Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 07-05-07, 02:08 PM	With the new Dispel Confusion, I was wondering, even though the character itself can no longer commit suicide if they come back as an NPC, what's to stop them from having the party just keep killing them and re-incarnating them until they are either run out of gold, are level 1, or are a race they want to be? Especially if while still a PC the character gave them explicit instructions to do so. Even if as an NPC they say they don't want to anymore, the party can still kill them and reincarnate them again right?
Britt 07-05-07, 02:33 PM	Except: 1. It would be cold-blooded murder, which would be a very evil act and likely to get your character removed. 2. They would still be an NPC, even if they returned to a PC race. Once an NPC, always an NPC.
bitznarf 07-05-07, 03:03 PM	1. It would be cold-blooded murder, which would be a very evil act and likely to get your character removed. This one would be a matter of DM opinion I think. How do you 'murder' someone who says 'kill me'?
Simpi 07-05-07, 03:29 PM	This one would be a matter of DM opinion I think. How do you 'murder' someone who says 'kill me'? Of course, as Triad member I would immediately start proceedings to retire PCs who does suicides becauce said player is deliberately avoiding retirement. Perhaps the situation should just be resolved by a simple ruling in next DC that says "PCs cannot commit suicide or murder each other due to attempts to abuse reincarnation rules" because quite frankly, it is quite sad for LG that people are actually seriously discussing benefits of killing each other in an effort to gain the optimal race. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
bitznarf 07-05-07, 03:36 PM	No disagreement on that one from me Sampo. I do seem to recall something about the forced retirement of PCs who are actively trying to avoid it by one means or another. My disagreement was on the removal due to being evil bit.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-05-07, 03:39 PM	Of course, as Triad member I would immediately start proceedings to retire PCs who does suicides becauce said player is deliberately avoiding retirement. Perhaps the situation should just be resolved by a simple ruling in next DC that says "PCs cannot commit suicide or murder each other due to attempts to abuse reincarnation rules" because quite frankly, it is quite sad for LG that people are actually seriously discussing benefits of killing each other in an effort to gain the optimal race. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad You'd need some way of proving that they are intentionally doing it to avoid retirement. If they are doing it for any other reason, then that rule wouldn't technically apply.
Howie23 07-05-07, 03:49 PM	Of course, as Triad member I would immediately start proceedings to retire PCs who does suicides becauce said player is deliberately avoiding retirement. The current LGCS has no prohibition on avoiding retirement. David
TheBlackFlail 07-05-07, 04:20 PM	What about chaos beasts? Is it cold blooded murder (or abuse of the retirement rules) to kill a character who can't be healed in time to prevent them turning into a chaos beast and be raised later?
Britt 07-05-07, 04:50 PM	Even if as an NPC they say they don't want to anymore, the party can still kill them and reincarnate them again right? That's what I was saying would be cold-blooded murder. As for intentionally avoiding retirement, this type of activity would likely not qualify as that. And yes, intentionally avoiding retirement is justification for forcing a PC into retirement. While there are ways to abuse reincarnate, the odds are not really in your favor at all. Plus, the risk of becoming an NPC really discourages it. You might see someone trying it at low levels, 2 or 3, but beyond that, the possible reward doesn't justify the risk.
Howie23 07-05-07, 05:17 PM	As for intentionally avoiding retirement, this type of activity would likely not qualify as that. And yes, intentionally avoiding retirement is justification for forcing a PC into retirement. Where do I find the rule that a PC can be forced into retirement? This was taken out of the last LGCS. Edit: BTW..I have no problem with the rule. I am concerned about things, such as this, where they have been taken out of the LGCS, yet still expected to be in force. Likewise with rulings that are made using strong foundational language and then picked apart by details. It has the affect of making it very difficult to adjudicate, and detracts from the goal of empowering the DMs. David
Vamroc 07-05-07, 05:23 PM	What about chaos beasts? Is it cold blooded murder (or abuse of the retirement rules) to kill a character who can't be healed in time to prevent them turning into a chaos beast and be raised later? Well now your either looking for reasons to do this in game or your just being silly. Mercy killings aren't allowed either when the player turns in to a chaos beast then you can kill him. Not before until then he is your party member. The player with DM approval might be allowed in this case to take his own life. This would be a very rare case and not the norm with regards to undesired transformitive conditions except Lychanthropy. Because when you contract lycanthropy the PC can return to being a playable charactor and be cured most of the time. However killing him in his were state is not an evil act
ithardin 07-05-07, 05:39 PM	We had a situation in one of my very first LG games a couple of years ago. I wraith had left a party member at negative hit points. We had no healing and that party member was going to die and then turn into a wraith in 1d4 rounds. In this case, is "finishing off" the PC so that she isn't killed by the Wraith (and won't become one), which also allows the PC to be reincarnated, etc. an acceptable tactic? At the time the DM and the rest of the table (who had been getting their butts kicked by the Wraith) agreed that it was and so the CN Rogue of the party killed her.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-05-07, 05:48 PM	We had a situation in one of my very first LG games a couple of years ago. I wraith had left a party member at negative hit points. We had no healing and that party member was going to die and then turn into a wraith in 1d4 rounds. In this case, is "finishing off" the PC so that she isn't killed by the Wraith (and won't become one), which also allows the PC to be reincarnated, etc. an acceptable tactic? At the time the DM and the rest of the table (who had been getting their butts kicked by the Wraith) agreed that it was and so the CN Rogue of the party killed her. Well lets see, they were unconsious and bleeding out, you had no way to heal them. So they were going to die either way. It was self defense. And I'm not so sure that they would have become a wraith unless it was the wraith attack that actually put him past -9. If he died of blood loss, it was the bleeding that killed him, not the wraith...
Britt 07-05-07, 06:19 PM	Where do I find the rule that a PC can be forced into retirement? This was taken out of the last LGCS. I don't recall it being in any LGCS. If it was taken out, it was unintentional. This falls under the category of enforcing rules on people that are attempting to exploit loopholes that are obviously not within the intent of the rules.
Howie23 07-05-07, 06:44 PM	I don't recall it being in any LGCS. If it was taken out, it was unintentional. This falls under the category of enforcing rules on people that are attempting to exploit loopholes that are obviously not within the intent of the rules. It was on page 13 of the CY 596 LGCS (March 14 edition). David
Britt 07-05-07, 08:22 PM	It was an unintentional removal then, but the general axiom that attempting to circumvent campaign rules is also illegal and can be enforced by campaign staff.
ithardin 07-05-07, 09:53 PM	In my opinion these are the most important (and most overlooked, ignored, etc) words in the entire LGCS: LGCS Version 7.5 (pg 5 under "Guidelines for Ethical Play" "Follow both the spirit and letter of the rules."
MatteBlack 07-05-07, 11:24 PM	It's sad that we even need to consider a ruling on this. If anyone finds themselves trying to justify doing this they really need to consider hanging up their dice bag. Especially, with retraining allowed the only possible legitimate excuse in character would be if your were reincarnated as a hated enemy. Suicide/reincarnation for build's sake is a slap in the face for anyone who even tries to stay in character nevermind actually RP. Any of my friends should expect alot mocking if they do it. I am fine with DMs or triad members just telling the player "no", no reason given, whether or not the rule is printed in the LGCS.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-05-07, 11:45 PM	It's sad that we even need to consider a ruling on this. If anyone finds themselves trying to justify doing this they really need to consider hanging up their dice bag. Especially, with retraining allowed the only possible legitimate excuse in character would be if your were reincarnated as a hated enemy. Suicide/reincarnation for build's sake is a slap in the face for anyone who even tries to stay in character nevermind actually RP. Any of my friends should expect alot mocking if they do it. I am fine with DMs or triad members just telling the player "no", no reason given, whether or not the rule is printed in the LGCS. Well to get to my original topic, there's no problem there because of the "once an NPC, always an NPC" rule. As far as repeat suicide+reincarnation, not much say anyone has while it's explicitly allowed by the dispel confusion.
foolwholaughsatdeath 07-06-07, 09:59 PM	Not sure how anybody else feels about this issue, but I feel strongly that this is a horrible mistake from the LG powers that be. I don't think suicide should be presented (let alone encouraged) as an option for real or imagined people. (perhaps excepting Kevorkian's work and euthanasia for the right reasons.) I also think that one of the things that makes a Hero a Hero, or a PC a PC, is the will to live, to keep on keeping on, even in the face of severe adversity. I think once a Hero/PC loses this will, he is no longer a PC, but an NPC. While power gaming is becoming more and more admired in RPGA circles (when it used to ridiculed for being "Munchkin-esque", but that's a different topic) this to me is totally outrageous. It just blows my mind that the RPGA would support a rule like this. I have a hard time imagining a single decent judge allowing this at his/her table, never mind an entire organization making it legit. I think there should be a rule that a PC who commits suicide should be converted to an NPC immediately for the reasons I stated before. I think PC's who commit suicide should be out of the game (whether dead or NPC). Of course some PC's will "commit suicide" by doing heroic/stupid/brave things and this should be allowed on a case by case basis. Gandalf holding off the Balrog is one thing, and adds dramatic tension and excitement to the game. A 15th level archer at a safe distance who decides to charge a purple worm (and I've seen this happen) is highly suspect of abusing a loophole to avoid retirement. I don't think D&D/RPGA/LG should be in any fashion condoning/supporting suicide or suicidal actions for PC's. DOn't get me wrong, there is a difference between heroic actions involving self-sacrifice and someone offing a character because they reincarnated as a grey elf instead of a wood elf. The act of a PC killing themselves with no heroic motive/results is repugnant and should have no place in the game. It is powergaming at its worst and should be called out for what it truly is.
Britt 07-06-07, 11:47 PM	As I said above, this entire issue is akin to "I really don't think you should allow something that is probably never going to happen. It's not proper for someone to do something they aren't going to do." The risk of losing a mid-high level PC is not worth intentional suicide; the cost of suicide at low level will put you below the gp:xp curve for a few levels, assuming you even get what you are wanting without becoming an NPC. This is really a non-issue. This is only going to be happening, 99% of the time or more, to prevent things like Create Spawn effects, and that's not really inappropriate. Avoiding retirement is already illegal and enforced by Triads where appropriate.
Arvagor 07-08-07, 03:10 AM	We had a situation in one of my very first LG games a couple of years ago. I wraith had left a party member at negative hit points. We had no healing and that party member was going to die and then turn into a wraith in 1d4 rounds.So no one in the party was willing to attempt a Heal check to stabilize them?
_metz_ 07-08-07, 03:43 AM	Hmm, these issues are why I asked the question in the dispel confusion. Essentially what I am after, if not guidelines on Suicide, is maybe the re-addition of the statement regarding attempts to avoid retirement, and perhaps a clearer one on attempts to break the spirit of the rules (with perhaps something the DM can do.)
gomeztoo 07-08-07, 09:44 AM	In this case, is "finishing off" the PC so that she isn't killed by the Wraith (and won't become one), which also allows the PC to be reincarnated, etc. an acceptable tactic? IMO: No. You can still make heal checks to stabilize (all you need is a 15, and you have at least 3, if nor more, attempts per round). As to killing yourself after reincarnation: some PCs may simply not want to be a certain race. I.e. I would not be surprised if one of our local Gnarley elves would throw himself on his word if re-incarnated in a half-orc (or, perhaps even anything that is not an elf). So I can see it happen in character. The risk is bigger than the potential gain.
King Kashue 07-09-07, 05:30 PM	Well now your either looking for reasons to do this in game or your just being silly. Mercy killings aren't allowed either when the player turns in to a chaos beast then you can kill him. Not before until then he is your party member. Incorrect. "Finishing off" a character before they turn into a form of undead is perfectly legal if you have player consent. "If you voluntarily attack another PC with the intent to do serious or permanent harm, without the other player’s permission, your PC’s alignment is automatically shifted to evil." (LGCS 7.5 p.14) If you have the player's permission, you could certainly kill them in order to avoid such an event (or for any reason actually, as long as it didn't run afoul of some other rule).
clannagh 07-09-07, 07:50 PM	Two comments: 1. In terms of evil. The perceived "morality" of killing someone in a world where they have already arranged for themselves to pay to "come back alive as themselves" (albiet somewhat stunted and possibly with unusual memory/skill losses if they cant afford a true res) is quite different to the real world where no such guaranteed return exist. 2. If you are seriously worried about this as a means of avoiding retirement or beating the xp/gc curve .. you would also need to address the possibility of people "voluntarily" exposing themselves to level drains. Personally i think instead of specific narrow rules to control player behaviour its better if the rare and unusual case of obvious abuse is simply handled on a case by case basis by the relevant triad.
Arcainite 07-12-07, 08:23 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=13042734#post13042734 In Living Greyhawk, do you lose the skill pts you got from last level (the one lost in the reincarnation) and what if you don't remember what skills you bought for some of those? Also, I'm wondering what the LG prohibitions are about cohorts. I am NG and now that I am a dwarf and have "made friendly contact with an Earth Elemental" I was thinking of taking an Earth Mephit as a cohort. This is assuming I am still a dwarf when I am able to take Leadership.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-13-07, 04:19 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=13042734#post13042734 In Living Greyhawk, do you lose the skill pts you got from last level (the one lost in the reincarnation) and what if you don't remember what skills you bought for some of those? Also, I'm wondering what the LG prohibitions are about cohorts. I am NG and now that I am a dwarf and have "made friendly contact with an Earth Elemental" I was thinking of taking an Earth Mephit as a cohort. This is assuming I am still a dwarf when I am able to take Leadership. You'd need special access to an earth mephit cohort. Normally cohorts can only be PC races and get the elite array. You could get an Earth Mephit familiar with the complete scoundrel version of Improved Familiar however...
LGMoses 07-16-07, 03:03 AM	lol, can i bring my LG character who got reincarnated as a bugbear back if I play a special mission to find a powerful wizard to polymorph me into a human and make it permanent? :D
ShinAkuma2 07-16-07, 01:38 PM	lol, can i bring my LG character who got reincarnated as a bugbear back if I play a special mission to find a powerful wizard to polymorph me into a human and make it permanent? :D Unfortunately, a "Permanent" Polymorph isn't particularly permanent in a world of Anti-Magic, Disjunction, etc.
DuctShuiTengu 07-17-07, 02:02 PM	While we're on the subject of Reincarnate, it specifies that the subject must be willing to return for the spell to work. At what point is it decided whether the character is willing? I.E. could you wait until after you've rolled to see what you're coming back as, then decide "No, I don't want to be a bugbear," thereby stopping the spell from working before the character becomes an NPC for being an inappropriate race?
Jay_Ibero_911 07-17-07, 04:48 PM	While we're on the subject of Reincarnate, it specifies that the subject must be willing to return for the spell to work. At what point is it decided whether the character is willing? I.E. could you wait until after you've rolled to see what you're coming back as, then decide "No, I don't want to be a bugbear," thereby stopping the spell from working before the character becomes an NPC for being an inappropriate race? Ooh...good question. While I don't think there is any raw for it, my feeling is that you don't actually know what you are coming back as until you actually come back, hence the need for suicide. Otherwise you could just refuse to come back, avoiding the level loss from the suicide and avoiding becoming an NPC entirely until you got exactly the race you wanted...
DuctShuiTengu 07-18-07, 11:25 AM	That's my feeling as well. Though from a balance perspective, it probably wouldn't mess things up too much, since you're having to pay for multiple reincarnates. If someone's willing to put themself that far behind the GP curve just to be a dwarf, is it really a problem? (That said, in a home campaign, my NPC druids wouldn't be willing to keep trying to reincarnate someone until they agreed to go along with it. You didn't like it the first time? Go find a cleric to Raise you.)
bitznarf 07-18-07, 07:27 PM	Getting raised only puts you behind the gold curve until about level 6 or 7. Getting reincarnated almost never puts you behind the gold curve, it puts you way ahead.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-18-07, 08:40 PM	Getting raised only puts you behind the gold curve until about level 6 or 7. Getting resurrected almost never puts you behind the gold curve, it puts you way ahead. How does res not put you behind? It costs MORE than raise...unless you are referring to the fact that by the time you CAN afford a res that it is usually covered by overcap gold....
bitznarf 07-18-07, 10:55 PM	I meant reincarnated, typo.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-19-07, 12:25 AM	I meant reincarnated, typo. Well that makes more sense...though with the associated risk with reincarnate...the GP savings are a very minor benefit...
bitznarf 07-19-07, 12:31 AM	I was merely disputing the claim that dying and getting reincarnated puts you behind the GP curve, thats it.
clannagh 07-19-07, 01:13 AM	Clearly the best way to get above the gold curve is to get level drained and then dilly dally to long getting a restoration. Do it to often and triad might deem you are trying to avoid retirement though. Bearing in mind the optimal time to die to get above the gold curve is when you take max XP loss which is just before you level (as opposed to just after you level if you are trying to minmise XP loss) you will be square/just above the gold curve with a full priced (5000 gc raise) from late level 5 onwards. Death whilst sitting on 9995 XP results in losing 5445 XP. It will cost you 5000 to raise and you will make 5445 gold back by the time you reach that level again. Living expenses are likely to take most of that excess 445 gold making you about square. Dieing just before leveling at any point above Level 5 means your character is gaining gold.
_metz_ 07-19-07, 08:13 AM	Clearly the best way to get above the gold curve is to get level drained and then dilly dally to long getting a restoration. Do it to often and triad might deem you are trying to avoid retirement though. Bearing in mind the optimal time to die to get above the gold curve is when you take max XP loss which is just before you level (as opposed to just after you level if you are trying to minmise XP loss) you will be square/just above the gold curve with a full priced (5000 gc raise) from late level 5 onwards. Death whilst sitting on 9995 XP results in losing 5445 XP. It will cost you 5000 to raise and you will make 5445 gold back by the time you reach that level again. Living expenses are likely to take most of that excess 445 gold making you about square. Dieing just before leveling at any point above Level 5 means your character is gaining gold. If you have spare TUs its only 2,500 gc...