Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Britt 02-10-07, 03:15 PM	Leadership Cohort Inclusion Cohorts may be used only if there are four or five players participating in the adventure. A table must contain at least four players and no more than six PCs. A cohort may only participate in an adventure if there is an open slot at the session and no other RPGA member wishes to participate. If too many players wish to bring cohorts, one or more of players must leave their cohorts at home. If the players cannot agree, the GM is free to rule that no cohorts are allowed. A cohort counts as a PC in every respect. Cohorts are normally controlled by the player. Use of cohorts should not disrupt the table, either by monopolizing roleplay or GM time, or by being played unrealistically. If the GM feels that the cohort is being controlled in an unrealistic manner, she may take over control of the cohort. Leadership Score The modifiers for cohorts under “Leader’s Reputation” (DMG 106) can be used only with special campaign documentation. Designing Your Cohort Cohorts are designed and restricted exactly like LG PCs, with the caveats listed below. Cohorts share their leader’s access for all rules options and items. Ability Scores: Unless specified otherwise, cohorts use the elite array for ability scores. Level: Cohorts starts at the maximum level allowable based on the rules in DMG 106. Adjust the cohort’s level whenever a change to your PC’s level or Leadership score would cause a change in the cohort’s level. Gold: Use Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127 to determine the cohort’s starting gold. Feats: Cohorts may not take or use Leadership or magic item creation feats. Region: Your cohort must have the same home region as your PC at all times. Advancement Unlike PCs, cohorts do not use ARs or TUs. Each time the cohort’s level changes, it gains or loses enough gold and/or equipment to bring its total character worth to the value listed on Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127. Compute total character worth by adding all coin on hand to the full market value of all equipment owned. When the cohort gains a level, it may use the Retraining options, paying only the gold cost out of their equipment value for that level. Death and Dismissal Cohorts may be raised from the dead as normal, though the cohort’s gold and equipment cannot be used to pay for the spell. If you choose to not raise your cohort when you are able and the GM believes the cohort would want to be raised, or if the GM believes you caused the death of your cohort, she should note it in the Play Notes section of your AR and you suffer a –2 penalty to your Leadership score from that point forward. If you wish, you may dismiss your cohort, but doing so incurs a -1 Aloofness penalty to your leadership score. If you dismiss your cohort or cannot or do not raise a cohort from the dead, you must spend 500 GP and 4 TUs searching for a new cohort. Level Loss and Cohorts If your PC’s level ever falls below 6th or less than two above your cohort’s minimum ECL, your cohort abandons you. Item Use Cohorts only loan their items to a PC in the direst of circumstances. A GM is free to override any exchange that treats the cohort as a magic item factory and not the trusted ally they are meant to be. At the end of the adventure, all the cohort's wealth and items revert back to the cohort. Followers Followers are not used in most LG events, although some special events may allow their use. Followers use the same creation rules as cohorts, except they may purchase equipment only from the PH and may not loan or be loaned equipment.
darrell_uk 02-10-07, 04:20 PM	Leadership Designing Your Cohort Cohorts are designed and restricted exactly like LG PCs, with the caveats listed below. Cohorts share their leader’s access for all rules options and items. Unlike PCs, cohorts do not use ARs or TUs. Each time the cohort’s level changes, it gains or loses enough gold and/or equipment to bring its total character worth to the value listed on Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127. Compute total character worth by adding all coin on hand to the full market value of all equipment owned. There are a couple of problems with these which need to be pointed out. If cohorts don't get ARs, they therefore only get gold when they level, so they cannot purchase anything at points other then these times, which will probably be MANY adventures apart. This basically doesn't work. (Sorry.) Secondly, if they completely share the PCs accesses, it removes the possibility of them doing different things to the PC. (For instance if they have a different patron in an adventure... hint hint.) And what happens in the circumstance when the PC is issued with at an "only one at each table" access?
Britt 02-10-07, 04:25 PM	There are a couple of problems with these which need to be pointed out. If cohorts don't get ARs, they therefore only get gold when they level, so they cannot purchase anything at points other then these times, which will probably be MANY adventures apart. This basically doesn't work. (Sorry.) Secondly, if they completely share the PCs accesses, it removes the possibility of them doing different things to the PC. (For instance if they have a different patron in an adventure... hint hint.) And what happens in the circumstance when the PC is issued with at an "only one at each table" access? 1. What is wrong with only buying equipment when the cohort levels? It keeps them static for a level, but that adds a good deal to simplicity. You only ever have to do ANYTHING to your cohort when your Leadership score would cause him to change levels. 2. Yes, and we don't consider that a problem. Cohorts are supposed to be following you around, not out doing their own adventuring as a PC. They wouldn't be cohorts then. 3. I'm not sure on the only one PC issues. Probably the master gets the access and the cohort doesn't, as giving it to the cohort as well would violate the spirit of the favor.
pedr 02-10-07, 04:33 PM	Has the 'no more than 10% in consumables' rule been removed? I can't see it in the text above. If that's the case, it would make the 'only equip once' thing work slightly better. On the other hand, I DM'd a game recently where a cohort rolled a nat-1 on a save and his cloak of charisma was destroyed. If he couldn't replace it that seems a significant penalty, for the rest of the (primary character's) level - and there isn't much point in the primary buying a replacement, as then they'll have two when he levels. Um, I think - still trying to think about the implications here!
darrell_uk 02-10-07, 04:34 PM	OK, say that I level 9th to 10th, and one way or another the cohort's character worth was only 200gp below the max for an 8th level cohort which included (to pick a number) 300gp cash. So the cohort gains the 200gp, giving him a total of 500 gp for all purchases (do they have to pay upkeep?) for whatever period of time it takes the PC to reach 11th level. If the cohorts wealth included any disposable items (a wand, and a couple of potions say) they're not going to be able to replace them during that period, let alone pick up anything that they gain access to.
Crazy Boro 02-10-07, 04:39 PM	And what about varying effects that can happen to a character through playing adventures? The cohort ignores any blessings/curses/circumstances by not having AR's? What was wrong with having AR's for cohorts?
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 04:45 PM	Leadership Designing Your Cohort Cohorts are designed and restricted exactly like LG PCs, with the caveats listed below. Cohorts share their leader’s access for all rules options and items. Advancement Unlike PCs, cohorts do not use ARs or TUs. Each time the cohort’s level changes, it gains or loses enough gold and/or equipment to bring its total character worth to the value listed on Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127. Compute total character worth by adding all coin on hand to the full market value of all equipment owned. When the cohort gains a level, it may use the Retraining options, paying only the gold cost out of their equipment value for that level. Since cohorts have no ARs, do they gain access to all the PC's rules options such as luck rerolls, bonuses to skill checks, etc? Or are cohorts forbidden any access to such things from ARs since they do not get ARs any longer? Likewise, if there is a TU cost to gain a benefit, are the cohorts allowed to access it? And does it go away when they level since they have no AR and way to track it? If a cohort used a favor to purchase equipment at a discount, does the discount value carry over to future 'reset' purchases (since we are forced to sell anything above the rather limited NPC gold value) or is the favor effectively lost? As well, what do we do with cohorts who already have (dozens of) ARs? Keep them but assume they have both their own access and anything the PC has, or do we get rid of the ARS How do we track if a Cohort gets a curse but the PC does not? Likewise, how do we track a beneficial effect? As well, how will cohorts cast spells that have an XP component if they have no ARs (and thus no xp calculation)? Are they now forbidden from casting XP related spells? Any reason why cohorts can't contribute gold to their own raises? Perhaps cap a percentage of what gold they can use, requiring that the rest come from the PC. Being as cohorts now have to reset their equipment every level and will always be weaker than PCs even if they are appropriate level for the APL, they will often be in more danger and die more. No continuity and no way to develop attachment to your character. Currently, a 10th level PC's projected value in the DMG is 88,000 gp. If you were to build a cohort at the same level, he would only have 16,000gp. A wizard cohort of that level could afford 2-3 pieces of minor equipment (not even a Headband +4, a common piece of equipment at that level), some potions and some minor equipment, including putting spells in his spellbook. The other option is for the PC to equip 2 characters, an expensive proposition and skewing his own effectiveness at his APL. EL assumes a correctly equipped character, and the PC equipping two characters is not correctly equipped. Perhaps a compromise on the GP value is in order, such as a percentage (75%-80%) of a PCs projected value at that level? It would still keep the cohorts under the curve but would allow the cohort to actually survive. As it stands, the NPC values are both inadequete for a continuing character, instead being in place for adversary characters to not overload the PCs fighting them with gold and looted equipment. As well, resetting cohorts on the arbitrary NPC value constantly depowers them, encouraging people to simply call a new cohort. With the cohort able to acquire (and upgrade) equipment over the course of levels, it would encourage continuity and discourage disposable cohorts. I understand cohorts are not replacements for PCs. However, they are often necessary owing to the vagrancies of mustering and running at conventions. While it may seem to aid bookkeeping and be less complicated, the current proposed text is punishing people for taking Leadership. Effectively, to avoid them dying repeatedly, we'll have to play down, equip two characters out of the gold of one PC and still have a limited use character. My cohort has often been the only cleric in my APL range from APL 10 and up, and I took the feat to assure that the Slot 0s and the con games I played in had a cleric (not a guarantee by any measure at many cons). The current proposal is especially restrictive, punishing those who take a feat. Please reconsider this text.
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 04:57 PM	1. What is wrong with only buying equipment when the cohort levels? It keeps them static for a level, but that adds a good deal to simplicity. You only ever have to do ANYTHING to your cohort when your Leadership score would cause him to change levels. 2. Yes, and we don't consider that a problem. Cohorts are supposed to be following you around, not out doing their own adventuring as a PC. They wouldn't be cohorts then. 3. I'm not sure on the only one PC issues. Probably the master gets the access and the cohort doesn't, as giving it to the cohort as well would violate the spirit of the favor. This completely removes the chance for a cohort to purchase Adventure only items, as well as pay for access to limited spells, items, classes, etc. As well, catastrophe in terms of destroyed equipment means one of three options 1) cohort adventures without, completely underpowered and possibly dies, thereby costing the PC more to raise or causing a Leadership penalty 2) call a new cohort, resulting in gold/TU loss and a Leadership penalty 3) don't use the cohort until you level, thereby losing the utility of the Leadership feat. Just because something is 'simple' doesn't make it better. In this case, it incredibly weakens the utility of the Leadership feat. Except for the most inept characters and players, I have never seen a cohort outshine a PC. Making them weaker and giving a cohort less continuity follows no logic I can see. If I'm missing something, please let me know so I can understand.
Britt 02-10-07, 05:02 PM	This completely removes the chance for a cohort to purchase Adventure only items, as well as pay for access to limited spells, items, classes, etc. As well, catastrophe in terms of destroyed equipment means one of three options 1) cohort adventures without, completely underpowered and possibly dies, thereby costing the PC more to raise or causing a Leadership penalty 2) call a new cohort, resulting in gold/TU loss and a Leadership penalty 3) don't use the cohort until you level, thereby losing the utility of the Leadership feat. Just because something is 'simple' doesn't make it better. In this case, it incredibly weakens the utility of the Leadership feat. Except for the most inept characters and players, I have never seen a cohort outshine a PC. Making them weaker and giving a cohort less continuity follows no logic I can see. If I'm missing something, please let me know so I can understand. If your cohort's equipment was destroyed before, you had the exact same problem. This isn't something new. In either case, the cohort still loses equipment value. And really, how often is equipment destroyed? This isn't some ubiquitous problem. It's going to be very rare. It rarely happens at all, and it would have to specifically happen to your cohort and at a point where it would be a long time before his level changes, AND be in a situation where your cohort would be used a lot. The convergence of all those possibilities is extremely unlikely, to put it lightly.
garyjohnson 02-10-07, 05:03 PM	1. What is wrong with only buying equipment when the cohort levels? It keeps them static for a level, but that adds a good deal to simplicity. You only ever have to do ANYTHING to your cohort when your Leadership score would cause him to change levels. Is this really a significant saving? There's enough other stuff you may have to do with a cohort (e.g. changing spells, tracking consumables used) that you may still have to do stuff with your cohort during/after adventures. Also, this means they can't replace equipment that gets damaged or lost until the PC levels up. 2. Yes, and we don't consider that a problem. Cohorts are supposed to be following you around, not out doing their own adventuring as a PC. They wouldn't be cohorts then. I think the OP was talking about stuff that happens during an adventure, when they are following you around - they aren't out there doing stuff "off-screen". I have seen adventures where there are multiple good employers, and you only get the favour of one of the employers: if the cohort has different preferences to the PC (because the player designed them with points of difference to the PC as a roleplaying aid), they could get the different favour (with the consequential variation in access) when they got their AR. Also, can cohorts still join metaorganisations? I've seen regional ARs where there's an additional benefit only available to members of metaorganisations, so the cohort got access that the PC didn't when they got the AR. 3. I'm not sure on the only one PC issues. Probably the master gets the access and the cohort doesn't, as giving it to the cohort as well would violate the spirit of the favor. What happens in those cases where the cohort did the right stuff in game to earn the favour, but the PC didn't or couldn't? For example, the favour goes to the character who made the DC 30 Diplomacy check, or broke the curse, or happens to be female, or whatever. On a somewhat related note, what happens to cohorts who have ARs with favours that are different to the ones the PC has access to, or who belonged to metaorganisations? How do players who have an "old-style" cohort convert the cohort across to the new way of doing things? Cheers, Gary Johnson
Timlagor 02-10-07, 05:15 PM	You seem to be trying to fix a problem along the lines of "cohorts are too powerful" or "there are too many cohorts taking too much table time in LG". Do you perceive such a problem? It really hasn't been my experience at all and I'd much rather see cohorts treated as much like PCs as possible. I don't think I've ever heard any complaint along these lines -even at 3rd-4th hand. (I don't have a character with Leadership though it is an option for one of my characters in due course due to certain events in his history.) Please bear in mind that Cohorts contribute to the APL calculations. Please could you at least delay such a restriction until you've thought about it some more? [this wasn't in the original draft so I imagine the discussion has been fairly limitted]
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 05:17 PM	If your cohort's equipment was destroyed before, you had the exact same problem. This isn't something new. In either case, the cohort still loses equipment value. And really, how often is equipment destroyed? This isn't some ubiquitous problem. It's going to be very rare. It rarely happens at all, and it would have to specifically happen to your cohort and at a point where it would be a long time before his level changes, AND be in a situation where your cohort would be used a lot. The convergence of all those possibilities is extremely unlikely, to put it lightly. Britt, if a piece of equipment is destroyed under the current rules, the cohort can spend gold to purchase a new item. Under the proposed rules, he would have to wait. As for a situation where a cohort is used alot... -Midnight Madness -Slot 0s for local cons -Core specials at higher APLs -regional conventions -gamedays Cohorts get more use than you think, I believe. And equipment gets destroyed pretty much every time a cohort rolls a one on a saving throw. Which is, about 1 in every 20 saving throws from a damaging spell. It's something to consider.
Britt 02-10-07, 05:21 PM	Britt, if a piece of equipment is destroyed under the current rules, the cohort can spend gold to purchase a new item. Under the proposed rules, he would have to wait. As for a situation where a cohort is used alot... -Midnight Madness -Slot 0s for local cons -Core specials at higher APLs -regional conventions -gamedays Cohorts get more use than you think, I believe. And equipment gets destroyed pretty much every time a cohort rolls a one on a saving throw. Which is, about 1 in every 20 saving throws from a damaging spell. It's something to consider. I used a cohort for about 7 levels and I played a whole lot, so I know how often cohorts get used. There are times when they get used more often, but that doesn't mean they get used a lot. And equipment will only get destroyed if your cohort is in a damaging reflex save spell, rolls a 1, doesn't have anything or anyone to get him a reroll, rolls an item on the chart that has any chance of getting destroyed (many don't), and takes enough damage to the item that it gets destroyed. I can probably count on one or two hands how many times I've ever seen items destroyed at any of my tables.
Britt 02-10-07, 05:21 PM	You seem to be trying to fix a problem along the lines of "cohorts are too powerful" or "there are too many cohorts taking too much table time in LG". Do you perceive such a problem? It really hasn't been my experience at all and I'd much rather see cohorts treated as much like PCs as possible. I don't think I've ever heard any complaint along these lines -even at 3rd-4th hand. (I don't have a character with Leadership though it is an option for one of my characters in due course due to certain events in his history.) Please bear in mind that Cohorts contribute to the APL calculations. Please could you at least delay such a restriction until you've thought about it some more? [this wasn't in the original draft so I imagine the discussion has been fairly limitted] No, we do not think cohorts are too powerful or take too much table time. We think that cohorts are too complicated and that there is too much paperwork involved for a fairly insignificant rules option.
garyjohnson 02-10-07, 05:24 PM	And equipment will only get destroyed if your cohort is in a damaging reflex save spell, rolls a 1, doesn't have anything or anyone to get him a reroll, rolls an item on the chart that has any chance of getting destroyed (many don't), and takes enough damage to the item that it gets destroyed. I can probably count on one or two hands how many times I've ever seen items destroyed at any of my tables. Or it gets sundered, or stolen (captured by slavers, anyone?), or rust monstered (preferably not a paragon rust monster of legend - thankfully haven't seen one of those in LG yet). Cheers, Gary Johnson
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 05:25 PM	I used a cohort for about 7 levels and I played a whole lot, so I know how often cohorts get used. There are times when they get used more often, but that doesn't mean they get used a lot. And equipment will only get destroyed if your cohort is in a damaging reflex save spell, rolls a 1, doesn't have anything or anyone to get him a reroll, rolls an item on the chart that has any chance of getting destroyed (many don't), and takes enough damage to the item that it gets destroyed. I can probably count on one or two hands how many times I've ever seen items destroyed at any of my tables. Well, considering the lack of equipment that cohorts get, of course they don't have as much chance of having their equipment destroyed. Giving cohorts equipment even close to their level, as well as letting them track equipment and not have to reset every level is a lot more simple than having to rebuild a character every level and a host of other non-intuitive rules. It would also allow for more survivable cohorts, thus not punishing PCs for having cohorts. Since you were seeking simplicity, it seems the best way to go.
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 05:29 PM	No, we do not think cohorts are too powerful or take too much table time. We think that cohorts are too complicated and that there is too much paperwork involved for a fairly insignificant rules option. Have there been complaints about the paperwork involved with cohorts? In what way are they too complicated that the suggested solution makes them even more just an extension of the PC in question rather than an individual character is more desirable? I've found that running my cohort is more complex than dealing with ARs and such. In fact, since I am used to running a character already, doing ARs for a cohort is rather easy since I am familiar with the process. Creating a new process is adding complexity, not simplifying. I'm really trying to understand this.
Britt 02-10-07, 05:30 PM	You already had to recalculate your cohort's worth every time he leveled under the LGCS for the past few iterations.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 05:30 PM	I'm not convinced that simplicity at the expense of power is something people want in their cohorts even if this way is simpler. I'm not aware of any complaints that cohorts are too complicated either. While cohorts may be relatively minor to the campaign as a whole I don't think they are minor to the players who run them.
Britt 02-10-07, 05:31 PM	Have there been complaints about the paperwork involved with cohorts? In what way are they too complicated that the suggested solution makes them even more just an extension of the PC in question rather than an individual character is more desirable? I've found that running my cohort is more complex than dealing with ARs and such. In fact, since I am used to running a character already, doing ARs for a cohort is rather easy since I am familiar with the process. Creating a new process is adding complexity, not simplifying. I'm really trying to understand this. Under the new system, you would have one sheet of paper for your cohort: a character sheet. Under the old system, you had dozens. You do not have to redo anything to your cohort at anytime other than when you level. If you use him, you just pull out the character sheet and you're ready to go. That is FAR simpler than the old rules.
Britt 02-10-07, 05:32 PM	I'm not convinced that simplicity at the expense of power is something people want in their cohorts even if this way is simpler. I'm not aware of any complaints that cohorts are too complicated either. While cohorts may be relatively minor to the campaign as a whole I don't think they are minor to the players who run them. Again, this is not decreasing the wealth of cohorts at all. You ALWAYS had to recalculate your cohort's wealth when he leveled and drop it down to the same NPC value chart that is being used here.
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 05:36 PM	Under the new system, you would have one sheet of paper for your cohort: a character sheet. Under the old system, you had dozens. You do not have to redo anything to your cohort at anytime other than when you level. If you use him, you just pull out the character sheet and you're ready to go. That is FAR simpler than the old rules. So what do we do with the old ARs, the access to limited spells we got, the curses, the save re-rolls, etc? Do we lose all that access? And as a side note, how does this affect the HL campaign (as my cohort will soon be in that)? The character wealth option grows dramatically, thus making the cohorts even less useful.
Britt 02-10-07, 05:38 PM	So what do we do with the old ARs, the access to limited spells we got, the curses, the save re-rolls, etc? Do we lose all that access? And as a side note, how does this affect the HL campaign (as my cohort will soon be in that)? The character wealth option grows dramatically, thus making the cohorts even less useful. We'd have to talk about it, but I presume you would just use your PC's access to everything. If you want your cohort to gain access to something that costs, pay for it with your PC. And the character wealth is exactly the same as it was before, so I don't see what the complaint is there.
Crazy Boro 02-10-07, 05:39 PM	No, we do not think cohorts are too powerful or take too much table time. We think that cohorts are too complicated and that there is too much paperwork involved for a fairly insignificant rules option. The paperwork is only as complicated as the paperwork for a PC. If there is trouble, then people would be having as much trouble as doing their PC's paperwork. The loss of ARs for paperwork would make them less personalized and generic. It'd be the guy who does everything like the rest of the party and ends up with no lasting consequences since they can't get any of the AR entries. No goods and no bads seems to me to neuter the cohort to even more farther behind a PC. "Yep, he took one for the team taking that curse. Good thing he doesn't get an AR." or "Yeah, he was able to help out and get things done different from everyone else, but no AR to show any accomplishment." Seems like I'd need to rename my cohort to "follower in danger." He'd be getting leveled up and some goods, but he'd be a usable follower since he is helping out, but he gets no ARs and good or bad consequences. Maybe you should just give the option for people to do it the "simple" way. I know I want my cohort more personalized than to be the head follower. They'll end up just a static NPC with the new system. I want them to be an adventuring partner as they grow through the goods and the bads along with the PC.
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 05:51 PM	Again, this is not decreasing the wealth of cohorts at all. You ALWAYS had to recalculate your cohort's wealth when he leveled and drop it down to the same NPC value chart that is being used here. It is decreasing wealth if we were able to play cohorts a great deal and gain more gold than what we would get at the level-up. A particularly easy thing to do, even with the half gold given to cohorts. Three adventures for an 8th level cohort at APL 10 would put him over the NPC value for 9th level. Any more and he has even more extra gold. The disparity grows at higher levels, increasing the gold gap dramatically and making the cohort less effective. At the very least, please move away from the woefully underpowered NPC chart for gold to something more equitable and survivable for cohorts. The original use of that chart was for equipping antagonists of PCs, so that upon the NPC death they would not flood the PCs with gold and equipment. The equipment values are in line with the average treasure value of an appropriate encounter of the PC's level. To give that low value to cohorts and expect it to carry them throughout a complete level is incredibly harsh. In turn, it effects the PC as he either has to split his wealth between 2 characters in order to keep his cohort alive or get used to calling new cohorts or paying for raises.
Britt 02-10-07, 05:54 PM	It is decreasing wealth if we were able to play cohorts a great deal and gain more gold than what we would get at the level-up. Except the old rules made you lose any excess as well. If the intent was to keep the cohort within the limits of that table, which it is hard to imagine it had any other intent, how does it make sense that we should allow cohorts to exceed that amount for some adventures?
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 05:55 PM	We'd have to talk about it, but I presume you would just use your PC's access to everything. If you want your cohort to gain access to something that costs, pay for it with your PC. And the character wealth is exactly the same as it was before, so I don't see what the complaint is there. That's the problem: You shouldn't have to split your PC wealth to equip another character. This ends up both punishing the player for taking Leadership as well as lowering the character's effective equipment value for his level. The character wealth is not the same since it is not for your character. It's for the cohort. They are separate characters. For favors such as luck rerolls, etc, do we have to split those, or do we get one for each character?
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 05:59 PM	Except the old rules made you lose any excess as well. If the intent was to keep the cohort within the limits of that table, which it is hard to imagine it had any other intent, how does it make sense that we should allow cohorts to exceed that amount for some adventures? The table is the problem in this regard. It incredibly under equips the cohort, making their survival very suspect. It's why I've been suggesting an alternate calculation and value for the cohort value. Even half the value of the PC wealth table would be a godsend...
Britt 02-10-07, 06:02 PM	The table is the problem in this regard. It incredibly under equips the cohort, making their survival very suspect. It's why I've been suggesting an alternate calculation and value for the cohort value. Even half the value of the PC wealth table would be a godsend... So if it was 1/2 the PC value, would it still be a problem that you only reequip at level change? I'm not saying this is changing, just asking.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 06:09 PM	I would think so. If you want to really simplify it you could have Cohorts reset their equipment at the end of every adventure.
Crazy Boro 02-10-07, 06:09 PM	So if it was 1/2 the PC value, would it still be a problem that you only reequip at level change? I'm not saying this is changing, just asking. Could there also be a possibility to atleast hand out an AR to a cohort that would be standard with what happened in the mod, but no xp/gp gained if we're going with this new system? That way they can get access to what consequences happened for them in a mod? (Curses, Blessings, Favors, Disfavors, etc. All the kind of stuff that would be in the top.)
darrell_uk 02-10-07, 06:16 PM	Half of the PC's actual value, or half of the expected value of a PC of the cohort's level? Timlagor's suggesting of reset each adventure would allow some form of cash flow for the character, allowing for the replenishing of consumables.
Britt 02-10-07, 06:17 PM	Half of the PC's actual value, or half of the expected value of a PC of the cohort's level? Timlagor's suggesting of reset each adventure would allow some form of cash flow for the character, allowing for the replenishing of consumables. Half of the value on the chart for the cohort's level. Which, after level 5, is higher than the NPC value all the time. And no, you are not getting XE style resetting consumables.
darrell_uk 02-10-07, 06:23 PM	I actually don't know what you mean by the "XE style reset...", I'm guessing it's something to do with another of the RPGA campaigns. To be honest, I'm more concerned withe the idea of a cohort being given an allowance when they level to cover the entire level, than whatever the value is set at.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 06:27 PM	Half of the value on the chart for the cohort's level. Which, after level 5, is higher than the NPC value all the time. And no, you are not getting XE style resetting consumables. I don't think it's reasonable to take away all cash gain but keep all cash loss.
Britt 02-10-07, 06:33 PM	What about banning purchase of disposable items and having cohorts reset at the end of each adventure? That's the only way you would get resetting cohorts, and I doubt that would happen.
darrell_uk 02-10-07, 07:03 PM	I'd be happier to swallow that, though I doubt that those with a spellcasting cohort would. To be perfectly honest though, I'd much prefer that record keeping for cohorts stay exectly the way that it was; character sheet, MIL, ARs, the works. I can't help thinking that if these changes were so important then they should have been in the draft rewrite rather than added on the boards halfway through the descussion period.
pedr 02-10-07, 07:06 PM	I agree with Darrell, for what it's worth. Yes, cohorts are slightly complicated, but to significantly change the way in which they interact with the campaign by removing their individual records of what they've played could have some significant effects which I don't think we've had time to fully work out. It would, in my opinion, be best left until next year, if it is still seen as a problem.
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 07:23 PM	So if it was 1/2 the PC value, would it still be a problem that you only reequip at level change? I'm not saying this is changing, just asking. I think these suggestions would solve 98% of all problems :) -Half (or 60% or 75%) of the chart from page 135 of the DMG (Table 5-1 Character Wealth by Level). I think 75% would be fair, I threw 50% out there to avoid sticker shock :) They have less wealth than a PC, but still can be effective. -Reequipping at level change, allowing favors of purchase etc to count towards the value (if the cohort got an AR that allowed a 10% discount on an item, they can purchase the same item again with the same discount) and carry from level to level. Same as a favor of access, they would be considered to have that access when they reequip. - Give Cohorts ARs for purposes of good/bad effects, favors, etc. It also lets you keep track of what adventures your cohort played in, which sometimes comes up in modules. - Allow wizard cohorts the option to scribe scrolls into spellbooks (assuming they don't have a Boccob's Book) and have to pay it on their next level up. This allows them to trade spells and have the access. - Cohorts can join metaorgs. I'm still trying to think of a way for Cohorts to get and use consumables throughout the level, though. Anyone have ideas outside of the horrid XE model (potions resetting each module)? I find my cohort (a cleric) doesn't really use many consumables, and I don't think lots of cohorts do. This still presents a small problem of them getting stuff on Adventure access if they can't buy during play, but there's a good chance they will still be within 3 adventures when they level since they don't play as much. Perhaps allow them access on their next level up? This would go a long way to making cohorts survivable, fun and less burdensome on accounting. BTW, you are doing an excellent job Britt. :)
Timlagor 02-10-07, 07:30 PM	I'd be happier to swallow that, though I doubt that those with a spellcasting cohort would. To be perfectly honest though, I'd much prefer that record keeping for cohorts stay exectly the way that it was; character sheet, MIL, ARs, the works. I can't help thinking that if these changes were so important then they should have been in the draft rewrite rather than added on the boards halfway through the descussion period. I agree wholeheartedly. My suggestion was only there as a possible compromise; not my preferred option. I really think that since most (almost all) the extra complication you would remove lands on the guy who choses to take the Leadership Feat, it's just not a problem. (if a judge can't handle an extra AR then there's probably something else wrong) If I think of some other compromise I'll be back but don't count on it ;)
Crazy Boro 02-10-07, 07:31 PM	With consumables, you can just have the value of any bought subtract from their per level value till when they level up. For example, if they bought a wand of CLW and have a max value of 16k gp, they end up with a max of 15,250 till next level. Then they buy a potion of pro evil 3 adventures later before level up, then it drops it to a max of 15,200 till they hit the next level. That would keep them from rebuying consumables left and right since they count against their max value despite them being gone. I do like a lot of what CaiasWard has brought into a full list and support that kind of a change compared to the original.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 07:32 PM	Caias: if they have more wealth replenishing consummables is less of an issue. I still don't like the change though. It would make me less likely to take Leadership (which was iffy anyway) which seems rather counterproductive in a change designed primarily for simplification.
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 07:40 PM	Caias: if they have more wealth replenishing consummables is less of an issue. I still don't like the change though. It would make me less likely to take Leadership (which was iffy anyway) which seems rather counterproductive in a change designed primarily for simplification. I'd like the rules as written in the DMG for Cohorts, but that doesn't seem an option. My suggestion is the best compromise I can design in limited time without the authority to enforce things :) It's up to the Circle to hopefully run with what I wrote. It's a compromise, but it allows for a combination of the simplicity they were seeking and equity for the characters and cohorts.
Lupo 02-10-07, 08:47 PM	Again, this is not decreasing the wealth of cohorts at all. You ALWAYS had to recalculate your cohort's wealth when he leveled and drop it down to the same NPC value chart that is being used here. i had a cohort loosing FOUR weapons in one encounter, adventures i played lately had a tendency to destroy items. with the new rules only caster cohorts would be easy playable, all types of frontliners that depend on gear would face severe losses. the AR distance at the level where cohorts are used (above 6 character level) are some five to ten adventures. the vision of playing so many adventures or even half of them (those with the cohort playable) without a way to replace destroyed weapons and armor is not to promising. ciao martin m. <edit> actually one is decreasing the cohorts gp value from the point of the cohort's last leveling downwards till the next level. during the same time a character's wealth is slowly going upwards. so there is a widening gap over the time UNTIL the next level of the cohort. adding that sometimes a cohort doesn't gain a level when the character with leadership levels the gap might be severe.
garyjohnson 02-10-07, 09:18 PM	Under the new system, you would have one sheet of paper for your cohort: a character sheet. Under the old system, you had dozens. You do not have to redo anything to your cohort at anytime other than when you level. If you use him, you just pull out the character sheet and you're ready to go. That is FAR simpler than the old rules. Cohorts wouldn't have a MIL? That seems to open the door for a lot more abuse than is possible under the current system, IMO. I think it's fair to say that I'm not seeing the value of simplifying the paperwork for managing cohorts. Managing a cohort is like managing a PC, except you have fewer bits of paper (because they don't play every adventure your PC plays) and you have to recalculate their gold when your PC levels. The latter still happens in the proposed revision, and the former is the same as what you have to do for your PC every adventure - so why is it "too complicated"? Any player who takes the Leadership feat knows they have to manage the paperwork for two characters - IMO, designing the cohort is much more complicated than filling in two ARs at the end of each session. Finally, I think taking away the ability of the cohort to have ARs change the character increases the risk of players seeing cohorts as "generic" characters, in much the same way as many players see the animal companions of druids and rangers as "generic" (for example, PCs who call their animal companion "Wolf Twelve"). If the goal is to have more players see their cohorts as distinct characters, things that simplify cohorts so that they have less in common with PCs don't seem to me to contribute to that goal. YMMV, of course. Cheers, Gary Johnson
Golorious 02-10-07, 10:08 PM	I personally think this is a great resolution. There were always issues with the cohort's favors and things like that. Also I have seen some issues where favors were burned by cohorts to save the party instead of the players favor. Which was kind of cheesy but it was legal(ish). This will eliminate that issue. It is a cohort; everything they do or earn should come through the leader. They are cohorts not PC's they should take a more secondary role if they earn an accolade or disfavor it should be applied to the leader. Also if there is a favor that the cohort would want (access to a prc, spell etc) then the leader now has to pay the cost if there is one, which I think is good. I rarely have seen cohorts run out of TUs so to them this was a non issue. The leader is responsible for their upkeep and stuff it just makes a lot of sense to me. Not having them need AR's really simplifies all of their access issues removes odd favor uses. It is less hassle and paper work. I think it is great. If a cohorts' items get destroyed then that sucks but in a few AR's they'll get all new eq anyway. Even within a few AR's they likely would not be able to afford anything expensive before they level. They were getting 1/2 gold, which isn't much till apl 12 or 14. If their equipment re-loaded at every adventure I think that would lead to an abuse of consumable items. Ohhh let me use my cohort’s wand, he will get a new one next time anyway. I'm not so okay with that. There are some potent wands out there with only 10 charges that could get abused this way. If they didn't buy any consumable items then I'm fine with it I suppose. If a cohort needs certain equipment to be functional then they were not designed as well as they could have been. Generally cohorts are support characters and they usually need less equipment. I don't see a problem with the amount of money they receive. It isn't a lot but a poorly equipped cohort is better then playing with 4 or 5. Great Job Brit! :bravo:
Mommy was an Orc 02-10-07, 10:23 PM	How does the cohorts only changing equipment upon levelling work with adventure access that the PC acquires - if my imaginary cohort archer finds access to a +1 sacred bow, but I don't level quickly enough, does he still keep access? How about favors my PC has access to - I can't exercise it for my cohort? I mention this, because this seems to really cut off access to cohorts - which strongly favors caster cohorts. I like the idea of no ARs, but I'd suggest the following: When a cohort levels, that's when it has to use any adventure access the player gained in the past level. A cohort or a player can exercise a favor that the player has. That makes it used for both of them.
JamesMaissen 02-10-07, 10:56 PM	No, we do not think cohorts are too powerful or take too much table time. We think that cohorts are too complicated and that there is too much paperwork involved for a fairly insignificant rules option. By making rules for cohorts different from that of players you will ADD to the complications and confusions with cohorts and not remove them. To me the MOST annoying thing about cohorts is the need to calculate the wealth. This was a MAJOR pain back when PCs had to do so, and it's a major pain now. It's one thing that had me stop playing my first character with a cohort and I dread leveling with the other character that has one for the amount of work this requires. The other option is to keep a running track of total wealth, but that is FAR more work than filling out ARs. Having Cohorts follow as much of the same rules as a PC will make it easier for players to understand how to manage them. That is where the greatest confusion will lie with them. Filling out a second AR is nothing compared to keeping track of their total wealth. How about somewhere in the middle? Cohorts start with NPC wealth, gain gold normally and gain xp as per core rules (fraction of their level to their master's level). When a player desires he can spend TUs and gold (like hiring a new cohort) and update his cohort to the leadership score. Again, if the goal is to make cohorts simple then make the rules for them as close to normal as possible. People then only have to learn a few differences and the more minor these differences the easier it will be to maintain one. -James
CaiasWard 02-10-07, 11:09 PM	I personally think this is a great resolution. There were always issues with the cohort's favors and things like that. Also I have seen some issues where favors were burned by cohorts to save the party instead of the players favor. Which was kind of cheesy but it was legal(ish). This will eliminate that issue. It is a cohort; everything they do or earn should come through the leader. They are cohorts not PC's they should take a more secondary role if they earn an accolade or disfavor it should be applied to the leader. Also if there is a favor that the cohort would want (access to a prc, spell etc) then the leader now has to pay the cost if there is one, which I think is good. I rarely have seen cohorts run out of TUs so to them this was a non issue. The leader is responsible for their upkeep and stuff it just makes a lot of sense to me. Not having them need AR's really simplifies all of their access issues removes odd favor uses. It is less hassle and paper work. I think it is great. If a cohorts' items get destroyed then that sucks but in a few AR's they'll get all new eq anyway. Even within a few AR's they likely would not be able to afford anything expensive before they level. They were getting 1/2 gold, which isn't much till apl 12 or 14. If their equipment re-loaded at every adventure I think that would lead to an abuse of consumable items. Ohhh let me use my cohort’s wand, he will get a new one next time anyway. I'm not so okay with that. There are some potent wands out there with only 10 charges that could get abused this way. If they didn't buy any consumable items then I'm fine with it I suppose. If a cohort needs certain equipment to be functional then they were not designed as well as they could have been. Generally cohorts are support characters and they usually need less equipment. I don't see a problem with the amount of money they receive. It isn't a lot but a poorly equipped cohort is better then playing with 4 or 5. Great Job Brit! :bravo: Do you have a cohort? I think many of those who have cohorts would disagree with you. As for using cohort's favors, it's a favor just like anything else, spent within in the rules and certainly in the spirit of heroic fantasy that the retainer/friend extends himself to save the whole party. Nothing cheesy, to be sure. Playing with a cohort that is ill-equipped is no fun either. And the same statement could be said about a PC, you're not designed that well if you need certain equipment like a Headband of Intellect, magic armor, or a vest of resistance... D&D assumes that a character will have certain equipment at a certain level. If he doesn't, he's below his effective character level and of far less utility. This is supported by the core rules, and my suggestions are designed to make this more equitable. Having the PC pay the cost for the cohort is punishing the PC for taking a feat. Being forced to split your gold piece wealth for a part-time benefit to not only yourself but the rest of the gaming community in which you are in is not very fair.
tapelib 02-11-07, 12:06 AM	Half of the value on the chart for the cohort's level. Which, after level 5, is higher than the NPC value all the time. And no, you are not getting XE style resetting consumables. Britt, I think 50% of PC value is better for cohorts than the present NPC chart, which is woefully inadequate and requires all the present shenanigans (gaining GP through the advnture that places them way over these numbers, at least until they level, or burning 10% of their value in consumables every adventure, knowing the AR will replenish this, etc.) to keep them from being even more ineffective. Between their present 22 Stat Points and their fractional GP, they are 1 to 2 levels less powerful than an equvalent PC of their level, which starts 2 or more levels less than their PC leader. This makes them usually APL -3 or more, which LG has ruled is so far below the APL as to be fairly meaningless in combat, which is why a similar PC only gets 1/2 XP in these situations. After all, the PC is unlikely to be pulling his weight in combat. Well, the present cohorts are also not capable of pulling their weight, even for their level, in combat. So yes, please give them more gold per level. I agree with an earlier reply that 75% of PC value would be better, but anything would be better than what it is right now. I also think that having the gold reset only upon the cohort leveling is fine. If they use some to purchase consumables, then they are down that amount of gold value until the next reset, several PC AR's down the line. That's the trade-off for a consumable. You get a big bang for your buck now, but you're out the value of what could have been a permanent item from then until next level. Thanks for listening, Ed Tostanoski
Dirk_De_Klerk 02-11-07, 01:01 AM	I've played a character with Leadership for three years now and I think these changes are a great idea. My cohort is not meant to be better than any of the "real" characters at the table but manages to survive and usually add value to the game. More cash for my cohort would be nice but not essential. Not having to mess with ARs is a good move. The only question it raises for me is joining metaorgs and favors from ARs. Does this mean: No metaorgs for cohorts? Cohorts are in all the same metaorgs as their leaders (could be a bit strange) Just metaorg documents only for cohorts? Where do cohorts keep information about PrC qualification such as meeting an outsider, defeating an enemy through force of arms, etc. What lifestyle are cohorts living if they don't use cash? Thinking about it you could give an AR to cohorts, just putting a dash in the gold/xp/TU calculation boxes. That way they would still have a history while keeping it simple. It could even just be a simple log sheet (wow, back to year 1!) I suppose but adding in another form would seem counter productive if the idea is to make things simpler. Hugh
Eric Anondson 02-11-07, 02:01 AM	At first read, I was about to get my dander up about the changes, but then I thought about my character's cohort. As far as tracking wealth goes, I did just this if not worse. My cohort wizard was running around with the same exact equipment from level 10, to level 11, and level 12! I never bought anything for him ever as he leveled up because knowing that he'd just lose it as the wealth was reset was a disincentive for me to bother. :) But I think the tracking of ARs is important to keep for cohorts. My cohort wizard got membership in the Drinkers metaorg through one, plus other favors for that metaorg through some other adventures. If cohorts are to ditch ARs would they also get the same favors as the primary? There was another adventure where the characters are offered to be instructed (get access to) in one of a list of feats. My cohort chose a Sudden metamagic feat (he is a wizard), while my primary chose a feat out of the Miniature's handbook. I think this kind of tracking of choice should be preserved for cohorts. From my experience, it was the wealth tracking that sucked, not the AR collection.
Britt 02-11-07, 02:57 AM	Here's some tentative new text. We have talked about wealth and it is likely staying with the NPC value chart. TUs and ARs Unlike PCs, cohorts do not use TUs; they are assumed to have enough available TUs to cover any expenditures in a year. ARs do not need to be used for a cohort unless he received a negative effect, such as a curse. You may keep other ARs for your cohort if you wish to track favors or other effects, but you are not required to do so. Do not track TUs, XP, or GP on these ARs, as they are irrelevant. Advancement Each time the cohort’s level changes, it gains or loses enough gold and/or equipment to bring its total character worth to the value listed on Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127. Compute total character worth by adding all coin on hand to the full market value of all equipment owned. When the cohort gains a level, it may use the Retraining options, paying only the gold cost out of their equipment value for that level.
ranagrande 02-11-07, 04:55 AM	The new text solves all the problems I had with the former version but never got around to posting. Thanks!
CaiasWard 02-11-07, 07:31 AM	Here's some tentative new text. We have talked about wealth and it is likely staying with the NPC value chart. TUs and ARs Unlike PCs, cohorts do not use TUs; they are assumed to have enough available TUs to cover any expenditures in a year. ARs do not need to be used for a cohort unless he received a negative effect, such as a curse. You may keep other ARs for your cohort if you wish to track favors or other effects, but you are not required to do so. Do not track TUs, XP, or GP on these ARs, as they are irrelevant. Advancement Each time the cohort’s level changes, it gains or loses enough gold and/or equipment to bring its total character worth to the value listed on Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127. Compute total character worth by adding all coin on hand to the full market value of all equipment owned. When the cohort gains a level, it may use the Retraining options, paying only the gold cost out of their equipment value for that level. Britt, I'd ask you to seriously reconsider the wealth option. After about 7th level, a cohort's survivability ends up nosediving without a semblance of appropriate equipment. Instead of a character able to stand up at least in part at the APL, it becomes a character that is a liability to the party just as if a very low level character were dragged along at the APL, and also means the PC will not have that gold to spend on his own equipment. This, in turn, will lower his own effectiveness. As an example, do you believe that a 10th level PC can survive with 16k of equipment? Assuming a wizard, the character has the following items: - Cloak of Resistance + 1 - Headband +2 - Ring of Protection +1 - Amulet of Health +2 This would leave 3k for scrolls to put into his spellbook, including scribing costs: he certainly could not afford a Boccob's Blessed Book. No Pearls of Power, no Bracers of Armor, no Lesser Extend Rod, let alone consumables. This is what the cohort is given at the moment to try to survive a Living Greyhawk adventure. A cleric cohort will also have to purchase armor and weapons. Spontaneous casters have it a bit easier, but still have the stat item requirements and protective item. Forget front line characters, or an archer. A +1 Holy Bow is worth more than the character. Even an Bane Bow is 8.3k+, not including any strength mods. Armor and shields are several thousand gold for even +1, and a good melee weapon is on par with the cost of the bow. Of course, the cohort can do with lesser equipment, but he'll not contribute to the party in a meaningful way by being an average of 4 points of attack bonus less than an equivalent PC (assuming -1 point from dex/str and weapon due to substandard equipment and 2 from level) or a half-dozen spells short (counting Pearls of power and lacking spells due to higher ability scores). At 12th level, this gets even worse. The cohort has 27k, enough to buy a +4 stat bump item... and 9k left over. He can buy mundane armor, maybe a cloak +2 and an Amulet of Health +2. He'll need it, since he has no bonuses to AC from Rings of Protection, an Ioun Stone or the like. Alternately, he can stick to a +2 item and buy a few Pearls of Power. He is still going to be underpowered, even a liability to the party. If he's the six character slot at a table, you might be better off not bringing him since he coud bump the APL up. Even if you don't want to consider that high a level for a cohort, consider even a 6th level cohort. He has 5600 gold. A magic weapon will take more than a third of that from him. Magic armor and shield will remove another third. That leaves a Cloak of Resistance +1 and a few potions. All around, the cohort is terribly underequipped for is level and the danger of Living Greyhawk. Of course, the PC can buy all the stuff for the cohort, limiting his own character wealth and lowering his effectiveness in the times he does not have the cohort available to him. Then the cohort is not a benefit as a Feat indicates but a detriment, requiring you to fund it with a fair amount of gold for limited use. Even giving the cohort a few pieces of decent (not exceptional) equipment will be expensive, and it means it is not equipment you will have or will be able to use since it most likely things designed to assist another class. All so that, part of the time, you can have another character to help out the party IC and the players OOC. All for taking Leadership for, in many cases, roleplaying or logistic purposes (such as needed a certain character type for slot 0s and in low-density play areas). Another side-effect of increased cohort wealth is going to be in versatility. Cohorts aren't going to be cheesed out to eke out every advantage since they are ill-equipped. Rather, with enough equipment they will tend to be built like normal PCs. Many rules abuses stem from shortcomings in the system, and an unrealistic amount of wealth for what amounts as the right-hand man of a hero is certainly a shortcoming. This will force players to build cohorts ruthlessly in order to simply keep them alive. A more natural amount of wealth will end up tempering this and actually make the cohort a character rather than a feat. Please reconsider the GP level for cohorts to a more reasonable and fair level. The current levels are prohibitive, punishing and are based on a chart meant for NPC antagonists to avoid giving the PCs who kill them an excessive amount of treasure in a single encounter. It's not a chart for a trusted friend of a PC who shares in the fortune and glory of the hero, and certainly not a chart designed to equip characters that would be 'on-stage' for extended periods such as a cohort. Thanks.
darrell_uk 02-11-07, 07:45 AM	Thanks Britt, this is looking like we are going to be able to come up with a workable compromise. I like the "optional" variant on ARs, I'll keep them myself (if it does go this way), if nothing else it gives me a history of what the cohort plays in. I'm not as worried as some about what the wealth level is set at, after all table 4-23 is what we've had to use for a couple of years now. Higher would be nice, but then of course it would. :) I have a new query though... (Sorry.) So, a cohort gets gold when they level up. What type of AR (for want of a better term) did this gold arrive on for the purposes of access? e.g. A cohort has Regional access to non-phb equipment, a meta-org say. Can they use this access? Maybe they have to wait until they actually play in a Regional adventure before they can purchase the items (as now), but how is this recorded/recognised? They don't record cash movement on their ARs (assuming they have any) any more.
JamesMaissen 02-11-07, 08:29 AM	Here's some tentative new text. We have talked about wealth and it is likely staying with the NPC value chart. TUs and ARs Unlike PCs, cohorts do not use TUs; they are assumed to have enough available TUs to cover any expenditures in a year. ARs do not need to be used for a cohort unless he received a negative effect, such as a curse. You may keep other ARs for your cohort if you wish to track favors or other effects, but you are not required to do so. Do not track TUs, XP, or GP on these ARs, as they are irrelevant. Advancement Each time the cohort’s level changes, it gains or loses enough gold and/or equipment to bring its total character worth to the value listed on Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127. Compute total character worth by adding all coin on hand to the full market value of all equipment owned. When the cohort gains a level, it may use the Retraining options, paying only the gold cost out of their equipment value for that level. I'm curious, how are having all these extra, special rules for cohorts, needing to track total wealth and having to deal with access issues and all that make working with a cohort easier? People know how to fill out ARs as they have to do so for their real characters. Having wierd exceptions for cohorts is certain to cause confusion and dissatisfaction. Notice one poster above saying how he simply gave up on purchasing items for his cohort from wealth tracking needs. I know that was one reason I stopped playing my cleric character who had a cohort.. the rules were just so annoying. This new solution imho goes the wrong way. If this is about ease and simplicity then make it simple. Have players use rules that they already know and are comfortable with. Look at all the issues already raised here. This will reoccur for player after player as simply is the nature of LG. The end result will be more work to understand the new system and how it differs from a normal player. The most annoying thing about tracking a cohort is tracking total wealth. Please remove that. -James
Evanta 02-11-07, 09:36 AM	Here's some tentative new text. We have talked about wealth and it is likely staying with the NPC value chart. TUs and ARs Unlike PCs, cohorts do not use TUs; they are assumed to have enough available TUs to cover any expenditures in a year. ARs do not need to be used for a cohort unless he received a negative effect, such as a curse. You may keep other ARs for your cohort if you wish to track favors or other effects, but you are not required to do so. Do not track TUs, XP, or GP on these ARs, as they are irrelevant. Advancement Each time the cohort’s level changes, it gains or loses enough gold and/or equipment to bring its total character worth to the value listed on Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127. Compute total character worth by adding all coin on hand to the full market value of all equipment owned. When the cohort gains a level, it may use the Retraining options, paying only the gold cost out of their equipment value for that level. 10% of which can be used in consumables I guess? Is one of the following possible to make cohorts less weak? 1. Let the cohort be considered as a NPC character (i.e. when calculating APLs, they are character level -1), this would take into account their inferior gear (NPC gear value only) and stats. 2. Increase % of consumables to 15% or 20%.
Paradox1 02-11-07, 10:03 AM	Its amazing how difficult using cohorts at time has become even more so when they need to level. Three times when I leveled my cohort they lost some wealth due to the new table. This playing on average about 3 times during each of the master's lvl. The loss of wealth or trying to use it some fashion to make it usable like church donation struck me kinda wrong. I do value my cohort have paid to raise her twice. During adventures I purchased scrolls and would give them to her at the next table she played. She has a cert child and spent time with Fey when her master would rather knock fey about with large iron objects. I paid for her to attend a wizard school full-time for year. I do not mind doing that as I enjoy having her play when she can and consider her valuable and useful. Doing the ARs for her has never been an issue for me or for few others who i know have cohort. I would prefer .. 1) Cohort not lose wealth when they lvl but they either keep what they have above the magic number or adjust up to next lvl if under that value. 2) If you don't like item 1 above, as someone suggested use the PC table and just half the wealth of the PC table would be nice to have a bit of extra room. Are cohorts not treated as PC instead of NPCs under most circumstances? 3) Let cohort keep their ARs. The favors and other items on their could be useful to cohort. They are part of character and cohort's history. David O'Connor
solbergb 02-11-07, 12:37 PM	1. What is wrong with only buying equipment when the cohort levels? It keeps them static for a level, but that adds a good deal to simplicity. You only ever have to do ANYTHING to your cohort when your Leadership score would cause him to change levels. Well, #1, the cohort doesn't get any access favors or non-access favors of his own. #2, you can't replace the 10% of consumables that you bought when he leveled. #3, they never have an opportunity to buy adventure access stuff that they should have access to as permanent items. #4, and most important, you don't get any of the OTHER favors - Like the ones that let you reroll a "1" three times ever, or cast a minor spell-like ability once ever because they did a favor for a god, or the ones where you get lifestyle bonuses in a certain city, or can get an in-module advantage if you have favor of a certain noble house or grant access to limited spells, PRC's etc on a one-shot basis. (you can't use master's favors if using them means using them up..it isn't clear even now if you can use master's favors EVER for a cohort. I'd expect not) Cohorts need their own ARs. If you do implement this rule, I request that you make it optional, or allow us to retrain away leadership. My character's cohort has no interest in adventuring when she doesn't share in the curses and favors of her associate. I came up with an incharacter reason on why her wealth keeps getting siphoned away, but there's limits. There is no way I can "roleplay" a character participating, in, say, half the adventures with the other character and being identical in all respects to how she was four adventures ago, then suddenly changing. Characters in a living campaign are affected by every module they play. There's a lot more on the AR than the xp total and the gp total.
CaiasWard 02-11-07, 01:51 PM	1) Cohort not lose wealth when they lvl but they either keep what they have above the magic number or adjust up to next lvl if under that value. 2) If you don't like item 1 above, as someone suggested use the PC table and just half the wealth of the PC table would be nice to have a bit of extra room. Are cohorts not treated as PC instead of NPCs under most circumstances? 3) Let cohort keep their ARs. The favors and other items on their could be useful to cohort. They are part of character and cohort's history. David O'Connor Hi David :) Having a cohort is diminishing returns at higher levels. It gets more expensive to keep a cohort in play and survivable and the need for one is often higher due to player scarcity for higher level play, especially for particular character types. I've worked through the numbers on this in my previous posts; I hope they get read and I hope I was clear enough in showing the level disparity. Leadership shouldn't be 'adopt an orphan' but 'attract a competent adventurer to assist you. Leadership shouldn't be a liability to the player but a benefit, just like any other feat.
CaiasWard 02-11-07, 01:58 PM	I'm curious, how are having all these extra, special rules for cohorts, needing to track total wealth and having to deal with access issues and all that make working with a cohort easier? People know how to fill out ARs as they have to do so for their real characters. Having wierd exceptions for cohorts is certain to cause confusion and dissatisfaction. Notice one poster above saying how he simply gave up on purchasing items for his cohort from wealth tracking needs. I know that was one reason I stopped playing my cleric character who had a cohort.. the rules were just so annoying. This new solution imho goes the wrong way. If this is about ease and simplicity then make it simple. Have players use rules that they already know and are comfortable with. Look at all the issues already raised here. This will reoccur for player after player as simply is the nature of LG. The end result will be more work to understand the new system and how it differs from a normal player. The most annoying thing about tracking a cohort is tracking total wealth. Please remove that. -James I'm trying to understand how it's considered 'simple' if the players of characters with cohorts are telling the circle it's not. If there were others asking for this, they should speak up in a reasoned defense other than 'this sounds cool'. :) Using the Core rules as written for Cohorts would make the most sense. The Circle has already stated they will not do that. Thus, we work with what we have and the shift to the Elite array is an excellent move. Still, their GP value is way too low due to an improperly used chart and causes problems in play. And yes, I keep on repeating that :) But it's true, and I've seen it in action and play.
Lupo 02-11-07, 03:38 PM	Here's some tentative new text. We have talked about wealth and it is likely staying with the NPC value chart. TUs and ARs Unlike PCs, cohorts do not use TUs; they are assumed to have enough available TUs to cover any expenditures in a year. ARs do not need to be used for a cohort unless he received a negative effect, such as a curse. You may keep other ARs for your cohort if you wish to track favors or other effects, but you are not required to do so. Do not track TUs, XP, or GP on these ARs, as they are irrelevant. how do cohorts than BUY things in between leveling???????????? and how is limited - adventure only access - handled then??? Advancement Each time the cohort’s level changes, it gains or loses enough gold and/or equipment to bring its total character worth to the value listed on Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127. Compute total character worth by adding all coin on hand to the full market value of all equipment owned. When the cohort gains a level, it may use the Retraining options, paying only the gold cost out of their equipment value for that level. even now the NPC gp value is at a very low limit, while adventuring this value will DECREASE when there is no gold earned through the adventuring activity. the NPC gp chart is for ONE SHOT NPCs not for some characters that basically share the danger and item/resources consuming live of an adventurer for SEVERAL modules essentially up to TEN or even more. during a normal module it is not seldom to invest 1/10 of the gp earned at the end during the adventure. sometime characters of me had to burn more than 50% in resources for a module. and what about a character death at a table, now cohorts can't even chip in, and when a cohort dies, they are dead stuck. actually they would become electable for the "charity of friends" cause. my level 13 cleric's cohort was with him in five of the last seven adventures and LOST equipment for some 4k gp. without the gp earned my cleric would have to throw in gp to replace the basic items and would NEVER get the gp back. so beside making the cohort hard to play it would cost money and make a feat quite useless. ciao martin m.
Crazy Boro 02-11-07, 03:55 PM	I know it will feel weird when my one PC hits 14th. Having a cohort with only 27k equipment when they have the possibility of playing APL 12-16 can be bad...
Mattastrophic 02-11-07, 03:57 PM	Here's what it comes down to... In Living Greyhawk, cohorts are only played if there is a free space at the table. Thus, their value at the table is equal to another PC. Nerfing them down to mere assistants would only be valid if they always accompanied the PC, even at full tables. It can't be both ways. The cohort can either be treated like a PC and thus be treated as a PC when it comes to rewards and ARs, or be treated like less than a PC and be able to break the six-man limit. -Matt
Paul H 02-11-07, 04:09 PM	Hi I took the Leadership Feat because of access to the Dakon Cohort. I'm also an admin type, so I like to keep things simple. Here's my suggestion: 1) Cohorts get half GP of PC at their level. (Ie, not the NPC table). 2) Cohorts retool their equipment every time the PC levels, and get a new MIL (signed off by GM on 1st mod the Cohort plays at new level). The Cohort now has a record of magic items/consumables. Consumables (like wands) are marked off normally once charges used. (Still only 10% of total wealth can be spent on consumables). The only problem is expensive spell components. My main PC has levels of Warmage, as does my Dakon, so both can cast Hail of Stone, which has a 5gp cost. Easy enough for me to mark off on my AR, but what about my Cohort? Does he cast spells for free? One solution is to 'mark down' the spellcasting Cohort's wealth by some percentage, to allow for expensive spells. Just a thought.... Paul H
Eric Anondson 02-11-07, 04:20 PM	The only problem is expensive spell components. My main PC has levels of Warmage, as does my Dakon, so both can cast Hail of Stone, which has a 5gp cost. Easy enough for me to mark off on my AR, but what about my Cohort? Does he cast spells for free?Such as Tenser's transformation (material component is a potion of bull's strength!) or stoneskin (require's diamond dust!). Stoneskin was a favorite of my cohort wizard after his first round suite of spells was done.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-11-07, 04:26 PM	On the surface, I like the idea of having one and only one sheet necessary for a cohort, but the implications of it sour me. Ideally, cohorts should be simple, but even at the simplest level cohorts are an additional character, which cannot and should not be as simple as an animal companion. The no AR option seems to preclude any meta-org membership from cohorts, which seems wrong. The lack of ARs also means no way to track cohort wealth, little opportunity to replenish their few consumables, and adventure access items are a crap shoot. For me, it'd also wreck havoc with the idea that the cohort, while faithfully following my character has his own experiences, history, and independent capabilities of supporting himself. I'd like to think that the guy follows my PC because he wants to, not because he's too inept to adventure otherwise. Yet this is the impression that I get with the idea that the cohort cannot help pay for his own raise, pays no upkeep, and can only buy/sell things at limited times. You're already requiring to keep any ARs with negative consequences, that's about half of the ARs already, why not go the full way? No matter what happens, I'd like to see the rule of cohort abandonment go away. You're telling my PC that his friend and sidekick abandons him because the PC failed a reflex save in a fireball and died? This is wrong. Bring back the stipulation that the cohort will not adventure with you again until you regain the level. The whole wealth thing? I'd like to see cohort wealth at half the level of PCs, but the worst the NPC table gets is 1/3, so not a big issue with me, but I have to wonder that if I was following some high level guy around and he had about six times my wealth if I wouldn't start treating him like a magic item factory and not the trusted ally/fearless leader he was meant to be. Three alternatives to the new leadership text Same as it was in the original draft. It was clear, familiar, and didn't seam that complicated. This is my favorite option. If you wanted something truly simple and static, what about the replenishing equipment option, but where consumables and gold on hand are counted as 5 times their value, per the DMG suggestion on one shot characters? The cohort would require two sheets: character sheet and static item sheet. Any curses/benefits could be noted in the main PC's AR as affecting PC and cohort. What you have, but with some changes: Gold: Use Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127 to determine the cohort’s starting gold. Feats and spells: Cohorts may not take or use Leadership or magic item creation feats. They may never cast spells that require an xp expenditure. Region: Your cohort must have the same home region as your PC at all times. Meta-orgs: Cohorts may join any meta-org they qualify for. Ignore any TU requirement. Any yearly gold/items spent or gifted by that metaorg is added/subtracted from the cohort's wealth each every time the cohort levels. Adventure Records: Cohorts receive an AR for any adventure they participate in. Ignore any TU or XP option, as they are irrelevant. Cohorts automatically receive the same upkeep as the leader. Cohorts are awarded no gold, but may buy/sell items as normal. Advancement: A cohort advances one level after participating in one adventure where your leadership score began as higher than the cohorts current ECL. Each time the cohort’s level changes, it gains or loses enough gold and/or equipment to bring its total character worth to the value listed on Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value in DMG 127. Upon gaining a level, a cohort may use the Retraining options, but the gold cost is added to their equipment for that level's wealth calculations. On the AR the cohort levels, write the total NPC Gear Value in the gold subtotal above gp spent (between 18 and 19 on the example AR). Note any equipment abandoned under "items sold", you may write down its value, though it's irrelevant. Under "items bought" record the cohort's total wealth, any retraining costs for that level, yearly meta-org costs, and any new equipment purchased. Record the sum in "gp spent" and subtract it from NPC wealth level. The cohort's final gp total must be positive. Death and Dismissal Cohorts may be raised from the dead as normal, though the leader must contribute at least as much as the cohort’s contribution used to pay for the spell. If you choose to not raise your cohort when you are able and the GM believes the cohort would want to be raised, or if the GM believes you caused the death of your cohort, she should note it in the Play Notes section of your AR and you suffer a –2 penalty to your Leadership score from that point forward. You may dismiss your cohort at any time, but doing so incurs a -1 Aloofness penalty to your leadership score. If you dismiss your cohort or cannot or do not raise a cohort from the dead, you must spend 500 GP and 4 TUs searching for a new cohort. Level Loss and Cohorts If your PC’s level ever falls below 6th your cohort abandons you. Your cohort may not ever adventure with you if their minimum ECL is within one level of your own. Nothing about the last option is perfect, but if you don't want to do anything with your cohort except when leveling, just put dashes through everything, throw down the cohorts name, level, and gold. Done. Fast. Simple. But, if your cohort needs to buy a new sword, he can sell his ring of protection, and grab that sword. You want to buy consumables? Sure, but your gold goes down until you level. I'm not entirely happy with this one, but it seems the closest you're aiming for and addresses everything I've seen people complain about. Except the gold. Something should change from what you've proposed so far. The cohort as it stands is a weak companion who has no life outside my PC, needs to be looked after so as not to die, and can't even contribute to his own raise if he does fall in battle. If I wanted all that, I'd just buy a riding dog* and save the feat. I'd rather have a full character, a competent friend, and a capable ally. *Or an albino elephant, if I could find access
Crazy Boro 02-11-07, 04:37 PM	You're already requiring to keep any ARs with negative consequences, that's about half of the ARs already, why not go the full way? Britt did give us the option of keeping AR's for favors, blessings, and other effects. We just have to cross out the TU, GP, and XP sections. Not required, but those who want to can and I definately know I'll be doing so.
solbergb 02-11-07, 04:41 PM	Ah...he said they'd think about it. (text is "tentative") I want to see the new text before I say they've fixed the AR issue. His solution as written will still prevent access to many metaorgs, unless we can pay the cash costs out of our "levelup" cash and the time unit requirements are waived. But it's better than the original text. Given how the text went from what we all expected to this totally strange thing with no warning, I will make no assumptions until I see the next draft. Hopefully we've expressed our concerns clearly enough. I like my cohort, but she was designed from a roleplay and build perspective around the last set of cohort rules. The only significant change in the first draft was elite array, which both helped and hurt the character, net wash...it's cool. The second draft made me want to retire the cohort. There is plenty of middle ground where I'd still want to keep my cohort. As an example of one such compromise that would be ok is to be issued the AR to track favors/disfavors/curses/blessings and to be given a bit more starting cash (obviously if I was ok playing the last round of cohorts with NPC cash levels, I can live without cash from adventures if I received enough extra to kind of wash that out). Some issues with joining metaorgs and adventure AR access still remain but would be presumably covered somehow by the text. If my cohort can't be in a metaorg, I have to retire her. I hired her OUT of a metaorg (we're from the same clan in a BK metaorg, cousins). It makes no sense that she can't belong to it - indeed she's a more active member there than my main character is. Hopefully some kind of acceptable middle ground will be found in the next draft, but I see nothing in the retraining rules indicating I can't swap out leadership, so I guess I have an option if I really hate the result. Unfortuately the char just leveled so there will be a level of having to live with the results anyway. Perhaps there is a silver lining to that, I can try out whatever rules they come up with and have a reasoned decision to base retiring the character on should I feel I need to. For me the issues are #1 character has a history. Tracking AR's fix that #2 character can belong to organizations. Tu/Cash requirements for metaorgs need to be addressed somehow #3 character have enough equipment of their own to contribute, and yes, that means they have to have sufficient reserve to burn a normal amount of consumables over a level worth of adventures. 10% may not be enough, especially if we stick with NPC wealth levels. All characters in D&D use consumables - the wealth/level charts assume you earn significantly more than that and burn it in consumables and various fees (metaorgs, bribes, etc). #4 character have sufficient access to make good use of #3. This is less important the less cash you have weirdly, but adventure access stuff is an issue. Perhaps letting them buy stuff off any AR they got in the prior level when doing levelup requipping might help that a little. My cohort had two items off adventure access, one of which just became Open. The other item affected levelup choices two levels ago, and since I have the AR etc and bought it under the old rules, I'd expect to be able ot keep the item. But it would be nice to have a mechanism. For others, the order of importance is different, and they may have other concerns not addressed by me. For me, whether or not I keep the cohort is mostly dependent on the first two. My cohort is less equipment-dependent than most, and most consumables she can use my main character can afford to carry around and pass out to other PC's when she's not present.
Crazy Boro 02-11-07, 04:48 PM	Ah...he said they'd think about it. I want to see the new text before I say they've fixed the AR issue. Given how the text went from what we all expected to this totally strange thing with no warning, I will make no assumptions until I see the next draft. Hopefully we've expressed our concerns clearly enough. I like my cohort, but she was designed from a roleplay and build perspective around the last set of cohort rules. The only significant change in the first draft was elite array, which both helped and hurt the character, net wash...it's cool. The second draft made me want to retire the cohort. There is plenty of middle ground where I'd still want to keep my cohort. Hopefully that will be found in the third draft. Yeah, I know what you mean. I was just going by the latest announcement by Britt... I should've put in the words tentative for the AR inclusion. I know I've got 2 PC's who've had leadership for the past 3 years (and 1 planning on taking it), so I'm hoping they aren't neutered by the new changes. I want an adventuring pal and not a higher level follower.
pneumatik 02-11-07, 04:55 PM	I don't have too many specific comments to make about cohorts, but as a player with a cohort I figured I should chime in. Tracking ARs, an MIL, etc. for my cohort has never been a problem. If cohorts count as a PC for APL calculation, it's pretty rough when they don't get enough money for their level. OTOH, I understand that leadership shouldn't give someone two full PCs at a table. *shrug* I got nothing for this one. If cohorts can only spend money when they level, they will definitely loose out on item access (esp. since they can't take crafting feats). Ultimately I don't think I'll end up retraining out Leadership for my PC, because I designed the cohort with the limitations to cohorts in LG in mind.
Timlagor 02-11-07, 05:46 PM	I hope you guys remember that the cohorts contribute their level in full to the APL calculation. I reckon the latest proposal is a disaster. I certainly won't take Leadership under such rules. This doesn't bother me much but I'll also be reluctant to have these cohorts at the table. Cohorts are already at least 2 levels behind -they don't need much more nerfing than that. I certainly can't see anyone taking a cohort without a maxed Leadership score after such changes.
garyjohnson 02-11-07, 05:46 PM	Here's some tentative new text. We have talked about wealth and it is likely staying with the NPC value chart. TUs and ARs Unlike PCs, cohorts do not use TUs; they are assumed to have enough available TUs to cover any expenditures in a year. ARs do not need to be used for a cohort unless he received a negative effect, such as a curse. You may keep other ARs for your cohort if you wish to track favors or other effects, but you are not required to do so. Do not track TUs, XP, or GP on these ARs, as they are irrelevant. Recommended extra text: "If you do not keep ARs for your cohort, you must write "played with cohort" in the Play Notes section of your PC's AR whenever your cohort participates in an adventure." Rationale: Apart from the honour system, this is the only way a DM can determine whether or not a cohort really does have access to a certain favour, really did participate in the previous scenario in a series and thus has option X apply to them, and so on. Also, is the player required to maintain a MIL for the cohort? Cheers, Gary Johnson
solbergb 02-11-07, 07:20 PM	Britt just posted on the main thread that Leadership would end up "pretty much" the way it was in the first draft. That's good news from where I sit. Hopefully the "pretty much" part is even better than the original draft :)