Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Britt 02-10-07, 03:34 PM	Retraining Upon gaining a new level, you may use any one Retraining option in the Player’s Handbook 2 192-195, following the rules listed there. The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC. Retraining costs 4 TUs and (100 GP x your new level) for any option. These TUs may be paid out of next year’s total, if necessary. If a magic item creation feat is lost through Retraining, you must pay extra GP equal to the amount of GP saved by use of the feat.
Gyro_LC 02-10-07, 03:58 PM	Retraining Upon gaining a new level, you may use any one Retraining option in the Player’s Handbook 2 192-195, following the rules listed there. The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC. Retraining costs 4 TUs and (100 GP x your new level) for any option. These TUs may be paid out of next year’s total, if necessary. If a magic item creation feat is lost through Retraining, you must pay extra GP equal to the amount of GP saved by use of the feat. It may be a good idea to specify that the extra gold paid to retrain a MIC feat is in addition to the normal retraining feat.
Samwise 02-10-07, 03:58 PM	How would someone know whether substitution levels qualify as a "rules item" or not?
Piuro 02-10-07, 03:59 PM	And does this mean we can't change more then one feat, etc. per level?
Britt 02-10-07, 04:00 PM	And does this mean we can't change more then one feat, etc. per level? This doesn't have to. The rules in PH2 clearly say you can only do one per level, when you level. This also says "any one".
Britt 02-10-07, 04:01 PM	How would someone know whether substitution levels qualify as a "rules item" or not? Everything is a rules option :)
Samwise 02-10-07, 04:15 PM	Everything? That's a lot of interconnected rules text. That means anything not directly contained within a specifically named item is excluded, or at least subject to being excluded by table variation. Perhaps you should define the term more precisely in the LGCS.
Britt 02-10-07, 04:16 PM	Can you give me an example of a problem?
Samwise 02-10-07, 04:40 PM	I haven't gone looking for a way to abuse it yet. I'm sure people will begin finding more than a few once they turn themselves to it. You've just made a general statement, that doesn't appear in the LGCS, that "everything" is a rules item. That means every separate paragraph and heading is a separate and distinct rules item, and must be specifically approved for use, whether or not it is an actual rules item as otherwise covered in the Open and Closed lists. Do you know everything that includes? Are you aware of every case, sub-case, and conditional situation that will apply to? Right here you have a single, specific, situation, that just requires you to define that retraining does not include one option - substitution levels. Why not just make that note rather than waiting for everyone to find some linked rule to throw a monkeywrench into ten other things? Oh, another thing to consider: By that statement, you effectively open up everything contained within any single rules item. What if there is some option mentioned within a prestige class that includes a Closed item? Would that make it Open just because it appears within the class? I could easily claim that for Beguiler. The Circle doesn't need to approve the PHB II spells for that class. You said the rules is Open, the spells are part of that rules item, they are Open without any additional statement required.
Howie23 02-10-07, 04:42 PM	Retraining Upon gaining a new level, you may use any one Retraining option in the Player’s Handbook 2 192-195, following the rules listed there. The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC. Retraining costs 4 TUs and (100 GP x your new level) for any option. These TUs may be paid out of next year’s total, if necessary. If a magic item creation feat is lost through Retraining, you must pay extra GP equal to the amount of GP saved by use of the feat. I think this shuts down the MIC elevator for crafting. David
Britt 02-10-07, 04:45 PM	That means every separate paragraph and heading is a separate and distinct rules item, and must be specifically approved for use, whether or not it is an actual rules item as otherwise covered in the Open and Closed lists. Do you know everything that includes? Are you aware of every case, sub-case, and conditional situation that will apply to? Right here you have a single, specific, situation, that just requires you to define that retraining does not include one option - substitution levels. Why not just make that note rather than waiting for everyone to find some linked rule to throw a monkeywrench into ten other things? Oh, another thing to consider: By that statement, you effectively open up everything contained within any single rules item. What if there is some option mentioned within a prestige class that includes a Closed item? Would that make it Open just because it appears within the class? I could easily claim that for Beguiler. The Circle doesn't need to approve the PHB II spells for that class. You said the rules is Open, the spells are part of that rules item, they are Open without any additional statement required. Nooo, every option that is a rule is a rules option. A feat, class, prestige class, skill, alternative class feature, racial substitution level, sidebars, variant rules, new uses for skills, etc etc. If it's a rule and an option, it's a rules option. That doesn't mean the milk in your fridge is a rules option. Even if you try to make it apply extremely broadly, that just helps restrict uses. The document states that "If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation permitting its use." The only abuse that could happen is someone denying themselves the option of using something they could otherwise use, since everything is written in exclusionary language.
Crazy Boro 02-10-07, 04:52 PM	Nooo, every option that is a rule is a rules option. A feat, class, prestige class, skill, alternative class feature, racial substitution level, sidebars, variant rules, new uses for skills, etc etc. If it's a rule and an option, it's a rules option. That doesn't mean the milk in your fridge is a rules option. Even if you try to make it apply extremely broadly, that just helps restrict uses. The document states that "If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation permitting its use." The only abuse that could happen is someone denying themselves the option of using something they could otherwise use, since everything is written in exclusionary language. Are alternative class features and racial substitution levels from the LGCS section with the list of rulebooks legal then for retraining?
Howie23 02-10-07, 04:54 PM	Are alternative class features and racial substitution levels from the LGCS section with the list of rulebooks legal then for retraining? Sounds to me like they are if the rules option is open to the character being retrained, and if that option is covered by the genearl retraining rules. David
Samwise 02-10-07, 04:54 PM	Nooo, every option that is a rule is a rules option. A feat, class, prestige class, skill, alternative class feature, racial substitution level, sidebars, variant rules, new uses for skills, etc etc. If it's a rule and an option, it's a rules option. That doesn't mean the milk in your fridge is a rules option. Ah, so not everything is a rules option, just . . . rules. What are rules? Yes, you just gave me a list here. But it isn't a complete list. Even if you try to make it apply extremely broadly, that just helps restrict uses. The document states that "If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation permitting its use." The only abuse that could happen is someone denying themselves the option of using something they could otherwise use, since everything is written in exclusionary language. Or a DM abusing a player by not allowing something under that reasoning because he doesn't like a particular use of something and declares it an "option" that a player doesn't have permission to use at his table. And, as I said, it allows players to claim broad reaching exemption by inclusion. Sidebars? What about just "Adaptation" within a prestige class entry? Oh, and what about weaponlike spells? They aren't required, but they can be used. What happens when a DM decides they must be used and it results in a penalty for a player who doesn't have the right feat? What if he decides it is an option and you need more explicit permission to use it?
Britt 02-10-07, 04:55 PM	Are alternative class features and racial substitution levels from the LGCS section with the list of rulebooks legal then for retraining? If it is not covered by the LGCS, you need campaign documentation.
Britt 02-10-07, 04:58 PM	Ah, so not everything is a rules option, just . . . rules. What are rules? Yes, you just gave me a list here. But it isn't a complete list. Or a DM abusing a player by not allowing something under that reasoning because he doesn't like a particular use of something and declares it an "option" that a player doesn't have permission to use at his table. And, as I said, it allows players to claim broad reaching exemption by inclusion. Sidebars? What about just "Adaptation" within a prestige class entry? Oh, and what about weaponlike spells? They aren't required, but they can be used. What happens when a DM decides they must be used and it results in a penalty for a player who doesn't have the right feat? What if he decides it is an option and you need more explicit permission to use it? It's not a complete list because I doubt it's possible to develop a complete list of all types of rules used in D&D. This has never been a problem before, so I don't really see it being a problem now. Your "Adaptation" statement helps support my assertion that a complete list isn't really an option. By making a list, anything we leave off suddenly is not a rules option and people try to abuse it that way. And if a DM is being a butt like that, you have more problems than this. How would weaponlike spells be a detriment to a player? From what I recall, those rules only grant possible bonuses to players.
Britt 02-10-07, 04:59 PM	Sounds to me like they are if the rules option is open to the character being retrained, and if that option is covered by the genearl retraining rules. David How do you get from: "The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC." To saying that since it's a possible retraining option, it is legal for your character? There is nothing that says every possible option is an Open option.
pedr 02-10-07, 05:02 PM	Are the alternative class features and racial substitution levels specifically made Open for your PC by the LGCS or other campaign documentation? If so, you can use those retraining options. If not, you can't. I'm a fan of tight, precise wording, but here I think I agree with Britt. A rules option is an option or choice in the rules. It is a good, open ended phrase which includes feats, skills, classes, spells, skill tricks, inspiration points from Dungeonscape and other not-yet-invented rules and systems which might or might not be included for use by a PC. And it's quite clear what is open (everything in the core books that isn't on the Closed list, everything on the Open lists, everything you have campaign documentation telling you it's Open). Everything else is not Open. As the foundational principle is 'you can only have or do it if it is Open for your character' you don't need any more precision about what you can't, currently, do. It is enough to point at the list of things which are Open for a character and ask: 'is it on that list?' If not, it's not available to you. I think that's reasonably straight-forward. Whether it's stated in as explicit terms anywhere I'm not sure - if not it might be a useful addition, particularly with the change from four category names to two.
Samwise 02-10-07, 05:09 PM	It's not a complete list because I doubt it's possible to develop a complete list of all types of rules used in D&D. This has never been a problem before, so I don't really see it being a problem now. The list doesn't need to be complete, merely the list of definitions. Right now, you have incomplete definitions that rely on constant reference and questioning of campaign staff. And in fact, in this specific case, the list is very much finite. There is one specific option under retraining that can not be used. Say so. And then if, for some reason, someone gets access to a substitution level, include text that they may use it with retraining. Your "Adaptation" statement helps support my assertion that a complete list isn't really an option. By making a list, anything we leave off suddenly is not a rules option and people try to abuse it that way. And if a DM is being a butt like that, you have more problems than this. An incomplete list isn't really an option either. But that is what you keep winding up with. How would weaponlike spells be a detriment to a player? From what I recall, those rules only grant possible bonuses to players. Any option can always be used in unintended ways. Better to be prepared for it. How do you get from: "The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC." To saying that since it's a possible retraining option, it is legal for your character? There is nothing that says every possible option is an Open option. Simple: Retraining includes substitution levels. Since retraining is Open, everything included in it is Open. Otherwise it is like saying because you only said that the special Warmage spells are Open from 1st level, the rest of the Warmage spell list isn't because you didn't specifically say it was. And yes, I'm sure that sounds silly. I am trying to get those factors clarified before it becomes an issue and someone starts ranting about how you are destroying the campaign by "suddenly" closing the substitution levels from use with retraining.
Britt 02-10-07, 05:18 PM	The list doesn't need to be complete, merely the list of definitions. Right now, you have incomplete definitions that rely on constant reference and questioning of campaign staff. And in fact, in this specific case, the list is very much finite. There is one specific option under retraining that can not be used. Say so. And then if, for some reason, someone gets access to a substitution level, include text that they may use it with retraining. Simple: Retraining includes substitution levels. Since retraining is Open, everything included in it is Open. Otherwise it is like saying because you only said that the special Warmage spells are Open from 1st level, the rest of the Warmage spell list isn't because you didn't specifically say it was. And yes, I'm sure that sounds silly. I am trying to get those factors clarified before it becomes an issue and someone starts ranting about how you are destroying the campaign by "suddenly" closing the substitution levels from use with retraining. What are the incomplete definitions? And Retraining DOES include racial subs and ACF, you just need access to the rules options you are taking. Some people already have access to those rules options. They can use Retraining for them. But Retraining isn't Open. The LGCS says you may use Retraining when you level, but never uses the term Open except to limit your options.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 05:19 PM	Retraining is open but the Substitution levels are not. You can only retrain to something that is Open for your character. (second sentence of Brit's post) By your reasoning you could retrain to pick up any ajar spell or feat.
Howie23 02-10-07, 05:21 PM	How do you get from: "The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC." To saying that since it's a possible retraining option, it is legal for your character? There is nothing that says every possible option is an Open option. I didn't say that. I said IF the rules option was open (you have AR access to PC substitution classes, say) AND retraining is permitted for that option THEN you may retrain the open rules option. The PC must satisfy both conditions. David
Britt 02-10-07, 05:22 PM	I didn't say that. I said IF the rules option was open (you have AR access to PC substitution classes, say) AND retraining is permitted for that option THEN you may retrain the open rules option. The PC must satisfy both conditions. David Ahh, then we agree, good. Sorry for the confusion :)
CrystalSmoke 02-10-07, 05:24 PM	Retraining Upon gaining a new level, you may use any one Retraining option in the Player’s Handbook 2 192-195, following the rules listed there. The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC. Retraining costs 4 TUs and (100 GP x your new level) for any option. These TUs may be paid out of next year’s total, if necessary. If a magic item creation feat is lost through Retraining, you must pay extra GP equal to the amount of GP saved by use of the feat. Sounds good to me! It's flexible and forgiving without being weak. Now if we could only turn to p. 196 and add Rebuilding rules, I'd be really happy.
Samwise 02-10-07, 05:25 PM	What are the incomplete definitions? And Retraining DOES include racial subs and ACF, you just need access to the rules options you are taking. Some people already have access to those rules options. They can use Retraining for them. The incomplete definition is saying I need access to substitution levels. How am I supposed to know they are a rules option? The Open and Closed lists contain base classes, prestige classes, feats, and spells. Why am I supposed to "know" that it includes substitution levels if it never says so anywhere? Just because they are in approved books? If so, then you have a definition you are not giving. But Retraining isn't Open. The LGCS says you may use Retraining when you level, but never uses the term Open except to limit your options. So Open doesn't mean you can use something? Wait, isn't the purpose of Open to tell us what new rules options we can use? Now you have a definition that you aren't using. This is going pretty far to avoid adding a bit of specific clarifying text to the section on retraining.
Britt 02-10-07, 05:36 PM	The incomplete definition is saying I need access to substitution levels. How am I supposed to know they are a rules option? The Open and Closed lists contain base classes, prestige classes, feats, and spells. Why am I supposed to "know" that it includes substitution levels if it never says so anywhere? Just because they are in approved books? If so, then you have a definition you are not giving. So Open doesn't mean you can use something? Wait, isn't the purpose of Open to tell us what new rules options we can use? Now you have a definition that you aren't using. This is going pretty far to avoid adding a bit of specific clarifying text to the section on retraining. How are you supposed to know that weaponlike spells are a rules option? Or variant rules in the DMG? Or exotic weapon familiarity? Or masterwork bardic instrument rules? Or every single sidebar or variant rule in the game? Or skill tricks? Or luck feats? Or heritage feats? Or tactical feats? Or ritual feats? The Open/Closed list DOESN'T include racial subs and ACF; I'm not sure why you think it does. It's not on the list, so it's not Open. As I said, the LGCS has text in two places that says: ""If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation permitting its use." I'm not sure how much clearer that can get.
Samwise 02-10-07, 05:48 PM	As I said, the LGCS has text in two places that says: ""If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation permitting its use." I'm not sure how much clearer that can get. Well then, there you go. The rules document includes retraining. Retraining includes racial substitution levels. I have access to racial substitution levels. But instead, players are expected to know, by inference from that statement, that items included in a rule are not automatically accessible unless otherwise stated. So indeed, the warmage spell list is not accessible since you never list it as being Open. The spell list is a separate and distinct rules item, and by this definition if it isn't on the Open list it is not available without documentation. Where can I can get an AR to use the warmage spell list?
Britt 02-10-07, 05:51 PM	Well then, there you go. The rules document includes retraining. Retraining includes racial substitution levels. I have access to racial substitution levels. But instead, players are expected to know, by inference from that statement, that items included in a rule are not automatically accessible unless otherwise stated. So indeed, the warmage spell list is not accessible since you never list it as being Open. The spell list is a separate and distinct rules item, and by this definition if it isn't on the Open list it is not available without documentation. Where can I can get an AR to use the warmage spell list? Except Retraining specifically says "The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC. " You have to completely ignore that to try to say that everything Retraining offers is Open for your PC. You have to be deliberately obtuse to get to where you are trying to get. How is it at all "by inference" when it is explicitly stated? And yes, since the warmage spell list is not Open specifically, it is not accessible. That is a problem that we have to look at, but it doesn't suddenly make everything Open that you want to be Open.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 05:55 PM	Substitution Levels are in a book. The LGCS does not make them Open You can only retrain to things that are alreayd Open THEREFORE you cannot retrain to a Substitution Level unless you have some other documentation that makes it open for you character. It doesn't matter whether they are referred to as a "rule option" or a "pink giraffe"; they are not open unless you have something to say they are.
pedr 02-10-07, 06:01 PM	I had a look, and I think that there's only one NONC Warmage spell: Fireshield, mass. All the others are Open in the LGCS anyway. The Warmage problem was that they had to be given a specific exemption from the third-level rule. They don't need that exemption anymore.
Britt 02-10-07, 06:01 PM	I had a look, and I think that there's only one NONC Warmage spell: Fireshield, mass. All the others are Open in the LGCS anyway. The Warmage problem was that they had to be given a specific exemption from the third-level rule. They don't need that exemption anymore. Thanks, I was just about to start investigating that. That saves me some time.
Samwise 02-10-07, 06:06 PM	Except Retraining specifically says "The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC. " You have to completely ignore that to try to say that everything Retraining offers is Open for your PC. You have to be deliberately obtuse to get to where you are trying to get. How is it at all "by inference" when it is explicitly stated? Because these are rules for an RPGA campaign. You don't expect players to be deliberately obtuse when it benefits them? And yes, since the warmage spell list is not Open specifically, it is not accessible. That is a problem that we have to look at, but it doesn't suddenly make everything Open that you want to be Open. So then everyone who has been playing a warmage has been cheating the past few years, using a spell list they didn't have access to. And nobody should be allowed to use the warmage spell list in the week remaining before this is clarified since we now know they don't have access to it. At least I don't recall seeing it on the Core spell list in the current LGCS. All they could, theoretically, use are those spells otherwise unavailable to others until 3rd level. And barring specifically listing every class ability of every non-Core base and prestige class, how exactly would you deal with this problem?
Britt 02-10-07, 06:16 PM	So then everyone who has been playing a warmage has been cheating the past few years, using a spell list they didn't have access to. And nobody should be allowed to use the warmage spell list in the week remaining before this is clarified since we now know they don't have access to it. At least I don't recall seeing it on the Core spell list in the current LGCS. All they could, theoretically, use are those spells otherwise unavailable to others until 3rd level. And barring specifically listing every class ability of every non-Core base and prestige class, how exactly would you deal with this problem? Say what?!? That is the class! It's not something that you may or may not take. You can't say "I'm going to be a warmage, but I'm not sure if I want to choose to use the warmage spell list." The spell list is part of the class. Particular racial subs and ACFs are not part of the Retraining rules. Elven Ranger isn't in the Retraining rules.
Samwise 02-10-07, 06:25 PM	Say what?!? That is the class! It's not something that you may or may not take. You can't say "I'm going to be a warmage, but I'm not sure if I want to choose to use the warmage spell list." The spell list is part of the class. Particular racial subs and ACFs are not part of the Retraining rules. Elven Ranger isn't in the Retraining rules. Yes indeed. I agree. That is ludicrous. But the warmage spell list is a separate item from the class, and so you have to grant specific access to use it. Or you don't, and you don't need to grant specific access to use the beguiler spell list, and any spells on it that are not otherwise listed as Open. These are your definitions, not mine. I am just pointing out some of the conflicts that occur with them. You asked me to give you an example of a problem of "included text" when "everything" is a rules item, and I have given you one. So far the only way for it not to be a problem is for players to infer a considerable amount of information that you say should be explicit but that you have had to explain here. That would seem to suggest there is a very definite problem with using that as a standard, and not just being a bit more explicit.
pedr 02-10-07, 06:30 PM	But, as I've said, there's no need to grant access to the Warmage spell list. Apart from Fireshield, mass there aren't any currently limited spells on the Warmage spell list. So, yes, Warmages shouldn't have been (and shouldn't be) using Fireshield, mass. Apart from that they don't need any special access, except that the current 3rd-level rule meant they needed an exception for the SpC spells and the sudden feats.
Britt 02-10-07, 06:30 PM	Yes indeed. I agree. That is ludicrous. But the warmage spell list is a separate item from the class, and so you have to grant specific access to use it. Or you don't, and you don't need to grant specific access to use the beguiler spell list, and any spells on it that are not otherwise listed as Open. These are your definitions, not mine. I am just pointing out some of the conflicts that occur with them. You asked me to give you an example of a problem of "included text" when "everything" is a rules item, and I have given you one. So far the only way for it not to be a problem is for players to infer a considerable amount of information that you say should be explicit but that you have had to explain here. That would seem to suggest there is a very definite problem with using that as a standard, and not just being a bit more explicit. I've only had to explain because you keep giving me ridiculous statements that don't make any sense. Spells have an Open/Closed list; they are explicit. Classes have an Open/Closed list. features of a class are part of that class and not an option. Retraining is very explicit that you need to have Open access to be able to Retrain into something. It's not a "considerable amount of information" to think that "must be Open" means that it has to be Open and "not covered requires campaign documentation" means that something not covered needs campaign documentation. A problem with being explicit is exactly the same as trying to give an explicit list of rules options. If you list Racial Subs and ACFs, people start wondering about everything else. "Well, they said Racial Subs and ACFs weren't Open, which means everything else is! Woohoo! I can retrain into Duskblade now because that is a class and it's not specifically ruled out!" It creates more problems to single them out than to create an exclusionary blanket rule.
Samwise 02-10-07, 06:32 PM	But, as I've said, there's no need to grant access to the Warmage spell list. Apart from Fireshield, mass there aren't any currently limited spells on the Warmage spell list. So, yes, Warmages shouldn't have been (and shouldn't be) using Fireshield, mass. Apart from that they don't need any special access, except that the current 3rd-level rule meant they needed an exception for the SpC spells and the sudden feats. Well actually, there is. Spellcasters cast spells from a spell list. Without access to a spell list, they can't actually cast any spells, even if they have spellcasting ability. This is im implicit in the possibility of not allowing access to all spells on a spell list, as was a problem with the warmage, and as is a (pending) issue with the beguiler. It is an artifact of declaring "everything" a rules item that must have access granted to it, rather than assuming that access to a specific rules structure includes access to all rules items within that structure.
pedr 02-10-07, 06:42 PM	No, it's not. It's not an option. I'd look up a definition in a dictionary, but then this discussion would move on! A spell list isn't something you can choose, or not choose. It is part of the class. What you can choose are the spells you prepare, or the spells you cast from your spell list. So they are rules options. Feats are rules options, class features are not.
Samwise 02-10-07, 06:59 PM	I've only had to explain because you keep giving me ridiculous statements that don't make any sense. I've given you very simple statements derived from your extremely open ended statements. When you clarify, the issues disappear. Unfortunately, that clarity does not exist from the general statements. Spells have an Open/Closed list; they are explicit. Classes have an Open/Closed list. Right. You have defined material that is restricted by an Open/Closed list by having a list of it. That is an explicit limit on what is covered by Open/Closed lists. Everything else is, by your own explicit intent, undefined, and thus open to confusion. features of a class are part of that class and not an option. So spells aren't a feature of a class? Or are they a feature of a class, and thus not an option? Are all the PHB II spells on the beguiler spell list automatically Open to anyone taking the beguiler class? If not, then this statement of yours is incorrect. Retraining is very explicit that you need to have Open access to be able to Retrain into something. It's not a "considerable amount of information" to think that "must be Open" means that it has to be Open and "not covered requires campaign documentation" means that something not covered needs campaign documentation. But what isn't explicit is what constitutes something that needs to be Open. You have lists of some things. And class features are obviously always Open if the class is Open. Unless it is the beguiler. Maybe. A problem with being explicit is exactly the same as trying to give an explicit list of rules options. If you list Racial Subs and ACFs, people start wondering about everything else. "Well, they said Racial Subs and ACFs weren't Open, which means everything else is! Woohoo! I can retrain into Duskblade now because that is a class and it's not specifically ruled out!" It creates more problems to single them out than to create an exclusionary blanket rule. And the problem with not being explicit is that you have rules situations that are not clear, and, with the beguiler, apparently one that is directly contradictory. Now I didn't intend to take it into this, but you have made it the base of the discussion. The lack of a Limited/NONC list is simply not feasible. That you don't want to define it because you don't want players to consider it is irrelvant. All of those items exist in the books. Without the ability to redact those books, you can not prevent players from considering that material. That leaves as the sole effect an area of undefined rules material, that depends on inferring the rules governing it from defined rules material, and always subject to misinterpretation. And that lack of definition touches on other material, as in this example, with the sole effect that you limit your rules. So no matter how much you hate the idea of a Limited/NONC list, you can't escape it. It is defined by its lack of definition. The only way you can get rid of it is to bite the bullet and define everything as Open or Closed, with no other option. And yes, that means not allowing anything, no matter how cool, from a new book in with AR documentation between LGCS versions. So is the beguiler spell list part of the class or not? If it is, then asserting the spells on that list are separate is outrageous. Either the class is Open, with all of its aspects, or it isn't. And if it isn't, then you, not me, have opened the door to calling any other class ability subject to being defined as a separate rules item that requires specific permission to use. That's why I told you that definition was no good. There are too many linked things in the rules to say "everything" is a rules item.
pedr 02-10-07, 07:03 PM	A beguiler has a spell list. A beguiler makes use of rules options (spells) when she chooses what to cast. She can only cast spells which are Open to her. Just because something is listed on the beguiler spell list doesn't make it open (though I hope, and expect, that the beguiler situation will be corrected in the LGCS by opening Whelm and Rouse and the others for beguilers).
Samwise 02-10-07, 07:10 PM	No, it's not. It's not an option. I'd look up a definition in a dictionary, but then this discussion would move on! A spell list isn't something you can choose, or not choose. It is part of the class. What you can choose are the spells you prepare, or the spells you cast from your spell list. So they are rules options. Feats are rules options, class features are not. Then I repeat: By that definition, every spell on the beguiler spell list is Open to a beguiler, whether it is listed as Open or not. The same applies to the warmage, or any other spell list. If that is not true, then I suggest the problem is not with me needing a dictionary, but you needing a consistent definition. A beguiler has a spell list. A beguiler makes use of rules options (spells) when she chooses what to cast. She can only cast spells which are Open to her. Just because something is listed on the beguiler spell list doesn't make it open (though I hope, and expect, that the beguiler situation will be corrected in the LGCS by opening Whelm and Rouse and the others for beguilers). That is the most outrageous parsing imaginable. Either the spells are part of the spell list or they aren't. If the spell list is a class feature, the spells on it are just as much a class feature, and by your previous statement on them, are not subject to being separated. Perhaps the definition that needs to be checked here is "consistency."
Britt 02-10-07, 07:15 PM	Sorry, but this conversation is just ridiculous and I'm pretty much done with it; it's only contributing to my frustration. Shield is not a class feature of Wizard. 'Class feature' is a particular term, and individual spells are not a member of that set. The ability to cast spells is a class feature, the spells themselves are not class features. We are not giving a limited list, no matter how much people try to make the rules confusing, and that is what this is. You have to really work to make these rules confusing, and purposefully try to find ambiguous interpretations. If you at all try to find a reasonable interpretation, you arrive at what was intended by the rules.
Samwise 02-10-07, 07:29 PM	Sorry, but this conversation is just ridiculous and I'm pretty much done with it; it's only contributing to my frustration. Shield is not a class feature of Wizard. 'Class feature' is a particular term, and individual spells are not a member of that set. The ability to cast spells is a class feature, the spells themselves are not class features. We are not giving a limited list, no matter how much people try to make the rules confusing, and that is what this is. You have to really work to make these rules confusing, and purposefully try to find ambiguous interpretations. If you at all try to find a reasonable interpretation, you arrive at what was intended by the rules. I'm sorry you feel that way Britt. The best way to deal with problems of confusing wording is to address them from the start. That is all I was trying to do. And no, I didn't have to work particularly hard to find an ambiguous interpretation of this. As I said, I expect there are people who want to twist things for some advantage or other, and they will do a much better job misconstruing things than I could.
Britt 02-10-07, 07:36 PM	I'm sorry you feel that way Britt. The best way to deal with problems of confusing wording is to address them from the start. That is all I was trying to do. And no, I didn't have to work particularly hard to find an ambiguous interpretation of this. As I said, I expect there are people who want to twist things for some advantage or other, and they will do a much better job misconstruing things than I could. But after a few changes that I have already made and posted above, they are not confusing. People asked if they could do it multiple times per level; that was clarified. People asked if Racial Subs and ACFs were valid; the phrase "must be Open" was added and seems to cover it for everyone but you. I can make almost any rule confusing. That does not mean that the rule needs to be worded differently or that it is ambiguous. You have to want these rules to be ambiguous for them to be so, IMO. Either that or you have to be trying to get to a conclusion you know is not the intent of the rules. Rules can and will be misinterpreted by people on purpose to try to get a benefit. We can't stop that. And honestly, this is a game, not something like the Constitution of a country or something. The ability to twist something is not as problematic in a game, as everyone can just tell the person that was not the intent and that's good enough. We don't need these rules to hold up in court.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 07:43 PM	The list is part of the class. The spells are not part of the list. They are seperate and merely referenced by the list. A Beguiler uses the list to know what spells are castable by the class. The list is a feature of the class but the spells are not. If a spell is on the list then the Beguiler checks if it is also Open for their character. If it is on their spell list and open for them then they can cast it. Similarly all the Ajar (noncy) cleric spells are on the cleric spell list*. A Cleric can still only cast the ones that are Open for them. * the cleric spell list is just rather more widely distributed than the Beguiler one Things that are listed as Open are Open Things that are listed as Closed are Closed Everything else is Ajar and therefore usable if and only iff you have seperate documentation. Substitution levels are not part of the Retraining Rules. How to retrain into a Substitution level which is open to you is part of the retraining rules ...in exactly the same way as Feats are not part of the retraining rules.
Samwise 02-10-07, 07:48 PM	Yes, I know. That's one of my primary points. I can twist them and I don't want then twisted. What can someone who wants to twist them do to them? I saw the same issue with the Mage Knight rules. In the quest to keep them short, they relied on "obvious" interpretations instead of direct explanations, and had the resulting confusion.
Samwise 02-10-07, 08:06 PM	The list is part of the class. The spells are not part of the list. They are seperate and merely referenced by the list. A Beguiler uses the list to know what spells are castable by the class. The list is a feature of the class but the spells are not. I find that a rather spurious parsing of the language, and an unnecessary overcomplication. Particularly because it opens the door to parsing other class abilities in a similar manner. And I find the comparison to clerics, or other PHB base classes, weak unconvincing. All the PHB classes have a defined spell list in their Core book, with all other spells being intended as optional additions. The classes in any accessory book, particularly those with new, limited spells lists, are obviously intended to be used with that specific spell list. It is unreasonable to assume the two can or should be so casually separated and still function as written. And while that may in fact highlight a design flaw of those classes, it makes relying on the intent of rules rather peculiar as a justification to exclude spells from the list. Of course, this is more properly part of a discussion on why those spells must be Open, at least for Beguilers. It is here solely to demonstrate my assertion of the interconnection between various rules elements that otherwise appear separate.
Prof. Pacali 02-10-07, 09:51 PM	I have a question about the retraining rules. What happens to PCs playing Red Hand of Doom? How exactly does retraining and TUs work when playing it?
Maesto 02-10-07, 10:12 PM	Bleargh. I have no idea what this thread is about. I think it's about the retraining rules. So here I go. I like the idea of penalising swapping out a crafting feat; it essentially lets somebody who really wants to get hold of a particular item but has lost access (adventure, for instance), or somebody who thought a feat was great but realised soon after that it really wasn't swap it out. I have a question however... How does the skill point retraining option work with regards to class and cross class skills? For example. I take out 4 skill points from x. They were cross class when I put them in, so I take out two ranks and have 4 skill points to spend. Now, how do I determine which skills are cross class and which skills are class skills for the purpose of spending them? Is any skill that was ever a class skill for me now considered a class skill for the purposes of spending these skill points? Or just the last class that I took? A concrete example: I take rogue at first level, then I take four cleric levels. I need to have 8 ranks in hide to qualify for my PrC, so I take 4 ranks from knowledge (religion), and want to dump then into hide. Is hide going to cost 2 skillpoints per rank, or just one? Thanks, Jolyon
DarkKnight 02-10-07, 10:59 PM	Well then, there you go. The rules document includes retraining. Retraining includes racial substitution levels. I have access to racial substitution levels. But instead, players are expected to know, by inference from that statement, that items included in a rule are not automatically accessible unless otherwise stated. So indeed, the warmage spell list is not accessible since you never list it as being Open. The spell list is a separate and distinct rules item, and by this definition if it isn't on the Open list it is not available without documentation. Where can I can get an AR to use the warmage spell list? Ok, as far as I can tell there are lists of Substitution Levels in the book/books they come from. None of these are specifically listed in the LGCS so the are not open. Retraining is an option of the LGCS that may allow a character to retrain a Substitution Level but only if they have access to it from an AR or some other source. Where is the confusion coming from?
JamesMaissen 02-10-07, 11:21 PM	Well actually, there is. Spellcasters cast spells from a spell list. Without access to a spell list, they can't actually cast any spells, even if they have spellcasting ability. This is im implicit in the possibility of not allowing access to all spells on a spell list, as was a problem with the warmage, and as is a (pending) issue with the beguiler. It is an artifact of declaring "everything" a rules item that must have access granted to it, rather than assuming that access to a specific rules structure includes access to all rules items within that structure. I'm sorry, but you have the class' spelllist but not always all the spells on that list available to cast by current rules, right? Is this where the confusion is coming from? To whit, if I find a wand of whelm and I'm a beguiler then I can use the wand. It does not mean that I can cast the spell directly without some form of access because by the LGCS rules the spell is not currently open to me. I don't see the point that you are trying to make here however. For racial substitution levels they aren't open access, so you couldn't retrain them anymore than you could choose them from the start. Likewise you couldn't retrain a feat for a feat that's not open to you, nor a spell, language or skills that weren't open at the time. At best I think this could go into a FAQ/DC that addresses 'common misreadings' that would say things like 'caster level is no longer a prereq for crafting'. The LGCS should not have to say so and imho is stronger for not saying so directly, but that said having it printed out in a public/official capacity is still a good thing. Does that make sense? -James
Saracen 02-11-07, 12:34 AM	Brit, Its a bookkeeping nightmare to look up everything you have MIC for a feat, especially for long time players. Suggestion: Make it a flat fee that rises as you level. Example1: 500 gp x character level. Example2: 500 gp x level of the feat x character level If I want to get rid of Scribe Scroll at 5th level its 500 gp x 1 x 5 = 2,500 gp. If I want to get rid of brew potion at 9th level its 500 gp x 3 x 9 = 13,500 gp. Ok maybe that is a bit harsh, but you get the idea. Bryan Blumklotz
Maesto 02-11-07, 01:05 AM	I took craft wand with my wizard at level 5, and craft wondrous item at level 3. I've used craft wand once, and regretted it ever since, because I could never get rid of it in a conversion (I think I made a want of Magic Missile, CL 5). I've used craft wondrous item many times; I couldn't even count. I've certainly sunk more than half my gold into craft wondrous item...
Timlagor 02-11-07, 04:43 AM	If you've used the Feat too many times to be able to work out the GP saved then you really shouldn't be retraining it away. You should have all the MIC sheets so it will be possible to calculate the gold saved with it even then. If the work is too much for you then don't retrain it. **************************************** ********** The confusion is coming from Samwise. I really can't see his point any more so I won't answer again (I think Britt's already given up).
Timlagor 02-11-07, 04:47 AM	Skill Point Retraining. You don't subtract skill points from retraining but (up to 4) skill ranks. You can then add them to any skill which is a class skill for any of your classes.
Swiftbrook 02-11-07, 07:23 AM	You need to add the line "Retraining can not increase a skill rank higher than 3 + character level." Counter Example 1) Rogue 1: Use Magic Device 4, Skill A 4, B 4, C 4, D 4, E 4, F 4, and G 4 Retrain (4 TU and 200 gp) UMD 4 + 4 = 8, Skill A 4 - 1 = 3, B 4 - 1 = 3, C 4 - 1 = 3, D 4 - 1 = 3, E 4, F 4, and G 4 2) Rogue 2: UMD 8, Skill A 3 + 1 = 4, B 3 + 1 = 4, C 3 + 1 = 4, D 3 + 1 = 4, E 4, F 4, and G 4 Retrain (4 TU and 300 gp) UMD 8 + 4 = 12, Skill A 4 - 1 = 3, B 4 - 1 = 3, C 4 - 1 = 3, D 4 - 1 = 3, E 4, F 4, and G 4 3) Rogue 3: UMD 12, Skill A 3 + 1 = 4, B 3 + 1 = 4, C 3 + 1 = 4, D 3 + 1 = 4, E 4, F 4, and G 4 Retrain (4 TU and 400 gp) UMD 12 + 4 = 16, Skill A 4 - 1 = 3, B 4 - 1 = 3, C 4 - 1 = 3, D 4 - 1 = 3, E 4, F 4, and G 4 4) Rogue 4: UMD 16, Skill A 3 + 1 = 4, B 3 + 1 = 4, C 3 + 1 = 4, D 3 + 1 = 4, E 4, F 4, and G 4 Retrain (4 TU and 500 gp) UMD 16 + 4 = 20, Skill A 4 - 1 = 3, B 4 - 1 = 3, C 4 - 1 = 3, D 4 - 1 = 3, E 4, F 4, and G 4 5) Rogue 5: UMD 20, Skill A 3 + 1 = 4, B 3 + 1 = 4, C 3 + 1 = 4, D 3 + 1 = 4, E 4, F 4, and G 4 So, at level 5 this Rogue has 20 ranks in Use Magic Device. I can't find any mention under the Skill Retraining section (p. 194) in the PHB II that the retraining of skills is limited to a max rank. The language "another legal one" is not used in this section or the Retraining introduction. -Swiftbrook
JohnduBois 02-11-07, 07:31 AM	You need to add the line "Retraining can not increase a skill rank higher than 3 + character level." The Retraining rules specifically state that you may only choose legal options. Having more than 3+HD skill points in a skill is not a legal option. Britt pointed this out to me a couple days ago.
RanielK 02-11-07, 11:02 AM	Well then, there you go. The rules document includes retraining. Retraining includes racial substitution levels. I have access to racial substitution levels. But instead, players are expected to know, by inference from that statement, that items included in a rule are not automatically accessible unless otherwise stated. So indeed, the warmage spell list is not accessible since you never list it as being Open. The spell list is a separate and distinct rules item, and by this definition if it isn't on the Open list it is not available without documentation. Where can I can get an AR to use the warmage spell list? This is really akin to saying "I have access to Feats. Since feats are open, and I have access to feats, I can select any feat appearing on any table that has the header FEATS." Which specific racial sub levels are open? Which ones are mentioned under retraining? Retraining also allows you to retrain a feat, but you have to have that feat open to you to get it. Same goes for the sub levels. So I look through the LGCS and find the heading for Racial Substitution Level. Nothing. I look under Base Classes and Prestige Class for the same. Again, nothing. So it is not mentioned; therefor, they're not open. No racial subs for you!
Swiftbrook 02-11-07, 11:39 AM	The Retraining rules specifically state that you may only choose legal options. Having more than 3+HD skill points in a skill is not a legal option. I read that section twice before I posted. My English teacher should be ashamed of me: The most basic level of character revision is retraining-- that is, adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character's career by selecting a different legal option. Sorry, -Swiftbrook
Howie23 02-11-07, 02:20 PM	Retraining Upon gaining a new level, you may use any one Retraining option in the Player’s Handbook 2 192-195, following the rules listed there. The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC. Retraining costs 4 TUs and (100 GP x your new level) for any option. These TUs may be paid out of next year’s total, if necessary. If a magic item creation feat is lost through Retraining, you must pay extra GP equal to the amount of GP saved by use of the feat. Reword last sentence: "If a feat or <rules element> is lost through retraining that has been used for magic item creation, you must pay extra GP equal to the amount of GP saved by the use of the feat." Rationale: closes retraining metamagic feats, spells, or skills used to create an item then trained away. Examples: metamagic rod of foo, foo is a metamagic feat then trained away; an odd spell is needed for crafting, then trined away once used for the item; 5 ranks of jump are needed to craft boots of striding and springing, then trained away as wizards don't need to be very agile. David
Swiftbrook 02-11-07, 03:17 PM	Retraining Upon gaining a new level, you may use any one Retraining option in the Player’s Handbook 2 192-195, following the rules listed there. The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC. Retraining costs 4 TUs and (100 GP x your new level) for any option. These TUs may be paid out of next year’s total, if necessary. If a magic item creation feat is lost through Retraining, you must pay extra GP equal to the amount of GP saved by use of the feat. "the rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC". If a rules option is NONC and I have documentation to use it, is it Open for my PC, or is it NONC, but I can just use it? For example, if I get access to a racial substitution level, can I retrain it's 1st level substitution? Note: I don't honestly believe I will get said access, but I want to try. :) -Swiftbrook
clannagh 02-11-07, 10:50 PM	Retraining Upon gaining a new level, you may use any one Retraining option in the Player’s Handbook 2 192-195, following the rules listed there. The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC. Retraining costs 4 TUs and (100 GP x your new level) for any option. These TUs may be paid out of next year’s total, if necessary. If a magic item creation feat is lost through Retraining, you must pay extra GP equal to the amount of GP saved by use of the feat. If you are retraining skills is that 100gp per level per skill retrained or 100gp per level regardless of how many skills you altered this retraining level
Mithreinmaethor 02-11-07, 10:56 PM	If you are retraining skills is that 100gp per level per skill retrained or 100gp per level regardless of how many skills you altered this retraining level Its 100gp x newly attained level to be able to retrain. For your question thats the cost to move 4 skill ranks. You can only use a Retrain once per level. You can not retrain 10 different things when you gain 1 level, just one item chosen from the chart. Not sure if that was what you were getting at.
GreatSiron 02-13-07, 04:55 PM	Can we retrain levels? I mean if i take a lvl of something i don't like, can i retrain into another class i have access to?
Timlagor 02-13-07, 05:10 PM	No. Changeing classes is under the heading of "Rebuilding" not "retraining"
Bosstone 02-13-07, 05:29 PM	If a rules option is NONC and I have documentation to use it, is it Open for my PC, or is it NONC, but I can just use it?The new Dispel Confusion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgif/20070213a) answers that.Q: I can’t find a rules option listed in the LGCS. Does that mean it is open or closed? A: It is technically neither. The LGCS only lists rules options you can take without documentation, and rules options you can never take. Anything that is not listed in the LGCS requires campaign documentation. Once you receive such campaign documentation, the rules option is effectively opened for your PC.There's also stuff in there that pertains to racial substitution, too.
Cardinal Teplin 02-14-07, 10:57 AM	What happens to groups that don't have the PHB2, but are obliged to use the retraining rules by the LGCS? There was this idea that you only need the PHB, DMG and MM to play, but using the PHB2 retraining rules in situations where character change is mandated kinda violates that, doesn't it?
haferka 02-14-07, 02:07 PM	I may have missed it.. but I didnt see a restriction in the "Retraining" options that prevented players from exceeding the Max skill rank for your level. I would assume that the standard PH rules for Max Skill ranks still apply.. but perhaps a Dispell confusion could clarify this for anyone who tries to use this loophole to get into a prestige class early.
solbergb 02-14-07, 04:52 PM	The retraining has a rule that says you have to do something LEGAL. They do not have to spell out all the things you can't do. Just don't expect to be able to do anything you couldn't have done when you were actually at the level you took the thing you are retraining away and you can't go wrong.
pedr 02-14-07, 05:19 PM	Except the ranks to skills thing does allow you to do something you couldn't do the level you took the ranks. If I take four ranks of Swim at fighter 1, then retrain when I get to 2nd and take a level of wizard, I can swap those ranks to ranks in Knowledge (Arcane). You don't have to remember where you got the skill ranks from - so long as you retrain into a class skill for one of your classes, you're fine. I'm not the best at thinking through implications of things for builds etc, but this seems to me as it'll make some PrCs easier to get into.
Mommy was an Orc 02-14-07, 05:36 PM	Except the ranks to skills thing does allow you to do something you couldn't do the level you took the ranks. If I take four ranks of Swim at fighter 1, then retrain when I get to 2nd and take a level of wizard, I can swap those ranks to ranks in Knowledge (Arcane). You don't have to remember where you got the skill ranks from - so long as you retrain into a class skill for one of your classes, you're fine. I'm not the best at thinking through implications of things for builds etc, but this seems to me as it'll make some PrCs easier to get into. As an example, you do this to get into Unseen Seer: Spot 4 0 0 0 (4) Search 3 0 0 (4) 2 Hide 2 0 (4) 2 2 Sense Motive 4 0 0 0 0 Spellcraft 0 4 0 0 0 () = Retrain Instead of needing to spend 24 skill points cross-classing Spot/Search/Hide, you only need to spend 6 and then use 9 normal skill points. That's a savings of 9 skill points at a cost of 1200 gold. But more importantly, it means pretty much any rogue 1/wizard 4 can retrain their way into Unseen Seer despite the apparent need for 28 skill points over 4 levels of Wizard - a 14 Int non-human could pull it off, stealing from the base Rogue skill points if he had to do so.
solbergb 02-14-07, 05:37 PM	I didn't say there weren't edge conditions that violate the spirit of the rule. I just said that if you stuck to what was possible, as was clearly intended, then you can't go wrong. Almost all of the "Can I do <illegal thing>" are excluded, and that includes EXCEEDING maximum skill ranks. There is probably a way to come out a little ahead on cross class skill ranks.
pedr 02-14-07, 05:59 PM	Yeah - I should have emphasised that it was a good rule-of-thumb and a quick and easy answer to the 'can I do 'x', I don't own PH2' questions. Just wanted to point out the one major exception :)
Mommy was an Orc 02-14-07, 06:04 PM	Almost all of the "Can I do <illegal thing>" are excluded, and that includes EXCEEDING maximum skill ranks. There is probably a way to come out a little ahead on cross class skill ranks. The example above of the Unseen Seer does more than that - it makes it possible for a non-18 Int Human/20 Int Grey Elf to get into Unseen Seer with Rogue 1/Wizard 4, which opens a lot of different Unseen Seer builds up - such as a Human with a 14 Str/14 Dex/14 Con/16 Int using Master's Touch for Greatbow or Spiked Chain(depending on feat choices at 1st/3rd) The Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Servant 4/Arcane Trickster build almost gets as many Sneak Attack dice as a regular Rogue(+6d6) and with Greater Invisibility being self-supplied...
clannagh 02-14-07, 08:15 PM	Except the ranks to skills thing does allow you to do something you couldn't do the level you took the ranks. If I take four ranks of Swim at fighter 1, then retrain when I get to 2nd and take a level of wizard, I can swap those ranks to ranks in Knowledge (Arcane). You don't have to remember where you got the skill ranks from - so long as you retrain into a class skill for one of your classes, you're fine. I'm not the best at thinking through implications of things for builds etc, but this seems to me as it'll make some PrCs easier to get into. The way i read it you only need to have a single level of a class in your build to eventually move unlimited class skills across. For example INT 10 and one level of cleric without retraining gives you 2 ranks of knowledge religions as a class skill. With retraining and the same one level of cleric you could move 4 ranks every level into knowledge religion counting it as a class skill.
Howie23 02-14-07, 08:24 PM	The way i read it you only need to have a single level of a class in your build to eventually move unlimited class skills across. For example INT 10 and one level of cleric without retraining gives you 2 ranks of knowledge religions as a class skill. With retraining and the same one level of cleric you could move 4 ranks every level into knowledge religion counting it as a class skill. Up the the maximum ranks for your level, yes. You can do this with 4 ranks of any skill that is a class skill for you, including the class you are taking the level that you do the retraining. I like the way that it makes for a more organic progression. It allows you to take things at low level that are more important then, but subsequently replace them as your build develops. David
RanielK 02-15-07, 09:36 AM	Examples: metamagic rod of foo, foo is a metamagic feat then trained away; But who in their right mind would get rid of Foo? Foo is fun (especially zombie foo). It's when you add multiple aardvarking and explosions that the real fun starts, though. :P Sorry, failed will save and was unable to resist a Joe Bob Briggs reference.
Trollios 02-15-07, 12:09 PM	I took extend spell at first level. now at 7th level can I retrain it to Craft Arms and Armor? I meet the qualifications for CAAA now, but it wouldn't have been a legal choice for my first level feat, can I do this?
solbergb 02-15-07, 02:40 PM	It has to be a legal choice for the feat you are swapping out. Eg, my sorceress may want to swap out extend spell, which she took at level 1 Stuff on her shortlist as a L11 caster silent spell still spell (but only with accellerated metamagic or retrain and access to alternate class feature for sorcerers to swap familiar for limited accellerated metamagic feats.) Accellerated metamagic (spellcraft 12, L9 minimum) arcane strike (bab 4, L8 minimum) familiar bond (I think this had some requisite that made it a L4+ option, can't remember) Of the list, only silent spell and still spell are possible retrain options, because the others she could not have taken at level 1, and still spell is undesirable unless she is at L12 or L15 where she can simultaneously take accellerated metamagic. In reality, I'm probably not ditching enlarge spell unless I have accellerated metamagic or something similar, since a primary use of the spell these days is to get close range metamagicked spells to work further away. If I could "move and shoot" a metamagic spell, I wouldn't need it much. So this char probably won't retrain anything until it is time to swap enlarge for still.