Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oaklock 11-18-07, 10:47 PM	Hi, As a DM who just uses the three core book, I am looking at judging some adventures that talk of swift actions. I could not find any reference to that in those books. Could some one please inform me of where I can find it, or how it works, if it is not in those books? Thanks,
ChainLink 11-18-07, 11:02 PM	It's in the Complete Arcane, Miniatures Handbook, probably Complete Adventurer, Spell Compendium, and I believe they're in the fancy leather-bound PHB as well. Swift, as well as Immediate, actions can also be found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm Summary: Swift action is a free action you can do once per turn. This does not provoke. Example: any spell used with Metamagic Quicken. Immediate action is just like a Swift action, but you can do it even when it's not your turn. If you use one when it isn't your turn, it uses up your ability to do a Swift action on your next turn. Example: the spell Featherfall
Oaklock 11-18-07, 11:19 PM	thanks
Timlagor 11-18-07, 11:37 PM	I think they're explained in the FAQ too.. possibly the LGCS.
solbergb 11-26-07, 06:23 PM	The FAQ reprints the swift and immediate action rules. The sources for LG are the 3 core books, their eratta and the FAQ, plus LGCS. So you only have to buy the 3 books, but you have to be aware of the other online (free) sources.
Vamroc 11-28-07, 04:48 PM	It's an immediate action that can only be made on your turn. So you can take the Swift Action and still perform any other you have that round. There are swift spells like Critical Strike it's a first level Open spell that give you +1D6/ +4 to confirm a critical and doubles the threat range of your weapon. Which is ugly if you have a something with a x 4 multiplier.
Iswald 11-29-07, 04:34 AM	It's an immediate action that can only be made on your turn. Given that swift and immediate actions are defined in the same sources, this may not have been the best way to describe swift actions. ;)
TWG_Prometheus 11-30-07, 06:59 PM	err. nevermind...it's been covered.
Mattastrophic 11-30-07, 07:46 PM	Which is ugly if you have a something with a x 4 multiplier. Gotta be flanking for Critical Strike to work. So you have to spend time to set up the flank, which means you're not firing off all your attacks. -Matt
Vamroc 11-30-07, 08:11 PM	Gotta be flanking for Critical Strike to work. So you have to spend time to set up the flank, which means you're not firing off all your attacks. -Matt Who care's most of the time if you critical on a x4 plus 1 D6 one attack is all you need and any time you can give your self +2 is time well spent.
KarmaInferno 11-30-07, 09:33 PM	In the time it takes to set that up, some folks can actually do MORE damage than a single critical can achieve. Even if it is x4. I've a barbarian that regularly steps in and drops 150+ points of damage on a full attack, without any criticals at all. If she pulls out all the stops, it jumps to 200+, average. Plus, not everything multiplies when you crit. Sneak attacks, for example, and energy damage. -karma
copperwyrmling 12-01-07, 12:21 AM	In the time it takes to set that up, some folks can actually do MORE damage than a single critical can achieve. Even if it is x4. I've a barbarian that regularly steps in and drops 150+ points of damage on a full attack, without any criticals at all. If she pulls out all the stops, it jumps to 200+, average. Plus, not everything multiplies when you crit. Sneak attacks, for example, and energy damage. At the baby levels, the spell slot for critical strike is a significant use of resources, but you only have one attack anyway, so you don't give up much by moving to flank. At higher levels, you can easily spare the spell slot, but sacrificing your full attack for +2 to hit, +1d6 damage and increasing your chance to crit from 5% to 10% (with a x4 crit weapon) is usually a very bad deal. At those levels, critical strike is more useful as a swift-action "every attack in my full attack gets another +1d6 damage", when you're already flanking.
Vamroc 12-01-07, 09:56 AM	At the baby levels, the spell slot for critical strike is a significant use of resources, but you only have one attack anyway, so you don't give up much by moving to flank. At higher levels, you can easily spare the spell slot, but sacrificing your full attack for +2 to hit, +1d6 damage and increasing your chance to crit from 5% to 10% (with a x4 crit weapon) is usually a very bad deal. At those levels, critical strike is more useful as a swift-action "every attack in my full attack gets another +1d6 damage", when you're already flanking. Most of those other attacks you get a half your BAB and quite often miss so the only one that really matters is your primary. I never said it was the end all be all just that it's a good spell. Mabey one the Barbarian hold the Great Axe that does D12 x3 would like because I find 18 come up a lot more often than 20. Then stack the +4 which for me is almost an auto confirm.
Mattastrophic 12-01-07, 11:18 AM	Most of those other attacks you get a half your BAB and quite often miss so the only one that really matters is your primary. I never said it was the end all be all just that it's a good spell. Mabey one the Barbarian hold the Great Axe that does D12 x3 would like because I find 18 come up a lot more often than 20. Then stack the +4 which for me is almost an auto confirm. All I'll say is that it sounds like you've got a lot to learn. -Matt
Vamroc 12-01-07, 02:15 PM	All I'll say is that it sounds like you've got a lot to learn. -Matt Last time I checked if you're fighting something with an AC of twenty-six the second attack BAB for fighters at ninth is +3. I'll give you a seventeen strength so your at plus +6 and Weapon Focus for another +1. I will also give you some sort of magic +1 weapon. You still need an eighteen with the second attack and I've fought against creatures with much higher ACs than that. It's more like you just don't fight anything higher than two levels below you. As I stated when you fight against creatures with AC 26, 28, or even 30 a plus +8 or even a +10 will miss ninety-five percent of the time.
Sieylianna 12-01-07, 03:55 PM	Last time I checked if you're fighting something with an AC of twenty-six the second attack BAB for fighters at ninth is +3. I'll give you a seventeen strength so your at plus +6 and Weapon Focus for another +1. I will also give you some sort of magic +1 weapon. You still need an eighteen with the second attack and I've fought against creatures with much higher ACs than that. It's more like you just don't fight anything higher than two levels below you. As I stated when you fight against creatures with AC 26, 28, or even 30 a plus +8 or even a +10 will miss ninety-five percent of the time. A 9th level pure fighter should have at least a 20 strength (including a +2 stat item and +4 isn't out of the question). He should have weapon focus. He is most likely going to have a +1 weapon with damage enhancements. So his attacks should be +16/+10. Against an AC of 26, he needs a 16 (25% chance of hitting). Against an AC of 28, he needs an 18 (15% chance of hitting). Against an AC of 30, he needs a 20 (5% chance of hitting). And this is ignoring party buffs (prayer, bless, inspire courage, GMW, hero's feast) and flanking. This is the reason that most fighters have power attack. If the foe is hard to hit, he cuts his power attack. If they are easy to hit, he ups power attack (and damage). Ed
Vamroc 12-01-07, 05:32 PM	A 9th level pure fighter should have at least a 20 strength (including a +2 stat item and +4 isn't out of the question). He should have weapon focus. He is most likely going to have a +1 weapon with damage enhancements. So his attacks should be +16/+10. Against an AC of 26, he needs a 16 (25% chance of hitting). Against an AC of 28, he needs an 18 (15% chance of hitting). Against an AC of 30, he needs a 20 (5% chance of hitting). And this is ignoring party buffs (prayer, bless, inspire courage, GMW, hero's feast) and flanking. This is the reason that most fighters have power attack. If the foe is hard to hit, he cuts his power attack. If they are easy to hit, he ups power attack (and damage). Ed I was making the point the odds of rolling it are always going to be very small. The guy in the other post was just being a jaghole and not listen to the point I was trying make. Which was the spell Critical Strike is a good spell and it's never a waste of time to flank. When you go from an eighteen to a fifteen to threaten with a falchion and get an extra 1D6 damage with +4 to confirm. How can anybody call that spell not worth it at any level. :fight!:
Mattastrophic 12-01-07, 06:28 PM	The guy in the other post was just being a jaghole and not listen to the point I was trying make. Excuse me? So because I mentioned that spending the move action and taking AoOs to move into flank, and dropping one's BAB with spellcaster levels, just for another +2/+1d6/Keen, requires more than zero effort, without mentioning any corrections to your belief that a Keened Greataxe crits on an 18 (which it doesn't), I'm something that you couldn't get through the language filters? -Matt
Vamroc 12-01-07, 08:17 PM	Excuse me? So because I mentioned that spending the move action and taking AoOs to move into flank, and dropping one's BAB with spellcaster levels, just for another +2/+1d6/Keen, requires more than zero effort, without mentioning any corrections to your belief that a Keened Greataxe crits on an 18 (which it doesn't), I'm something that you couldn't get through the language filters? -Matt I never said anything about AOOs also you have to be a level eight fighter to get improved critical. The spell Keen Edge is third level sorc/wiz spell which means you must be a fifth level Sorc/Wiz to cast it. On the other hand Critical Strike serves the same fuction and gives you a +4 to confirm and +1D6 damage at first level. I can think of better third level spells than Keen Edges like Fly or Haste. Just conceed it's better than most other first level spells with exception to Magic Missile and Mage Armor. I am willing to admit I was wrong about the Great Axe and about the name calling.
copperwyrmling 12-01-07, 08:36 PM	Last time I checked if you're fighting something with an AC of twenty-six the second attack BAB for fighters at ninth is +3. Actually, +4 - iteratives are 5 points lower than your main attack. I'll give you a seventeen strength so your at plus +6 and Weapon Focus for another +1. I will also give you some sort of magic +1 weapon. Most fighters I know started with at least 16 Str, and you've bumped it twice by the time you hit L9. You still need an eighteen with the second attack and I've fought against creatures with much higher ACs than that. It's more like you just don't fight anything higher than two levels below you. As I stated when you fight against creatures with AC 26, 28, or even 30 a plus +8 or even a +10 will miss ninety-five percent of the time. My melee's attacks at 9th level were usually at +21/+16 before PA. On the AR before he hit L10, he bought a belt of giant strength and boots of speed, and suddenly they jumped to (usually) +24/+19. Don't discount mattastrophic's experience: I'm pretty sure he's played a fair bit at high APL. That said, 9th level wasn't exactly what I meant when I said "high level". Consider the following basic tank: Half-Orc Barbarian 1 / Fighter 8 Starting stats: Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 6 Wis 8 Cha 6 L4 and L8 bumps go to Str Assume gauntlets of ogre power and a +1 weapon Feats: L1: Barbarian - Extra Rage, Reckless Rage L2: Fighter - Combat Reflexes L3: Fighter - Weapon Focus (Glaive), Power Attack L4: Fighter L5: Fighter - Weapon Specialization (Glaive) L6: Fighter - Improved Bull Rush L7: Fighter - Shock Trooper L8: Fighter L9: Fighter - Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) This isn't an optimized build. And yet... raging, at L9, Str is 28, he attacks at +22/+17 to hit, for 18+1d10 damage / swing before PA. His second attack hits the aforementioned AC 26 on a 9. If he's hasted - which is a pretty frequent buff at those levels - his full attack is +23/+23/+18. At L15, even if you just keep taking fighter levels and assume he buys boots of speed, he'll end up with four attacks in a full attack, and the primary will have a to-hit bonus in the mid-30s at least. Monster ACs do not, as a general rule, scale nearly as fast as PC attack bonus. (Sadly, PC armor class also does not usually scale as fast as monster attack bonus :( ) Still, for PCs who don't often use their swift-action slot, critical strike is a fine spell. +1d6 damage for a round is nothing to complain about, and flanking usually isn't too difficult (although maybe my view on that is skewed by the fact that my main melee is a dervish and regularly plays with two other frontliners, and we all actively try to provide flanks for each other). (That said, crits are fun. We had the best crit round I've ever seen in a slot-zero this afternoon: our occult slayer critted on the second attack in his full attack, my dervish hit the occult slayer's opponent and killed it, cleaved, critted on the cleave killing that opponent, then took his second attack on a third opponent and critted, killing it as well - and then our theurge threw an orb of force at the enemy caster and critted, killing her... it was a very fast combat :) )
Vamroc 12-01-07, 09:37 PM	Actually, +4 - iteratives are 5 points lower than your main attack. Most fighters I know started with at least 16 Str, and you've bumped it twice by the time you hit L9. My melee's attacks at 9th level were usually at +21/+16 before PA. On the AR before he hit L10, he bought a belt of giant strength and boots of speed, and suddenly they jumped to (usually) +24/+19. Don't discount mattastrophic's experience: I'm pretty sure he's played a fair bit at high APL. That said, 9th level wasn't exactly what I meant when I said "high level". Consider the following basic tank: Half-Orc Barbarian 1 / Fighter 8 Starting stats: Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 6 Wis 8 Cha 6 L4 and L8 bumps go to Str Assume gauntlets of ogre power and a +1 weapon Feats: L1: Barbarian - Extra Rage, Reckless Rage L2: Fighter - Combat Reflexes L3: Fighter - Weapon Focus (Glaive), Power Attack L4: Fighter L5: Fighter - Weapon Specialization (Glaive) L6: Fighter - Improved Bull Rush L7: Fighter - Shock Trooper L8: Fighter L9: Fighter - Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) This isn't an optimized build. And yet... raging, at L9, Str is 28, he attacks at +22/+17 to hit, for 18+1d10 damage / swing before PA. His second attack hits the aforementioned AC 26 on a 9. If he's hasted - which is a pretty frequent buff at those levels - his full attack is +23/+23/+18. At L15, even if you just keep taking fighter levels and assume he buys boots of speed, he'll end up with four attacks in a full attack, and the primary will have a to-hit bonus in the mid-30s at least. Monster ACs do not, as a general rule, scale nearly as fast as PC attack bonus. (Sadly, PC armor class also does not usually scale as fast as monster attack bonus :( ) Still, for PCs who don't often use their swift-action slot, critical strike is a fine spell. +1d6 damage for a round is nothing to complain about, and flanking usually isn't too difficult (although maybe my view on that is skewed by the fact that my main melee is a dervish and regularly plays with two other frontliners, and we all actively try to provide flanks for each other). (That said, crits are fun. We had the best crit round I've ever seen in a slot-zero this afternoon: our occult slayer critted on the second attack in his full attack, my dervish hit the occult slayer's opponent and killed it, cleaved, critted on the cleave killing that opponent, then took his second attack on a third opponent and critted, killing it as well - and then our theurge threw an orb of force at the enemy caster and critted, killing her... it was a very fast combat :) ) I was just caught up in a moment of being "flamed" and was kinda peeved you can understand that right. It's never my intent to be hostile really but matt's reasoning was just flawed. If I were making a tank your right I could build a charactor that has a higher attack and does more damage per round. I only presented an example nothing more.
MwaO 12-02-07, 10:22 AM	I was just caught up in a moment of being "flamed" and was kinda peeved you can understand that right. It's never my intent to be hostile really but matt's reasoning was just flawed. If I were making a tank your right I could build a charactor that has a higher attack and does more damage per round. I only presented an example nothing more. It isn't a bad spell to have if you have to have a spell. The problem is that means you took a level of Wizard, Sorcerer, 2 levels of Bard, or 8 levels of Hexblade. If you're a Gish build, hey, why not. But for most BDFs, that means losing a BAB for something that requires you to position. Which with Power Attack is +2 damage on every single attack of every round of every combat. Also, your default assumption seems to be that the BDF won't have Haste available. If you do have to position, you're not just losing the iterative, you're losing the primary.
Sieylianna 12-02-07, 12:30 PM	Half-Orc Barbarian 1 / Fighter 8 Starting stats: Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 6 Wis 8 Cha 6 L4 and L8 bumps go to Str Assume gauntlets of ogre power and a +1 weapon Feats: L1: Barbarian - Extra Rage, Reckless Rage Half-orc barbarians only have one feat at first level. Ed
Mattastrophic 12-02-07, 01:25 PM	Let's not nitpick copper_wyrmling's off-the-top-of-the-head fighter build, please. The point has been made. Honestly though, the best thing you can do with a swift action these days is activate a Belt of Battle. -Matt
copperwyrmling 12-02-07, 10:32 PM	Let's not nitpick copper_wyrmling's off-the-top-of-the-head fighter build, please. The point has been made. Honestly though, the best thing you can do with a swift action these days is activate a Belt of Battle. -Matt Heh, that was stupid of me, it was a human build when I wrote it out and then I changed it to half-orc because that's less optimal but perhaps more common for a new player wanting a basher. Just move Reckless Rage to third level and shift Weapon Focus back (or just go human, better imo): I was having trouble finding simple feats to fill in the fighter levels anyway, as it wasn't meant to be an optimized build, just a straightforward "me smash stuff dead" that a beginner might reasonably make and play (shocktrooper is a nice trick, but this sort of build is good enough at dissuading people from coming past them that they often do want to stick near the squishies rather than charging off). And yes, belts of battle are wonderful. On the topic of broken access (don't threads go off-topic quickly?) I have now seen access to Ordained Champion. Woe unto the world, for the end days must indeed be fast approaching...
Hariman 12-02-07, 11:39 PM	Heh, that was stupid of me, it was a human build when I wrote it out and then I changed it to half-orc because that's less optimal but perhaps more common for a new player wanting a basher. Just move Reckless Rage to third level and shift Weapon Focus back (or just go human, better imo): I was having trouble finding simple feats to fill in the fighter levels anyway, as it wasn't meant to be an optimized build, just a straightforward "me smash stuff dead" that a beginner might reasonably make and play (shocktrooper is a nice trick, but this sort of build is good enough at dissuading people from coming past them that they often do want to stick near the squishies rather than charging off). And yes, belts of battle are wonderful. On the topic of broken access (don't threads go off-topic quickly?) I have now seen access to Ordained Champion. Woe unto the world, for the end days must indeed be fast approaching... Hey, that means I've got a shot at access to Dragon Devotee and pre-10th level access to duskblade.
_metz_ 12-03-07, 09:18 AM	On the topic of broken access (don't threads go off-topic quickly?) I have now seen access to Ordained Champion. Woe unto the world, for the end days must indeed be fast approaching... Well. that is unfortunate. Triads/etc should be trying to keep this stuff out, and the fact they are letting it in means that they are either allowing certain people to have better characters than anywhere else or incompetent in understanding what is broken. Either way, I don't like the options...
Mattastrophic 12-03-07, 09:36 AM	Triads/etc should be trying to keep this stuff out, and the fact they are letting it in means that they are either allowing certain people to have better characters than anywhere else or incompetent in understanding what is broken. Remember, the Circle has to approve all access granted. Don't pin this one on the Triads. If you have any complaints, the Circle is where you should direct them. -Matt has no complaints about going all-out on crazy access. He hopes that means the Year 8 modules will be challenging.
Arvagor 12-03-07, 11:42 AM	Remember, the Circle has to approve all access granted. Don't pin this one on the Triads. If you have any complaints, the Circle is where you should direct them.Well, you can blame it on the triad in question if they never bothered to ask permission in the first place. I asked about including access to Ordained Champion in a Church of Heironeous meta-org update, and was told "no" by my Circle rep (because of how powerful said PrC has the potential to be).
magebeast 12-03-07, 12:07 PM	Well, you can blame it on the triad in question if they never bothered to ask permission in the first place. I asked about including access to Ordained Champion in a Church of Heironeous meta-org update, and was told "no" by my Circle rep (because of how powerful said PrC has the potential to be). It's probably a different circle rep that gave permission.
Arvagor 12-03-07, 01:31 PM	It's probably a different circle rep that gave permission.Seeing as he said the Circle discussed it and decided it should not be avilable to PCs, I kinda doubt it ;)
magebeast 12-03-07, 02:37 PM	Seeing as he said the Circle discussed it and decided it should not be avilable to PCs, I kinda doubt it ;) I can only defend myself by pointing out that this vital info was not in the original post i was replying to!