Summon Monster question. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Summon Monster question. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rerednaw
02-27-07, 05:04 PM I run into this very frequently at LG tables. A caster summons a creature and then proceeds to direct how it attacks. i.e. 'My monstrous centipede grapples the enemy caster'

Am I missing something? I play a summoner and never do this because I never read anywhere about having an automatic telepathic link with a summoned creature.

If a druid has speak with animals how it would work with his summoned critters. If a mage has Tongues, knows the appropriate language, uses some form of telepathic bond spell, or if the creature itself has a means of communication I can see how this would work.

A summoned creature could use a different tactic (other than smash what it thinks is the biggest threat) or ability if it is it's nature to do so i.e. a crocodile with improved grab will use it to trap and drag a creature underwater.

Thoughts?
Jay_Ibero_911
02-27-07, 05:12 PM I run into this very frequently at LG tables. A caster summons a creature and then proceeds to direct how it attacks. i.e. 'My monstrous centipede grapples the enemy caster'

Am I missing something? I play a summoner and never do this because I never read anywhere about having an automatic telepathic link with a summoned creature.

If a druid has speak with animals how it would work with his summoned critters. If a mage has Tongues, knows the appropriate language, uses some form of telepathic bond spell, or if the creature itself has a means of communication I can see how this would work.

A summoned creature could use a different tactic (other than smash what it thinks is the biggest threat) or ability if it is it's nature to do so i.e. a crocodile with improved grab will use it to trap and drag a creature underwater.

Thoughts?

It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

The phrase "attacks to your opponents to the best of its ability", while not directly giving the player control, does empower the player to determine what the best of a creature's ability is, while still requiring some communication ability to direct a creature to change targets or do other things...
KarmaInferno
02-27-07, 05:15 PM You are correct. Summon spells state:

It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

If you don't have the ability to communicate, I as a judge would allow you to direct it's attacks as long as you use tactics that seem reasonable for the creature's nature.

Nothing fancy or requiring precise coordination with other combatants, though. Like no delaying until some special ability goes off to maximize a particular combo, for example.

-karma
FriendoftheDork
02-27-07, 06:22 PM It attacks to the best of it's ability, which the DM decides because the DM is the arbiter. That may or may not be what the player wants or anticipates, as the monster may not have the PCs intelligence or knowledge.

Example: The player may want the summoned creature to delay it's charge until the party wizard has blasted their enemies, but the creature doesen't know that.

The player only decides where the creature spawn (within range).
Jay_Ibero_911
02-27-07, 06:42 PM It attacks to the best of it's ability, which the DM decides because the DM is the arbiter. That may or may not be what the player wants or anticipates, as the monster may not have the PCs intelligence or knowledge.

Example: The player may want the summoned creature to delay it's charge until the party wizard has blasted their enemies, but the creature doesen't know that.

The player only decides where the creature spawn (within range).

I don't think so. Every DM I've ever encountered has left it up to the player unless they are trying to get the summoned creature to do something wierd. Also, many summoned monsters have an intelligence of at least 3, meaning they are capable of taking any course of action a PC would. Of course, they aren't telepathic either (usually), so it is of course unreasonable to expect the creature to delay/ready actions for other party members who can't communicate with it.
King Kashue
02-27-07, 06:59 PM "Best of its abilities" is usually handled as "directed by the player, subject to the approval of the Judge".

In the specific example in the first post, if the enemy spell caster is the nearest enemy, grappling him seems a reasonable course of action, because it's a giant gorram centipede. Grappling then gnawing on him seems both exceedingly effective , simple, and reasonable. :D

Now, if there are closer enemies, then it's a different story. Animal intelligence bypassing closer prey would get a nix if I were judging.

Other tactics depend on the creature. The crocodile moving to the flank? Not buying it. The Dire Wolf? Sure, they're not called "wolf pack" tactics for nothing. That same dire wolf grappling? Sorry, that negates it's free trip, which is it's best ability, it's not smart enough to recognize a situational advantage to grappling a spellcaster. But, a giant snake? Of course it's gonna grapple....and so on...

Now, Summon Monster 7, a Bone Devil, and a caster that speaks Infernal...Ooh, now that's a party! :D
Jay_Ibero_911
02-27-07, 07:37 PM You know, this topic makes me think how good 1 level of mindbender is to any summoner build. Automatically able to communicate with any creature with 3 or greater intelligence...
King Kashue
02-27-07, 08:26 PM You know, this topic makes me think how good 1 level of mindbender is to any summoner build. Automatically able to communicate with any creature with 3 or greater intelligence...

Most, not all. Some creatures with int above three still don't have a language (though there aren't many, and it's noted for the few that don't).
Jay_Ibero_911
02-28-07, 03:15 AM Most, not all. Some creatures with int above three still don't have a language (though there aren't many, and it's noted for the few that don't).

Even so...gonna be able to mentally direct virutally anything you bring up with a Summon Monster...not so much with Summon Nature's Ally though, except for elementals and other similar creatures...
King Kashue
02-28-07, 03:34 AM Even so...gonna be able to mentally direct virutally anything you bring up with a Summon Monster...not so much with Summon Nature's Ally though, except for elementals and other similar creatures...

Unfortunate thing about Mindbender (if a judge feels like doing this) telepathy is a Supernatural ability, which means it's a standard action to use.

I wouldn't rule it that way (I have yet to judge one, but I do play one :D), but there's nothing in the description to say otherwise, and the default for supernatural abilities is a standard action, so that would be the applicable rule.

One judge I know has a standard action to initiate the ability, then free to communicate with anyone with whom you've established contact. Which sort of makes sense. Takes a bit of effort to "find their mind", but once you have you "know where it is".
Jay_Ibero_911
02-28-07, 02:34 PM Unfortunate thing about Mindbender (if a judge feels like doing this) telepathy is a Supernatural ability, which means it's a standard action to use.

I wouldn't rule it that way (I have yet to judge one, but I do play one :D), but there's nothing in the description to say otherwise, and the default for supernatural abilities is a standard action, so that would be the applicable rule.

One judge I know has a standard action to initiate the ability, then free to communicate with anyone with whom you've established contact. Which sort of makes sense. Takes a bit of effort to "find their mind", but once you have you "know where it is".

I think that's kinda silly. Divine Grace is also a supernatural ability. Would you make a paladin take a standard action to activate it? They are both abilities that are simply always on...
ShinAkuma2
02-28-07, 03:08 PM I think that's kinda silly. Divine Grace is also a supernatural ability. Would you make a paladin take a standard action to activate it? They are both abilities that are simply always on...

Perhaps when the Paladin got the ability, he took a standard action to activate it. Since it lists no duration, it continues to work forever.

Did I just blow your mind?!
Jay_Ibero_911
02-28-07, 03:33 PM Perhaps when the Paladin got the ability, he took a standard action to activate it. Since it lists no duration, it continues to work forever.

Did I just blow your mind?!

The same can be said of telepathy....
King Kashue
02-28-07, 05:57 PM I think that's kinda silly. Divine Grace is also a supernatural ability. Would you make a paladin take a standard action to activate it? They are both abilities that are simply always on...

Divine grace is passive though, Telepathy is communication, and communication is by definition active. I don't agree, but I can see how someone is saying it's closer to smite evil or lay on hands than it is to divine grace.
Japangirl
02-28-07, 06:02 PM The telepathy is always active, but you take the normal amount of time to actually talk to someone (ie free action of 6-7 words, standard action for speaking about 30 words, etc), you just talk to them in their head instead of using your mouth. The communication time is the same, but the telepathy itself is a passive ability.

Or so I read it.
ShinAkuma2
02-28-07, 06:34 PM The same can be said of telepathy....

Well, it was made in jest anyway.

As it stands, I agree that it should be an "always on" ability. It's not like it's a standard action to shout "Pay attention to me!" when speaking in combat.
King Kashue
02-28-07, 07:36 PM The telepathy is always active, but you take the normal amount of time to actually talk to someone (ie free action of 6-7 words, standard action for speaking about 30 words, etc), you just talk to them in their head instead of using your mouth. The communication time is the same, but the telepathy itself is a passive ability.

Or so I read it.

That's how I read it too.

But there is nothing to say it's instantaneous, and the default is standard action.

Like I said, I didn't agree with the judge who ruled that way, but the "standard action to initiate, free action to continue" does have an internal logic of sorts, so I wasn't upset or anything.
Gallaway
03-01-07, 12:51 AM The summoner having some semblance of control over the summon makes sense.

It would be rather interesting if the GM ruled the monster was summoned as neutral and could actually attack the summoners party .. eh what :)
Cardinal Teplin
03-01-07, 01:31 PM Anyone got any tips on how to communicate with summoned monsters?

I'm playing an alienist, and not being able to communicate with the beasties is a bit of a tactical problem. (Pseudonatural creatures have no language, as far as I can tell).
King Kashue
03-01-07, 01:40 PM Anyone got any tips on how to communicate with summoned monsters?

I'm playing an alienist, and not being able to communicate with the beasties is a bit of a tactical problem. (Pseudonatural creatures have no language, as far as I can tell).

Most animals don't have language :(

So other than Profession: Pseudonatural Animal Trainer, I'm not thinking of any :(
Jay_Ibero_911
03-01-07, 01:49 PM Anyone got any tips on how to communicate with summoned monsters?

I'm playing an alienist, and not being able to communicate with the beasties is a bit of a tactical problem. (Pseudonatural creatures have no language, as far as I can tell).

Yeah, cases like that, you just summon the thing next to what you want it to attack. That's the best you'll get out of that...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 02-27-07, 05:04 PM	I run into this very frequently at LG tables. A caster summons a creature and then proceeds to direct how it attacks. i.e. 'My monstrous centipede grapples the enemy caster' Am I missing something? I play a summoner and never do this because I never read anywhere about having an automatic telepathic link with a summoned creature. If a druid has speak with animals how it would work with his summoned critters. If a mage has Tongues, knows the appropriate language, uses some form of telepathic bond spell, or if the creature itself has a means of communication I can see how this would work. A summoned creature could use a different tactic (other than smash what it thinks is the biggest threat) or ability if it is it's nature to do so i.e. a crocodile with improved grab will use it to trap and drag a creature underwater. Thoughts?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-27-07, 05:12 PM	I run into this very frequently at LG tables. A caster summons a creature and then proceeds to direct how it attacks. i.e. 'My monstrous centipede grapples the enemy caster' Am I missing something? I play a summoner and never do this because I never read anywhere about having an automatic telepathic link with a summoned creature. If a druid has speak with animals how it would work with his summoned critters. If a mage has Tongues, knows the appropriate language, uses some form of telepathic bond spell, or if the creature itself has a means of communication I can see how this would work. A summoned creature could use a different tactic (other than smash what it thinks is the biggest threat) or ability if it is it's nature to do so i.e. a crocodile with improved grab will use it to trap and drag a creature underwater. Thoughts? It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The phrase "attacks to your opponents to the best of its ability", while not directly giving the player control, does empower the player to determine what the best of a creature's ability is, while still requiring some communication ability to direct a creature to change targets or do other things...
KarmaInferno 02-27-07, 05:15 PM	You are correct. Summon spells state: It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. If you don't have the ability to communicate, I as a judge would allow you to direct it's attacks as long as you use tactics that seem reasonable for the creature's nature. Nothing fancy or requiring precise coordination with other combatants, though. Like no delaying until some special ability goes off to maximize a particular combo, for example. -karma
FriendoftheDork 02-27-07, 06:22 PM	It attacks to the best of it's ability, which the DM decides because the DM is the arbiter. That may or may not be what the player wants or anticipates, as the monster may not have the PCs intelligence or knowledge. Example: The player may want the summoned creature to delay it's charge until the party wizard has blasted their enemies, but the creature doesen't know that. The player only decides where the creature spawn (within range).
Jay_Ibero_911 02-27-07, 06:42 PM	It attacks to the best of it's ability, which the DM decides because the DM is the arbiter. That may or may not be what the player wants or anticipates, as the monster may not have the PCs intelligence or knowledge. Example: The player may want the summoned creature to delay it's charge until the party wizard has blasted their enemies, but the creature doesen't know that. The player only decides where the creature spawn (within range). I don't think so. Every DM I've ever encountered has left it up to the player unless they are trying to get the summoned creature to do something wierd. Also, many summoned monsters have an intelligence of at least 3, meaning they are capable of taking any course of action a PC would. Of course, they aren't telepathic either (usually), so it is of course unreasonable to expect the creature to delay/ready actions for other party members who can't communicate with it.
King Kashue 02-27-07, 06:59 PM	"Best of its abilities" is usually handled as "directed by the player, subject to the approval of the Judge". In the specific example in the first post, if the enemy spell caster is the nearest enemy, grappling him seems a reasonable course of action, because it's a giant gorram centipede. Grappling then gnawing on him seems both exceedingly effective , simple, and reasonable. :D Now, if there are closer enemies, then it's a different story. Animal intelligence bypassing closer prey would get a nix if I were judging. Other tactics depend on the creature. The crocodile moving to the flank? Not buying it. The Dire Wolf? Sure, they're not called "wolf pack" tactics for nothing. That same dire wolf grappling? Sorry, that negates it's free trip, which is it's best ability, it's not smart enough to recognize a situational advantage to grappling a spellcaster. But, a giant snake? Of course it's gonna grapple....and so on... Now, Summon Monster 7, a Bone Devil, and a caster that speaks Infernal...Ooh, now that's a party! :D
Jay_Ibero_911 02-27-07, 07:37 PM	You know, this topic makes me think how good 1 level of mindbender is to any summoner build. Automatically able to communicate with any creature with 3 or greater intelligence...
King Kashue 02-27-07, 08:26 PM	You know, this topic makes me think how good 1 level of mindbender is to any summoner build. Automatically able to communicate with any creature with 3 or greater intelligence... Most, not all. Some creatures with int above three still don't have a language (though there aren't many, and it's noted for the few that don't).
Jay_Ibero_911 02-28-07, 03:15 AM	Most, not all. Some creatures with int above three still don't have a language (though there aren't many, and it's noted for the few that don't). Even so...gonna be able to mentally direct virutally anything you bring up with a Summon Monster...not so much with Summon Nature's Ally though, except for elementals and other similar creatures...
King Kashue 02-28-07, 03:34 AM	Even so...gonna be able to mentally direct virutally anything you bring up with a Summon Monster...not so much with Summon Nature's Ally though, except for elementals and other similar creatures... Unfortunate thing about Mindbender (if a judge feels like doing this) telepathy is a Supernatural ability, which means it's a standard action to use. I wouldn't rule it that way (I have yet to judge one, but I do play one :D), but there's nothing in the description to say otherwise, and the default for supernatural abilities is a standard action, so that would be the applicable rule. One judge I know has a standard action to initiate the ability, then free to communicate with anyone with whom you've established contact. Which sort of makes sense. Takes a bit of effort to "find their mind", but once you have you "know where it is".
Jay_Ibero_911 02-28-07, 02:34 PM	Unfortunate thing about Mindbender (if a judge feels like doing this) telepathy is a Supernatural ability, which means it's a standard action to use. I wouldn't rule it that way (I have yet to judge one, but I do play one :D), but there's nothing in the description to say otherwise, and the default for supernatural abilities is a standard action, so that would be the applicable rule. One judge I know has a standard action to initiate the ability, then free to communicate with anyone with whom you've established contact. Which sort of makes sense. Takes a bit of effort to "find their mind", but once you have you "know where it is". I think that's kinda silly. Divine Grace is also a supernatural ability. Would you make a paladin take a standard action to activate it? They are both abilities that are simply always on...
ShinAkuma2 02-28-07, 03:08 PM	I think that's kinda silly. Divine Grace is also a supernatural ability. Would you make a paladin take a standard action to activate it? They are both abilities that are simply always on... Perhaps when the Paladin got the ability, he took a standard action to activate it. Since it lists no duration, it continues to work forever. Did I just blow your mind?!
Jay_Ibero_911 02-28-07, 03:33 PM	Perhaps when the Paladin got the ability, he took a standard action to activate it. Since it lists no duration, it continues to work forever. Did I just blow your mind?! The same can be said of telepathy....
King Kashue 02-28-07, 05:57 PM	I think that's kinda silly. Divine Grace is also a supernatural ability. Would you make a paladin take a standard action to activate it? They are both abilities that are simply always on... Divine grace is passive though, Telepathy is communication, and communication is by definition active. I don't agree, but I can see how someone is saying it's closer to smite evil or lay on hands than it is to divine grace.
Japangirl 02-28-07, 06:02 PM	The telepathy is always active, but you take the normal amount of time to actually talk to someone (ie free action of 6-7 words, standard action for speaking about 30 words, etc), you just talk to them in their head instead of using your mouth. The communication time is the same, but the telepathy itself is a passive ability. Or so I read it.
ShinAkuma2 02-28-07, 06:34 PM	The same can be said of telepathy.... Well, it was made in jest anyway. As it stands, I agree that it should be an "always on" ability. It's not like it's a standard action to shout "Pay attention to me!" when speaking in combat.
King Kashue 02-28-07, 07:36 PM	The telepathy is always active, but you take the normal amount of time to actually talk to someone (ie free action of 6-7 words, standard action for speaking about 30 words, etc), you just talk to them in their head instead of using your mouth. The communication time is the same, but the telepathy itself is a passive ability. Or so I read it. That's how I read it too. But there is nothing to say it's instantaneous, and the default is standard action. Like I said, I didn't agree with the judge who ruled that way, but the "standard action to initiate, free action to continue" does have an internal logic of sorts, so I wasn't upset or anything.
Gallaway 03-01-07, 12:51 AM	The summoner having some semblance of control over the summon makes sense. It would be rather interesting if the GM ruled the monster was summoned as neutral and could actually attack the summoners party .. eh what :)
Cardinal Teplin 03-01-07, 01:31 PM	Anyone got any tips on how to communicate with summoned monsters? I'm playing an alienist, and not being able to communicate with the beasties is a bit of a tactical problem. (Pseudonatural creatures have no language, as far as I can tell).
King Kashue 03-01-07, 01:40 PM	Anyone got any tips on how to communicate with summoned monsters? I'm playing an alienist, and not being able to communicate with the beasties is a bit of a tactical problem. (Pseudonatural creatures have no language, as far as I can tell). Most animals don't have language :( So other than Profession: Pseudonatural Animal Trainer, I'm not thinking of any :(
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 01:49 PM	Anyone got any tips on how to communicate with summoned monsters? I'm playing an alienist, and not being able to communicate with the beasties is a bit of a tactical problem. (Pseudonatural creatures have no language, as far as I can tell). Yeah, cases like that, you just summon the thing next to what you want it to attack. That's the best you'll get out of that...