Tanglefoot Bags and Charging [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tanglefoot Bags and Charging [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
catsclaw
03-15-07, 05:12 PM From the SRD, on Tanglefoot Bags:When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air ... Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed.And from the SRD, on charging:You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles)Does limiting movement to half-speed effectively prevent charging?
Eric Anondson
03-15-07, 05:38 PM This question would also see to apply to the slow spell. Does the slow spell prevent charging? The slow spell also causes targets to move at half speed.
solbergb
03-15-07, 09:10 PM no, the slow spell is different. It takes away your move action rather than hindering your movement.

Charge requires you to go at full speed.

A Slowed character can go at his full speed. He just can't go as far because he doesn't get a second move action.

Charge has an explicit exception for surprise round and effects like slow that allow charge.

If you have all your actions, you can't have hindered movement to charge.
Jay_Ibero_911
03-15-07, 09:26 PM no, the slow spell is different. It takes away your move action rather than hindering your movement.

Charge requires you to go at full speed.

A Slowed character can go at his full speed. He just can't go as far because he doesn't get a second move action.

Charge has an explicit exception for surprise round and effects like slow that allow charge.

If you have all your actions, you can't have hindered movement to charge.

Slow

Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes

An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. A slowed creature can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.

Multiple slow effects don’t stack. Slow counters and dispels haste.

Material Component: A drop of molasses.

So not only are you limited to a single move or standard action, but if you move your movement speed is halved. So no charging if slowed.
Sithobi1
03-15-07, 09:50 PM Slow halves your movement AND takes away an action.
Eric Anondson
03-15-07, 09:53 PM Charge requires you to go at full speed.
Mostly true.Charge has an explicit exception for surprise round and effects like slow that allow charge.Charge says this: "If you are able to take only a standard action or move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of double your speed). You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn (such as during a surprise round).

So it is not an exception exclusive to surprise rounds. Any time a person is restricted to a standard action or move action in a round the exception applies.

But the question still remains whether effects that simply bestow half movement count as hindering movement, such as blindness, the slow spell, or tanglefoot bags, etc.

What catsclaw excerpted on charging could be argued that there is a specific context in that sentence. The context being "the path". You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). It could be argued that in the context of the sentence that it clearly refers to any quality about or object in "the path" cannot hinder your movement through the path, not necessarily anything about the character being affected by effects apart from the situation of the path.

A slow spell or a tanglefoot bag or blindness halves movement speed, but by the rules it isn't clear that such an effect upon the character charging counts as "hindering movement" for the calculation of whether or not a charge is still possible.
Jay_Ibero_911
03-15-07, 09:57 PM Mostly true.Charge says this: "If you are able to take only a standard action or move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of double your speed). You can't use this option unless you are restricted t otaking only a standard action or move action on your turn (such as during a surprise round).

So it is not an exception exclusive to surprise rounds. Any time a person is restricted to a standard action or move action in a round, the exception applies.

But the question still remains whether effects that simply bestow half movement count as hindering movement, such as blindness, the slow spell, or tanglefoot bags, etc.

What catsclaw excerpted on charging could be argued that there is a specific context in that sentence. The context being "the path". You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). It could be argued that in the context of the sentence that it clearly refers to any quality about or object in "the path" cannot hinder your movement through the path, not necessarily anything about the character being affected by effects apart from the situation of the path.

A slow spell or a tanglefoot bag or blindness halves movement speed, but by the rules it isn't clear that such an effect upon the character charging counts as "hindering movement" for the calculation of whether or not a charge is still possible.

Well there is no question when it comes to tanglefoot bags. They cause the "entangled" condition which explicitly prevents charging.
Eric Anondson
03-15-07, 10:09 PM Well there is no question when it comes to tanglefoot bags. They cause the "entangled" condition which explicitly prevents charging.True. Can't believe I forgot that.

So, while the question is open whether a creature limited to half movement is prevented from charging, the entangled condition (PHB 308, DMG p. 300) explicitly says half movement AND no charging. So to answer castclaw with regard to tanglefoot bags, it's not the half movement, its the entangled condition that stops charging.
solbergb
03-15-07, 11:38 PM So not only are you limited to a single move or standard action, but if you move your movement speed is halved. So no charging if slowed.

oops, my bad.

(never used that spell in actual play, never had it used against me successfully yet, so never really learned how it worked)
solbergb
03-15-07, 11:44 PM So, while the question is open whether a creature limited to half movement is prevented from charging, .

"You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). "

"Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. (Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.)"

One could argue that for a character with reduced movement, all squares slow movement. Certainly any terrain effects that reduce the speed of a character this is true.

I'm trying to think of effects that reduce movement but don't also put some other condition on the character. Slow is about the only thing that comes to mind or hm....armor.

Ok, I'm rethinking it a bit. Armor slows your movement but you are still allowed to run and charge.

So...yeah, I think you're right. If you don't have a condition such as entangled that prevents a charge, and it isn't the environment that is slowing you down somehow, simply being reduced in speed does not prevent a charge.

So a slowed guy can charge...because his reduced speed isn't hindering terrain, including reduced visibility, nor a condition that explicitly prevents charging, (fatigued, entangled etc) and he can do it as a std action because of this rule. Assuming he meets the other conditions of a charge (has to be able to see target, nobody in the way, etc).
Jay_Ibero_911
03-15-07, 11:47 PM "You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). "

"Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. (Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.)"

One could argue that for a character with reduced movement, all squares slow movement. Certainly any terrain effects that reduce the speed of a character this is true.

I'm trying to think of effects that reduce movement but don't also put some other condition on the character. Slow is about the only thing that comes to mind or hm....armor.

Ok, I'm rethinking it a bit. Armor slows your movement but you are still allowed to run and charge.

So...yeah, I think you're right. If you don't have a condition such as entangled that prevents a charge, and it isn't the environment that is slowing you down somehow, simply being reduced in speed does not prevent a charge.

So a slowed guy can charge...because his reduced speed isn't hindering terrain, including reduced visibility, nor a condition that explicitly prevents charging, (fatigued, entangled etc) and he can do it as a std action because of this rule. Assuming he meets the other conditions of a charge (has to be able to see target, nobody in the way, etc).

Of course, you have very short range on a partial charge while slowed. 1/2 movement instead of 2x movement, in most cases 15ft charge.
Gwumph
03-15-07, 11:48 PM Also on the same argument.

Anything that slows your movement is considered difficult terrain. Whether it's a grease spell, ice field, rocky ground, or in this case a gob of glue that landed in your path.
Timlagor
03-16-07, 12:23 AM Also on the same argument.

Anything that slows your movement is considered difficult terrain. Whether it's a grease spell, ice field, rocky ground, or in this case a gob of glue that landed in your path.

If it's something physical then it does.

Slow spell does allow a charge though because it changes your speed rather than limitting you to using a proportion of your speed (hmm not sure that actually works as a distinction in the rules -ah well). I can't think of anything else that reduces speed while still allowing a charge.
Southernskies
03-17-07, 08:26 AM The main issue to keep in mind is the (quite significant) difference between speed penalties and difficult/hindered terrain.

From PHB appendix pg.312
"Speed: The number of feet a creature can move when taking a move action."

PHB pg.307
"Difficult Terrain: An area containing one or more features (such as rubble or undergrowth) that costs 2 squares instead of 1 square to move through."
As noted in pg148, it also prevents a run or charge.

Hmmm... had a big long post with examples and just found this one in the appendix:

PHB pg309
"half speed: When restricted to moving at half speed, count each square moved into as 2 squaress and every square of diagonal movement as 3 squares. if you are restricted to half speed, you can't run or charge, not can you take a 5 foot step."

Difficult terrain stacks with that as well (PHB pg 149; Double Movement Cost)

Suddenly slow and tanglefoot bags just got really nastier, as they can no long 5 foot step either.
ShinAkuma2
03-17-07, 09:22 AM Suddenly slow and tanglefoot bags just got really nastier, as they can no long 5 foot step either.

Suddenly? :thinks: They've been doing that for years.
Eric Anondson
03-17-07, 11:23 AM The main issue to keep in mind is the (quite significant) difference between speed penalties and difficult/hindered terrain.Well, in my mind this is an example of WotC hiding certain rules but explicitly repeating others. Sort of like the "catch on fire" by magic fire rules. They could take the space to mention it in the effect/spell description but instead leave it buried at the end of a Core book hoping someone finds it. Which would be fine if they were only consistent. :ahem: But thanks for digging out that obscure glossary find!
Timlagor
03-17-07, 10:26 PM I allow people who have been Slowed to 5'-step. I think the wording is sufficiently different to treat it differently and I consider the 'spirit' to be clearly on the side of doing so -there is certainly RAW-room to rule the other way though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catsclaw 03-15-07, 05:12 PM	From the SRD, on Tanglefoot Bags:When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air ... Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed.And from the SRD, on charging:You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles)Does limiting movement to half-speed effectively prevent charging?
Eric Anondson 03-15-07, 05:38 PM	This question would also see to apply to the slow spell. Does the slow spell prevent charging? The slow spell also causes targets to move at half speed.
solbergb 03-15-07, 09:10 PM	no, the slow spell is different. It takes away your move action rather than hindering your movement. Charge requires you to go at full speed. A Slowed character can go at his full speed. He just can't go as far because he doesn't get a second move action. Charge has an explicit exception for surprise round and effects like slow that allow charge. If you have all your actions, you can't have hindered movement to charge.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-15-07, 09:26 PM	no, the slow spell is different. It takes away your move action rather than hindering your movement. Charge requires you to go at full speed. A Slowed character can go at his full speed. He just can't go as far because he doesn't get a second move action. Charge has an explicit exception for surprise round and effects like slow that allow charge. If you have all your actions, you can't have hindered movement to charge. Slow Transmutation Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. A slowed creature can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed. Multiple slow effects don’t stack. Slow counters and dispels haste. Material Component: A drop of molasses. So not only are you limited to a single move or standard action, but if you move your movement speed is halved. So no charging if slowed.
Sithobi1 03-15-07, 09:50 PM	Slow halves your movement AND takes away an action.
Eric Anondson 03-15-07, 09:53 PM	Charge requires you to go at full speed. Mostly true.Charge has an explicit exception for surprise round and effects like slow that allow charge.Charge says this: "If you are able to take only a standard action or move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of double your speed). You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn (such as during a surprise round). So it is not an exception exclusive to surprise rounds. Any time a person is restricted to a standard action or move action in a round the exception applies. But the question still remains whether effects that simply bestow half movement count as hindering movement, such as blindness, the slow spell, or tanglefoot bags, etc. What catsclaw excerpted on charging could be argued that there is a specific context in that sentence. The context being "the path". You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). It could be argued that in the context of the sentence that it clearly refers to any quality about or object in "the path" cannot hinder your movement through the path, not necessarily anything about the character being affected by effects apart from the situation of the path. A slow spell or a tanglefoot bag or blindness halves movement speed, but by the rules it isn't clear that such an effect upon the character charging counts as "hindering movement" for the calculation of whether or not a charge is still possible.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-15-07, 09:57 PM	Mostly true.Charge says this: "If you are able to take only a standard action or move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of double your speed). You can't use this option unless you are restricted t otaking only a standard action or move action on your turn (such as during a surprise round). So it is not an exception exclusive to surprise rounds. Any time a person is restricted to a standard action or move action in a round, the exception applies. But the question still remains whether effects that simply bestow half movement count as hindering movement, such as blindness, the slow spell, or tanglefoot bags, etc. What catsclaw excerpted on charging could be argued that there is a specific context in that sentence. The context being "the path". You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). It could be argued that in the context of the sentence that it clearly refers to any quality about or object in "the path" cannot hinder your movement through the path, not necessarily anything about the character being affected by effects apart from the situation of the path. A slow spell or a tanglefoot bag or blindness halves movement speed, but by the rules it isn't clear that such an effect upon the character charging counts as "hindering movement" for the calculation of whether or not a charge is still possible. Well there is no question when it comes to tanglefoot bags. They cause the "entangled" condition which explicitly prevents charging.
Eric Anondson 03-15-07, 10:09 PM	Well there is no question when it comes to tanglefoot bags. They cause the "entangled" condition which explicitly prevents charging.True. Can't believe I forgot that. So, while the question is open whether a creature limited to half movement is prevented from charging, the entangled condition (PHB 308, DMG p. 300) explicitly says half movement AND no charging. So to answer castclaw with regard to tanglefoot bags, it's not the half movement, its the entangled condition that stops charging.
solbergb 03-15-07, 11:38 PM	So not only are you limited to a single move or standard action, but if you move your movement speed is halved. So no charging if slowed. oops, my bad. (never used that spell in actual play, never had it used against me successfully yet, so never really learned how it worked)
solbergb 03-15-07, 11:44 PM	So, while the question is open whether a creature limited to half movement is prevented from charging, . "You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). " "Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. (Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.)" One could argue that for a character with reduced movement, all squares slow movement. Certainly any terrain effects that reduce the speed of a character this is true. I'm trying to think of effects that reduce movement but don't also put some other condition on the character. Slow is about the only thing that comes to mind or hm....armor. Ok, I'm rethinking it a bit. Armor slows your movement but you are still allowed to run and charge. So...yeah, I think you're right. If you don't have a condition such as entangled that prevents a charge, and it isn't the environment that is slowing you down somehow, simply being reduced in speed does not prevent a charge. So a slowed guy can charge...because his reduced speed isn't hindering terrain, including reduced visibility, nor a condition that explicitly prevents charging, (fatigued, entangled etc) and he can do it as a std action because of this rule. Assuming he meets the other conditions of a charge (has to be able to see target, nobody in the way, etc).
Jay_Ibero_911 03-15-07, 11:47 PM	"You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). " "Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. (Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.)" One could argue that for a character with reduced movement, all squares slow movement. Certainly any terrain effects that reduce the speed of a character this is true. I'm trying to think of effects that reduce movement but don't also put some other condition on the character. Slow is about the only thing that comes to mind or hm....armor. Ok, I'm rethinking it a bit. Armor slows your movement but you are still allowed to run and charge. So...yeah, I think you're right. If you don't have a condition such as entangled that prevents a charge, and it isn't the environment that is slowing you down somehow, simply being reduced in speed does not prevent a charge. So a slowed guy can charge...because his reduced speed isn't hindering terrain, including reduced visibility, nor a condition that explicitly prevents charging, (fatigued, entangled etc) and he can do it as a std action because of this rule. Assuming he meets the other conditions of a charge (has to be able to see target, nobody in the way, etc). Of course, you have very short range on a partial charge while slowed. 1/2 movement instead of 2x movement, in most cases 15ft charge.
Gwumph 03-15-07, 11:48 PM	Also on the same argument. Anything that slows your movement is considered difficult terrain. Whether it's a grease spell, ice field, rocky ground, or in this case a gob of glue that landed in your path.
Timlagor 03-16-07, 12:23 AM	Also on the same argument. Anything that slows your movement is considered difficult terrain. Whether it's a grease spell, ice field, rocky ground, or in this case a gob of glue that landed in your path. If it's something physical then it does. Slow spell does allow a charge though because it changes your speed rather than limitting you to using a proportion of your speed (hmm not sure that actually works as a distinction in the rules -ah well). I can't think of anything else that reduces speed while still allowing a charge.
Southernskies 03-17-07, 08:26 AM	The main issue to keep in mind is the (quite significant) difference between speed penalties and difficult/hindered terrain. From PHB appendix pg.312 "Speed: The number of feet a creature can move when taking a move action." PHB pg.307 "Difficult Terrain: An area containing one or more features (such as rubble or undergrowth) that costs 2 squares instead of 1 square to move through." As noted in pg148, it also prevents a run or charge. Hmmm... had a big long post with examples and just found this one in the appendix: PHB pg309 "half speed: When restricted to moving at half speed, count each square moved into as 2 squaress and every square of diagonal movement as 3 squares. if you are restricted to half speed, you can't run or charge, not can you take a 5 foot step." Difficult terrain stacks with that as well (PHB pg 149; Double Movement Cost) Suddenly slow and tanglefoot bags just got really nastier, as they can no long 5 foot step either.
ShinAkuma2 03-17-07, 09:22 AM	Suddenly slow and tanglefoot bags just got really nastier, as they can no long 5 foot step either. Suddenly? :thinks: They've been doing that for years.
Eric Anondson 03-17-07, 11:23 AM	The main issue to keep in mind is the (quite significant) difference between speed penalties and difficult/hindered terrain.Well, in my mind this is an example of WotC hiding certain rules but explicitly repeating others. Sort of like the "catch on fire" by magic fire rules. They could take the space to mention it in the effect/spell description but instead leave it buried at the end of a Core book hoping someone finds it. Which would be fine if they were only consistent. :ahem: But thanks for digging out that obscure glossary find!
Timlagor 03-17-07, 10:26 PM	I allow people who have been Slowed to 5'-step. I think the wording is sufficiently different to treat it differently and I consider the 'spirit' to be clearly on the side of doing so -there is certainly RAW-room to rule the other way though.