Swift, Immediate Actions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Swift, Immediate Actions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arvagor
02-04-06, 02:30 PM I would like to suggest reprinting (if possible) the definitions of Swift and Immediate Actions in the LGCS (perhaps in the glossary at the back?).
kjenks
02-04-06, 04:04 PM If we do this, it would be a good idea to post the rules for swift action magic items from the front of the Spell Compendium.
Arvagor
02-04-06, 05:46 PM Agreed (I still don't agree with the actual rule ;) , but it's been codified so it can't hurt to restate it)
Munkwunk
02-04-06, 08:33 PM I agree. Since these seem to be new 3.5-wide rules (that never made it in to the core 3 books), it would be nice to have a reference for players who don't have the latest books that they were printed in.
boolean
02-06-06, 12:36 AM Why?

If a books contains spells or items that use the swift/immediate action mechanics, then those mechanics are also reprinted in the book. (At least I'm not aware of any books that mention swift/immediate actions without rerinting the rules.)

If a player wishes to use an item from a non-core source, they're expected to own that source. So everybody who can use a swift/immediate item already owns a copy of the swift/immediate rules.
Britt
02-06-06, 12:40 AM (At least I'm not aware of any books that mention swift/immediate actions without rerinting the rules.)
The PHB, for one. /Feather fall's/ action is defined, I believe, as an immediate action by the new rules. Quickened spells, I believe, are defined as swift actions. However, the rules for swift/immediate actions are not in the PHB.
JohnduBois
02-06-06, 12:42 AM As with any non-core rules option ("core" in this context meaning the three core books of PHB, DMG, and MM), there are two options the campaign staff can use. One is to put the rules in the LGCS. The other is to print what a swift or immediate action is every time any NPC has a swift or immediate spell in their stats block. I don't know which they will go for.
solbergb
02-06-06, 02:33 AM The FAQ has reprinted the definition of immediate and swift actions.

The FAQ is free, and all LG players are supposed to be aware of the rules in there.

This is a nonissue.
kjenks
02-06-06, 08:59 PM Sadly, it is a little bit of an issue.

The rules for activating swift-action spells from items are printed only in the Spell Compendium (page 4), not in the FAQ. As far as I can tell, these SpC rules are supposed to apply to items listed in Complete Arcane that contain swift-action spells.

As the rules are written in LGCS 5, it does not appear that these SpC rules apply to LG, so it's presently ambiguous what kind of action is required, say, to activate Feather Fall from a Phoenix Helm (Complete Arcane, p.149), or even a Wand of Nature's Favor (SpC).

It would be a good idea to reprint those Spell Compendium rules in the LGCS if we want those rules to apply to our campaign (with permission from the publisher, of course, and therein may lie a legal-office delay).
solbergb
02-07-06, 09:54 PM Ok...swift actions and immediate actions on ITEMS should be clarified, I can go with that. That's always been a sore spot, and I don't think the game designers agree.

(mini handbook and SC say "std action is minimum". The inclusion of scrolls and wands of gravestrike etc in CV say "the casting time is what's used on scrolls and wands" according to that author. Circle should make a call, and communicate it to authors, who in at least one currently available core mod have an NPC tactic listed as using a swift-action wand in the same round as a bardsong...)
CSHunt68
02-07-06, 10:15 PM Where does the CV author say that?
solbergb
02-08-06, 02:29 AM The CV author "says" that when he has wands and scrolls of swift and immediate action spells in the treasure tables.

You could argue the scrolls are only there for wizards to share spells, but the wands are 100% absolutely and positivley useless if they can't activate on a swift action (the spells run out in one round. Some theoretically might be used on an AOO, but a wand of, say, inspirational boost can't be used without mixing in the Races of Stone spell Harmonize (to let you sing as a move action after using your std action to activate the wand))...it is extraordinarily unlikely anyone would bother to create a wand of any of those spells if the author didn't think wands could go at the speed of the spell.

The authors of SC and MH though, seem to disagree. The FAQ just says that if a spell is LONGER than std action, you use the casting time of the spell for wands and scrolls.

It would be nice if the circle ruled on this in the LGCS, and then, if they are in fact std action only, the triad/circle smacked any authors over the head who tried to include such a wand in an adventure (barring a character who could actually use it, such as the harmonizing bard described above...but why use a wand whe you could just have the spell in your head, and put your other L1 spell known in the wand, where it wouldn't be crippled? The mind boggles)
CSHunt68
02-08-06, 08:12 AM I think it's an assumption of some kind to interpret what the author meant. There is no quote to back up what you've said.

Anyway, the SC is the definitive source and has resolved the issue. It doesn't bother me if it gets into the LGCS.

Regards,
Sean Hunt
solbergb
02-08-06, 01:53 PM I'd be happy if the circle said, in the LGCS (probably FAQ) that the SC ruling on swift/immediate spells from wands/scrolls is official. Just as they did with the CA "weaponlike spell" rules.

The thing is...no books other than PHB, DMG, MM are rules sources unless the LGCS says so. They are only "advisory", and any judge can ignore it if he feels like it...he is only required to abide by item text, feat text, spell text, PRC text, etc. Those other books are sources of feats, classes, spells, etc...but not rules mechanics. The rules in those books sometimes contradict each other too, which doesn't help.
CSHunt68
02-08-06, 02:55 PM If the SC becomes the latest source for spells (and spell errata) in the campaign, then it's reasonable - and the only rational thing to do - to use rules from that source.

Regards,
Sean
GreySector
02-08-06, 03:30 PM If the SC becomes the latest source for spells (and spell errata) in the campaign, then it's reasonable - and the only rational thing to do - to use rules from that source.

Regards,
Sean

In my experience, when talking about campaign documents and game rules, reasonableness is about as rare a comodity as you can find.

For example:

Does the LGCS state that you can use the rules on swift/immediate actions in spell trigger and spell completion items from the Spell Compendium? No? Then because I don't have to do it I won't. Instead I'm going to use the rules on spell trigger and spell completion items from the DMG which state that the activation time is one standard action unless the stored spell's casting time is longer, in which case activating the item takes the stored spell's casting time.

I can think of at least a couple of people on Infinite Monkeys that would say almost exactly that.

-Michael Eshleman
CSHunt68
02-08-06, 03:47 PM Uh, but the DMG rule is exactly the one to use - it doesn't conflict with SC.
?
GreySector
02-08-06, 04:30 PM Uh, but the DMG rule is exactly the one to use - it doesn't conflict with SC.
?

Sorry, I was under the impression that the Spell Compendium rules were different. I haven't actually read them, I was actually kind of going off posts in this thread... :embarrass

-Michael Eshleman
solbergb
02-08-06, 04:54 PM Uh, but the DMG rule is exactly the one to use - it doesn't conflict with SC.
?

No but it doesn't cover it either. Nor does the FAQ entry on the same topic, which essentially says "we should have said that the casting time of the spell was used on spell trigger and completion objects" but only says it in context of LONGER spells, not shorter.

Only the MH and SC explicitly cover this topic, but their conclusion means that items provided in CV (and on some AR's) are 100% useless.

All rules that don't conflict with the DMG from other sources MAY be used but only at the Judge's discretion, and only with the other source handy at the table. The exceptions are: FAQ and Dispel Confusion (and LGCS, which is where we get what is allowed and what isn't, and it does rule on some things, such as weaponlike spell rules from CA being valid). Those exceptions override the core 3 books, and are used even if they conflict.
CSHunt68
02-08-06, 06:21 PM Right, but the SC rule (the reasonable one to use) doesn't conflict with the DMG rule (the "official" one to use).

I don't see the problem. What do your generalizations have to do with the topic at hand - swift and immediate actions? ...
?

The SC is essentially core. If there's something in the SC (short of Limited vs. Restricted vs. wombat-PC-only) that isn't to be used in LG, I don't know what it is.

No need for confusion.
kjenks
02-21-06, 11:23 PM If we do this, it would be a good idea to post the rules for swift action magic items from the front of the Spell Compendium.

This topic was not covered in the final LGCS 5.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arvagor 02-04-06, 02:30 PM	I would like to suggest reprinting (if possible) the definitions of Swift and Immediate Actions in the LGCS (perhaps in the glossary at the back?).
kjenks 02-04-06, 04:04 PM	If we do this, it would be a good idea to post the rules for swift action magic items from the front of the Spell Compendium.
Arvagor 02-04-06, 05:46 PM	Agreed (I still don't agree with the actual rule ;) , but it's been codified so it can't hurt to restate it)
Munkwunk 02-04-06, 08:33 PM	I agree. Since these seem to be new 3.5-wide rules (that never made it in to the core 3 books), it would be nice to have a reference for players who don't have the latest books that they were printed in.
boolean 02-06-06, 12:36 AM	Why? If a books contains spells or items that use the swift/immediate action mechanics, then those mechanics are also reprinted in the book. (At least I'm not aware of any books that mention swift/immediate actions without rerinting the rules.) If a player wishes to use an item from a non-core source, they're expected to own that source. So everybody who can use a swift/immediate item already owns a copy of the swift/immediate rules.
Britt 02-06-06, 12:40 AM	(At least I'm not aware of any books that mention swift/immediate actions without rerinting the rules.) The PHB, for one. /Feather fall's/ action is defined, I believe, as an immediate action by the new rules. Quickened spells, I believe, are defined as swift actions. However, the rules for swift/immediate actions are not in the PHB.
JohnduBois 02-06-06, 12:42 AM	As with any non-core rules option ("core" in this context meaning the three core books of PHB, DMG, and MM), there are two options the campaign staff can use. One is to put the rules in the LGCS. The other is to print what a swift or immediate action is every time any NPC has a swift or immediate spell in their stats block. I don't know which they will go for.
solbergb 02-06-06, 02:33 AM	The FAQ has reprinted the definition of immediate and swift actions. The FAQ is free, and all LG players are supposed to be aware of the rules in there. This is a nonissue.
kjenks 02-06-06, 08:59 PM	Sadly, it is a little bit of an issue. The rules for activating swift-action spells from items are printed only in the Spell Compendium (page 4), not in the FAQ. As far as I can tell, these SpC rules are supposed to apply to items listed in Complete Arcane that contain swift-action spells. As the rules are written in LGCS 5, it does not appear that these SpC rules apply to LG, so it's presently ambiguous what kind of action is required, say, to activate Feather Fall from a Phoenix Helm (Complete Arcane, p.149), or even a Wand of Nature's Favor (SpC). It would be a good idea to reprint those Spell Compendium rules in the LGCS if we want those rules to apply to our campaign (with permission from the publisher, of course, and therein may lie a legal-office delay).
solbergb 02-07-06, 09:54 PM	Ok...swift actions and immediate actions on ITEMS should be clarified, I can go with that. That's always been a sore spot, and I don't think the game designers agree. (mini handbook and SC say "std action is minimum". The inclusion of scrolls and wands of gravestrike etc in CV say "the casting time is what's used on scrolls and wands" according to that author. Circle should make a call, and communicate it to authors, who in at least one currently available core mod have an NPC tactic listed as using a swift-action wand in the same round as a bardsong...)
CSHunt68 02-07-06, 10:15 PM	Where does the CV author say that?
solbergb 02-08-06, 02:29 AM	The CV author "says" that when he has wands and scrolls of swift and immediate action spells in the treasure tables. You could argue the scrolls are only there for wizards to share spells, but the wands are 100% absolutely and positivley useless if they can't activate on a swift action (the spells run out in one round. Some theoretically might be used on an AOO, but a wand of, say, inspirational boost can't be used without mixing in the Races of Stone spell Harmonize (to let you sing as a move action after using your std action to activate the wand))...it is extraordinarily unlikely anyone would bother to create a wand of any of those spells if the author didn't think wands could go at the speed of the spell. The authors of SC and MH though, seem to disagree. The FAQ just says that if a spell is LONGER than std action, you use the casting time of the spell for wands and scrolls. It would be nice if the circle ruled on this in the LGCS, and then, if they are in fact std action only, the triad/circle smacked any authors over the head who tried to include such a wand in an adventure (barring a character who could actually use it, such as the harmonizing bard described above...but why use a wand whe you could just have the spell in your head, and put your other L1 spell known in the wand, where it wouldn't be crippled? The mind boggles)
CSHunt68 02-08-06, 08:12 AM	I think it's an assumption of some kind to interpret what the author meant. There is no quote to back up what you've said. Anyway, the SC is the definitive source and has resolved the issue. It doesn't bother me if it gets into the LGCS. Regards, Sean Hunt
solbergb 02-08-06, 01:53 PM	I'd be happy if the circle said, in the LGCS (probably FAQ) that the SC ruling on swift/immediate spells from wands/scrolls is official. Just as they did with the CA "weaponlike spell" rules. The thing is...no books other than PHB, DMG, MM are rules sources unless the LGCS says so. They are only "advisory", and any judge can ignore it if he feels like it...he is only required to abide by item text, feat text, spell text, PRC text, etc. Those other books are sources of feats, classes, spells, etc...but not rules mechanics. The rules in those books sometimes contradict each other too, which doesn't help.
CSHunt68 02-08-06, 02:55 PM	If the SC becomes the latest source for spells (and spell errata) in the campaign, then it's reasonable - and the only rational thing to do - to use rules from that source. Regards, Sean
GreySector 02-08-06, 03:30 PM	If the SC becomes the latest source for spells (and spell errata) in the campaign, then it's reasonable - and the only rational thing to do - to use rules from that source. Regards, Sean In my experience, when talking about campaign documents and game rules, reasonableness is about as rare a comodity as you can find. For example: Does the LGCS state that you can use the rules on swift/immediate actions in spell trigger and spell completion items from the Spell Compendium? No? Then because I don't have to do it I won't. Instead I'm going to use the rules on spell trigger and spell completion items from the DMG which state that the activation time is one standard action unless the stored spell's casting time is longer, in which case activating the item takes the stored spell's casting time. I can think of at least a couple of people on Infinite Monkeys that would say almost exactly that. -Michael Eshleman
CSHunt68 02-08-06, 03:47 PM	Uh, but the DMG rule is exactly the one to use - it doesn't conflict with SC. ?
GreySector 02-08-06, 04:30 PM	Uh, but the DMG rule is exactly the one to use - it doesn't conflict with SC. ? Sorry, I was under the impression that the Spell Compendium rules were different. I haven't actually read them, I was actually kind of going off posts in this thread... :embarrass -Michael Eshleman
solbergb 02-08-06, 04:54 PM	Uh, but the DMG rule is exactly the one to use - it doesn't conflict with SC. ? No but it doesn't cover it either. Nor does the FAQ entry on the same topic, which essentially says "we should have said that the casting time of the spell was used on spell trigger and completion objects" but only says it in context of LONGER spells, not shorter. Only the MH and SC explicitly cover this topic, but their conclusion means that items provided in CV (and on some AR's) are 100% useless. All rules that don't conflict with the DMG from other sources MAY be used but only at the Judge's discretion, and only with the other source handy at the table. The exceptions are: FAQ and Dispel Confusion (and LGCS, which is where we get what is allowed and what isn't, and it does rule on some things, such as weaponlike spell rules from CA being valid). Those exceptions override the core 3 books, and are used even if they conflict.
CSHunt68 02-08-06, 06:21 PM	Right, but the SC rule (the reasonable one to use) doesn't conflict with the DMG rule (the "official" one to use). I don't see the problem. What do your generalizations have to do with the topic at hand - swift and immediate actions? ... ? The SC is essentially core. If there's something in the SC (short of Limited vs. Restricted vs. wombat-PC-only) that isn't to be used in LG, I don't know what it is. No need for confusion.
kjenks 02-21-06, 11:23 PM	If we do this, it would be a good idea to post the rules for swift action magic items from the front of the Spell Compendium. This topic was not covered in the final LGCS 5.