Post/Author/DateTime	Post
amnuxoll 05-09-07, 11:39 PM	Reply to this post and tell me what you think the most overpowered open rules item in Living Greyhawk is. Please DO NOT post to argue about it. Just post your opinion. (If you must argue, create a new thread.) My Vote: Power Attack
Southernskies 05-09-07, 11:43 PM	Spiked Chain + Improved Trip. Improved trip is the only feat that not only gives you a +4 bonus, avoiding AoO, it gives you a free attack afterwards (All the other "improved" chains only give the bonus and AoO avoidance).
bitznarf 05-09-07, 11:54 PM	By far and away the most broken core rules item Edit:for PCs is 7/8th level magic. Take your pick of any of the broken spells of that level. Finger of Death perhaps? High CL Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos. Perhaps Repulsion at Sorc/Wiz6. Prismatic Wall maybe. Maze. Forcecage. Otto's Irresistible Dance. And thats just skimming the spell lists in the SRD. I assume by Core you mean PHB, MM, and DMG.
_metz_ 05-09-07, 11:54 PM	1. Daring Outlaw (why take rogue or swash levels when you can take both) 2. Occult Slayer, should be a roleplaying issue but everyone just takes it for the abilities 3. Craft Wondrous Item
Mommy was an Orc 05-10-07, 12:18 AM	Unseen Seer. Gestalt PrC with no real entry prereqs.
Shieldhart91 05-10-07, 12:39 AM	Skullclan Hunter. So you get to add your sneak attack damage to -every- attack made against undead. Talking about strolling the CR like it's a sunny day outside. The spiked chain thing is tricky. And that's why oozes exist- to make spiked chain fighters cry for their mommy. Nothing else comes to mind right now...I just woke up and seem to have forgotten the cheese in every book... Oh yeah. Clerics in general ;-) Huzzah. Not that I was ever complaining about this class being cheesy.
King Kashue 05-10-07, 12:45 AM	Unseen Seer. Gestalt PrC with no real entry prereqs. There's an issue with the PrC being a unified system of abilities? :confused: I thought that was a good thing (i.e., that the problem with many PrCs is that they're just "a dip")...
bitznarf 05-10-07, 12:46 AM	Please DO NOT post to argue about it. Just post your opinion. (If you must argue, create a new thread.)..
jstorrie 05-10-07, 01:01 AM	Ruathar, Unseen Seer, and Cleric. Also Dwarf and Snow Elf.
lostpike 05-10-07, 01:15 AM	Spellwarp sniper and sandblast. Hewards fortifying bedroll 3k and now spellcasters only need one hour of rest to be able to memorize spells. I bought this the moment I saw it for my wizard.
King Kashue 05-10-07, 01:19 AM	Hey Biz, I'm asking for clarification, not arguing...so stuff it...;)
Lupo 05-10-07, 01:26 AM	grey elf wizards with a starting INT of 20 ;) - no playable race has a positive wis or cha adjustment tumbling dwarves in heavy armor :) CRAFTING - due to the fact that characters CANNOT simply claim items after an adventure and pay the same amount of money the party would get for selling it. power attack with two-handed-weapons marshal - always "active" aura is plain silly, should use a bard-like mechanism the obvious one(or two)-level-dips: alienist (uhps, not open) occult slayer ruathar (uhps, not open either) fatespinner AND FINALLY TOP OF THE LIST: RADIANT SERVANT OF MIGHTY CHEESE - not only that it grants all he goodies, it is by far the only good prestige class for clerics (ok, there are "church inquisitor" and "sacred exorcist" but "radiant servant" beats them by miles - and it is plain open) ciao martin m. ps: none of my two clerics HAS or IS GOING TO have levels in "radiant servant" both seem to be straight clerics all the way - character creation prior to latest major rule swapping, but if i will play another cleric he will be one for sure.
gomeztoo 05-10-07, 02:00 AM	My main vote goes to Power Attack (should have capped at +5, like Combat Expertise).
Haro 05-10-07, 02:56 AM	The Motivate Dexterity minor aura ability of the Marshal is the most broken 'thing' in LG that is Open access. I play a Marshal and refuse to take it. First runner-up: Power Attack. Should cap at +5 like Combat Expertise. Also imbalances two-handed weapon fighting over two-weapon or sword and board style. Second runner-up: Arcane Strike. Same reasoning as above. If every type of PC simply must take a feat, then it is overpowered. Put simply, every Gish must take Arcane Strike. The honourable mentions are; Spiked Chain, Radiant Servant PrC, Animated Shields and finally the Travel Domain ability. Joe
clannagh 05-10-07, 03:06 AM	I actually think nothing in LG is "broken" compared to some of the other stuff out there. Have a look at illithid savant (savage species) or *cough cough* planar shephard (Faiths of Eberron) .. before coming down too hard on the LG legal stuff. Seriously, compared to a class that wildshapes with planar traits can have planar companions and as a class ability makes everthing within 30' take on the traits of the chosen plane the LG stuff is pretty mild. I think circle do a good job of keeping the nonsense out.
_metz_ 05-10-07, 03:12 AM	Please DO NOT post to argue about it. Just post your opinion. (If you must argue, create a new thread.) Thats 2 in 15 posts who didn't read the initial post... not bad really... I would have said druids, but now they have been nerfed so much lol ;) I'd like to add: Deepwarden Dwarf: Allows Fighter types to bypass the need for Dex, Con and Str, with only needing 2 primary stats, d12 HD despite being a ranger class, good skills... list goes on, is considered a 2 level no brainer for any dwarf fighting type, usually on the road to another class.
Jenner2057 05-10-07, 06:13 AM	I have to put my vote in for level one Beastmaster. This PrC is so amazingly front-loaded, I haven't seen a druid without a one level dip in it for quite some time.
JohnduBois 05-10-07, 07:20 AM	Dervish Power Attack
Sieylianna 05-10-07, 07:52 AM	Unseen Seer. I expected it to be closed and was very much surprised to see that it was open access. It's going to take a year or so before the numbers get to where they are noticeaable. Ed
Prof. Pacali 05-10-07, 11:16 AM	Here are my candidates: 1) Extra Rage: No one takes more than 1 (2 max) levels of Barbarian, because they can burn a feat and get three rages per day, which is generally the number of combats in an LG mod (and it's also rare to have all three on the same day) 2) Radiant Servants, Greater Turning, Disciple of the Sun: anything that allows mid-level clerics to turn powerful undead to dust by breathing 3) Marshall auras: Marshalls can activate their auras as a swift action... and they stay active all day! I thought marshalls are supposed to be shouting, speaking, whatever. Shouldn't they get laryngitis in the middle of the mod? :) 4) Glitterdust: My sorceror is a prime abuser of Glitterdust. He has stopped encounters in their tracks by casting Glitterdust at the right time. Should be a third or fourth level spell. Then there are Rogues, who are not underpowered, but who need accomodation in LG. Yes, Rogues: Only wanted when there's a trap to disarm. Can't use the skills move silently or hide, due to Box Text, or DM fiat. Which is odd considering that scouting takes like 30-45 seconds: four rolls, hide, move silently, spot and listen, and that in home games everyone is so paranoid that the DM has something up his sleeve that they spend hours scouting. Possible solutions might be to rein in the Box Text, and to instruct writers to accomodate scouting. Players should encourage players of rogues, scouts, rangers and shadowdancers to scout ahead and report what obstacles are ahead. This should be standard operating procedure in a dungeon crawl, whether in an interactive, or in Greyhawk Ruins.
amnuxoll 05-10-07, 11:19 AM	Thank you, folks, for not arguing about each others' votes. Please keep them coming! =) :AMN:
thorinXXX 05-10-07, 02:20 PM	#1 Power Attack #2 Power Attack #3 Spiked cheese #4 Modivate Cheese (Dex) #5 Radiant Servant of Cheese
MatteBlack 05-10-07, 03:51 PM	I think Class dipping is the biggest problem, especially from PrCs. If people weren't cherrypicking the early special abilities of classes and not taking the remaining "soft" levels most of the rest of the game would be alot less broken.
CdrcJsn 05-10-07, 04:13 PM	Cure Light wounds and Lesser Vigor Everyone uses those two spells right? Must be broken. Amirite? Honestly though, I don't really think anything is broken. Broken implies something is unplayable either to being overpowered or underpowered. Certain PrCs, spells and feats are more optimal for a given role so players that have crunched the numbers are more prone to take those. Just because something is used a lot doesn't mean it's broken.
Rerednaw 05-10-07, 04:21 PM	Reply to this post and tell me what you think the most overpowered open rules item in Living Greyhawk is. Please DO NOT post to argue about it. Just post your opinion. (If you must argue, create a new thread.) My Vote: Power Attack Hmmm so many. For DM's: Templated critters. The Hydra. DM tactical coordination and omniscience. For players/DM: The Cleric. Radiant Servant. Fatespinner. Limited Wish. Improved Trip, Improved Grab (more for DM's since their critters usually can have a size/stability/reach/str advantage.) Spiked Armor. Spiked Shield. Spiked Chain. Spiked anything. Most of the Conjuration school. Most of the Enchantment school. Most of the Divination school. Glibness. Diplomancers. Rage. Reckless Rage. Enlarge. Mounted Combat. Critical Strike. Spirited Charge. Goliath Greathammer on a Spirited Charge while Enlarged with Critical Strike. I would say though the most encounter breaking item I've seen, the most often used with the most radical impact would have to be: The RPGA rewards cards. (Free feats, metamagics, critical hits, auto-misses, auto-debuffs, auto-heal/stabilize, negating surprise rounds, etc. Imagine if the BBEG could use them. )
trollbill 05-10-07, 04:25 PM	[/SIZE] Imagine if the BBEG could use them. ) I keep thinking about writing a mod where the BBEG can do just that. Can you imagine the expression on the players' faces when they cast all these spells to sneak up on BBEG and he whips out a Feign Surprise, or they hit him with a mega-spell and he plays Not This Time? :schemes:
JohnduBois 05-10-07, 04:38 PM	Thank you, folks, for not arguing about each others' votes. Please keep them coming! =) :AMN: Oh... I forgot the best broken item ever... Grease (just for you, Nuxoll)
LachlarlanIII 05-10-07, 05:37 PM	All crafting feats. They vastly over-inflate the wealth of any character capable of using them. I should know, I use them. ;)
Maesto 05-10-07, 10:21 PM	Hmmm some good suggestions here. I'm going to go with cards. I think they single-handedly ruin more encounters than any other mechanic ;-) Edit: Yeah, I'm going to have to go orbs as well. My pet favourite is orb of force. All of the lesser orbs too. And the bigger ones. Gah, put the lot in. SR: no? Come on now... Arcane are now best at killing golems, and that shouldn't be happening...
JohnduBois 05-10-07, 10:31 PM	OK, I've changed my mind. The model of brokenness for me (and I can't believe I didn't think about this earlier) is the Orb spells from SpC - stuff that violates the basic trade-offs that exist in the game. Wizards can do lots of energy damage, but sometimes have to overcome resistance to spells. Orbs get rid of this restriction. This is similar to my argument against Dervish and things that pounce - you can move, or you can full attack. To allow this balance to be broken needs to come with a significant cost (which is there for most things that pounce, but not with Dervish).
_metz_ 05-10-07, 11:20 PM	oh yes, orbs, definitely... caster: "waaah... waaah... a power attacking fighter can do as much damage as my no SR spells that hit easier..." *Waves hand for Orb's not being open for non warmages...
King Kashue 05-10-07, 11:47 PM	OK, I've changed my mind. The model of brokenness for me (and I can't believe I didn't think about this earlier) is the Orb spells from SpC - stuff that violates the basic trade-offs that exist in the game. Wizards can do lots of energy damage, but sometimes have to overcome resistance to spells. Orbs get rid of this restriction. This is similar to my argument against Dervish and things that pounce - you can move, or you can full attack. To allow this balance to be broken needs to come with a significant cost (which is there for most things that pounce, but not with Dervish). Particularly the Orb of Force... So, you're conjuring an orb of magical force, but spell resistance doesn't apply because it's conjured...The magical force...that's what's conjured? The magical force?...Just want to be clear on the fact it's the magical force that doesn't have to deal with SR...
paigeoliver 05-11-07, 03:16 AM	The Entangle Spell. - I hate this spell with every fiber of my being. I hate it when bad guys cast it, I hate it when party members cast it.
chesspiece 05-11-07, 09:38 AM	There are a bunch I agree with, so I'll only add one that hasn't been mentioned yet. Warchanter. The ability to give Shocktrooper (without charging requirement - so it works on full attacks) is too good to be true. And it synergizes well with the Dervish prereqs.
JohnduBois 05-11-07, 10:58 AM	There are a bunch I agree with, so I'll only add one that hasn't been mentioned yet. Warchanter. The ability to give Shocktrooper (without charging requirement - so it works on full attacks) is too good to be true. And it synergizes well with the Dervish prereqs. That is not the only "too good to be true" aspect of the class. Inspire Awe and Inspire Toughness are both fantastic, especially since you can Combine Songs with two of the good songs at once.
Tarlyn Alurach 05-11-07, 11:15 AM	How about invisible flying enlarged tigers? With pounce. And chill touch. And enrage animal. Played RHoD and the poor dragon didn't do anything more than get airborne before the druids and their tigers took him out. And I even buffed the dragon...:weep: And mobs.
MeepoTheMighty 05-11-07, 02:36 PM	And mobs. Oh yes, mobs are disgustingly overpowered. Especially when they have a special ability whose DC is triggered by hit dice. Ghoul mobs, I'm looking at you.
bitznarf 05-11-07, 02:39 PM	But what is your opinion of the *most* broken rules option?
Tarlyn Alurach 05-11-07, 02:42 PM	Oh yes, mobs are disgustingly overpowered. Especially when they have a special ability whose DC is triggered by hit dice. Ghoul mobs, I'm looking at you. Amen brother. I refuse to run or play any mods that have mobs in it. But I am working on writing mod that has mobs of abysal ghouls in it. Just to show how badly it's broken.
Genghis Cohen 05-11-07, 03:13 PM	1. Glitter Dust - My min/maxed gray elf casts glitter dust like the way that a junkie grabs a needle. He can't kick the habit. 2. Metamagic School Focus + Rapid Spell + Summon Natures Ally 6+ for air elementals and their whirlwind. My druid as a level away from this. I've played alongside a druid has just abused NPCs to the point where you have to wonder if NPCs have rights with the RPGA. 3. Wall of Thorns - I never heard so many DMs say "I hate druids" until I started casting this. 4. Spiked Chain - Melee battlefield control. Its really not that broken by itself. Its when you combine a spiked chain with Enlarge Person, Combat Reflexes and Exotic Reach from EWM that you shut things down.
solbergb 05-11-07, 03:29 PM	after seeing how unseen seer tends to insinuate itself into builds, I think I have to give it the prize of currently open stuff. That PRC gives too much for too little cost.
copper_wyrmling 05-11-07, 03:45 PM	Broken / highly game-changing: - Unseen Seer - Shock Trooper (primarily in conjunction with pounce / spirited charge) - Holy Word / Blasphemy etc - Assorted no-save no-SR PHB battlefield control spells (Wall of Thorns, Solid Fog, Evard's Black Tentacles, etc) More powerful than it should be: - Metamagic School Focus (especially for specialist wizards) - Fire Seeds (holly berry bombs) - Dervish - Fatespinner - Radiant Servant of Pelor - Beastmaster (one-level dip) - *Maybe* two-handed power attack (from the perspective of someone who plays a L10 dervish with a number of tricks boosting his attack bonus and not a lot boosting his damage; his optimal PA versus normal ACs is rather higher than the 0-3 range others have been quoting). The orbs don't make my list: they're useful backup direct damage, but not much more than that. Usually there are still better things to do with a standard action and a fourth-level spell than throw orbs at monsters.
Mommy was an Orc 05-11-07, 05:57 PM	after seeing how unseen seer tends to insinuate itself into builds, I think I have to give it the prize of currently open stuff. That PRC gives too much for too little cost. Oh, c'mon over to the dark side, Brad. Your soul is a small price to pay for Critical Strike ;)
solbergb 05-11-07, 06:00 PM	more likely that instant search spell than critical strike if I was to go down that road. My "rogue" doesn't actually expect to get flanks and such much, or win initiative. He just does rogue-sneak-level damage (for a non-TWF rogue) vs most targets the hard way.
_metz_ 05-11-07, 06:15 PM	Amen brother. I refuse to run or play any mods that have mobs in it. But I am working on writing mod that has mobs of abysal ghouls in it. Just to show how badly it's broken. Its mod writers doing this and getting people killed that really don't help. Its not about Killing PCs when writing modules, its about giving players some fun... If/when I get the oppurtunity to join the ranks of AUthors for LG I would hope that I keep this in mind, sure have mods challenging, but deliberately using a broken template... oh yes. I also hate Ghoul Mobs. (We all know where we saw them...) I do find it odd that you refuse to play/DM a game with em in it... but in the one game where YOUR characters aren't at risk its ok... USUALLY a good bet is, if YOU wouldn't enjoy the mod, why are you writing it?
Redfist 05-11-07, 06:18 PM	You also need to leave room for the possibility that the author added them because they were thematic (ie: positive intent) instead of deciding it was a good way to kill PCs (ie: negative intent). At this point though, mobs have been overdone. New books come out, people try out new things. Some turn out to be fun, some not. Live and learn but more importantly, move on.
_metz_ 05-11-07, 06:35 PM	There is something that is broken. Mod writers who have lost the plot and just want to kill a few players. Deliberatley putting in waaaay over CRed stuff for no reason other than to kill people. IF its plot relevant it makes sense... but if it isn't: "random hydra" for example...
Tarlyn Alurach 05-11-07, 08:17 PM	I want to show the other guys just how badly mobs are broken. Just remember, a mob is made up of ANY medium sized creature. Again: ANY medium sized creature. Any? Any. Medium sized creature? Yep. CR8? Yep. Oh lordy.
pado 05-11-07, 09:33 PM	Halfling on a dog with Power Attack and Spirited Charge. Or even worse, a half orc on a horse with Tunnel Riding, Power Attack and Spirited Charge.
cycloptic_squirrel 05-11-07, 09:59 PM	I want to show the other guys just how badly mobs are broken. Just remember, a mob is made up of ANY medium sized creature. If all you want to do is show that something's broken/under CRed, writing a mod is the perfect example of what NOT to do. What do you hope to accomplish by authoring an adventure that will anger far more people than it will entertain? If you want to throw in an unteired encounter because the PCs were stupid or they accepted a mission that was obviously suicidal, that's fine. But endangering many PC just to prove a point? I can't think of anything more asinine. If you're going to write, do for the story or for the presentation of an interesting tactical situation or to set a general theme for an area NPC. But I can't think of a single point I'd like to make that would be best accomplished by penning a module. I'd like to think there is a silent trust between players and the people who provide play opportunities (authors, editors, triad, etc). Every time something obviously overpowered is thrown in without good reason, a little of that trust erodes. If this happens often enough, people get frustrated and leave; no one wants to invest themselves in a character that they're relatively sure will meet their end in a TPK designed by some author who was on a power trip and wanted to demonstrate how overpowered they could make an encounter. I have higher expectations for this campaign. Want to prove it's broken? Write about it. Set up mock battles. Dare someone into a special mission you author where you can go nuts. But PLEASE don't put it in a module just to prove it doesn't belong in a module.
Sieylianna 05-11-07, 10:14 PM	I want to show the other guys just how badly mobs are broken. Just remember, a mob is made up of ANY medium sized creature. Again: ANY medium sized creature. Any? Any. Medium sized creature? Yep. CR8? Yep. Oh lordy. Really? I believe an interactive I was in featured a mob of horses at a higher APL. Ed
Tarlyn Alurach 05-11-07, 10:33 PM	If all you want to do is show that something's broken/under CRed, writing a mod is the perfect example of what NOT to do. What do you hope to accomplish by authoring an adventure that will anger far more people than it will entertain? If you want to throw in an unteired encounter because the PCs were stupid or they accepted a mission that was obviously suicidal, that's fine. But endangering many PC just to prove a point? I can't think of anything more asinine. If you're going to write, do for the story or for the presentation of an interesting tactical situation or to set a general theme for an area NPC. But I can't think of a single point I'd like to make that would be best accomplished by penning a module. I'd like to think there is a silent trust between players and the people who provide play opportunities (authors, editors, triad, etc). Every time something obviously overpowered is thrown in without good reason, a little of that trust erodes. If this happens often enough, people get frustrated and leave; no one wants to invest themselves in a character that they're relatively sure will meet their end in a TPK designed by some author who was on a power trip and wanted to demonstrate how overpowered they could make an encounter. I have higher expectations for this campaign. Want to prove it's broken? Write about it. Set up mock battles. Dare someone into a special mission you author where you can go nuts. But PLEASE don't put it in a module just to prove it doesn't belong in a module. Not assanine if you stop and think about it. My entire point with it is to show that the mob rules need to be seriously errata'd. I want the guys who came up with the mob rules to play test it and then sit there and tell me something isn't wrong.
cycloptic_squirrel 05-11-07, 11:27 PM	Not assanine if you stop and think about it. My entire point with it is to show that the mob rules need to be seriously errata'd. I want the guys who came up with the mob rules to play test it and then sit there and tell me something isn't wrong. Then write a special mission. Heck, just run those people through a mock combat or two. Also, I'd be pleasantly surprised if those in charge of errata play LG, and even then the chances of them playing your mod would be low, unless you know otherwise. My point is why subject a bunch of LG players to a broken combat that the people you are trying to prove something to might not even play? You're subjecting a lot of players to a lot of unnecessary grief. The LG players sitting down to play your adventure didn't come up with the mob rules. They might even agree with you before they even heard of your mod! It's kinda like throwing a water balloon full of paint at your girlfriend and then remarking, "That's why my sister shouldn't allow water balloons full of paint in the house." And you sit there wondering why your girlfriend looks mad. :confused:
katrick 05-12-07, 04:47 PM	Stormlord gets a ninth level spell once per day katrick
Haro 05-12-07, 08:28 PM	There is something that is broken. Mod writers who have lost the plot and just want to kill a few players. Deliberatley putting in waaaay over CRed stuff for no reason other than to kill people. IF its plot relevant it makes sense... but if it isn't: "random hydra" for example... Y'know Metz, in the past I have shat on people from a great height for having this opinion. In the approx. 200 ARs I have, I have never gotten the impression that a writer was *ever* motivated solely by trying to kill PCs in an encounter. I've conclusively proven to many that poor GM prep/execution was the cause of this myth. Then I played a certain Core scenario last night that changed my mind. It was so bad at the APL we played (14) that the players looked at the statblock and tactics afterward and just shook our heads. It was a shame, as the rest of the adventure was well put together. Still, one out of 200 is still a pretty good track record eh? :) Joe
Timlagor 05-12-07, 08:43 PM	more likely that instant search spell than critical strike if I was to go down that road. What spell is that?
ezreal2001 05-12-07, 10:05 PM	What spell is that? That'd be a Spell compedium spell, but lvl 1 swift action +2 on one search roll there's not a lot in that. OTH Spontaneous Search (another SC spell)- now thats just wrong lvl 1 single round cast time do a take 10 search on everything within 20 feet of the caster - My rogue gets 37 on a take 10, has a level of Wizard and Maesto some how got hold of wand this brand of wrongness(don't suppose you've bought anymore?), so when we did City of Brass my PC the wand to scour the place in record time. J
King Kashue 05-13-07, 04:17 AM	Then I played a certain Core scenario last night that changed my mind. It was so bad at the APL we played (14) that the players looked at the statblock and tactics afterward and just shook our heads. It was a shame, as the rest of the adventure was well put together. Why do I suspect that I know the mod?... If I'm correct, it's even worse at APL 10, and the most broken mathematically legal bad guy I've ever seen...
Haro 05-13-07, 04:37 AM	Why do I suspect that I know the mod?... If I'm correct, it's even worse at APL 10, and the most broken mathematically legal bad guy I've ever seen... The fact that you used the term 'mathmatically legal' means you know exactly what mod I am talking about. ;)
Puggle Halfwine 05-13-07, 06:10 AM	The fact that you used the term 'mathmatically legal' means you know exactly what mod I am talking about. ;) I don't know the mod in question. :( Now I'm going to be paranoid every time I play above APL 8...! Curse you! Curse you hard!
Dasher2k 05-13-07, 06:47 AM	Nightmare Spinner
_metz_ 05-13-07, 09:20 PM	Y'know Metz, in the past I have shat on people from a great height for having this opinion. In the approx. 200 ARs I have, I have never gotten the impression that a writer was *ever* motivated solely by trying to kill PCs in an encounter. I've conclusively proven to many that poor GM prep/execution was the cause of this myth. Then I played a certain Core scenario last night that changed my mind. It was so bad at the APL we played (14) that the players looked at the statblock and tactics afterward and just shook our heads. It was a shame, as the rest of the adventure was well put together. Still, one out of 200 is still a pretty good track record eh? :) Joe I think I played that game two days ago. Absoluteley RIDICULOUS. Had to spend up a couple of favours just to escape with the dead bodies of my comrades... It didn't help that we were a little underpowered, but even still, I couldn't see how being at the right APL would have helped after looking at the Encounter afterwards...
_metz_ 05-13-07, 09:23 PM	Nightmare Spinner You have to be joking? You lose caster progression, and get an ok death ability 3 times a day - that other mages can replicate easily? Also its charisma based... menas suitable for sorcerors which makes the caster loss hurt really badly... THis really isn't broken compared to what else high level wizards can do. (Shadowcraft mage, Fatespinner, etc) I would like to put a vote in for Shadow Magic. It isn't balanced with normal stuff at all, and is a bit of a joke. WHy they gave us some access is beyond me... (Was considering making my cohort a shadow caster but then realised that was just stupid and I couldn't be bothered explaining the Tome of Magic to every GM from then on)
Majoru Oakheart 06-19-07, 06:37 PM	Dervish Why do I get the strange feeling I caused this opinion? :D
JohnduBois 06-19-07, 07:19 PM	Why do I get the strange feeling I caused this opinion? :D I hate to burst your bubble, but I was using my vampires to Dominate broken dervishes (*waves at Gary Sarver*) long before I encountered your Ketite cheese... ;)
LGMoses 06-21-07, 09:27 AM	There is something that is broken. Mod writers who have lost the plot and just want to kill a few players. Deliberatley putting in waaaay over CRed stuff for no reason other than to kill people. IF its plot relevant it makes sense... but if it isn't: "random hydra" for example... lol, i Sooo remember that mod :snicker:
codyknotts 06-22-07, 03:11 PM	[QUOTE=Maesto;12361906]Hmmm some good suggestions here. I'm going to go with cards. I think they single-handedly ruin more encounters than any other mechanic ;-) The cards are ridiculous because they get used each module. They should disappear as one time use favors. I personally hate to see them at the table when I DM. Our local group does not use them when we play as we all see them as a bit silly. Ruins the game, but great marketing from Wizards, when you play with someone with them, you want to play more to get them.
bitznarf 06-22-07, 03:21 PM	I'm going to go with cards. I think they single-handedly ruin more encounters than any other mechanic ;-) The cards are ridiculous because they get used each module. They should disappear as one time use favors. I personally hate to see them at the table when I DM. Our local group does not use them when we play as we all see them as a bit silly. Ruins the game, but great marketing from Wizards, when you play with someone with them, you want to play more to get them. I disagree. What the cards do (in part) is help deal with the shortcommings of the way wealth is handled in LG. For example if you never spend a single gp on consumables, you come close to the wealth by level guidelines as laid out in the DMG. I don't know the exact numbers right now, but there are several threads floating around with the numbers in them. When PCs start spending money on things that 'go away' they get further and further away from those wealth by level guidelines. The cards and one time AR favors and the like help to balance out that difference between actual wealth and expected wealth. Just consider the cards a renewable resource worth X gold. The actual amount of gold each card is worth is variable, but it is a good way to look at them in my opinion.
lseelba 06-22-07, 09:41 PM	[QUOTE=Maesto;12361906]Hmmm some good suggestions here. I'm going to go with cards. I think they single-handedly ruin more encounters than any other mechanic ;-) The cards are ridiculous because they get used each module. They should disappear as one time use favors. I personally hate to see them at the table when I DM. Our local group does not use them when we play as we all see them as a bit silly. Ruins the game, but great marketing from Wizards, when you play with someone with them, you want to play more to get them. The cards might change the game, but I don't really mind them as a DM. At least I know that everyone has the cards and they can be relied on when things get rough for the PC's. In fact if they don't have them I encourage people to borrow some from other PC's. I'd say when everyone uses them it just ups the power level in the game. What I consider broken is when a single PC has a set of feats or abilities that makes them dominate encounters, forcing all the other PC's to sit back and have less fun. It may be cool that you can bring down the BBEG in one round, but its not very cool for the guy who rolled bad initiative and never even got to act. That's my definition of broken.
Ian Demagi 06-26-07, 04:10 PM	Eclectic Learning for the Warmage-lets him get Mirror Image. Greater Invisibilty,Teleport, & Limited Wish-a bonanza for a Mage who is in essence a fighter who uses magic. Also stacking meta magic feats-"that orb of destruction is now a twined, maximized, sudden empowered-orbs of destruction...by the way what was the ranged touch AC????" Ian
CdrcJsn 06-26-07, 08:05 PM	Eclectic Learning for the Warmage-lets him get Mirror Image. Greater Invisibilty,Teleport, & Limited Wish-a bonanza for a Mage who is in essence a fighter who uses magic. Not really that overpowered. This alternate class feature allows warmages to learn normal wizard spells at one level higher than normal. Fly as a 4th level spell, Dimension Door as 5th, etc. Warmages can already access most of these spells via Arcane Disciple. It's a toss up which is better (Eclectic Learning means no MAD and cost of a feat, Arcane Disciple gets the spells 2 caster levels earlier). Also stacking meta magic feats-"that orb of destruction is now a twined, maximized, sudden empowered-orbs of destruction...by the way what was the ranged touch AC????" Which is what...a 9th or 10th level spell? A suitably buffed power attacking melee type could reach similar damage in a full attack and do it every round. In my experience, the most effective high level spells are not the damage dealing ones, but the ones that will allow you to control the pace of the fight (timestop, maze, bigby's crushing hand, etc).
Ian Demagi 06-26-07, 10:09 PM	"Which is what...a 9th or 10th level spell? A suitably buffed power attacking melee type could reach similar damage in a full attack and do it every round." Just the point, someone else buffed him ,Is he going to hit tough monster everytime, I dont think so. Who buffed the Warmage? Is the Warmage prohibited from casting another spell the next round? I am not saying that other spell types are not powerful, I just get tired of the direct damage haters, saying this is not powerful. Many DM's want the orb spells banned or nerfed. If you do not believe me, cruise over to EN World and read some of the threads. My DM has banned both Warmages and Orb spells from future play. What Mage wouldn't want Maze or Timestop? Not an option for the Warmage, but I am sure any warmage would love to have them, Ian.
bitznarf 06-26-07, 10:41 PM	The point is that direct damage spells are in general the least useful spells around. And that they are not broken. Thats it. Even something like the ability to do 2000 damage a round is inferior to a well built high level full caster (in my opinion). Sure, someone has to do damage, but casters will often have a better option than direct damage.
CdrcJsn 06-27-07, 12:43 AM	This is the broken feat/spell/etc. thread. 280 points of average damage for one round at level 18 is not all that unreasonable. Doing damage is good. But Warmages are far from broken.
Gelth 06-27-07, 10:21 AM	Item creation. Radiant Servant. Floaty Shields. Anything that lets you metamagic spells up above what you can normally cast, like metamagic rods. --Penn, Ket Triad
Mattastrophic 06-27-07, 10:27 AM	The point is that direct damage spells are in general the least useful spells around. And that they are not broken. Thats it. Even something like the ability to do 2000 damage a round is inferior to a well built high level full caster (in my opinion). Sure, someone has to do damage, but casters will often have a better option than direct damage. Seriously. Wall of Force, for example, often is a better option than direct damage. Also, metamagic feats are necessary to increase damage amounts at all. Ever notice how Fireball (3rd), Orb of X (4th), Cone of Cold (5th), Chain Lightning (6th), and Polar Ray (8th) all deal d6/lvl damage, only difference between them being caster level caps? Metamagic is where numbers any bigger than d6/lvl come from. Warmages being broken... hehehe... that's silly. -Matt
Mattastrophic 06-27-07, 10:30 AM	Anything that lets you metamagic spells up above what you can normally cast, like metamagic rods. By the time you can actually afford the rods, you're probably able to normally cast the spell. I've never heard of a Wiz5 packing a Lesser Maximize Rod, for example. -Matt
copper_wyrmling 06-27-07, 11:24 AM	By the time you can actually afford the rods, you're probably able to normally cast the spell. I've never heard of a Wiz5 packing a Lesser Maximize Rod, for example. -Matt I've seen a warmage 8 with a lesser rod of maximize, letting her do maximized fireballs (or any other L3 spell) four levels earlier than normal. Just saying. The metamagic rods my sorcerer really wants are the energy substitution ones that don't modify the spell level at all (the full versions, that work on L6 spells), but they seem exceedingly rare :(
Mattastrophic 06-27-07, 02:02 PM	I've seen a warmage 8 with a lesser rod of maximize, letting her do maximized fireballs (or any other L3 spell) four levels earlier than normal. Just saying. And as with any PC, outliers on the equipment/level scale do exist. Nothing worth banning metamagic rods over. -Matt
solbergb 06-27-07, 03:02 PM	I've seen a warmage 8 with a lesser rod of maximize, letting her do maximized fireballs (or any other L3 spell) four levels earlier than normal. Just saying. with me it was a sorcerer 8 I met. Still, it was most of her cash, and 48 area damage/half save damage at APL8 3 times a day still isn't that big a deal. It's about what my archer does every round, all day. In that APL I'm usually much more scared of something like an evards.
Majoru Oakheart 06-27-07, 03:44 PM	Seriously. Wall of Force, for example, often is a better option than direct damage. This is really a matter of opinion. For example, in a battle interactive I played in that was just one big dungeon that all the players were in, we encountered(at the APL 12 portion of the dungeon) a Mind Flayer Sorcerer and some dwarves with shieldmate (or whatever its called). The dwarves had good will saves, the dwarven bonus to save against all spells and were cheesed out with feats, and PrCs that made them hard to hit. Our fighter types were missing like crazy. So, the Mind Flayer was behind the dwarves. Our wizard decided he could use Wall of Force to block off the mind flayer from us and his allies and dispel it later so we didn't have to deal with all the enemies at once. I was playing a cleric, and after about 3 rounds of the fighters not being able to even hurt the dwarves, I just gave up and flame-striked them, reducing them to half their hit points. I convinced the other cleric to flame strike them as well and they died. Unfortunately, we failed to notice the door BEHIND the Mind Flayer. The creature, realizing that there was a wall between it and us, just walked out the door, and towards the APL 2 portion of the dungeon. He ended up almost TPKing all of the low level players before we finally dispelled our own wall and ran after him. Also, metamagic feats are necessary to increase damage amounts at all. Ever notice how Fireball (3rd), Orb of X (4th), Cone of Cold (5th), Chain Lightning (6th), and Polar Ray (8th) all deal d6/lvl damage, only difference between caster level caps? Metamagic is where numbers any bigger than d6/lvl come from. Warmages being broken... hehehe... that's silly. Although, I'm not of the belief that warmages are broken, it really depends heavily on your point of view. If you are in an encounter with, say, 2 creatures at APL 10, each has, say 142 hit points, can do an average of 75 damage(and more with power attack) a round with its attacks, and has the fire subtype. In this case, it may be a matter of "kill at least 1 monster before it goes or someone dies". A sudden empowered Orb of Cold from a 10th level warmage does 88 damage(on average, due to doing 1.5 damage against a fire subtype creature and warmage edge) with no save(against the damage at least) and basically almost no chance of failure(the creature has a touch ac of 8). Two warmages in the party and now one of the creatures is dead for sure. That's in one round without any chance of failure. That can seem pretty broken to some people. Especially when, during the same round the fighter moves up, gets hit by an AOO for 25 damage, then attacks once and misses. Or when the wizard in the party casts a hold monster and the above creature makes his save on a 12, or glitterdust them and they make their save on a 9, or any number of other spells have still fail a large amount of the time. The thing about D&D is that damage in king and a lot of people underestimate that when choosing flashy or "cool" spells. The difference between a Fireball and a Bands of Steel is that one has a large percent chance of doing absolutely nothing the other one has a large percent chance of making the monster drop a round earlier and do one less round of attacks(even if it makes its save).
solbergb 06-27-07, 03:58 PM	. That can seem pretty broken to some people. Especially when, during the same round the fighter moves up, gets hit by an AOO for 25 damage, then attacks once and misses. Because...your fighter sucks? Fighters don't usually miss on their top iterative any more than warmages at APL10 miss on their touch attacks. Against the kind of monsters described, fighters will usually let the monster come to them and then get their full attack. that touch AC might be 16 though...after cover and in melee. Just saying. There is quite often a concealment miss chance to contend with as well. Lets try a better comparison. How about two archers instead of two warmages. The warmages will be a bit ahead of the damage vs cold subtype creatures, but not vs the vast majority of creatures. Might as well compare the two archers with "bane" arrows and call "bane" overpowered. Or Holy vs demons compared to the orb spells - the archers will perform as well as the empowered orb will do or better, and their damage doesn't cap at level 10 (force) or get reduced by energy resistance (sonic getting smaller damage die and others losing 10 off the top) Your argument is a straw man - you pick a contrived scenario where if your party has two warmages that have not used their sudden empower already, they do about twice their expected amount of damage. Versus an average opponent at APL10, they do 35 points of damage plus edge, call it 40. So does an archer. They get sudden empower, the archer gets a crit from time to time. Actually, a well designed archer will be doing more like 50-60 points a round vs most opponents at APL10 - 35 is a pretty medeocre archer or one that is missing more than once per salvo. Trying to outdamage such a creature with raw magic is why we claim direct damage spells are almost by definition not overpowered. A lot can go wrong, not the least of which is NOT rolling 88 points of damage on a shot or NOT having both warmages go before both monsters go (so one is just wounded, and proceeds to kill somebody) A wall of force turns the fight into a "fight just one monster" so the healing might keep up. A solid fog might mean "we can now full attack and 5' step back, and it gets only one attack as it inches forward, or we can attack with missile attacks for a couple rounds before they get ANY attacks. A mass fly might put the whole party out of harms way, allowing ranged combat to trivially defeat the monsters. Even something like prot energy might reduce the incoming damage to reasonable levels. Unless the damage can reasonably kill most EL appropriate creatures in one round of actions, it likely isn't overpowered. Given two rounds of actions, an EL approrpriate archer can kill most EL appropriate enemies, and melee creatures can almost certainly do so if they get two full attacks and many can do it with single attack charge+full attack.
Some_call_me_Tim 06-28-07, 05:01 PM	Divine Meta-magic Praise Odin, they fixed it. Radiant Servant of Pelor All the benefits of a cleric plus more. Spiked Chain Let's make a weapon that breaks the normal reach rules AND gives bonuses. These may not always break a game but they are obvious superior choices when min-maxing.
Redfist 06-30-07, 10:38 PM	Radiant Servant of Pelor All the benefits of a cleric plus more. Although I agree with your sentiment, there are 2 ways in which a Radiant Servant looses out to a cleric (albeit very minor). 1. Strength domain's ability is based off of CLERIC levels, not caster level. 2. Crafting a Phylactery of Undead Turning requires a 10th level or greater CLERIC (not caster level). --Gordon
Sieylianna 06-30-07, 10:56 PM	Although I agree with your sentiment, there are 2 ways in which a Radiant Servant looses out to a cleric (albeit very minor). They also lose one hit point per level. Ed
JohnduBois 07-01-07, 11:32 AM	Although I agree with your sentiment, there are 2 ways in which a Radiant Servant looses out to a cleric (albeit very minor). 1. Strength domain's ability is based off of CLERIC levels, not caster level. 2. Crafting a Phylactery of Undead Turning requires a 10th level or greater CLERIC (not caster level). --Gordon I have a question on this: 1. How many Radiant Servants have the Strength domain? 2. How many Radiant Servants have you ever seen complain that they can't craft a Phylactery? What a Radiant Servant does is it allows a cleric to fill a particular cleric role or two EXCEPTIONALLY well. Whether that's broken or not is up for debate, but I know that I wouldn't mind seeing fewer of them - then again, I'm Triad for a region that uses a metric crapton of undead.
AOSOL 07-01-07, 12:05 PM	Dervishes and SHADOW CRAFT MAGES!!!
Sieylianna 07-01-07, 08:23 PM	I have a question on this: 1. How many Radiant Servants have the Strength domain? 2. How many Radiant Servants have you ever seen complain that they can't craft a Phylactery? Mine doesn't have the Strength domain, Sun and Healing. But they are really too good. I was looking at creating a Healer PC, since I argued for them being allowed in several of the previous LGCS reviews. But even a class which is dedicated to healing isn't as good as cleric/radiant servant. Healer has most of the favored soul penalties along with worse BAB, saving throws, and weapon options. It does get access to spells one level earlier and more skill points, but both its skill list and spell list are weak. Ed
Eric Anondson 07-01-07, 10:26 PM	Healer has most of the favored soul penalties along with worse BAB, saving throws, and weapon options. It does get access to spells one level earlier and more skill points, but both its skill list and spell list are weak.The healer base class is just begging for some alternate class features the way other classes have gotten alternate class features to replace underwhelming features.
Mattastrophic 07-01-07, 10:49 PM	But even a class which is dedicated to healing isn't as good as cleric/radiant servant. Waitasecond, so Radiant Servant is broken because it's stronger than Healer? Last time I checked, even Cleric15 was stronger than Healer. That doesn't prove anything. My opinion on Radiant Servants... hey, if it encourages people to actually play healing-types, it's a good thing. -Matt
CdrcJsn 07-02-07, 12:03 AM	My opinion on Radiant Servants... hey, if it encourages people to actually play healing-types, it's a good thing. -Matt HAHAHAHA! The last time I actually played with a Radiant Servant eager to heal was...oh, wait. NEVER! I think solberg mentioned in another thread about the searing light slinging radiant servant. The last game I played, I think I healed more than this other Radiant Servant...which is pretty amazing considering I was playing my joke character (Brd1/Clr1/Wiz5). It was also my Delay Death (via Arcane Disciple and Destiny domain) that saved the party tank (cleric didn't bother memorizing it, even after others asked him to).
Hariman 07-02-07, 12:20 AM	Spellwarp sniper and sandblast. Hewards fortifying bedroll 3k and now spellcasters only need one hour of rest to be able to memorize spells. I bought this the moment I saw it for my wizard. But any spells cast within the last 8 hours still count against the spells that you can prepare. My pet peeves? Clerics. They can replace half of a party. Some players in my area actually formed "Team Cleric" Spiked Chains on Orcs with Improved Trip. Hell, just spiked chains with high strength enemies. Especially in tight quarters. Druid/Beastmasters. I've seen Animal Companions that were stronger than BDFs, letalone other characters in the party.
Mattastrophic 07-02-07, 09:16 AM	HAHAHAHA! The last time I actually played with a Radiant Servant eager to heal was...oh, wait. NEVER! I think solberg mentioned in another thread about the searing light slinging radiant servant. That's very funny, actually. That Searing Light slinger is just gimping his BAB and HP by being a Servant. -Matt
copper_wyrmling 07-02-07, 09:40 AM	That's very funny, actually. That Searing Light slinger is just gimping his BAB and HP by being a Servant. -Matt Uh, why? Radiant Servants have the same BAB as clerics. They also have the same saves, so that first level gets you a nice +2 Fort / Will. It also gives you a bunch of extra greater turnings and full martial weapon proficiency, and if you stick with it over five levels you get an extra domain, everyone near you gets a bonus to Will saves and all your light spells get more powerful. For this, you lose five hit points. Oh, and if you did in fact bother to take the Healing domain, you get even more benefits. But you can completely ignore those benefits and the class is still far better than a single-class cleric. It's like fatespinner in that its benefits vastly outweigh its costs, but fatespinner doesn't annoy me so much because any arcane caster can qualify fairly easily, whereas radiant servant requires you to worship one of a set of specific deities. I tend to feel that your choice of deity should be primarily an RP thing: just as there shouldn't be a feat for clerics with the Windstorm domain only that gives +2 caster level while outdoors, it's annoying when an extremely powerful option is available for worshippers of particular deities and no equivalent options are available for PCs who chose to worship other gods. (And yeah, I play a cleric of Joramy. She'd be a LOT more powerful as a cleric / radiant servant of Pelor or Pholtus, but there's no possible IC reason for her to convert, especially after her meeting with Joramy last year.)
Mattastrophic 07-02-07, 10:08 AM	Uh, why? Radiant Servants have the same BAB as clerics. Well, let's do the math... Cleric6/RadiantServant5 (the "wonder" level you mentioned) = BAB+7 Cleric11 = BAB+9 Thus hindering his ability to sling Searing Lights. And Searing Light caps out at CL10th, FYI. Whether or not this "searing light slinging radiant servant" chose the Healing domain is irrelevant. He's a Searing Light slinger, DUH! Thus, we can assume that the Radiant Servant healing powers come into play only after combat for this guy. In which case, Empower Healing really doesn't matter, as any caster with Lesser Vigor and Craft Wondrous Item (for Pearls I) is sufficient to heal everyone out-of-combat. But anyways, to conclude: Just because someone has Radiant Servant levels does not make that PC a better healer. A player who makes the effort to heal makes the better healer. -Matt has two "all-healers." Of Hanali Celanil and Wee Jas, btw.
boolean 07-02-07, 10:29 AM	Uh, why? Radiant Servants have the same BAB as clerics. It depends on when you start taking Radiant Servant levels, but a Cleric 6/RS X will be one point of BAB behind a straight cleric for 50% of his levels. Compared to a fighter, a cleric loses one BAB every four levels starting at first. Taking levels of RS as early as possible shifts this loss two levels forward. Cleric Radiant Servant Level BAB BAB 7 +5 +4+0 8 +6 +4+1 9 +6 +4+2 10 +7 +4+3 11 +8 +4+3 12 +9 +4+4 13 +9 +4+5 14 +10 +4+6 15 +11 +4+6
Mommy was an Orc 07-02-07, 10:39 AM	Well, let's do the math... Cleric6/RadiantServant5 (the "wonder" level you mentioned) = BAB+7 Cleric11 = BAB+9 Thus hindering his ability to sling Searing Lights. And Searing Light caps out at CL10th, FYI. Cleric 11 has a BAB of +8. And it loses that advantage after 12th unless the Radiant Servant decides to go Cleric 6/Radiant Servant 9 for the extra +1 to Reflex saves. And at precisely that level, he can cast Bolt of Glory. At the next level, he can take Domain Spont(Glory) to cast it spontaneously(without tying up one of his two starting domains on Glory). The player might be doing a suboptimal tactic, but Radiant Servant is better at that tactic than a pure Cleric.
Mattastrophic 07-02-07, 10:55 AM	*counts on his fingers* Gahh, that's what I get for 7AM posting... Now that you mention Bolt of Glory... yeah, I can see the build fleshing out. Withdrawn. Main point I'd like to get across here: A Radiant Servant does not automatically make the better healer. A player who makes the effort to heal makes the better healer. Cleric 11 has a BAB of +8.
copper_wyrmling 07-03-07, 12:20 PM	*counts on his fingers* Gahh, that's what I get for 7AM posting... Now that you mention Bolt of Glory... yeah, I can see the build fleshing out. Withdrawn. Main point I'd like to get across here: A Radiant Servant does not automatically make the better healer. A player who makes the effort to heal makes the better healer. Of course player tactics matter. I never suggested otherwise - it was you who said that the existence of the Radiant Servant class encouraged people to play healers. A Radiant Servant who makes the effort to heal is a better healer than a non-Radiant-Servant cleric who puts in an equal amount of effort, though. (One has free Empowers on their domain spells and the other does not: the Radiant Servant has needed to invest a feat in Extra Turning, but since that fuels Divine Ward / Sacred Healing, it's a pretty good feat for a healer anyway.) And as I said above, the fact that it makes a better healer (if the player wants it to) is not actually my problem with the class. My complaint is that the healing powers, which are a fairly substantial benefit (most sources of free metamagic have been banned), can be ignored entirely and the class still gives benefits far out of line with its costs - if you happen to worship the right deity.
Mattastrophic 07-03-07, 12:35 PM	if you happen to worship the right deity. That seems to be the key phrase here. Why should Pelor/Atroa/Nola/Ehlonna/etc get all their own prestige classes, leaving everyone else out? The Circle has definitely opened up Radiant Servant, Shining (weapon), Stormlord, etc. to a decent amount of deities, more than just Pelor or Heironius for the first two. Let's not take it away because the rest of the deities don't have specific prestige classes. Plus, to those of us who gun for the underdog, it's fun that way. -Matt has clerics of Hanali Celanil and Wee Jas. Underdoggin'.
Puggle Halfwine 07-03-07, 01:15 PM	-Matt has clerics of Hanali Celanil and Wee Jas. Underdoggin'. Wee Jas is a FUN deity to play a cleric of. Anecdote: In my case, due to the whole 'negative energy channeling' problem, said cleric was also grossly underpowered and dangerous for convention organizers who see "Clr4" and assume "Great, he can heal for the APL 6 table!"... grr. :) Eventually I just ended up bringing a 'convention spell list'... but I made them pay, oh yes. ;) At one particular table I let the PCs know- I'm packing healing for you, sure, but if you fall down I'm also packing Death Knells too... because if you're chaotic, restoring you to life is an alignment violation for me. That didn't make me very popular, but it sure helped people stay on their toes. ;) (I wasn't seriously going to DK anyone...) Ahh well, those worries are long gone. Said cleric did a Bad, Bad Thing (TM) and got removed from the campaign. Featured (very briefly) as a bad guy in a local interactive, but (in my very humble opinion...) didn't get enough screen time and the guys who dealt with him were, unfortunately, the one table-full of people from interstate who just went... "We don't know you from a bar of soap, RAGECHARGEFULLPOWERATTACK!" He got away, but still. I was hoping for a huge showdown between him and his 'ex-friends'- most people involved even bought the right characters- but it didn't happen. You can't get everything you want. :) ... unless you worship Britt, that is. ;) I agree that Radiant Servant is definitely one of the more powerful options out there. I don't play them (despite having the option to) for the reasons many people have already outlined earlier in the thread.
Lupo 07-03-07, 01:24 PM	That seems to be the key phrase here. Why should Pelor/Atroa/Nola/Ehlonna/etc get all their own prestige classes, leaving everyone else out? The Circle has definitely opened up Radiant Servant, Shining (weapon), Stormlord, etc. to a decent amount of deities, more than just Pelor or Heironius for the first two. Let's not take it away because the rest of the deities don't have specific prestige classes. Plus, to those of us who gun for the underdog, it's fun that way. -Matt has clerics of Hanali Celanil and Wee Jas. Underdoggin'. i doubt it would rain "radiant servants of mighty rotten milk" like confetti on new years eve IF the entry requirements would be two "penalty" feats like the ones for "stormlord" ;) the problem is the lack of many other OPEN cleric prestige class (without any special entry requirement) with full caster progression that comes close to "radiant servant of mighty rotten milk", the only other one is "divine oracle" and this one stops turning progression and has "skill focus (religion)" as requirement, nothing anyone would take without needing it as prerequisite ;). ciao martin m.
localjester 07-05-07, 02:51 PM	You wanna know what is broken? How about Evard's Black Tentacles and worse yet Poisoned Evard's Black Tentacles
Mattastrophic 07-05-07, 03:38 PM	You wanna know what is broken? ...and worse yet Poisoned Evard's Black Tentacles Heh, I remember that module. But technically, that one's from Forgotten Realms, so it shouldn't qualify for this thread. -Matt still hasn't forgiven Steve Conforti for that POS encounter.
DuctShuiTengu 07-06-07, 03:24 PM	Heh, I remember that module. But technically, that one's from Forgotten Realms, so it shouldn't qualify for this thread. -Matt still hasn't forgiven Steve Conforti for that POS encounter. Amen to that.
bitznarf 07-11-07, 11:35 AM	But technically, that one's from Forgotten Realms, so it shouldn't qualify for this thread. I don't know what encounter you are talking about, but in my opinion what source book something is from should not matter, just so long as the item itself is not campaign specific. A spell is a spell, regardless of campaign setting. (Most of the time.)