Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mithrus 02-04-06, 10:33 PM	I am curious what people think about simply removing sundering entirely from the LG campaign. Restrict Improved/Ranged Sunder feats, and not allow most items to be destroyed. The obvious exception needs to be constructs and animated objects, as these are more "monster" than "object". D&D already ignores the issue of item maintenance as a whole (some exceptions do exist). Smashing fragile objects could be ruled as automatic, but only available outside of combat. This restriction would still allow for other tactics, such as disarm or snatch. IMO, 3.5 did not have enough thought put into the whole sundering/repair/hardness/HPs business, considering that most items and matierials do not have any rating for hardness or HPs.
Objulen 02-04-06, 10:45 PM	Why would Sundering be removed? It's a legitimate tactic in combat.
Mortepierre 02-05-06, 03:13 AM	Why on Oerth would you want to remove it :confused: Generally, those is favor of such an action either don't want the AR's loot to be wrecked because the "tank" of their team went sunder-happy OR are angry because some monster sundered one of their precious items during a past adventure. So, I am curious to hear about your justification.
Munkwunk 02-05-06, 03:24 PM	First of all, Sundering (and Improved Sunder) are core rules and therefore require a *large* amount of thought before simply restricting them. Sure, there are a few core spells (like Permanency) which are Restricted, but those don't change the outcome of play to drastic effects (the result being balance and ease of tracking changes between modules). Second, well, what Mortepierre said. :) As someone who uses Improved Sunder (and Combat Brute, which would also have to be restricted if Improved Sunder were take from the game), I can attest to the fact that sundering objects is just another part of the game. The only time problems arise form it are when people berate the sunderer about destroying treasure, or when people get upset that a sunder-happy mod writer destroyed all of the PC's valuable treasures. These things are emotional responses that have no real game-breaking effects. If there were some way to compensate people for their loss (such as an easier way to repair broken magic items or retrieve lost treasure), then the problems caused by sundering would disappear.
kenobi65 02-05-06, 04:58 PM	These things are emotional responses that have no real game-breaking effects. Well, except that treasure in LG is very stringently awarded, and, until now, the rules that allowed repair of a sundered item in D&D weren't generally allowed to be used in LG. Thus, losing a magic weapon to a sunder could have a significant, and not easily ameliorated, impact on the power level of that PC. If there were some way to compensate people for their loss (such as an easier way to repair broken magic items or retrieve lost treasure), then the problems caused by sundering would disappear. I haven't read the entire draft, but it does sound like that's now being addressed.
haferka 02-05-06, 06:05 PM	I would prefer to see a "gentalmans rule" in the mod authors document that denys the use of "sundering creatures" for the shear purpose of sundering PC wealth. If sundering makes sense for an NPC tactic... ok. I just dont want to see an UBER sunderer NPC who takes joy in sundering equipment... with absolutly no other goal, including saving his own ass. I have not personally witnessed this occuring, but I have had tales passed down to me from someone who had it happen. The creature was built to sunder, and did it from round one till it was dead. If never considered running from combat, even tho it was impossible for it to actually damage ANY of the PCs at the table. It had no hope of survival. In the same situation... anyone else would have ran away. (after 1 or 2 sundering attempts).
Iswald 02-05-06, 10:27 PM	Originally Posted by Munkwunk If there were some way to compensate people for their loss (such as an easier way to repair broken magic items or retrieve lost treasure), then the problems caused by sundering would disappear. I haven't read the entire draft, but it does sound like that's now being addressed. There are some issues with repairing items that really make it difficult to find people to repair armor and weapons. It is speculated that simply having the ability to get items repaired will increase the probability that authors will include sundering in NPC tactics. This is all discussed in greater detail in the "Repairing magic items" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=579645) thread.
Munkwunk 02-05-06, 10:31 PM	Thus, losing a magic weapon to a sunder could have a significant, and not easily ameliorated, impact on the power level of that PC. Right, I understand that. But a simple solution, like the one presented by Haferka, would help. I once fought a Death Knight (or something like that) who had Improved Sunder, and it was written in to his combat description that he use it. Now, the table that I was playing at didn't know this until later, because *I* ended up breaking *his* weapon first. A friend who played the same mod at a different table had his greataxe busted in two, though. Luckily it was a mere +1 greataxe at the time. I haven't encountered monsters who specifically try to do nothing but sunder objects, but I understand that the implications of such a thing would be far-reaching. Still, eliminating sundering entirely from the game doesn't make much sense either. If PCs had an easier way of repairing items (like allowing NPCs to repair them, rather than having to find other PCs with the requisite feats and spells), then that problem could be somewhat sidestepped. We'd still have to pay for half the item's cost again, which can be very expensive in may cases (and thus, still makes NPC sunderers quite nasty), but at least our items (which perhaps were bought with Access: Adventure) wouldn't be permanantly destroyed. On the other hand, we *also* need a way for PCs to be able to sunder ithout losing too much of the loot gained from the adventure, since wealth in LG is so limited anyway. If we even got *half* the gold value of the item (since we may be able to find someone to sell it to who could then repair it) it'd give those of us who do use Sundering as a valid means of self-defense to receive a little less punishment by fellow players. (In the above-noted Death Knight scene, I got the standard "Awww, you're breaking treasure!" routine. Little did they know it could have cost them all a *lot* more money if that guy had gotten to break their items.)
Mithrus 02-05-06, 10:58 PM	Generally, those is favor of such an action either don't want the AR's loot to be wrecked because the "tank" of their team went sunder-happy OR are angry because some monster sundered one of their precious items during a past adventure. (Disclaimer: Sorry for the length, but I have a lot to say...) Fortunately, I suppose, I am not in either category. Perhaps it is my current mood, but your respose seems more like a flame than anything else (did that make you feel better!?). While I did almost lose a weapon from sundering, I posted this idea primarily as a response since sundering is a hotly discussed topic at the moment. One of the biggest turn-offs for me in any RPG is to have it built around time sinks. Granted, that is pretty much every MMORPG on the market, sigh. I had hoped to get away from that with LG. D&D in it's nature is high-fantasy, where the rules were to assist with realism, but realism takes shotgun to keeping the rules as simple and straight-foreward as possible. For those computer techies out there, D&D is RISC, not CISC. For CISC, see Rolemaster... Besides sundering, item damage/repair is largely an assumed function in D&D. How many DMs check to see if a character carries a whetstone in order to keep his blade sharp? Sundering is a mechanic that was not built as a fundamental aspect of the game, but more likely added late in the development cycle when playtesters wanted rules for destroying items (yes, this is purely speculative on my part). There is evidence of this by how often hardness/HPs of items are omitted in the new books getting released. It is just something that doesn't get remembered most of the time. Now, what happens when someone dies in D&D/LG? They loose a level, and with it the associated experience (and most often 5450+gps). Now, in this case, they get to repeat this level again, and earn some of that gold back. What happens when they loose that really nice item that they've built up over multiple levels? It's gone. Kaput. Seeya. All that once-only access used up and likely-to-never-be-seen-again. Now, to get this item back (pre-5.0 LGCS changes), they would need to start saving up again and hope to get access in the future (good luck). And even still, the repair costs essentially sets the character back so they are now even more likely to die since they can't upgrade their equipment (they just spent their "future" gold to stay where they are). LG is far too cash-poor pre-10th level to have to deal with "money sinks" resulting from sundered items. Post-LGCS 5.0, I think getting an item repaired reliably will require a "mule" character, but we will see I suppose. Quick example: a +2 weapon costs 8000+. This is easily 10+ adventures at APL 6 (I doubt you can get full gold EVERY time). Even with the repair rules, the character needs to spend another 2000+gps to just keep their item (2+ mods worth). That's 2000gp they can't use further enhance their character, but the content keeps getting harder. If this happens more than once, the character will almost assuredly die, and this would pretty much be a blessing at this point.
solbergb 02-05-06, 11:03 PM	I would not like Sunder to be removed. Aside from the weirdness of it from an incharacter point of view, from a practical standpoint the most useful things to sunder are rarely weapons and armor. Spell comp pouches, holy symbols, manacles, stuff like that needs a mechanic for destruction. From a "how often does this really happen" standpoint.... I've seen a few encounters with things like Baubau demons and those column thingies, where if you hit them you need to make a save or have weapon damaged or destroyed. Plus one rust monster encounter. We didn't lose any weapons in any of those encounters, either because those who engaged them had good saving throws, or those with big brains called out the threat and we found other means of killing them. I've seen several sunder-oriented character NPC's. Tool-using NPC's tend to be rather vulnerable to PC tactical tricks...in about a half dozen encounters I've seen exactly one item sundered - a masterwork weapon easily fixed with make whole. Most of the time, the NPC fighter type didn't even get an opportunity to sunder anything, the rest of the time he got at most one shot, and didn't quite succeed (wherupon party changed tactics to get those with sudnerable stuff away from him and dogpiled the bad guy as primary threat). Sunder-oriented monsters? I've had exactly one encounter like that, with a really big earth elemental that was kicking us around. After a round or so of normal combat it just started cycling through its feats (we got normal attacks, full power attacks, then awsome blow, then a sunder on the weapon that hurt it most). That's the one time I've seen a nice weapon destroyed. The player took it better than I would have :) A raise would have been cheaper, not to mention the access issues - he'd done a neat thing with his class/spell abilities to get the most out of the item. Either he had another source, or he honestly was very mature :) Still..in general a single sunder can't cripple a character, unless he has invested a vast percentage of his wealth into the weapon. It hurts, it hurts much worse than most other things that don't remove you from the campaign, but it is something survivable. Only multiple sunders (like a Disjunction) are liable to make somebody tear up his character sheet. I don't think it is anywhere near as likely an occurance as an unrecoverable death, so sunder as a mechanic isn't on my radar screen of things that need to be banned.
solbergb 02-05-06, 11:08 PM	[QUOTE=Mithruscan't upgrade they equipment. LG is far too cash-poor pre-10th level to have to deal with "money sinks" resulting from sundered items. .[/QUOTE] Pre tenth level I didn't have a single item worth more than 5k on my fighter type. My archer might have an 8k bow by then. Some level 9s I've seen have 18k weapons, but that's pushing it. My point is...most lowbies aren't hurt much by a sunder, because they're still working through mostly standard access stuff, or the bottom tier of "access" stuff that tends to show up over and over (eg, +2 cloak of resistance). The most vulnerable are physical combat types like archers and melee who aren't getting most of their damage from their own attributes, feats and class abilities, but are relying on an expensive weapon to contribute normally. These guys have an 8k weapon at level 6, and an 18k weapon by level 9, instead of spreading that wealth around on a couple +2 attribute items or armor+1 type stuff, or at level 9, 4k-5k items. Finesse fighters and low strength archers that are not rogues are most at risk. My opinion may be somewhat biased - I don't play any characters in that category..my warrior types tend to be strong even without any "stuff" and my spellcasters of course aren't equipment-dependent at all...they're better with stuff, but have a fairly high base power without it.
chrispedersen 02-05-06, 11:20 PM	I would prefer to see a "gentalmans rule" in the mod authors document that denys the use of "sundering creatures" for the shear purpose of sundering PC wealth. If sundering makes sense for an NPC tactic... ok. I just dont want to see an UBER sunderer NPC who takes joy in sundering equipment... with absolutly no other goal, including saving his own ass. I have not personally witnessed this occuring, but I have had tales passed down to me from someone who had it happen. The creature was built to sunder, and did it from round one till it was dead. If never considered running from combat, even tho it was impossible for it to actually damage ANY of the PCs at the table. It had no hope of survival. In the same situation... anyone else would have ran away. (after 1 or 2 sundering attempts). Fire Giants have improved sunder, iirc. And the strength to break almost anything. Rust Monsters. I'm against outlawing it - but you don't have to be a sadist author to easily have perfectly horrid sunderers. C
Mithrus 02-05-06, 11:26 PM	Wow, I couldn't even edit my post before getting replies :) My overall point is that due to structure of LG, the whole sundering concept is in favor of the NPCs, and is not balanced. Is it realistic? Sure. But loosing even a 4k item at APL 6 sets you have 5 mods. In the long term (10th+), it's trivial, but recovering from it is usually VERY painful. I play LG to have fun, and "winning" without challenge is NOT fun. Loosing a rare item that I can't ever get again based on access is NOT fun. Solving a challenging situation by luck and/or skill can be VERY fun. I have not had that many teammates running sunder-minded characters, so I guess I don't perceive it as a valid "tactic". Most of the time, I am encountering critters that are using natural weapons, so PC-based-sundering becomes moot, thank you undead, constructs, and evil outsiders with claws.
Elfen_Archangel 02-05-06, 11:50 PM	Wow, I couldn't even edit my post before getting replies :) My overall point is that due to structure of LG, the whole sundering concept is in favor of the NPCs, and is not balanced. Is it realistic? Sure. But loosing even a 4k item at APL 6 sets you have 5 mods. In the long term (10th+), it's trivial, but recovering from it is usually VERY painful. I play LG to have fun, and "winning" without challenge is NOT fun. Loosing a rare item that I can't ever get again based on access is NOT fun. Solving a challenging situation by luck and/or skill can be VERY fun. I have not had that many teammates running sunder-minded characters, so I guess I don't perceive it as a valid "tactic". Most of the time, I am encountering critters that are using natural weapons, so PC-based-sundering becomes moot, thank you undead, constructs, and evil outsiders with claws. Personally, I dislike the idea of PC A, B, C, and D charge NPC A and B, the PC's flank the NPC's and they stand there for a few rounds trading blows until the NPC's fall. Even playing up in most mods, I haven't found that mods are overly dangerous. Perhaps sundering beasties would make it so parties would avoid the mentality of run in and beat on something until it dies. Perhaps spring attack is better than power attack in these instances. Or if something looks like it might sunder and you're all that worried, ready an action to move away. I honestly don't see the validity of the posts about banning sunder. What I'm getting is that people want the fights to be challenging, but without any actual danger to their master item logsheet. In each mod you play, you have the possibility of losing your character and everything on it, depending on what you do. In a TPK, you just have the possibility of losing all of your eq and having to invoke the charity of friends. At least with sunder you're only losing 1 or 2 things. Matthew Schad
haferka 02-06-06, 01:33 AM	...In a TPK, you just have the possibility of losing all of your eq and having to invoke the charity of friends. At least with sunder you're only losing 1 or 2 things. Matthew Schad Yes, but in a TPK. you are facing an encounter that is overwhelming. A sundering encounter can occur with creatures that have ABSOLUTLY zero hope of ever defeating you. Like I said before, the proble is 2 fold: 1) Educate authors to NOT create encounters whos sole goal is to sunder wealth. 2) Charity of Friends needs to have a longer lasting effect. Once invoked, charity continues to roll in, untill the character has recovered ALL the wealth that was lost (actual cost they spent, not its value... in case it was crafted). Basicly this allows them to earn gp over the cap untill they have earned back ALL the gp they lost. This allows them to slowly aquire their wealth back, but still posses a serious threat. Personally, I would prefer to see some mods where a team of NPCs disarm.. and use the PCs weapons against them. :)
Munkwunk 02-06-06, 02:26 AM	I have not had that many teammates running sunder-minded characters, so I guess I don't perceive it as a valid "tactic". Here are some first-hand experiences with PC sundering, just to give you an idea of how tactical it can be. For the record: My Barbarian is currently 10th level with both Improved Sunder and Combat Brute. Things I have sundered that have potentially saved lives: * Wounding Kama in the hands of a Monk with Flurry of Blows. That's 3 CON damage per round that we weren't taking. * At least a bazillion (really, that many!) poisoned shortswords from assassins. Many of these were CON-damage poisons of varying potency. Note that when a player takes Con damage, they not only come that much closer to Con-death, but also HP death, since they immediately lose the associated hit points. * A weapon in the hands of another creature with Improved Sunder, who would have broken our own team's weapons. * Giant weapons. My character is built around destroying the weapons of Giants. This drops their damage from ~3d6+STR*1.5 to 1d6+STR. As a Barbarian with low AC who is likely going to be hit by a Giant anyway, this is a significant difference. * Mundane weapons in general, usually from the Barbarians of the group who are Power Attacking the heck out of our allies. No greatxe? No two-handed power attack. Barbarians get totally neutered without their big weapons (I know this from experience). So, you see, by using Improved Sunder / Combat Brute as a valid combat tactic, I prevent a *lot* of deadly damage from being inflicted upon my party. Regretfully, half the party doesn't realize just how much damage I've prevented, so I get the standard "Hey, you're breaking the loot!" routine. I understand that LG isn't heavy on the gold rewards, so I can understand people being a bit upset if those items end up getting marked off of access and don't contribute to the module's overall gold count. In the long run, a few GP here and there aren't going to be as much as the cost of several Raise Deads. I do, however, believe that my choice to sunder shouldn't deny the party access on the AR, since access can be difficult to come by, is uncertain (how do we know if that particular weapon is going to show up on the AR?), and often clouds player judgement.
Mortepierre 02-06-06, 04:37 AM	Fortunately, I suppose, I am not in either category. Perhaps it is my current mood, but your respose seems more like a flame than anything else (did that make you feel better!?). While I did almost lose a weapon from sundering, I posted this idea primarily as a response since sundering is a hotly discussed topic at the moment. It wasn't a flame though I'll admit I could have phrased it so that it appeared a bit less adverse. The thing is, your first post didn't offer any true justification for restricting sunder. And, in the past, people who have asked for the same thing always did it for one of the two reasons I quoted. Being only human, I can understand that it could be the kneejerk reaction of someone who had to suffer from it (I have too, btw). But, like others have pointed out, this game loses its appeal if the risk goes down. Dying and getting raised (when you're high enough level) is easy and relatively cheap, so the challenge becomes not only staying alive but keeping your equipment intact so that your character can function at peak efficiency. Feats/spells/monsters that threaten that are needed (though shouldn't become a daily encounter either) to keep the adrenaline pumping. If you remove Sunder, then ban also rust monsters, trip (hey! who wants the multiple AoO when getting up?), sneak attack, blasphemy, and basically all the ways NPC can ruin your day. But, then again, it wouldn't be much of a challenge if it happened, eh? Yes, sunder will - at times - deprive us of a "toy" we worked hard at getting. Is it fun? No. Will you be mad about it? You bet! Is it justification enough to remove it from the game? Heck no!
Mithrus 02-06-06, 10:17 AM	If you remove Sunder, then ban also rust monsters, trip (hey! who wants the multiple AoO when getting up?), sneak attack, blasphemy, and basically all the ways NPC can ruin your day. But, then again, it wouldn't be much of a challenge if it happened, eh? Yes, sunder will - at times - deprive us of a "toy" we worked hard at getting. Is it fun? No. Will you be mad about it? You bet! Is it justification enough to remove it from the game? Heck no! Isn't this going a tad overboard? I am not say remove the challenge. Item damage/repair is simply a significantly lesser-focused concept in D&D. If we wanted to be realistic, every critical should have a chance to sunder your own weapon, as you break your weapon over the enemy's head. I am convinced that the sundering as is in D&D is just too easy. Perhaps making magic items harder to sunder (increase the HPs per + or similar) would make it a bit more balanced. I know giants can be brutal enemies, and have the fortune to not encounter them often in my region. But seriously, doesn't it seem a bit "unreal" that high-end characters fear for their EQUIPMENT more than their own lives??? I don't mind the "loss" of gps at the end of the mod for destroying items. Loosing access is painful, since some of the "rare" access is not seen more than once per character, if that. What I don't like is the "death penalty" effect loosing an item has on a character from that point on. Characters can recover well enough from a death. Most characters cannot recover well from loosing any notable item that they have (which coincedently is the primary target of npc sunderers). Should characters loose equipment ever? Sure. But when you essentially live on a fixed income budget such as LG, this becomes a much more painful fact of life than any home campaign I've been involved in. Character death should be feared, especially more than loosing any one piece of equipment.
Objulen 02-06-06, 10:28 AM	Should characters loose equipment ever? Sure. But when you essentially live on a fixed income budget such as LG, this becomes a much more painful fact of life than any home campaign I've been involved in. Character death should be feared, especially more than loosing any one piece of equipment. That depends on who your DM is. I guess if you get a Sunder-happy DM, you are a bit screwed on the topic. Since I doubt that sundering is every going to be removed, about the only solution is your DM realizing that 'discretion' is the better part of valor when it comes to sundering PC equipment.