uses a 1 round stunning fist as an example. The duration of the stun is until just prior to the beginning of the stunning monk's initiative count. At which point the stunned character can act.

I think that last sentence is different than usually played. I think usually, the approach is that a stunned character loses his turn, but retains his init position. Rather, as written, he effectively delays until the stun wears off, and then can act at that point.

David
Jay_Ibero_911
03-01-07, 03:04 PM The example of effect duration on PHB p. 138 uses a 1 round stunning fist as an example. The duration of the stun is until just prior to the beginning of the stunning monk's initiative count. At which point the stunned character can act.

I think that last sentence is different than usually played. I think usually, the approach is that a stunned character loses his turn, but retains his init position. Rather, as written, he effectively delays until the stun wears off, and then can act at that point.

David

There's nothing wrong with the way it is written. At that point he CAN act. It says nothing about him GETTING to act. CAN=physically able to act=no longer stunned.
ShinAkuma2
03-01-07, 03:15 PM I believe by "can act" they mean "behaves normally" (ie he no longer has penalties to AC, etc), rather than "receives actions".
Howie23
03-01-07, 03:16 PM There's nothing wrong with the way it is written. At that point he CAN act. It says nothing about him GETTING to act. CAN=physically able to act=no longer stunned.

Yep. So he effectively has been in delay since his prior init, and now has the option of coming out of delay.

1. Monk stuns...takes other actions
2. Other characters take their turns (if any)
3. Stunned character (who cannot take actions) delays (which is a non-action)
4. Other characters take their turns (if any)
5. Stun effect ends prior to monk's init
6. Stunned character can opt to come out of delayand take his turn (and probably should in most cases)
7. Monk now gets his next turn

David
Howie23
03-01-07, 03:25 PM I believe by "can act" they mean "behaves normally" (ie he no longer has penalties to AC, etc), rather than "receives actions".

Right. So, can opt to come out of delay (implied or stated), or stay in delay until his turn comes around again. While the end of stun doesn't grant actions, coming out of delay in order to take his turn does.

David
ShinAkuma2
03-01-07, 03:55 PM The problem with that is that there's nowhere to insert yourself for the delay.

If the Monk's initiative is 15, and you set yourself to 15 or more, then you are still Stunned because the Monk's next action hasn't come up yet.

If you set yourself to 14 or less, well, you've really accomplished nothing in relation to the Monk. You might go before other people with init 14 or less, but that's not really the issue here.
Zanzibax
03-01-07, 04:06 PM The problem with that is that there's nowhere to insert yourself for the delay.

If the Monk's initiative is 15, and you set yourself to 15 or more, then you are still Stunned because the Monk's next action hasn't come up yet.

If you set yourself to 14 or less, well, you've really accomplished nothing in relation to the Monk. You might go before other people with init 14 or less, but that's not really the issue here.

It would work like a readied action.

"just before the monk's initiative" or "just before the action readied against."
Jay_Ibero_911
03-01-07, 04:32 PM It would work like a readied action.

"just before the monk's initiative" or "just before the action readied against."

Except readying an action IS an action, and you can't take actions while stunned. And you are stunned until the beginning of the monks turn, so if stunned, there is no way to take actions until after the monk's turn. Delaying is not an action, and therefore a stunned character could delay and then be able to take actions immediately after the monk goes, but can't do anything to take an action until the monk starts his turn. Interestingly enough, by RAW, a stunned character COULD take a 5ft step, because it's technically not an action.....
Howie23
03-01-07, 04:51 PM Except readying an action IS an action, and you can't take actions while stunned. And you are stunned until the beginning of the monks turn, so if stunned, there is no way to take actions until after the monk's turn. Delaying is not an action, and therefore a stunned character could delay and then be able to take actions immediately after the monk goes, but can't do anything to take an action until the monk starts his turn.

He didn't say to do it as a readied action, he said it could be adjudicated like (similar to) a readied action. The description of delay explicitly to allows you to come back into initiative like this; your timing determines your initiative count.

Technically, the effect ends at the end of the initiative count prior to the monk's. The stunned character then comes out of delay in the same init count as the monk, but prior to the monk.

David
Jay_Ibero_911
03-01-07, 05:12 PM He didn't say to do it as a readied action, he said it could be adjudicated like (similar to) a readied action. The description of delay explicitly to allows you to come back into initiative like this; your timing determines your initiative count.

Technically, the effect ends at the end of the initiative count prior to the monk's. The stunned character then comes out of delay in the same init count as the monk, but prior to the monk.

David

That's the fuzzy area, PRECISELY when the stun wears off. The way delay works is clear, you simply change your point in the initiative order. In this case, we'll designate 3 relevant points, your original initiative, going immediately before the monk, and immediately afterward. The stun effect ends at the end of the initiative count prior to the monk. If you delay to immediately prior to the monk, then you are still stunned until the end of your initiative count, because your initiative count is now the initiative right before the monk, and therefore you can take no actions.
Howie23
03-01-07, 05:21 PM That's the fuzzy area, PRECISELY when the stun wears off.

PHB p.138...says it right there. What's fuzzy?

The way delay works is clear, you simply change your point in the initiative order. In this case, we'll designate 3 relevant points, your original initiative, going immediately before the monk, and immediately afterward. The stun effect ends at the end of the initiative count prior to the monk. If you delay to immediately prior to the monk, then you are still stunned until the end of your initiative count, because your initiative count is now the initiative right before the monk, and therefore you can take no actions.

You don't have to specify the count prior in order to go before him. You can go in the same count as the monk, but before him (similar to having had a higher init modifier on a tied init roll). That's the point.

David
Jay_Ibero_911
03-01-07, 05:48 PM PHB p.138...says it right there. What's fuzzy?

You don't have to specify the count prior in order to go before him. You can go in the same count as the monk, but before him (similar to having had a higher init modifier on a tied init roll). That's the point.

David

You CAN'T go on the SAME count. The same as if multiple characters roll the same initiative number, for example, if 2 characters get a 20 on initiative, the character with the higher modifier goes first, so one becomes 20+, the other 20-, or however you like. If you are stunned, you remain stunned until the end of the turn of whoever goes immediately before the monk. What would you do if (defying probability) all characters rolled the same initiative? By your argument it would be impossible for a monk to stun anyone because they would immediately be unstunned after the monk finishes his action.

Here's some examples of initiative order:
Monk=M
Stunned guy=S
Everyone else=#'s

1) ##M##S

On monk's turn, he successfuly stuns S. It comes to S's turn, he's stunned, and can't take any actions. He can delay however.

2) ##SM##

S has delayed to immediately before the monk. S is still stunned, and remains stunned until the end of his action because stunning lasts until the end of the turn before the monk.

3)##MS##

S, realizing he wouldn't get to take any action until after the monk goes anyway, decides to delay until immediately after the monk, hoping not to get stunned again. He gets lucky and isn't stunned, and therefore can take his actions as normal, and his point in initiative will remain immediately after the monk until otherwise changed.

What you don't seem to understand is that there is no such thing as simultaneous initiative, despite the possibility of having the same initiative number. That's why in that case it goes by modifier, and then to roll off. The stunned character does not have the option of coming off delay ON the monks turn. His turn either comes before the monk, or after the monk, and his status is then determined as appropriate to the time of his action.
jstorrie
03-01-07, 07:16 PM You CAN go on the same count. The character with the highest initiative modifier goes first if two characters share the same count, and if their modifiers are equal, you roll off. It's the same as if you'd rolled the same initiatives at start of combat.
Howie23
03-01-07, 07:57 PM You CAN'T go on the SAME count. The same as if multiple characters roll the same initiative number, for example, if 2 characters get a 20 on initiative, the character with the higher modifier goes first, so one becomes 20+, the other 20-, or however you like.

If they both roll a 20, they are both on 20 count, with the higher init mod going first. They are on the same count, but they are not simultaneous.

If you are stunned, you remain stunned until the end of the turn of whoever goes immediately before the monk.

It doesn't say that. It says until the end of the init count prior, where init count is determined by the initiative check (a number), not the sequence (who goes immediately prior).

What would you do if (defying probability) all characters rolled the same initiative? By your argument it would be impossible for a monk to stun anyone because they would immediately be unstunned after the monk finishes his action.

That doesn't follow. The stunned target would be stunned until coming out of delay (at the end of the count prior to all of their init). During that time, the stunned target would drop all items, would be at -2 AC for all attacks during that time, and could not take actions. He would shift in sequence from either after the monk to before the monk, or would effectively stay in the same place in order.

It does have the effect of sequential stuns not taking a target completely out of the battle. Each round, he would shake his head, look at his empty hands, and then attempt to do something before getting stunned again.

Here's some examples of initiative order:
Monk=M
Stunned guy=S
Everyone else=#'s

Let's see how it works when using the rules as written:

Bad Monk=M
Stunned Good guy=S
Fighter Good guy = F
Cleric Good guy = C

Monk rolls 17, Stunned guy rolls 5, Fighter rolls 19, Cleric rolls 2. The numbers below are init count.

Init Sequence (with count) is: 19F 18 17M 16...6 5S 4 3 2C

Round 1: Fighter does something. Monk moves up and flurries. He stuns Stunned guy, who drops everything and is -2AC while the other attacks are inbound. Stunned guy delays. Cleric casts a 3 round duration spell, call it Q.

Round 2 Init looks like this: 19F 18(end of stun) 17SM 16..4 3Q 2C. [note that S is shown where he is planning to come out of delay for simplicity]

S and M now will be on the same count. They are not simultaneous. S will go before M.

What you don't seem to understand is that there is no such thing as simultaneous initiative, despite the possibility of having the same initiative number.

Rather, that is what you think I understand, despite the fact that I do, and have presented this discussion ENTIRELY within that context.

It looks to me that you are treating initiative count and initiative order as the same thing. They aren't the same, although we usually treat them as such for simplicity.

It is possible to have three bad guys, [A,B,C], and three good guys [X,Y,Z], all in the same initiative count, and yet have a defined initiative order. Effects last until a point in time, based upon the init count, not to the actions of an individual, which is based largely upon initiative order.

That distinction, and managing effects within it, is the point of this thread.

That's why in that case it goes by modifier, and then to roll off. The stunned character does not have the option of coming off delay ON the monks turn. His turn either comes before the monk, or after the monk, and his status is then determined as appropriate to the time of his action.

Precisely, but not the way you have presented it. He cannot come out on the monk's turn, but he can come out on the monk's count (which is now shared, is not simultaneous, and is sequential).

David
JJeff
03-01-07, 08:04 PM I have always played that the stunned guy would retain his initative order and that the "CAN act" refers to the ability to AoO and react to events around him (as opposed to not being able to while stunned).

I always thought that delaying and readying is a counscious effort and cannot be taken while stunned (since you aren't THAT aware of your surroundings to time your actions) and that once the stun wears off, despite you being aware from that point on, you cannot suddenly perform an non-reactive action until you assess the current situation, thus returning to your previous initiative.

I think that RAW, only readying, delaying and actually leaving and re-entering combat will adjust your initiative. If you see being stunned and returning out of stun as leaving and re-entering combat, then good. I just don't see it as such.
Howie23
03-01-07, 08:06 PM I have always played that the stunned guy would retain his initative order and that the "CAN act" refers to the ability to AoO and react to events around him (as opposed to not being able to while stunned).

I always thought that delaying and readying is a counscious effort and cannot be taken while stunned (since you aren't THAT aware of your surroundings to time your actions) and that once the stun wears off, despite you being aware from that point on, you cannot suddenly perform an non-reactive action until you assess the current situation, thus returning to your previous initiative.

So have I. Largely because I haven't recognized that there is an alternative to how to view what is written. That is what I'm exploring here.

David
Jay_Ibero_911
03-01-07, 08:11 PM You CAN go on the same count. The character with the highest initiative modifier goes first if two characters share the same count, and if their modifiers are equal, you roll off. It's the same as if you'd rolled the same initiatives at start of combat.

The same initiative # is not the same thing as same initiative count. Initiative count is the order that you go in initiative, and has nothing to do with the number you roll. The number you roll is how you know what order you go in the count, not your actual count. Two characters that roll an initiative of 15 do NOT act on the same count, otherwise they would have to take their turns at the SAME TIME, which does not happen. Instead, the one with the higher modifier becomes 15+, and the other is 15-, or whatever arbitrary identifier you want to apply, and they go on those counts. While D&D combat is representative of simultaneous actions, it is still handled in a sequential manner. Basically there is no way for a stunned character to take any actions until the monk gets to act again, because the victim is stunned until the monk begins his action, and therefore the victim could only come off delay AFTER the monks action if he wished to act as soon as possible (because you can't come off delay in the middle of someone's actions).
Timlagor
03-01-07, 09:30 PM I'm sticking with my original interpretation.

You do not delay when you are stunned. On your initiative count you do nothing. Then it's the end of your turn and you haven't taken the "SPECIAL INITIATIVE ACTION" of delaying so you don't get to act until your initiative comes round again.
ShinAkuma2
03-01-07, 10:47 PM I didn't bother to read any of those too-long posts.

The point is, even if you could delay to just before the Stunner, THE STUN WEARS OFF JUST BEFORE THE STUNNER ACTS. If you go before the Stunner, then it is not "just before [his] next action", it's a full character's turn before him. If the Stun ends any time before the Stunner starts acting, then it hasn't been 1 round, and now the Stun is wearing off in the middle of someone else's turn.

The Stun would not wear off until the Stunner begins to act, and no amount of delaying can change that.
Mommy was an Orc
03-01-07, 10:56 PM I'm sticking with my original interpretation.

You do not delay when you are stunned. On your initiative count you do nothing. Then it's the end of your turn and you haven't taken the "SPECIAL INITIATIVE ACTION" of delaying so you don't get to act until your initiative comes round again.

Totally agree with this - the act of delaying is a special initiative action. You're stunned, your initiative count comes up, and you can take no actions. So you can't delay. A 5' step is a miscellaneous action, so you can't do that either.
Jay_Ibero_911
03-01-07, 11:00 PM Totally agree with this - the act of delaying is a special initiative action. You're stunned, your initiative count comes up, and you can take no actions. So you can't delay. A 5' step is a miscellaneous action, so you can't do that either.

Of course I agree, my arguments were hypothetical to explain why it wouldn't work even if you COULD delay.
Howie23
03-01-07, 11:07 PM Of course I agree, my arguments were hypothetical to explain why it wouldn't work even if you COULD delay.

The idea may be wrong, and I appreciate you helping me investigate it.

I'm coming up with two points out of the discussion.

1) Is the count a reference to the rolls, or merely an ordinal value. I've always assumed it was an ordinal value until reading the p. 138. I'm tending to think that p. 138 doesn't take the distinction into account.

2) There is a section referencing "Inaction" and indicating that original initiative is retained.

The first would answer the question of inserting between the end of stun and the stunner's action.

The second goes a long way toward killing off the delay idea.

Thanks again.

David
Zanzibax
03-02-07, 08:36 AM I have always played that the stunned guy would retain his initative order and that the "CAN act" refers to the ability to AoO and react to events around him (as opposed to not being able to while stunned).

I always thought that delaying and readying is a counscious effort and cannot be taken while stunned (since you aren't THAT aware of your surroundings to time your actions) and that once the stun wears off, despite you being aware from that point on, you cannot suddenly perform an non-reactive action until you assess the current situation, thus returning to your previous initiative.

I think that RAW, only readying, delaying and actually leaving and re-entering combat will adjust your initiative. If you see being stunned and returning out of stun as leaving and re-entering combat, then good. I just don't see it as such.

That's a good way to rule it...so how do we fix the text to match this?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Howie23 03-01-07, 03:00 PM	The example of effect duration on PHB p. 138 uses a 1 round stunning fist as an example. The duration of the stun is until just prior to the beginning of the stunning monk's initiative count. At which point the stunned character can act. I think that last sentence is different than usually played. I think usually, the approach is that a stunned character loses his turn, but retains his init position. Rather, as written, he effectively delays until the stun wears off, and then can act at that point. David
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 03:04 PM	The example of effect duration on PHB p. 138 uses a 1 round stunning fist as an example. The duration of the stun is until just prior to the beginning of the stunning monk's initiative count. At which point the stunned character can act. I think that last sentence is different than usually played. I think usually, the approach is that a stunned character loses his turn, but retains his init position. Rather, as written, he effectively delays until the stun wears off, and then can act at that point. David There's nothing wrong with the way it is written. At that point he CAN act. It says nothing about him GETTING to act. CAN=physically able to act=no longer stunned.
ShinAkuma2 03-01-07, 03:15 PM	I believe by "can act" they mean "behaves normally" (ie he no longer has penalties to AC, etc), rather than "receives actions".
Howie23 03-01-07, 03:16 PM	There's nothing wrong with the way it is written. At that point he CAN act. It says nothing about him GETTING to act. CAN=physically able to act=no longer stunned. Yep. So he effectively has been in delay since his prior init, and now has the option of coming out of delay. 1. Monk stuns...takes other actions 2. Other characters take their turns (if any) 3. Stunned character (who cannot take actions) delays (which is a non-action) 4. Other characters take their turns (if any) 5. Stun effect ends prior to monk's init 6. Stunned character can opt to come out of delayand take his turn (and probably should in most cases) 7. Monk now gets his next turn David
Howie23 03-01-07, 03:25 PM	I believe by "can act" they mean "behaves normally" (ie he no longer has penalties to AC, etc), rather than "receives actions". Right. So, can opt to come out of delay (implied or stated), or stay in delay until his turn comes around again. While the end of stun doesn't grant actions, coming out of delay in order to take his turn does. David
ShinAkuma2 03-01-07, 03:55 PM	The problem with that is that there's nowhere to insert yourself for the delay. If the Monk's initiative is 15, and you set yourself to 15 or more, then you are still Stunned because the Monk's next action hasn't come up yet. If you set yourself to 14 or less, well, you've really accomplished nothing in relation to the Monk. You might go before other people with init 14 or less, but that's not really the issue here.
Zanzibax 03-01-07, 04:06 PM	The problem with that is that there's nowhere to insert yourself for the delay. If the Monk's initiative is 15, and you set yourself to 15 or more, then you are still Stunned because the Monk's next action hasn't come up yet. If you set yourself to 14 or less, well, you've really accomplished nothing in relation to the Monk. You might go before other people with init 14 or less, but that's not really the issue here. It would work like a readied action. "just before the monk's initiative" or "just before the action readied against."
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 04:32 PM	It would work like a readied action. "just before the monk's initiative" or "just before the action readied against." Except readying an action IS an action, and you can't take actions while stunned. And you are stunned until the beginning of the monks turn, so if stunned, there is no way to take actions until after the monk's turn. Delaying is not an action, and therefore a stunned character could delay and then be able to take actions immediately after the monk goes, but can't do anything to take an action until the monk starts his turn. Interestingly enough, by RAW, a stunned character COULD take a 5ft step, because it's technically not an action.....
Howie23 03-01-07, 04:51 PM	Except readying an action IS an action, and you can't take actions while stunned. And you are stunned until the beginning of the monks turn, so if stunned, there is no way to take actions until after the monk's turn. Delaying is not an action, and therefore a stunned character could delay and then be able to take actions immediately after the monk goes, but can't do anything to take an action until the monk starts his turn. He didn't say to do it as a readied action, he said it could be adjudicated like (similar to) a readied action. The description of delay explicitly to allows you to come back into initiative like this; your timing determines your initiative count. Technically, the effect ends at the end of the initiative count prior to the monk's. The stunned character then comes out of delay in the same init count as the monk, but prior to the monk. David
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 05:12 PM	He didn't say to do it as a readied action, he said it could be adjudicated like (similar to) a readied action. The description of delay explicitly to allows you to come back into initiative like this; your timing determines your initiative count. Technically, the effect ends at the end of the initiative count prior to the monk's. The stunned character then comes out of delay in the same init count as the monk, but prior to the monk. David That's the fuzzy area, PRECISELY when the stun wears off. The way delay works is clear, you simply change your point in the initiative order. In this case, we'll designate 3 relevant points, your original initiative, going immediately before the monk, and immediately afterward. The stun effect ends at the end of the initiative count prior to the monk. If you delay to immediately prior to the monk, then you are still stunned until the end of your initiative count, because your initiative count is now the initiative right before the monk, and therefore you can take no actions.
Howie23 03-01-07, 05:21 PM	That's the fuzzy area, PRECISELY when the stun wears off. PHB p.138...says it right there. What's fuzzy? The way delay works is clear, you simply change your point in the initiative order. In this case, we'll designate 3 relevant points, your original initiative, going immediately before the monk, and immediately afterward. The stun effect ends at the end of the initiative count prior to the monk. If you delay to immediately prior to the monk, then you are still stunned until the end of your initiative count, because your initiative count is now the initiative right before the monk, and therefore you can take no actions. You don't have to specify the count prior in order to go before him. You can go in the same count as the monk, but before him (similar to having had a higher init modifier on a tied init roll). That's the point. David
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 05:48 PM	PHB p.138...says it right there. What's fuzzy? You don't have to specify the count prior in order to go before him. You can go in the same count as the monk, but before him (similar to having had a higher init modifier on a tied init roll). That's the point. David You CAN'T go on the SAME count. The same as if multiple characters roll the same initiative number, for example, if 2 characters get a 20 on initiative, the character with the higher modifier goes first, so one becomes 20+, the other 20-, or however you like. If you are stunned, you remain stunned until the end of the turn of whoever goes immediately before the monk. What would you do if (defying probability) all characters rolled the same initiative? By your argument it would be impossible for a monk to stun anyone because they would immediately be unstunned after the monk finishes his action. Here's some examples of initiative order: Monk=M Stunned guy=S Everyone else=#'s 1) ##M##S On monk's turn, he successfuly stuns S. It comes to S's turn, he's stunned, and can't take any actions. He can delay however. 2) ##SM## S has delayed to immediately before the monk. S is still stunned, and remains stunned until the end of his action because stunning lasts until the end of the turn before the monk. 3)##MS## S, realizing he wouldn't get to take any action until after the monk goes anyway, decides to delay until immediately after the monk, hoping not to get stunned again. He gets lucky and isn't stunned, and therefore can take his actions as normal, and his point in initiative will remain immediately after the monk until otherwise changed. What you don't seem to understand is that there is no such thing as simultaneous initiative, despite the possibility of having the same initiative number. That's why in that case it goes by modifier, and then to roll off. The stunned character does not have the option of coming off delay ON the monks turn. His turn either comes before the monk, or after the monk, and his status is then determined as appropriate to the time of his action.
jstorrie 03-01-07, 07:16 PM	You CAN go on the same count. The character with the highest initiative modifier goes first if two characters share the same count, and if their modifiers are equal, you roll off. It's the same as if you'd rolled the same initiatives at start of combat.
Howie23 03-01-07, 07:57 PM	You CAN'T go on the SAME count. The same as if multiple characters roll the same initiative number, for example, if 2 characters get a 20 on initiative, the character with the higher modifier goes first, so one becomes 20+, the other 20-, or however you like. If they both roll a 20, they are both on 20 count, with the higher init mod going first. They are on the same count, but they are not simultaneous. If you are stunned, you remain stunned until the end of the turn of whoever goes immediately before the monk. It doesn't say that. It says until the end of the init count prior, where init count is determined by the initiative check (a number), not the sequence (who goes immediately prior). What would you do if (defying probability) all characters rolled the same initiative? By your argument it would be impossible for a monk to stun anyone because they would immediately be unstunned after the monk finishes his action. That doesn't follow. The stunned target would be stunned until coming out of delay (at the end of the count prior to all of their init). During that time, the stunned target would drop all items, would be at -2 AC for all attacks during that time, and could not take actions. He would shift in sequence from either after the monk to before the monk, or would effectively stay in the same place in order. It does have the effect of sequential stuns not taking a target completely out of the battle. Each round, he would shake his head, look at his empty hands, and then attempt to do something before getting stunned again. Here's some examples of initiative order: Monk=M Stunned guy=S Everyone else=#'s Let's see how it works when using the rules as written: Bad Monk=M Stunned Good guy=S Fighter Good guy = F Cleric Good guy = C Monk rolls 17, Stunned guy rolls 5, Fighter rolls 19, Cleric rolls 2. The numbers below are init count. Init Sequence (with count) is: 19F 18 17M 16...6 5S 4 3 2C Round 1: Fighter does something. Monk moves up and flurries. He stuns Stunned guy, who drops everything and is -2AC while the other attacks are inbound. Stunned guy delays. Cleric casts a 3 round duration spell, call it Q. Round 2 Init looks like this: 19F 18(end of stun) 17SM 16..4 3Q 2C. [note that S is shown where he is planning to come out of delay for simplicity] S and M now will be on the same count. They are not simultaneous. S will go before M. What you don't seem to understand is that there is no such thing as simultaneous initiative, despite the possibility of having the same initiative number. Rather, that is what you think I understand, despite the fact that I do, and have presented this discussion ENTIRELY within that context. It looks to me that you are treating initiative count and initiative order as the same thing. They aren't the same, although we usually treat them as such for simplicity. It is possible to have three bad guys, [A,B,C], and three good guys [X,Y,Z], all in the same initiative count, and yet have a defined initiative order. Effects last until a point in time, based upon the init count, not to the actions of an individual, which is based largely upon initiative order. That distinction, and managing effects within it, is the point of this thread. That's why in that case it goes by modifier, and then to roll off. The stunned character does not have the option of coming off delay ON the monks turn. His turn either comes before the monk, or after the monk, and his status is then determined as appropriate to the time of his action. Precisely, but not the way you have presented it. He cannot come out on the monk's turn, but he can come out on the monk's count (which is now shared, is not simultaneous, and is sequential). David
JJeff 03-01-07, 08:04 PM	I have always played that the stunned guy would retain his initative order and that the "CAN act" refers to the ability to AoO and react to events around him (as opposed to not being able to while stunned). I always thought that delaying and readying is a counscious effort and cannot be taken while stunned (since you aren't THAT aware of your surroundings to time your actions) and that once the stun wears off, despite you being aware from that point on, you cannot suddenly perform an non-reactive action until you assess the current situation, thus returning to your previous initiative. I think that RAW, only readying, delaying and actually leaving and re-entering combat will adjust your initiative. If you see being stunned and returning out of stun as leaving and re-entering combat, then good. I just don't see it as such.
Howie23 03-01-07, 08:06 PM	I have always played that the stunned guy would retain his initative order and that the "CAN act" refers to the ability to AoO and react to events around him (as opposed to not being able to while stunned). I always thought that delaying and readying is a counscious effort and cannot be taken while stunned (since you aren't THAT aware of your surroundings to time your actions) and that once the stun wears off, despite you being aware from that point on, you cannot suddenly perform an non-reactive action until you assess the current situation, thus returning to your previous initiative. So have I. Largely because I haven't recognized that there is an alternative to how to view what is written. That is what I'm exploring here. David
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 08:11 PM	You CAN go on the same count. The character with the highest initiative modifier goes first if two characters share the same count, and if their modifiers are equal, you roll off. It's the same as if you'd rolled the same initiatives at start of combat. The same initiative # is not the same thing as same initiative count. Initiative count is the order that you go in initiative, and has nothing to do with the number you roll. The number you roll is how you know what order you go in the count, not your actual count. Two characters that roll an initiative of 15 do NOT act on the same count, otherwise they would have to take their turns at the SAME TIME, which does not happen. Instead, the one with the higher modifier becomes 15+, and the other is 15-, or whatever arbitrary identifier you want to apply, and they go on those counts. While D&D combat is representative of simultaneous actions, it is still handled in a sequential manner. Basically there is no way for a stunned character to take any actions until the monk gets to act again, because the victim is stunned until the monk begins his action, and therefore the victim could only come off delay AFTER the monks action if he wished to act as soon as possible (because you can't come off delay in the middle of someone's actions).
Timlagor 03-01-07, 09:30 PM	I'm sticking with my original interpretation. You do not delay when you are stunned. On your initiative count you do nothing. Then it's the end of your turn and you haven't taken the "SPECIAL INITIATIVE ACTION" of delaying so you don't get to act until your initiative comes round again.
ShinAkuma2 03-01-07, 10:47 PM	I didn't bother to read any of those too-long posts. The point is, even if you could delay to just before the Stunner, THE STUN WEARS OFF JUST BEFORE THE STUNNER ACTS. If you go before the Stunner, then it is not "just before [his] next action", it's a full character's turn before him. If the Stun ends any time before the Stunner starts acting, then it hasn't been 1 round, and now the Stun is wearing off in the middle of someone else's turn. The Stun would not wear off until the Stunner begins to act, and no amount of delaying can change that.
Mommy was an Orc 03-01-07, 10:56 PM	I'm sticking with my original interpretation. You do not delay when you are stunned. On your initiative count you do nothing. Then it's the end of your turn and you haven't taken the "SPECIAL INITIATIVE ACTION" of delaying so you don't get to act until your initiative comes round again. Totally agree with this - the act of delaying is a special initiative action. You're stunned, your initiative count comes up, and you can take no actions. So you can't delay. A 5' step is a miscellaneous action, so you can't do that either.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 11:00 PM	Totally agree with this - the act of delaying is a special initiative action. You're stunned, your initiative count comes up, and you can take no actions. So you can't delay. A 5' step is a miscellaneous action, so you can't do that either. Of course I agree, my arguments were hypothetical to explain why it wouldn't work even if you COULD delay.
Howie23 03-01-07, 11:07 PM	Of course I agree, my arguments were hypothetical to explain why it wouldn't work even if you COULD delay. The idea may be wrong, and I appreciate you helping me investigate it. I'm coming up with two points out of the discussion. 1) Is the count a reference to the rolls, or merely an ordinal value. I've always assumed it was an ordinal value until reading the p. 138. I'm tending to think that p. 138 doesn't take the distinction into account. 2) There is a section referencing "Inaction" and indicating that original initiative is retained. The first would answer the question of inserting between the end of stun and the stunner's action. The second goes a long way toward killing off the delay idea. Thanks again. David
Zanzibax 03-02-07, 08:36 AM	I have always played that the stunned guy would retain his initative order and that the "CAN act" refers to the ability to AoO and react to events around him (as opposed to not being able to while stunned). I always thought that delaying and readying is a counscious effort and cannot be taken while stunned (since you aren't THAT aware of your surroundings to time your actions) and that once the stun wears off, despite you being aware from that point on, you cannot suddenly perform an non-reactive action until you assess the current situation, thus returning to your previous initiative. I think that RAW, only readying, delaying and actually leaving and re-entering combat will adjust your initiative. If you see being stunned and returning out of stun as leaving and re-entering combat, then good. I just don't see it as such. That's a good way to rule it...so how do we fix the text to match this?