Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rook1138 03-30-06, 05:17 PM	since the celestial/fiendish template gives the creature an int of 3, do vermin get 4 skill poins + 1 per HD beyond 1 and feats based off HD? The only reason they don't have skills or feats is because they are base int -, and since the celestial/fiendish template is not an acquired template, it is reasonable to believe that they would, since the condition resulting in them not having any skills or feats does not apply to them from birth. Just a thought. Matt T
Mortepierre 03-31-06, 12:01 PM	From the SRD: (emphasis mine) A celestial creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes. (same thing for fiendish creatures) As for the feats, if you take a look at the "Vermin" section of the MM, you'll notice some of them do have feats even though they lack an Int score.
rook1138 03-31-06, 01:34 PM	No, they have BONUS feats, not HD feats (at least, all the vermin in the SRD) And as for the skill points, that's from the change in INT, not change in TYPE. And per the SRD, vermin get skill points if they have an int (just most don't have an int). and under non-abilities in the SRD, its because creatures with no int gain no feats or skills per HD. However, since the template gives them an int score from birth, they no longer posses the non-ability of intelligence, therefore qualify to gain skills and feats per HD. And, since the skills are based off type, and vermin with an int get skills (according to the vermin entry in the SRD 'Types' definition), and a celestial vermin (now magical beast) has an int, it should get skills as a vermin, which as stated above they do when they have an int score. And since it has an int, it should get HD based feats as well. So my question still stands... Is this just completely ignored in LG, or are their any guidelines on how to manage this?
Mortepierre 04-01-06, 02:37 AM	And as for the skill points, that's from the change in INT, not change in TYPE. And per the SRD, vermin get skill points if they have an int (just most don't have an int). and under non-abilities in the SRD, its because creatures with no int gain no feats or skills per HD. However, since the template gives them an int score from birth, they no longer posses the non-ability of intelligence, therefore qualify to gain skills and feats per HD. And, since the skills are based off type, and vermin with an int get skills (according to the vermin entry in the SRD 'Types' definition), and a celestial vermin (now magical beast) has an int, it should get skills as a vermin, which as stated above they do when they have an int score. You are missing the point. Celestial/Fiendish is a template. Yes, it's "inherited" (thus, from birth) but no, you don't recalculate skill points. Why? Because the template itself says so! A celestial/fiendish creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here Do not recalculate the creature’s <snip> skill points if its type changes Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts You can argue all you want but the template's description is quite clear. Furthermore, since the creature retains all of its base statistics and abilities except as noted in the template AND the template says nothing about feat(s), one should conclude the templated creature doesn't gain any either. If you need a logical reason, then think of this: when a DM creates a templated creature, he usually doesn't have hours to do so (even less than that when said creature is summoned by a player or a NPC). IF he had to choose feats, assign skill pts, etc.. every time it would take too much time, not to mention produce creatures radically different from each others depending on the DM (one might give them multiattack while another would go for improved initiative, etc..). That wasn't the goal of the game since those creatures are supposed to be identical. Else, I could imagine summoners having some real fun conjuring stuff and dismissing it until they finally get the one with the feats/skills they wanted.
rook1138 04-14-06, 03:06 PM	You're right, I missed the point. All this time I thought I was claiming that the skills come from the int change, not the type change... type change is irrelevant. Vermin get skills of 2+int, min 1, x4 at first HD, provided they have an int. So, as calculating skill points AS A VERMIN, a vermin with the celestial template should have 4 skill points, plus 1 per HD beyond the first. Thank you for clearing that up. As for the feat question, I won't bother responding to that, since you obviously are stuck on the fact that the template doesn't explicitly say it gives a creature feats, which I understand. However it DOES remove the condition that prevents it from gaining them in the first place, a lack of intelligence. But that is neither here nor there. I was simply going off the RAW in the PHB and MM. As for "a logical explanation", when has that ever cleared things up when it comes to D&D rules discussion? Logic has no place in a world with magic. At least, that's my opinion :-p And it appears that this topic has now breached the living_greyhawk yahoo group, so we'll see how it plays out there. (and no, I didn't start it there). Merry Gaming to all, and to all a good init roll. :D You are missing the point. Celestial/Fiendish is a template. Yes, it's "inherited" (thus, from birth) but no, you don't recalculate skill points. Why? Because the template itself says so! You can argue all you want but the template's description is quite clear. Furthermore, since the creature retains all of its base statistics and abilities except as noted in the template AND the template says nothing about feat(s), one should conclude the templated creature doesn't gain any either. If you need a logical reason, then think of this: when a DM creates a templated creature, he usually doesn't have hours to do so (even less than that when said creature is summoned by a player or a NPC). IF he had to choose feats, assign skill pts, etc.. every time it would take too much time, not to mention produce creatures radically different from each others depending on the DM (one might give them multiattack while another would go for improved initiative, etc..). That wasn't the goal of the game since those creatures are supposed to be identical. Else, I could imagine summoners having some real fun conjuring stuff and dismissing it until they finally get the one with the feats/skills they wanted.
Saracen 04-17-06, 02:06 PM	Here are my questions and responses from WotC CustServ on this very issue (Blue is my question, Green is the response): Customer (Bryan Blumklotz) 04/15/2006 09:59 PM When adding the Celestial or Fiendish template to Vermin, the creature gains an Intelligence score of 3. This has some interesting complications. According to the Monster Manual (MM) a creature that has an intelligence score gains skills and feats. Does this mean that Celestial and Fiendish Vermin get skill points and feats? I assume that while a Celestial or Fiendish Vermin keeps it basic Vermin traits (though it does become a magical beast) it does loose the mindless feature of the type... Bryan Blumklotz RPGA# 809563 Response (Zephreum H.) 04/16/2006 12:04 PM Thank you for contacting us. Since mindless is based on type, you would not lose this attribute, and the creature will not gain skills and feats. Take Care! Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Customer (Bryan Blumklotz) 04/16/2006 09:45 PM Zephreum, “Since mindless is based on type, you would not lose this attribute, and the creature will not gain skills and feats.” Wow, you are now 0 for 2 with me. Mindless is not based on type, it is based upon not having an Intelligence score. See the listing for Vermin Type: “—Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. —Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).” (Monster Manual, page 317) Then look at the nonabilities listing: “Intelligence: Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is MINDLESS [Emphasis mine, BryanB], an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks. Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.” (Monster Manual, page 312). So now we have established that mindless is not dependent on Type we can go back to my original question that you did not answer. Further reading for you before you send me crap like your previous response: Templates (MM, pg. 291), specifically the Reading a Template section. Pay attention to Size and Type. Read the Celestial and Fiendish Templates write up in their respective sections in the Monster Manual. Once you are actually up to speed on these rules then you can start to think about what I was asking. Does a Vermin with the Celestial or Vermin Template gain skills and feats because it now has an Intelligence score of 3 and is no longer mindless. That is all I am asking. Bryan Blumklotz RPGA# 809563 Response (Zephreum H.) 04/17/2006 09:45 AM Thank you for contacting us. Yes, Wow. Sorry man, but early mornin Easter Sunday answering had me disheveled. You are correct. Since the Vermin is now considered a Magical Beast, then we need to go by the description of Magical Beasts on 311 of the MM. Within that description your 'Magical Beast' vermin gets Skill points. Also now that it is no longer considered 'Mindless' it gains feats as all monsters do from the entry on page 301 of the MM. I apologize for the confusion. Zephreum. Customer Service Representative This is still not totally correct. Becasue the celestial/fiendish template changes the type to Magical Beast (Augmented Vermin, Extraplanar) it now uses the Features of Vermin Type (in Red) and the Traits of the Magical Beast (in Purple), see Monster Manual page 291 Reading Templates: Magical Beast Type (Augmented Vermin, Extraplanar): Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits. Features: A magical beast (augmented Vermin) has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Fortitude saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Traits: A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. —Proficient with its natural weapons only. —Proficient with no armor. —Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe. Answer for the assertion that the Celestial/Fiendish template prohibits recalculating skills and feats based upon Type change, that is wrong. It says: "A celestial creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its TYPE changes." This does not cover feats in any shape or form, nor does it prohibit skill point recaculation when the Template (not the Type) changes the Intelligence score, see bellow: "Abilities: Same as the base creature, but Intelligence is at least 3." With Vermin you go from - to 3, that means that you now calculate according to the vermin features above "Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score." My two cents, Bryan Blumklotz AKA Saracenus RPGA#809563
Simpi 04-17-06, 02:51 PM	"A celestial creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its TYPE changes." This does not cover feats in any shape or form, nor does it prohibit skill point recaculation when the Template (not the Type) changes the Intelligence score, see bellow: And you are willfully ignoring this bit: A celestial creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here What abilities does Celestial template note? Smite evil, energy/damage resistance, darkvision and spell resistance. It is completely irrelevant if the type gives it intelligence or a type that can grant it feats, because template does not give it any or instructs to change the creature in any other way than template notes. Let's be honest here and switch to rant gear: Only reason this kind of wrangling is going on is because people want to squeeze more power out of Summon Monster Spell. Well, these people might argue that it grants feats and I as DM can argue they have no control over said feats because it summons a random creature. I am sure that celestial X is much more powerful in combat because of its Skill Focus (Basketweaving) feat. S.H, the guy from Naerie
Saracen 04-17-06, 03:33 PM	And you are willfully ignoring this bit: A celestial creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here What abilities does Celestial template note? Smite evil, energy/damage resistance, darkvision and spell resistance. It is completely irrelevant if the type gives it intelligence or a type that can grant it feats, because template does not give it any or instructs to change the creature in any other way than template notes. And that might be true. In fact my current Summon Monster statblocks were constructed in this manner. Howerver, the discussion here and on the Living Greyhawk mail list have made me re-examine my assumptions about this. Personally it complicates things if I have to figure skills and feats. And that brings us to what you are ignoring. The template specifically states on the Abilities line that Intelligence is a min. of 3. When you change change an ability you recalculate all those things based upon it. Your prohibition only works if the Intelligence change was from the change in Type, which in fact it isn't. [UPDATE 04/17/06 16:18] Customer Service Replied: Response (Zephreum H.) 04/17/2006 01:47 PM Bryan, After reviewing the entries cited, I can see no reason why you would not get feats and skills as any monster with 3 INT or higher does. Take Care! Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Customer (Bryan Blumklotz) 04/17/2006 11:31 AM Zephreum, No problem. My apologies for being so cranky in response. I agree with your response but I want to make sure that I am on solid ground because the debate has shifted to a specific entry in the Celestial/Fienish Template text and how it affects the use of the Template. “A celestial [or fiendish] creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its TYPE changes.” Since the Template itself changes the Intelligence score not the change in Type, then the modified Type Magical Beast (Augmented Vermin, Extraplanar) kicks in and it gets Skills. Becasue the celestial/fiendish template changes the type to Magical Beast (Augmented Vermin, Extraplanar) it now uses the Features of Vermin Type and the Traits of the Magical Beast, see Monster Manual page 291 Reading Templates: Magical Beast Type (Augmented Vermin, Extraplanar): Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits. Features: A magical beast (augmented Vermin) has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Fortitude saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Traits: A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. —Proficient with its natural weapons only. —Proficient with no armor. —Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe. No mater what, a Celestial or Fiendish Vermin will get feats. Thanks for your time, Bryan Blumklotz There you have it. People now have a response from WotC CustServ that can be used as a guideline in LG. There will be table variation as this is not the same as errata or an entry in the D&D FAQ. Let's be honest here and switch to rant gear: Only reason this kind of wrangling is going on is because people want to squeeze more power out of Summon Monster Spell. Well, these people might argue that it grants feats and I as DM can argue they have no control over said feats because it summons a random creature. I am sure that celestial X is much more powerful in combat because of its Skill Focus (Basketweaving) feat. S.H, the guy from Naerie Actually, this is not about wrangling more power at all. This is about having the correct statblocks to speed up play. I pre-stat all my summon monster/nature's ally, polymorph, wild shape stuff so that my judge doesn't have to wait for me to figure out what I can do. I want to have most correct block I can bring to the table to avoid judges getting pissy and assigning crap like Skill Focus (Basket Weaving) becuase they have a personal beef. If it turns out that skills and feats are in fact given to Celestial/Fiendish Vermin then I will come up with a logical progression that fits the type of Vermin it is. My first feat would be Iron Will to echo the lost mindlessness. Then awarness. Then ability focus (poision) or Improved Natural Attack. Etc.
opa 04-17-06, 04:15 PM	I bet Zephreum and the elves are having a great discussion over lunch.. even if..you .. believe... that they get feats and skills..what makes you think that ..you have any right to choose what feats and skills an ..NPC...summoned monster..would get... It would be up to a judge, to stat the monster whether you think you'd be being helpful or not by doing it in advance.. it wouldn't be up to you.. this being the case, and seeing that you would get extreme table variation on whether or not they get feats and skill points anyway..( I agree they don't) feel free to pursue an answer from the circle..and let us know what it is.. but leave the statting of npcs to the judge
Saracen 04-17-06, 06:14 PM	I bet Zephreum and the elves are having a great discussion over lunch.. even if..you .. believe... that they get feats and skills..what makes you think that ..you have any right to choose what feats and skills an ..NPC...summoned monster..would get... It would be up to a judge, to stat the monster whether you think you'd be being helpful or not by doing it in advance.. it wouldn't be up to you.. this being the case, and seeing that you would get extreme table variation on whether or not they get feats and skill points anyway..( I agree they don't) feel free to pursue an answer from the circle..and let us know what it is.. but leave the statting of npcs to the judge Wow, since you can't refute my posts on a rules or logic basis you choose to belittle me and WotC CustServ with feeble sarcasm. Your mother must be proud soooooo proud. It is not up to the judge to stat my monsters for me. If it were there would be a directive in the rules that a judge must bring a complete set of Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally statblocks (plus the varriations for the Augmented Summoning feat and the Animal Growth Spell) to the the table. As a frequent player, judge, and event organizer I find your assertion that the table judge is responsible for stating out "NPC" statblocks insane. By that logic I would have to stat out everyone's Cohorts, Familiars, Summoned Monsters/Natures Allies, Animal Companions, and Special Mounts. Please. I don't know what tables or region you play in, but most judges in the Duchy of Urnst would tell you to go get bent if you asked them to stat out summoned monsters for you. They have enough to worry about while running an adventure. I have yet to run into a judge that does not appreciate having all the summon monsters pre-stated when I arrive with my spell casters (I have even loaned them to the a few judges that had NPCs that could Summon but no statblocks in the adventure for it). As for pursuing this with the Circle, um why? The circle has plainly stated that D&D rules decisions are the perview of WotC. In fact if you bother to read your LGCS 596CY you will note that it directs us to bring all D&D rules questions to WotC CustServ through the online knowledgebase and to use their answers as a guideline for said rules. Unless the Circle is going to make a campaign specific rule about Celestial/Fiendish Vermin I am not going to waste their precious time. Same goes for the Triads. Tell you what, why don't you leave sarcasm and inciteful comentary to the professionals because obviously you are fighting way outside your weight class on this list. Bryan Blumklotz RPGA# 809563
opa 04-17-06, 11:01 PM	lol
Samwise 04-18-06, 12:51 AM	Why not consult the Monster Manual, page 293, Adding a Template Step-by-Step, on just how to do the augmenting? Let's see . . . "When you know the new Intelligence modifier, recalculate skill modifiers for any skills that use Intelligence as the key ability." Nothing about adding new skills, whether or not its status as Mindless changes. "Add any feats given by the template that are not already taken into account." Nothing about adding new feats not given by the template. So unless I missed something in that sequence, you don't get to add skills or feats to your celestial or fiendish vermin.
Saracen 04-18-06, 01:40 AM	Why not consult the Monster Manual, page 293, Adding a Template Step-by-Step, on just how to do the augmenting? Let's see . . . "When you know the new Intelligence modifier, recalculate skill modifiers for any skills that use Intelligence as the key ability." Nothing about adding new skills, whether or not its status as Mindless changes. "Add any feats given by the template that are not already taken into account." Nothing about adding new feats not given by the template. So unless I missed something in that sequence, you don't get to add skills or feats to your celestial or fiendish vermin. Samwise, I have consulted that section of the Monster Manual (MM). In fact lets bring in the other relevent sections of the MM. I will point you to the nonabilities listing in the glossary on page 312: "Intelligence: Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is MINDLESS, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks. Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses." [CAPS Emphasis by me, Bryan] So the definition of mindless is not a trait within a type, rather, it is a condition of having NO INTELLIGENCE. When the Template automatically bumps the Intelligence score of Vermin to 3, they are no longer mindless. Since Celestial Vermin are now Magical Beasts (Augmented Vermin) it uses the features section of Vermin Type which states if it has an Intelligence score it now gets skill points. Since the mindless condition was the only thing preventing the Vermin from receiving Feats, that kicks in as well. While the section you quoted does not explicitly say that this is the case, there is a strong case for it in the rules as written. There is a lot of rules connections that are not spelled out in just one section. It is foolish to point to one section and ignore the rest. Since this issue is not cut an dried I did what I was supposed to do, I consulted the Knowledge Base, D&D FAQ, Errata, rules from the Core books. When that did not resolve the question one way or another I sent email via the knowledgebase at WotC CustServ as per the directives of our campaign staff. They came back supporting the position that Celestial/Fiendish Vermin get Skills and Feats. Since WotC Cust Serv is not a rules authority you are free to ignore their ruling at tables you are judging (just like stuff in sage advice is just a guideline). If it ever becomes part of the D&D FAQ or Monster Manual errata then you and I will not have a choice but to follow that rules authority. I have made my case, I have followed the directives of our campaign and I have shared it with you all here. You don't have to like it, heck you don't have to agree with it. I am done with this topic. Good luck and Good gaming. Bryan Blumklotz AKA Saracenus RPGA# 809563
Samwise 04-18-06, 02:28 AM	So the definition of mindless is not a trait within a type, rather, it is a condition of having NO INTELLIGENCE. When the Template automatically bumps the Intelligence score of Vermin to 3, they are no longer mindless. Which is irrelevant. The question is not whether their status as Mindless or not has changed, it is whether they are now assigned skills and feats. Since Celestial Vermin are now Magical Beasts (Augmented Vermin) it uses the features section of Vermin Type which states if it has an Intelligence score it now gets skill points. Yes it does: For any additional Hit Dice it gains by being advanced. It does not gain retroactive skill points, as strongly suggested under Reading a Template: "Some templates change how skill points are determined, but this change usually only affects skill points gained after the template is applied." Since the mindless condition was the only thing preventing the Vermin from receiving Feats, that kicks in as well. Again correct, again only for Hit gained by being advanced, again according to Reading a Template: "Feats: Since most templates do not change the number of Hit Dice a creature has, a template will not change the number of feats the creature has. Some templates grant one of more bonus feats." While the section you quoted does not explicitly say that this is the case, there is a strong case for it in the rules as written. There is a lot of rules connections that are not spelled out in just one section. It is foolish to point to one section and ignore the rest. Which is why I didn't ignore the rest. I went and checked for other references that might clarify exactly what to do to advance a creature. And taking all of those together, while are you correct that a celestial or fiendish vermin will get skills points and feats, they will only do so if you advance them, not when you add the template. Since WotC Cust Serv is not a rules authority you are free to ignore their ruling at tables you are judging (just like stuff in sage advice is just a guideline). If it ever becomes part of the D&D FAQ or Monster Manual errata then you and I will not have a choice but to follow that rules authority. But there already is a rules authority - the actual text of the Monster Manual. And since that has precedence, everyone has to use that over anything else.
Mommy was an Orc 04-18-06, 10:13 AM	Since WotC Cust Serv is not a rules authority you are free to ignore their ruling at tables you are judging (just like stuff in sage advice is just a guideline). If it ever becomes part of the D&D FAQ or Monster Manual errata then you and I will not have a choice but to follow that rules authority. I have made my case, I have followed the directives of our campaign and I have shared it with you all here. You don't have to like it, heck you don't have to agree with it. This is a pretty classic case of how to ask Cust Serv the wrong question and get the right answer back. Do non-mindless Vermin who without a Template have an Intelligence score get skills and feats? Yes - the answer from CustServ. Do Vermin who get their intelligence via a Template get skills and feats? No. The page that Samwise references. There's some huge game balance issues that come up, even if you assign absolutely worthless feats to a monster - most of the Vermin tend to have high hit dice totals. In any case, I'd also like to point out that Summoning Fiendish things - say fiendish hawks as an example - is an evil act as Summon Monster becomes a spell of the evil type and should get you reported to your triad and a marking on your AR. If a PC performs an evil act, warn the player that you consider it evil at your first opportunity. If character acts regardless of the warning make a note on the AR. Also send this information to the local triad. Triads compile these reports to determine if the player needs to be removed from play. See Chapter Nine.
Saracen 04-18-06, 11:07 AM	In any case, I'd also like to point out that Summoning Fiendish things - say fiendish hawks as an example - is an evil act as Summon Monster becomes a spell of the evil type and should get you reported to your triad and a marking on your AR. So when you sit at my table and cast Summon Monster bringing a Lawful, Chaotic, and/or Good creature can I mark your AR because your alignment is going to suddenly change to one of those alignments? If the answer is no, then your argument just fell apart. Either all alignment descriptors cause alignment shifts or none do. BTW, the LGCS quote is a general statement on evil, not a directive to impose your view of [evil] descriptor spells on the rest of us. If you can find a D&D rules quote that states casting an [evil] descriptor spell is explicitly an evil act then you might have a case. However that still makes [lawful], [chaotic], and [good] spells in the same boat. At my tables (and most that I play at) it is the intent, not the spell descriptor that prompts a warning about evil, not the [evil] descriptor. By that definition someone fireballing civillians gets an evil act on their sheet, just as someone who sicks celestial creatures on innocents. However, if someone summons a fiendish creature to save an innocent's life is not penalized for just using a spell. Nice try. Bryan Blumklotz AKA Saracenus RPGA# 809563
opa 04-18-06, 12:14 PM	Well, can't believe I have been drawn in to responding but... I had to clarify a few things.. me-"I bet Zephreum and the elves are having a great discussion over lunch.." you-"Wow, since you can't refute my posts on a rules or logic basis you choose to belittle me and WotC CustServ with feeble sarcasm. Your mother must be proud soooooo proud." Ok perhaps my sarcasm was a bit feeble, I had hoped it would be understood as sympathy for the WOTC representative not belittling him. I refferred to them as elves, lovingly, as the little unseen helpers at WOTC. The response referencing my mother indicates to me an unexplainable need to escalate the discussion to the level of personal attacks. you-"So now we have established that mindless is not dependent on Type we can go back to my original question that you did not answer. Further reading for you before you send me crap like your previous response:" It was quotes from your posts like this that spurred me to post originally, your attitude towards the WOTC representatives was horrid. I meant to insinuate that it is attitudes like yours that become the talk around the watercooler for people in customer service. You are a grand example of the way people color their questions to CS to illicit a certain response. you-"Tell you what, why don't you leave sarcasm and inciteful comentary to the professionals because obviously you are fighting way outside your weight class on this list." Now this statement is absolutely fabulous, You my friend know nothing of me, and making assumptions of any sort is ludicrous. You are a proud "event organizer" and judge. Great! We all thank you for arranging games. I could list out my play experience, writing credits, and show you my master level GM card too, but the reality is this is the web, and none of that means much because it can't be substantiated, to assume that you "outweigh" me is absolutely laughable, and ..if .. you consider yourself, one of the "professionals", you seemed to misplace your professionalism. By the way you spelled commentary wrong... ( ;) sorry another attempt at feeble sarcasm) you-"So when you sit at my table and cast Summon Monster bringing a Lawful, Chaotic, and/or Good creature can I mark your AR because your alignment is going to suddenly change to one of those alignments? ...If the answer is no, then your argument just fell apart. Either all alignment descriptors cause alignment shifts or none do.However, if someone summons a fiendish creature to save an innocent's life is not penalized for just using a spell." I don't recall anyone saying "alignment change". It certainly would be an alignment deviation. You couldn't even do it as a cleric.."page 33 PHB". Each region in Living Greyhawk handles this issue a bit different, I am lucky enough to live in a region that using any form of necromantic magic, or consorting with any evil creatures from other lands is a crime. The problem with equating the evil descriptor with the others is that none of the others, get your character yanked from play. Yes, a CN mage casting a spell with the law descriptor, should have it marked on his AR as an alignment breech, is it done ..no.. mainly because it doesn't matter much in game. I certainly would and do, mark use of a spell descriptor that would be an alignment deviation for a character that has a class that is alignment dependent. If I judged a table with a character that was a mage with a paladin level, and he cast "False life" or "protection from law", I probably would advise the player that I would consider it an alignment issue, and if he did it anyway, I would record it on his AR , and report it to the triad, as instructed. Now, let the debate continue.. and please if you would like to make a personal attack on me, send me a private message it's more appropriate and "professional" if we take it offlist, and don't take up everyone else's time.
Mommy was an Orc 04-18-06, 12:51 PM	First off, let's quote PHB page 32 on clerical spell casting: "However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs." As an example, a Good cleric cannot cast an Evil spell, because that is opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs. A Good Wizard has the option of casting an Evil spell, but that doesn't mean it still isn't opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs. It isn't a question of whether or not your alignment changes or not. Does the LGCS say to mark someone's AR and contact their triad if they proceed to do something Lawful, Chaotic, or Good after being warned? No. Evil, yes. You are casting an evil spell. Are you acting in this case? Yes. You are doing something for which you did evil even if the overall benefit perhaps is good. Have you disregarded being warned by the DM? If we've gotten this far, yes. And as to the question of intent - you always have a choice to summon different monsters - no one put a gun to your head and forced you to summon something fiendish to save an innocent. So when you sit at my table and cast Summon Monster bringing a Lawful, Chaotic, and/or Good creature can I mark your AR because your alignment is going to suddenly change to one of those alignments? If the answer is no, then your argument just fell apart. Either all alignment descriptors cause alignment shifts or none do. BTW, the LGCS quote is a general statement on evil, not a directive to impose your view of [evil] descriptor spells on the rest of us. If you can find a D&D rules quote that states casting an [evil] descriptor spell is explicitly an evil act then you might have a case. However that still makes [lawful], [chaotic], and [good] spells in the same boat. At my tables (and most that I play at) it is the intent, not the spell descriptor that prompts a warning about evil, not the [evil] descriptor. By that definition someone fireballing civillians gets an evil act on their sheet, just as someone who sicks celestial creatures on innocents. However, if someone summons a fiendish creature to save an innocent's life is not penalized for just using a spell. Nice try. Bryan Blumklotz AKA Saracenus RPGA# 809563
Saracen 04-18-06, 02:01 PM	Erik, Good to know whom I am talking to now. As for being professional, you immediately understood my intent of my response. Yours, on the other hand, required a long clarification to "get it". I will take my spelling mistake over your unclear intent any day of the week. As for being pissy to your initial post, no apologies... you deserved it. I apologized to Zephrem in my follow-up email because I was genuinely sorry for being cranky at him. Have a great life, Bryan Blumklotz AKA Saracenus RPGA# 809563
Saracen 04-18-06, 02:43 PM	First off, let's quote PHB page 32 on clerical spell casting: "However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs." I knew you were going trot this one out. I asked for an explicit rule that casting an [evil] alignment descriptor spell was an evil act and you bring up a D&D rules mechanic that prevents clerics and druids from casting spells with alignment descriptors opposed to their alignment. There is nothing in this sentence that says that it is in fact an evil act to cast the spell with the [evil] descriptor. Let's take the leap to your assumption... As an example, a Good cleric cannot cast an Evil spell, because that is opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs. A Good Wizard has the option of casting an Evil spell, but that doesn't mean it still isn't opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs. So, if I parse your statement correctly casting an [evil] alignment descriptor spell is not evil unto itself but it might conflict with my moral alignment of a spell caster. So, taking your words as a guide a CG, NG, or LG spellcaster would be in violation of their alignment and should have an evil act put on their character sheet. Where as CN, N, LN spell caster has no moral compunctions about [evil] descriptor spells and would not be penalized. It isn't a question of whether or not your alignment changes or not. Does the LGCS say to mark someone's AR and contact their triad if they proceed to do something Lawful, Chaotic, or Good after being warned? No. Evil, yes. Now you have truly leaped beyond the rules as written. You have not established a clear cut D&D rule that casting any [evil] descriptor spell is in and of itself an evil act. Your argument is tied to the alignment of the caster being opposed to it. Now you want to write evil act on the sheet of anyone casting an [evil] alignment spell. By this leap you are basically telling people that no matter what your alignment is you secretly have the Good alignment and you to be punished for casting such spells. You are casting an evil spell. Are you acting in this case? Yes. You are doing something for which you did evil even if the overall benefit perhaps is good. Have you disregarded being warned by the DM? If we've gotten this far, yes. And as to the question of intent - you always have a choice to summon different monsters - no one put a gun to your head and forced you to summon something fiendish to save an innocent. Actually, we don’t get this far. I would have asked you before we started a table what your stance was on [alignment] descriptor spells and when you gave me this answer I would either A) Contact the Sr. Judge to have you overruled or B) Walked away from the table. You have every right to rule your table this way because the Circle will not provide guidelines on what constitutes and evil act, unlike the Living Arcanis campaign that let their judges know what is evil and what is not. I have every right not to play under your “interpretation” of the rules. Fortunately for me, even if you did manage to mark my AR for such a thing the Duchy of Urnst Triad would ignore it. If you kept emailing them with instances of “evil” being committed by spell casters casting [evil] descriptor spells you would quickly be told to stop doing it, it’s a waste of their time. I am done with this topic now, you have showed me nothing new or conclusive on this issue, just the same tired Manichaean outlook and that evil stains the soul more than good, and forget law or chaos. Bryan Blumklotz AKA Saracenus RPGA#809563
CSHunt68 04-18-06, 04:14 PM	You see? These boards CAN be useful. :) You know who to avoid at conventions ... :-/ Regards, Sean Hunt
JohnduBois 04-19-06, 05:39 PM	Regardless of whether you plan on an [evil] spell being an evil act, the LGCS has specific wording to ensure the player's safety. The DM is required to warn you that an act is evil and give you a chance to reconsider. Therefore, while table variation exists and may be frustrating, it won't get you stupid crap written on your AR unless you know beforehand. Also, my personal feeling is that casting an evil spell is not an evil act. It would be unlikely that the Circle would allow evil Limited spells on ARs if they are. I know that people disagree with me, and I accept their disagreement. But nothing short of an official response or a superb explanation (e.g. one not rehashing all the old arguments) will change my mind on the issue. John
rook1138 04-19-06, 07:45 PM	Also, my personal feeling is that casting an evil spell is not an evil act. John especially given the amount of pretty darn evil spells that lack the descriptor, and some pretty non evil ones that have it. I'm sorry, but what about deathwatch is evil save from the description text of "the sight of the undead". IMO it's main purpose is for the party cleric to triage the party in a fight, especially when multiple people are down and the cleric isn't sure which one is closest to bleeding out. :-p Not to mention a decent disguised undead and construct detector... This isn't star wars. powers are simply evil or not evil (or good/lawful/chaotic). just some are viewed by specific gods and they say "no, someone who worships me just can't cast this, cuz I think it's icky". Just like how the FAQ FINALLY cleared up that a coupde-grace is NOT EVIL (pg 37), I hope the spell description one will be cleared up eventually too. We'll see though. But anyway, this is all far removed from the original topic, and has been discussed at length else were... as for celestial vermin, I haven't seen a real rules argument to side with the "NO" camp, however I would like to point out that since a normal vermin has no listed skills, all skills would be considered cross-class I think. As for feats and skill assignments, I'd probably just go with a similar hunting style animal if there is one and go along those lines. Matt The instigator of this mess.
Mommy was an Orc 04-20-06, 01:27 PM	Just like how the FAQ FINALLY cleared up that a coupde-grace is NOT EVIL (pg 37), I hope the spell description one will be cleared up eventually too. We'll see though. That's not likely to happen - it has been cleared up, except the book that does it isn't fully LG legal and that's the place they chose to define what is and what is not an evil act. The only way it ends up in the FAQ is to specify that it is evil. The core rules say nothing explicit about what is and what is not an evil act. Torturing a peasant with the intent to heal them if they're innocent isn't explicitly an evil act. We all know it is, but it is up to the DM to say so, just as it is up to the DM for every other act. Page 8 of Book of Vile Darkness explicitly specifies that the act of casting an evil spell or summoning a fiend is an evil act, although not an especially bad one. They proceed to describe all the other acts that could be evil there as well. Despite the book not being fully LG legal, the writer of PHB 3.0(where [evil] descriptor was originally defined) and BoVD are the same person. Usually, one can claim that we don't know what the writer's intent was. But here we know exactly what his intent was - that the act of casting a spell with the [evil] descriptor is indeed an evil act.
rook1138 04-20-06, 02:09 PM	I went ahead and emailed CustServ as well, just cuz (and knowing they aren't LG legal or whatever)... Discussion Thread Response (Sam S.) 04/20/2006 10:44 AM Hi there Matthew, 1. You are correct. All celestial or fiendish vermin have all skills as cross-class skills unless the DM assigns it to have class skills that make sense to him. 2. Correct. The DM determines the creature's feats. 3. Correct, because they are now Magical Beasts rather than Vermin. Take Care and Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Sam Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST This was in response to the questions worded thusly The celestial and fiendish templates make the base creature have a min int of 3. Since these are inherent templates, they effect the creature from birth and aren't applied after some time (in the "how it came to be" aspect of things). Now, most vermin have no int, which, when looking under the "non-ability" definition means they do not gain skill ranks or feats. So, given the following rules, would a celestial/fiendish vermin gain skill ranks and feats? 1) According to the MM, if a vermin HAS an int score, it gains 2+int skill points per HD (x4 at 1st HD), min 1. So if it has an int from the get go, thanks to the inherent template, it should gain 4 ranks at 1st HD and 1 for the other HD, correct (since these are based off the Vermin type, not the Magical Beast type that the template changes the creature to, since the templates specifically say not to recalc skills off of the change in type). Of note though, when normally selecting skills off monster HD, any skills they have ranks in are considered class skills, and since vermin have no listed skill ranks, all skills would be considered cross-class I would assume (let me know if this is a mistaken assumption). 2) if the "non-ability" for intelligence no longer applies from the creatures birth, it should be gaining feats normally, correct? And feats would be starting with it's first HD since it's an inherent template, not an acquired one, correct? 3) also, since they now have an int, they would lose the mindless quality, correct? If the above 3 points are in fact false, can you please explain why? so according to them, they gain feats and skills, all skills are cross-class (which really, I don't mind), and the burden is on the GM to pick them (which I kinda figured). However, if I feel that the GM is being stoopid about the feats and skills picked and not ones that actually make sense for the critter, I'll add that GM to my short list of people not to associate with and leave (someone mentioned skill focus: basket weaving?), unless they are doing it humorously, in which case it's ok. If the GM says "it's only CustServ and not LG legal", then no sweat, and I won't have an issue with the judge, since it's his right. If the GM says "pick what you think makes sense, but I get final say", no sweat either, since it follows the letter, spirit, and sense of the rules as they are written in the D&D 3.5 rules set. Of course, I generally won't need to worry about this, since my only summoner is currently 2nd level, and my 5th string PC, so won't be advancing all that much. So I'll be happy with my badger and fire beetle :-p But man, I'm noting this for my home game, authoring, and judging in the future. :P Matt
Fwib 02-05-07, 04:14 PM	Dunno if it has been mentioned elsewhere, but you people are gonna love this: :) In Complete Scoundrel, the Malconvoker PrC has a class feature which allows the casting of conjuration [evil] spells to those usually forbidden them and also prevents their use from threatening to change your alignment.
Mommy was an Orc 02-05-07, 05:39 PM	Dunno if it has been mentioned elsewhere, but you people are gonna love this: :) In Complete Scoundrel, the Malconvoker PrC has a class feature which allows the casting of conjuration [evil] spells to those usually forbidden them and also prevents their use from threatening to change your alignment. Yeah, Sam's evil necromancer is already planning to try to take it. I don't know why - he's already evil ;)
Japangirl 02-05-07, 05:42 PM	Dunno if it has been mentioned elsewhere, but you people are gonna love this: :) In Complete Scoundrel, the Malconvoker PrC has a class feature which allows the casting of conjuration [evil] spells to those usually forbidden them and also prevents their use from threatening to change your alignment. Somehow I doubt that PrC will become LG legal anytime soon.
Fwib 02-06-07, 08:47 AM	Yeah, Sam's evil necromancer is already planning to try to take it. I don't know why - he's already evil ;)Malconvoker is non-evil only.Somehow I doubt that PrC will become LG legal anytime soon.Why not? Non-evil only. Or does LG have some hatred for summoners? ======= My intention with my post above was to point out that despite the lack of a rule (in the core books - since there is that bit in BoVD) saying that casting [evil] spells are evil acts, along comes a class feature strongly implying that this is the case, stirring the pot of discussion nicely... :)
Mommy was an Orc 02-06-07, 09:56 AM	Malconvoker is non-evil only. His character sheet claims he's not evil. People who know Sam know better. ;)
Alpha_Nerd 02-06-07, 10:41 AM	Ok, since the thread has already been necromanced, I guess I'll try to summarize it so I know if I got it right. Since there are Vermin with an int score that have skill points, when you give a mindless Vermin the celestial template you give them the skill points an intelligent Vermin would have. The wording in the celestial template is suppose to mean that you don't adjust the monsters skill points because of the type change to magical beast, not the int change. Also, by giving them an int score they also get feats. Has there been any other official rulings either way since april 06?
Japangirl 02-06-07, 01:04 PM	Non-evil only. Or does LG have some hatred for summoners? RPGA has some serious problems with evil flavor, even if the requirements aren't to be evil or the class doesn't turn you evil. Acolyte of the Skin would be an example, I think.
Samwise 02-06-07, 01:39 PM	His character sheet claims he's not evil. People who know Sam know better. ;) Ah! But me being Evil isn't against the rules. So as long as my PC is Neutral, he is safe.