Post/Author/DateTime	Post
budleiser 12-30-06, 09:40 PM	What kind of time or action is required to UMD a scroll? Are "Rhino Rush" scrolls (Level 1 Paladin) core access? The spell is a swyft spell, does that mean using a scroll to cast it is also swyft!? I don't spellcast much but if I recall full round spells still require full round via scroll.
Howie23 12-31-06, 12:01 AM	What kind of time or action is required to UMD a scroll? Are "Rhino Rush" scrolls (Level 1 Paladin) core access? The spell is a swyft spell, does that mean using a scroll to cast it is also swyft!? I don't spellcast much but if I recall full round spells still require full round via scroll. UMD takes a minute to decipher the scroll. UMD takes no additional action to cast from the scroll than the normal time to cast from a scroll. Rhino Rush scrolls are not available with LGCS access. Only scrolls from the DMG tables costing 750gp or less are LGCS access. Casting from a scroll is a standard action, minimum. It takes longer if the normal casting time is longer. David
Dr.Cornelius 01-01-07, 05:22 PM	Nice Try. Rhino's Rush is really powerful which is probably why it was removed from the Cleric spell list as of SpC. I have given it some thought, and there do not seem to be any easy ways other than four levels of Paladin or Ranger and "access". Depending on how Extra Spell (CA p.79) is played in your area, it might be possible to choose Rhino's Rush (a divine spell) after three levels of Cleric/Druid. If Extra Spell only allows selection of a spell from you class list, then it would require a one-level dip into Paladin or Ranger. But even then it is not clear that you can use a Cleric/Druid spell slot for it. Another option would be via the rules for single-use or x-per-day use activated items per the DMG, but I am not sure if these are LG legal and it would require Rhino's Rush "access" anyway.
budleiser 01-01-07, 10:11 PM	Nice Try. Rhino's Rush is really powerful which is probably why it was removed from the Cleric spell list as of SpC. I have given it some thought, and there do not seem to be any easy ways other than four levels of Paladin or Ranger and "access". Depending on how Extra Spell (CA p.79) is played in your area, it might be possible to choose Rhino's Rush (a divine spell) after three levels of Cleric/Druid. If Extra Spell only allows selection of a spell from you class list, then it would require a one-level dip into Paladin or Ranger. But even then it is not clear that you can use a Cleric/Druid spell slot for it. Another option would be via the rules for single-use or x-per-day use activated items per the DMG, but I am not sure if these are LG legal and it would require Rhino's Rush "access" anyway. :) Yup it would have been nice and easy with the scroll. I'll look up the Extra Spell as Druid would help my companion.
clannagh 01-01-07, 10:34 PM	The spell is not NPC only or restricted but it is definitely limited (its not on the core list in LGCS) .. you cannot take it without AR access AFAIK. Generally spells are limited for a reason and chasing overpowered spells has minimal benefit ... you just finish the combat quicker and get bored .. LG is a deliberately low powered campaign and hence is not a campaign where people will get excited or impressed about optimised characters with ludicrous abilities.
budleiser 01-01-07, 11:03 PM	Extra Spell: I don't think it lets you learn a spell from a different class. It looks like its a feat mostly for spontaneous casters giving them a feat to learn a new spell, or for wizards who can't find a spellbook/scroll to learn from.
Dr.Cornelius 01-02-07, 01:10 AM	I still think Extra Spell is a legitimate way to get "access" to a limited spell from a divine caster's class list. The opportunity cost is relatively high: Extra Spell takes up a Feat, does not grant any extra castings or other ability and is only allowed for spells one level below the character's current ability. If this is not the case, then what is the point of the limited list? Instead there should be a list of spells (and feats, etc) that are technically limited, but are effectively restricted due to lack of access through core or regional mods. One more thing - for us newbies it would be really, really useful to have an index of Mods and access. The way access works seems completely random making it nigh impossible to actively pursue a limited Prestige Class without at least some hints as to which mod to play which character.
Japangirl 01-02-07, 01:35 AM	RPGA rules state that you can't know in advance what access is in what mods. Your character has no way of knowing what adventure awaits them, or what loot the bad guys have. Asking for what mods give what access is considered cheating. It's frustrating, but it also makes sense when you think about it from a character-centered perspective. And no, Extra Spell does not allow you to pick a limited spell. Only a special mission or getting lucky and seeing it on an AR would allow you to get access to Rhino Rush or any limited spell.
Dr.Cornelius 01-02-07, 02:55 AM	RPGA rules state that you can't know in advance what access is in what mods. Your character has no way of knowing what adventure awaits them, or what loot the bad guys have. Asking for what mods give what access is considered cheating. OK - so I guess some of the players with key access are just "lucky".
budleiser 01-02-07, 01:15 PM	RPGA rules state that you can't know in advance what access is in what mods. Your character has no way of knowing what adventure awaits them, or what loot the bad guys have. Asking for what mods give what access is considered cheating. It's frustrating, but it also makes sense when you think about it from a character-centered perspective. What's sad about this rule is it generally frustrates people and encourages cheating. But really my frustration is the size of the access lists themselves. 99% of spells, feats, and prestige class access should be either core or banned. I have a hard time coming up a with reason to make something hard to get. Hard to get access often seems to come from the flavor of the access. To qualify for such and such class you must have completed such and such action. I say make these types of things Core access and allow the players to prequalify with their character background. Instead we have a system that hides information, and players who want their characters to be what they want to be feel the need to real life rogue it up and gather info.
Nutation 01-02-07, 02:04 PM	99% of spells, feats, and prestige class access should be either core or banned. Most of them are, in fact, core or banned. The 99% figure is just a rhetorical device without defining how you quantify.
kegdrainer 01-02-07, 05:59 PM	Most of them are, in fact, core or banned. The 99% figure is just a rhetorical device without defining how you quantify. I think he is suggesting that rather than having Limited or NPC categories, there should only be Core or Banned.
clannagh 01-02-07, 09:09 PM	What's sad about this rule is it generally frustrates people and encourages cheating. But really my frustration is the size of the access lists themselves. 99% of spells, feats, and prestige class access should be either core or banned. I have a hard time coming up a with reason to make something hard to get. Hard to get access often seems to come from the flavor of the access. To qualify for such and such class you must have completed such and such action. I say make these types of things Core access and allow the players to prequalify with their character background. Instead we have a system that hides information, and players who want their characters to be what they want to be feel the need to real life rogue it up and gather info. I agree about there being too many allowed special classes and feats. As far as limited feats spells and classes ... the idea seems to be to limit people sitting down and predesigning a power built combat monster from level 1 through to 15 that they then proceed to play while totally ignoring the experiences of the character and sticking to their pre-conceived power build. Almost all of my characters have ended up quite different to the original idea of what they might do because of items, cohorts or special PrC access they have acquired. With the exception of a small core of power gamers, generally in LG power built special characters are looked down upon .. you only need to look at the derogatory comments about "radiant cheese-weasels" at conventions when radiant servants pop up to get the idea.
budleiser 01-02-07, 09:19 PM	I agree about there being too many allowed special classes and feats. As far as limited feats spells and classes ... the idea seems to be to limit people sitting down and predesigning a power built combat monster from level 1 through to 15 that they then proceed to play while totally ignoring the experiences of the character and sticking to their pre-conceived power build. Almost all of my characters have ended up quite different to the original idea of what they might do because of items, cohorts or special PrC access they have acquired. With the exception of a small core of power gamers, generally in LG power built special characters are looked down upon .. you only need to look at the derogatory comments about "radiant cheese-weasels" at conventions when radiant servants pop up to get the idea. You misunderstand im not comp[laing theres lots to choose from. My complaint is you NEED access to choose anything. Things should be Core or Banned. What you said about power level is a bunch of balogne. :P Theres plenty of power builds in PHB and DMG.
clannagh 01-02-07, 09:24 PM	My complaint is you NEED access to choose anything. Things should be Core or Banned. . Most of the limited PrC's I have come across are limited because something rather unusual needs to happen. Contemplative requires you meet a god, temple raider requires a sepcial invitation from a member of the order, ruathan requires you do soemthing significant for elves .. etc. I think having a PrC like contemplative as limited is a good thing it means if you character ever gets it .. it makes the character special .. and the character may well take a level in it even if it deosnt help the build so much.
budleiser 01-03-07, 12:41 AM	Most of the limited PrC's I have come across are limited because something rather unusual needs to happen. Contemplative requires you meet a god, temple raider requires a sepcial invitation from a member of the order, ruathan requires you do soemthing significant for elves .. etc. I think having a PrC like contemplative as limited is a good thing it means if you character ever gets it .. it makes the character special .. and the character may well take a level in it even if it deosnt help the build so much. If we were all playing the same mods that would be great. If every DM had the option of tailoring events for us so that those requirements could be met, the way those events would happen in a homegame; that would be great. But were playing in a living campaign and theres no real reason why that fluff needs to carry over, or could not have been achieved in our heroe's background before we even started playing him. So what ends up happening is players cannot build what they want to build unless they hit the jackpot. And everyone loves to jump on this optimal build bandwagon, but its just as bad for roleplayers. If I want a prestige class not because its abilities are good, but because I think its a cool class. I can't build it. I would have to build it, constantly play it and hope to get lucky. And then what happens, we play that character, we go through tons of levels never seeing said access. We take different feats because we don't think were gonna get access. We run low on TU's so we start a completely different character. And then that character bumps into the access instead. Or you just never see it because its just not featured in your region this year. So in the end if someone wants to build something but needs access to something they feel inclined to cheat and ask around. If that's the behaviour its going to cause for the game then they should just move it from limited to core or banned and be done with it. Well that wouldn't make such and such special: Everything else on the AR already makes us special. The outcomes we determine and what favors we get makes us special. The access to new items make that AR special. Being able to upgrade a weapon to do X. Being able to upgrade armor to do X. Being able to buy such and such mount. To take such and such animal as our familiar/animal companion. The things on the limited list do little to balance power in the game and instead cause frustration and limitations to your own character building options. Again this is not about making your character stronger or better. Its about making it more of whatever you want.
ranagrande 01-03-07, 05:13 AM	Most of the limited PrC's I have come across are limited because something rather unusual needs to happen. Contemplative requires you meet a god, temple raider requires a sepcial invitation from a member of the order, ruathan requires you do soemthing significant for elves .. etc. I think having a PrC like contemplative as limited is a good thing it means if you character ever gets it .. it makes the character special .. and the character may well take a level in it even if it deosnt help the build so much. Contemplative and Temple Raider are both core access. Many core prestige classes such as those two have special requirements that must be met before taking them. Many limited prestige classes, such as Tactical Soldier and Wild Mage, do not. Personally, I don't mind the system. If you really want to play something limited, access usually isn't that hard to get. If you're willing and able to travel, you can probably find a meta-org somewhere that will unlock it for you. If not, well that's what special missions are for.
budleiser 01-03-07, 08:23 AM	Contemplative and Temple Raider are both core access. Many core prestige classes such as those two have special requirements that must be met before taking them. Many limited prestige classes, such as Tactical Soldier and Wild Mage, do not. Personally, I don't mind the system. If you really want to play something limited, access usually isn't that hard to get. If you're willing and able to travel, you can probably find a meta-org somewhere that will unlock it for you. If not, well that's what special missions are for. I know someone who has waited a very long time for his special mission. Yes the Triad did get around to doing it, but lets face it. This a volunteer system, triad and circle members don't get paid. They have full time jobs to keep up with, families to take care of, hobbies outside D&D and even the most diligent will fall behind when things get rough. They have cons, events, rules to work on, serious player issues, not so serious player issues, battle interactives to create, working with authors to yay or nay access on AR's, many of them write mods, mod playtesting. Asking for a special mission is just yet another flood of work for overworked volunteers. Just because you "don't mind" the current system, does not mean that is optimal.
jhorred 01-03-07, 02:13 PM	Just because you "don't mind" the current system, does not mean that is optimal. It'd be darn near impossible to come up with a system that everyone considers optimal. So we all have to live with a system that has what we see as flaws. I support the current limited system. It's not perfect but it is good. Of course there are things in it that will evolve but that is the way of things in a Living Campaign. I'd rather have structure and a, perhaps, imperfect attempt at balancing the campaign as opposed to a campaign that has no regulation in character power level, which is what I see as the purpose of the LGCS. My characters tend to evolve with little planning, but my 3rd character was intended as a Shadowbane Stalker(SS) from the beginning. I gave him a background that would support this career path. Lo and behold SS is limited, but the Pale website says one can apply (in character) to become a member, so that is what I planned to do. I was very fortunate to play the right character in the right mod and got access to it. (yay!) So I didn't have to apply to the triad for it. What I find somewhat ironic, is that the same fellow who complained that LG mods were too easy is complaining that access to 'power builds' is limited. IMHO, if you were truly unchallenged by the mods, I'd think that you'd challenge yourself by building less optimal characters and not look for ways to do even more damage in combat. I know it's fun to do more than 150 pts of damage a round, I've done it with my fighter. (Hamon, fighter13, fighter 12 at the time. Yeah, I know a fighter11,barb2 would give me other advantages, and a more mutt approach would produce a more powerful melee character, but that is why he is a fighter13.) I challenge you to go back to more iconic characters and challenge yourself to build effective characters out of them. Two of my characters will be single class until retirement and after that too. I've looked at other classes/PrCs for them and decided not to take them because alot of other people used them. cough*Fatespinner*cough I don't see my Dwarven Evoker taking levels in that PrC although it would make him more effective, the prereqs for it don't fit his character. I know we all play this game for different reasons, so there is no right way to play it. The above is my opinion which goes along with my feeling of sadness when I see people more concerned about what gives them the best numbers on a piece of paper than anything else the game has to offer. I admit that I spend my share of time paying attention to the numbers too, but I it feels wrong to me to mutt the character out to 6 different classes like my buddy did for the sack of more damage, etc. I'm not sure how to convey why it feels wrong to me, but it just does. I guess what I'm suggesting is if you aren't having fun playing LG the way you have been, try a different way.
budleiser 01-03-07, 02:50 PM	It'd be darn near impossible to come up with a system that everyone considers optimal. So we all have to live with a system that has what we see as flaws. I support the current limited system. It's not perfect but it is good. Of course there are things in it that will evolve but that is the way of things in a Living Campaign. I'd rather have structure and a, perhaps, imperfect attempt at balancing the campaign as opposed to a campaign that has no regulation in character power level, which is what I see as the purpose of the LGCS. I agree with regulating the power level. Ban the problems, don't hand them out like candy. My characters tend to evolve with little planning, but my 3rd character was intended as a Shadowbane Stalker(SS) from the beginning. I gave him a background that would support this career path. Lo and behold SS is limited, but the Pale website says one can apply (in character) to become a member, so that is what I planned to do. I was very fortunate to play the right character in the right mod and got access to it. (yay!) So I didn't have to apply to the triad for it. Thats great your success story is inspiration to all of us. What I find somewhat ironic, is that the same fellow who complained that LG mods were too easy is complaining that access to 'power builds' is limited.[quote] Please try and separate the topics. I know its my fault for being so active in one topic that any topic I enter will now carry some of that over. This is not about access to power. I tried very hard to point that out in my posts above. Sorry I failed. [quote] IMHO, if you were truly unchallenged by the mods, I'd think that you'd challenge yourself by building less optimal characters and not look for ways to do even more damage in combat. I know it's fun to do more than 150 pts of damage a round, I've done it with my fighter. Wow thats a lot higher than I can dish out even with a confirmed crit and all bonuses. If I was dishing out that kind of damage I certainly would have no right to complain would I. (Hamon, fighter13, fighter 12 at the time. Yeah, I know a fighter11,barb2 would give me other advantages, and a more mutt approach would produce a more powerful melee character, but that is why he is a fighter13.) I challenge you to go back to more iconic characters and challenge yourself to build effective characters out of them. Two of my characters will be single class until retirement and after that too. I've looked at other classes/PrCs for them and decided not to take them because alot of other people used them. cough*Fatespinner*cough I don't see my Dwarven Evoker taking levels in that PrC although it would make him more effective, the prereqs for it don't fit his character. I know we all play this game for different reasons, so there is no right way to play it. The above is my opinion which goes along with my feeling of sadness when I see people more concerned about what gives them the best numbers on a piece of paper than anything else the game has to offer. I agree those kind of players suck. I admit that I spend my share of time paying attention to the numbers too, but I it feels wrong to me to mutt the character out to 6 different classes like my buddy did for the sack of more damage, etc. I'm not sure how to convey why it feels wrong to me, but it just does. I guess what I'm suggesting is if you aren't having fun playing LG the way you have been, try a different way. Sadly when 2 topics are going on at the same time its hard for people not to combine the 2. I tried to make it a very strong point my goal with a change of access was not to increase or decrease PC power levels. I'm not sure how many times I can state this and further explain this before it can sink into anyones mind. I feel like im slamming my head against a brick wall now. Having a limited list causes or can cause: :Overly powerful builds to go unnoticed because of the small number of people who have access to it :Frustrates players who want to build a ____. :Players resort to cheating so they can build their _____. :People to NOT even try building a _____ since limited is as good as banned, unless they randomly bump into access. :Creates more work for the Triad, forcing them to create special missions for characters who really want _____.
ranagrande 01-03-07, 04:19 PM	So your solution would be to ban everything on the limited list? I'm sorry, but I think that's a terrible idea. Imposing even more limits isn't the answer. As for having all limited material divided into core or restricted, well, Britt has already said that that can't be done for logistical reasons. Besides, I actually like limited access. I think that having to work a little harder to get certain things makes them seem more meaningful. As for your concerns: :Overly powerful builds to go unnoticed because of the small number of people who have access to it I don't think they go unnoticed so much as people just don't care. There are so many overly powerful core builds that having a few limited ones doesn't change anything. No matter how many crazy combinations you can get, a straight druid or cleric is still one of the most powerful characters around. :Frustrates players who want to build a ____. If you really want to build a certain character, go for it. There are plenty of options available for getting access. : Players resort to cheating so they can build their _____. Sadly, people who want to cheat are going to whether there are limited classes or not. If they're not cheating to find access, they'll cheat for the right favors. Cheating is a separate issue altogether. : People to NOT even try building a _____ since limited is as good as banned, unless they randomly bump into access. There's really nothing wrong with that. There are lots of perfectly viable builds that only use core access material. That's how most of my characters are. If people want to play it safe and stick to core-only, that's fine. :Creates more work for the Triad, forcing them to create special missions for characters who really want _____. Yes this does create more work for the Triad, but it's part of their job. Also, it may not be quite as much work as you think. Anyone can write a special mission, and the Triad just has to authorize it.
jhorred 01-03-07, 05:01 PM	Wow thats a lot higher than I can dish out even with a confirmed crit and all bonuses. If I was dishing out that kind of damage I certainly would have no right to complain would I. Ok, I admit I was full power attacking an AC 5 tree while hasted. Perhaps an extreme example. But I have seen a mounted paladin do an excess of 100pts of damage a round with spirited charge and ride by attack. I can ony match that with a good bit of luck. I did kinda digressed by bringing in a couple of your posts from other topics, but this whole thread has gone off topic. Honestly, after your other posts, I took your original post in this topic as looking for a way to weasel around the limited access limitations. If this was not the intent of the post then I apologize for misreading it, but when you rail against the entire limited access system you come across as a power gamer. Now that may be the farthest from the truth but that is how I percieve it. I know you see the limited access system as having major flaws, but many of us don't have a problem with it and work within the system. Which is what my story with the Shadowbane Stalker was supposed to illustrate. I guess that didn't work out so well.
jhorred 01-03-07, 05:02 PM	Besides, I actually like limited access. I think that having to work a little harder to get certain things makes them seem more meaningful. I like it as well.
clannagh 01-03-07, 06:05 PM	crits in excess of 150 points are not unusual even with straight builds without prestige classes and PHB weapons lets look .... 1. non optimised level 15 barbarian with reckless range and strength 24 (20 str native and 4 STR from belt .. both reasonable at level 15 with 4 stat bumps for a fighter class) ignore scythe and use a "more reasonable" great axe ... full power attack and assume you just under roll average (D12 + STR*1.5 + PA*2) * 3 (crit) = (6 + 15 + 30) * 3 = 153 damage 2. Level 15 Paladin with lance double handed using spirited charge, lets make his strength 18 (bit low but hey) and NOT smite and only power attack for 10 (D8 + STR*1.5 + PA*2) * 5 =(4 + 6 + 20) = 150 damage note that the paladin can actually crit for stupid damage if it smites and uses full power attack .. both of these builds are just basic straight PHB
UMiskatonic 01-04-07, 10:38 AM	Well, as this isn't really about scrolls anymore... One of the things that the 'limited' list allows is local variation. The things which show up in Highfolk mods tend to be suitable for that region, which has a lot of elves, rangers, and fey. So, plenty of chain shirts, special arrows, darkwood, ironwood, thisledown armor, etc. Those same things would be stupid in Ket, where elves are not considered citizens, and lack many basic rights that 'people' have. You get access to DIFFERENT limited things then. I've played in both regions, and I like the way it works.
UMiskatonic 01-04-07, 10:43 AM	You also GAIN the ability to react to things from a character perspective. For the longest time, my rogue resisted joining the local Thieves Guild, because she wasn't one of -those- kinds of people. Then, I was found guilty of a crime that another party member committed, and now I'm a wanted criminal. Additionally, the same year, my clan booted me out for being half-human. So, lacking a community, and needing some help, I joined the thieves guild at 12th level. It's fun role-playing, and it has the added bonus of being realistic.
CrystalBlue 01-04-07, 01:38 PM	I understand your problem about the limited stuff. But you have to understand that not everyone can get everything. Prestige classes are called that for a reason. Prestige. That means that you have to be pretty high-faluten or gotten on someone's good side to learn the basics of the class. Honestly, in my home campaign, I plan on making all of my characters have to go to different places to level up. If they want to level up as a wizard, they have to spend some time in the academy learning how. If they want to become a ranger, they have to spend time out in nature, learning how to track and sneak around. Rogues have to do a bit of practicing on picking locks and bluffing their way out of something. Every class, technically, has things that one needs to learn about in order to become that class. Logic dictates that you can't be a fighter and just leap into spell casting like that. Wizards sometimes take years to learn their craft. That's why they all have beards and glasses. XD But seriously, you can't expect to have eveything you want right away. In the same token, you shouldn't be restricted on what you can have either. If a fighter wants to learn to sling spells like his friend and wear some moderate armor while doing so, why shouldn't he be able to learn from a Spellsword? Or a cleric that is dedicated to bringing down corruption within their church, why would you bar them access to Church Inquisitor. If you have a good, valid reason for a special class then there's no reason you should be denied it. The ONLY reason we have NPC-Only and Restricted is: 1.) Because of the powergamers that would wreck the system if they truely wanted to. 2.) To give authors more to challange you with then what you are used to. 3.) Because some things are just way too hard to keep track of and use correctly. Understand the if you opened all the books up, you'd have shamans, wu-gen, and shadowcasters all over the place. Placing all of those new rules into Living Greyhawk would just be upping the ante and need more memorization. Although...I do like my shadowcaster...so no one touch him. *growls and fox-nibbles on his wizards ear*
_m_ 01-07-07, 10:28 PM	Although...I do like my shadowcaster...so no one touch him. *growls and fox-nibbles on his wizards ear* i like my shadowcaster too, but thats a null issue, because shadowcasters are a fair chunk of the way behind the curve however: i think its not just important, but absolutely vital, to have limited things. how could anyone ever feel unique if every other player had access to everything they had. i LIKE being able to say, i'm a shadowcaster, how cool am i, you can't be one. and then they say: in a nightsong enforcer, you can't be one. then we both say: how cool are we :D see, fun! if everyone said: we all could be exactly what you are, you are boring and not unique. not fun.
clannagh 01-07-07, 10:40 PM	i like my shadowcaster too, but thats a null issue, because shadowcasters are a fair chunk of the way behind the curve however: i think its not just important, but absolutely vital, to have limited things. how could anyone ever feel unique if every other player had access to everything they had. i LIKE being able to say, i'm a shadowcaster, how cool am i, you can't be one. and then they say: in a nightsong enforcer, you can't be one. then we both say: how cool are we :D see, fun! if everyone said: we all could be exactly what you are, you are boring and not unique. not fun. I agree ... Generally the calls to "level the playing field" tend to come from competitive players who see unusual access as a case of other players "cheating" in a little private race they are having inside their own head to build the "best" characters. For that sort of player even having an unusual or funky character is seen as a competition you need to try and "win". The competitiveness can even extend to trying to nobble other peoples builds. It's a wee bit sad really.
Samwise 01-07-07, 11:25 PM	Wait . . . but it's not competitiveness to want to have a unique build that nobody else gets to have? The whole thing works both ways. Some people only feel satisfied if they get to exclude others from their special PC, others only feel satisfied if they aren't excluded from anything - whether they do it or not. And, as it happens, a "competition" is only created if certain things are limited by random appearance in an adventure. People must now make an effort to get access to certain things they feel are needed to create their desired character. A nice problem, eh?
_m_ 01-07-07, 11:38 PM	Wait . . . but it's not competitiveness to want to have a unique build that nobody else gets to have? The whole thing works both ways. Some people only feel satisfied if they get to exclude others from their special PC, others only feel satisfied if they aren't excluded from anything - whether they do it or not. And, as it happens, a "competition" is only created if certain things are limited by random appearance in an adventure. People must now make an effort to get access to certain things they feel are needed to create their desired character. A nice problem, eh? kind of a catch 22 the people clannagh was talking about are more likely to want a unique character because it's the 'best', rather than they want to be an individual. i like my shadowcaster leprachaun gnome insane wizard green shadow guy because role play wise, he is unique, their isn't another like him. if there were lots of them running around, it would take alot of the fun from the game. what we want (and by we i mean me) is kinda what we have: the ability for everyone to be unique: i get to be a shadowcaster, someone else is a consecrated harrier. as long as everyone gets the opportunity to be unique, we should all get to have fun.
Samwise 01-08-07, 12:07 AM	kind of a catch 22 Not kind of, it is one. the people clannagh was talking about are more likely to want a unique character because it's the 'best', rather than they want to be an individual. i like my shadowcaster leprachaun gnome insane wizard green shadow guy because role play wise, he is unique, their isn't another like him. if there were lots of them running around, it would take alot of the fun from the game. what we want (and by we i mean me) is kinda what we have: the ability for everyone to be unique: i get to be a shadowcaster, someone else is a consecrated harrier. as long as everyone gets the opportunity to be unique, we should all get to have fun. I understand that. What you have to understand is what I noted. A competition is defined by a comparison between two different people. By saying that an essential element of your character is defined by being unique, you have created a competition where none existed before. More, you are involving the campaign staff in it. Now you are holding them responsible to ensure that nobody copies your character. That's a bit much don't you think? And how is that to be given greater consideration than the desire of those people who create a competition to have the "best" character? (By whatever standards they insist on setting.) One of your competitions must be judged more worthy than the other? Yet another competition! And don't take this as passing judgement on the competition you have chosen. I am merely trying to point out that there are other considerations, and that it isn't easy trying to find a solution. I have my own method of "competing" in the game that I don't want anyone to "beat" me at. We all do. And indeed, any solution is going to leave people unsatisfied. I would prefer if most everything were declared restricted, and only a select list of 100 or so feats and spells and some prestige classes from outside of the core books were made available as core. That would very much simplify things for me as a DM when sitting at a table. Of course that leaves the people who want that unique combo out in the cold, alongside the people who want that super-power combo with stuff from latest book. But I'd be happy! Along with the half dozen or so others that have gotten to the same point I have. So no, I don't have a solution. All I have is some comments and hopefully the obvious conclusion that whatever you prefer, accept that someone else prefers something different. More, accept that there isn't anything wrong with what they prefer, just something different.
_m_ 01-08-07, 12:34 AM	Not kind of, it is one. I understand that. What you have to understand is what I noted. A competition is defined by a comparison between two different people. By saying that an essential element of your character is defined by being unique, you have created a competition where none existed before. More, you are involving the campaign staff in it. Now you are holding them responsible to ensure that nobody copies your character. That's a bit much don't you think? And how is that to be given greater consideration than the desire of those people who create a competition to have the "best" character? (By whatever standards they insist on setting.) One of your competitions must be judged more worthy than the other? Yet another competition! And don't take this as passing judgement on the competition you have chosen. I am merely trying to point out that there are other considerations, and that it isn't easy trying to find a solution. I have my own method of "competing" in the game that I don't want anyone to "beat" me at. We all do. And indeed, any solution is going to leave people unsatisfied. I would prefer if most everything were declared restricted, and only a select list of 100 or so feats and spells and some prestige classes from outside of the core books were made available as core. That would very much simplify things for me as a DM when sitting at a table. Of course that leaves the people who want that unique combo out in the cold, alongside the people who want that super-power combo with stuff from latest book. But I'd be happy! Along with the half dozen or so others that have gotten to the same point I have. So no, I don't have a solution. All I have is some comments and hopefully the obvious conclusion that whatever you prefer, accept that someone else prefers something different. More, accept that there isn't anything wrong with what they prefer, just something different. well said sam. /love. it's a good point of view to bring up. however... the guy we were specifically refering to is a bit of a tool (no names, dont worry), hence our opinion :D but yeah, i see where ur coming from.
budleiser 01-08-07, 09:03 AM	well said sam. /love. it's a good point of view to bring up. however... the guy we were specifically refering to is a bit of a tool (no names, dont worry), hence our opinion :D but yeah, i see where ur coming from. I resemble that remark!
clannagh 01-08-07, 05:01 PM	i like my shadowcaster too, but thats a null issue, because shadowcasters are a fair chunk of the way behind the curve however: i think its not just important, but absolutely vital, to have limited things. how could anyone ever feel unique if every other player had access to everything they had. i LIKE being able to say, i'm a shadowcaster, how cool am i, you can't be one. and then they say: in a nightsong enforcer, you can't be one. then we both say: how cool are we :D see, fun! if everyone said: we all could be exactly what you are, you are boring and not unique. not fun. limited access if its not impossible is a good thing btw .. speaking of rare but kewl things did i ever mention Carbuncle has legitimate AR access to a vorpal sword
catsclaw 01-08-07, 05:25 PM	i LIKE being able to say, i'm a shadowcaster, how cool am i, you can't be one. and then they say: in a nightsong enforcer, you can't be one. then we both say: how cool are we :DWhich is fine. But if you're trying to plan a build having things on the limited list makes it really difficult. My rogue/swashbuckler just made dervish, at 7th level. Had Dervish been on the limited list, I would have had the choice of either 1) buying a load of useless skills and feats (Perform Dance? Weapon Focus Scimitar?) in the *hope* I'd get access when I needed it or 2) giving up on my character concept. I've got a friend in the same situation, except his prestige class *is* limited, so he's stuck building his character and either lucks into access or ends up running around with a severely handicapped character. Note: I don't have any objection to requiring access to enter the class; just that there's nothing I can do as a player to help ensure I'll have access when I need it. You can't plan to play specific mods with a given character. You can't ensure you'll get a special mission when you request it. You're stuck.
clannagh 01-08-07, 05:34 PM	Which is fine. But if you're trying to plan a build having things on the limited list makes it really difficult. My rogue/swashbuckler just made dervish, at 7th level. Had Dervish been on the limited list, I would have had the choice of either 1) buying a load of useless skills and feats (Perform Dance? Weapon Focus Scimitar?) in the *hope* I'd get access when I needed it or 2) giving up on my character concept. I've got a friend in the same situation, except his prestige class *is* limited, so he's stuck building his character and either lucks into access or ends up running around with a severely handicapped character. Note: I don't have any objection to requiring access to enter the class; just that there's nothing I can do as a player to help ensure I'll have access when I need it. You can't plan to play specific mods with a given character. You can't ensure you'll get a special mission when you request it. You're stuck. I think this is one of the key points in LG. The campaign does NOT suit people who want to predesign builds to level 15 from day one. Sure having a vague idea where you are goign is essential with any PrC but LG is not a good campaign to try and prebuild characters in and that is actually one of its attractions. For example my elf ranger has gone to all the trouble of taking all the pre-requisites for OBI and pious templar but is now taking more ranger and beastmaster instead because a dire eagle animal companian flying mount just appeared one day .. that is LG. Another example is my level 2 spiked chain swashie heading for spellsword .. I would LIKE some Ruathan in the build but if i do not get access I have an alternative build that is almost as good .. I am not counting on the limited access. knowing LG something left of field will happen and even the spellsword will disappear.
catsclaw 01-08-07, 05:58 PM	... LG is not a good campaign to try and prebuild characters in and that is actually one of its attractions.Maybe that's an attraction for you, but it's a severe drawback for me. It means you can either build a cookie-cutter Half-Orc, Spiked Chain, Monkey Grip fighter (or a druid-with-monk-levels, or a Half-Elf-Marshall-motivate-Cha-Diplo-monster) and powergame the hell out of the mods, or you can only have at most a vague idea of where your character is going and constantly underperform for your APL. I have to say, I've sat down at tables with players who had a character that "took a little of X, and then Y, and was building towards Z but then A became available, so they took B and C instead". And those players were a lot happier with their characters than I was, because their characters were inevitably useless in the mid-to-higher levels. Bad in combat, bad in puzzles, bad in social situations. At least sometimes the character was entertaining. The more access there is in LG, the more variety of builds you'll see at the tables. That will naturally increase the number of builds available to powergamers, but I doubt it'll actually increase the *number* of powergamers.
_m_ 01-08-07, 09:22 PM	I think this is one of the key points in LG. The campaign does NOT suit people who want to predesign builds to level 15 from day one. Sure having a vague idea where you are goign is essential with any PrC but LG is not a good campaign to try and prebuild characters in and that is actually one of its attractions. i agree. one of the funnest (best word ever :D) aspects of lgh is the unknown. my wizard was meant to be a wizard fatespinner elemental savant instead he's been into wiz, geometer, warshaper, fatespinner, elemental savant, shadowcaster, master of shadow. culling levels happened occasionaly through familiar death, and 1 bit was playtested, but still, it never went anywhere near where i was aiming for it to go.
budleiser 01-08-07, 09:39 PM	So LG is for people who can't follow through with their goals??? That's your argument FOR limited classes, feats, and spells?
_m_ 01-08-07, 09:43 PM	So LG is for people who can't follow through with their goals??? That's your argument FOR limited classes, feats, and spells? huh? i rekon living greyhawk is fun because it's unpredictable, and i rekon limited things are fun because they help make characters unique from one another. pretty easy concept imo.
clannagh 01-08-07, 10:07 PM	well each to there own I suppose !! the world would be boring if we were all the same personally i get very bored with a predesigned character .. I have fun designing and optimising and posting PC's up on the D20 opt boards to see what people can do with them but its really boring for me to play a character that ignores all role play plot hooks item access etc to stick to a rigid predetermined build where I know exactly what its going to be level after level .. i have had these characters and they do not get played they are just dull secondly it may be different around your way but the locals here do not find optimised predesigned builds even slightly impressive .. its more "oh dear god .. yet another cheesed up radiant servant" or "christ ... just for once build a dwarf that doesnt have barbarian deep warden and shock trooper" or druid/MoMF or paladin/cavallier etc .. having a power build around here gets you criticism not applause my other adversion to these builds i s more a predjudice .. the few local predesigned power builders tend to play only to "show off" there builds and they usually do not want to investigate or roleplay .. nor are not tactically very good either relying on predtermined tactics or a good build to get them through .. this I will admit is predjudice but I cant help that :)
_m_ 01-08-07, 10:25 PM	well each to there own I suppose !! the world would be boring if we were all the same personally i get very bored with a predesigned character .. I have fun designing and optimising and posting PC's up on the D20 opt boards to see what people can do with them but its really boring for me to play a character that ignores all role play plot hooks item access etc to stick to a rigid predetermined build where I know exactly what its going to be level after level .. i have had these characters and they do not get played they are just dull secondly it may be different around your way but the locals here do not find optimised predesigned builds even slightly impressive .. its more "oh dear god .. yet another cheesed up radiant servant" or "christ ... just for once build a dwarf that doesnt have barbarian deep warden and shock trooper" or druid/MoMF or paladin/cavallier etc .. having a power build around here gets you criticism not applause my other adversion to these builds i s more a predjudice .. the few local predesigned power builders tend to play only to "show off" there builds and they usually do not want to investigate or roleplay .. nor are not tactically very good either relying on predtermined tactics or a good build to get them through .. this I will admit is predjudice but I cant help that :) the better power-builders in our area don't play powerbuilds, and the people who want power builds can't build them :D i spend more of my time helping other people tune their toons than building mine :D and me and clannagh like it that way *grin*
catsclaw 01-09-07, 10:32 AM	... i rekon limited things are fun because they help make characters unique from one another ...I really don't understand your argument. You're saying, the fewer choices people have, the more variety of characters get created. By that logic, we should put everything but human fighters on the restricted list. Then we'll really see some unique characters.
budleiser 01-09-07, 11:41 AM	I really don't understand your argument. You're saying, the fewer choices people have, the more variety of characters get created. By that logic, we should put everything but human fighters on the restricted list. Then we'll really see some unique characters. High Five.
awroe 01-09-07, 01:53 PM	What would be useful is if there were some method to make use of the access you receive when it wasn't in your original plan, without having lots of wasted skills/feats on a character. While a little bit is character defining, a lot can make a character a hinderance to the party. Possibilities that spring to mind are using the retraining / rebuilding options from the PHBII, or allowing access to be transferred between characters. That way only a few people will have access to the limited PrCs, but they can refit their character to suit this limited access. When I build characters, I like to plan them out so I can check that they're feasible at high level as well as low level. But I've rarely found that they actually end up the way they were planned - the things they encounter and the access they receive usually cause a rethink. But there is some limited class/feat access that is incredibly unlikely to be used because the prerequisites are unlikely to occur unless you know of them in advance. AW.
JamesMaissen 01-09-07, 01:54 PM	I understand your problem about the limited stuff. But you have to understand that not everyone can get everything. Prestige classes are called that for a reason. Prestige. That means that you have to be pretty high-faluten or gotten on someone's good side to learn the basics of the class. Honestly, in my home campaign, I plan on making all of my characters have to go to different places to level up. If they want to level up as a wizard, they have to spend some time in the academy learning how. If they want to become a ranger, they have to spend time out in nature, learning how to track and sneak around. Rogues have to do a bit of practicing on picking locks and bluffing their way out of something. And asking them to work for it is one thing. Telling them you have to find a teacher, but then not let them try to do so and instead require that they randomly find one is quite another. That's how the limited system works. It's not 'earned' it's randomly scattered. I also have quite a fundamental issue with a premise put forth here. In my mind having a 'special' character should NOT be about your build. Some of my most memorable characters in LG have nothing what so ever to do with their mechanical build. And why should someone feel 'threatened' because someone else could make the same build that they have anyway? Is that all there is to the character's identity??? Also, this edition of D&D is CERTAINLY about planning out a character. Those plans can change, but characters without a plan start suffering for their lack more often than not. Just stop by any character discussion board and you will find the myriad posts of such players dissatisfied with where their character randomly found themselves due to lack of vision. Now what is gained by letting a random group of people play class X? If it's broken then it shouldn't be allowed to ANYONE.. having just a few people with it makes it worse as it won't get sufficient notice. If it's not broken but instead would be fun then why say only a random group gets to have that fun? It seems that the proponents for this are saying that the benefit of limited things is that they like having something that other people cannot have. And in fact that is the appeal of it. That seems horrible to me. Am I missunderstanding it? -James
_m_ 01-09-07, 05:17 PM	I really don't understand your argument. You're saying, the fewer choices people have, the more variety of characters get created. By that logic, we should put everything but human fighters on the restricted list. Then we'll really see some unique characters. you KNOW thats not what i'm saying. stop being mean :weep: i was simply saying that if everyone had access to everything, then it wouldnt feel special to gain levels in a prc... because everyone had it. now imo, unique characters come from the rp'ing, not the build, and i also think that the limited system is less than perfect, but claiming that everyone should have access to everything everyone else has would ruin one of the coolest aspects of the game.
catsclaw 01-09-07, 05:27 PM	i was simply saying that if everyone had access to everything, then it wouldnt feel special to gain levels in a prc... because everyone had it.I'm not arguing that everyone should have access to everything -- but if my character absolutely needs access to something to make the concept work, I ought to be able to work to get access. If my Monk wants to become a Drunken Master, it just doesn't make sense that he couldn't do research or pay for divinations to figure out where a group of them are, and start hanging out in all the bars they frequent. As it is now, I have to pester a Triad member for a Special, hope they're willing and able to oblige, then have them write the mod. This is easier done in some regions than others.
_m_ 01-09-07, 05:36 PM	I'm not arguing that everyone should have access to everything -- but if my character absolutely needs access to something to make the concept work, I ought to be able to work to get access. If my Monk wants to become a Drunken Master, it just doesn't make sense that he couldn't do research or pay for divinations to figure out where a group of them are, and start hanging out in all the bars they frequent. As it is now, I have to pester a Triad member for a Special, hope they're willing and able to oblige, then have them write the mod. This is easier done in some regions than others. if you notice my above post, im AGREEING that there should be a better way to access to things your build needs access to! i was simply disagreeing to whoevers idea it was to make only 2 list, access and banned. that, imo, would be crap.
clannagh 01-09-07, 05:47 PM	The interesting thing is we have two different arguments against limited spells here with one group saying make the current limited spells restricted and the other apparently saying make them all core. The solutin for the make them all restricted people is simply play them as restricted for your characters and ignore any meta-org or AR access that comes up. if you like you can even have the DM cross them off your AR's. Of course other poeple may still access these feats but unless you are a module writer that has no effect on you whatsoever.
katrick 01-12-07, 04:03 PM	wait two-three weeks for the next LGCS!!(spell wise I expect a massive change ie SPc) most things that are LIMITED are because the Circle hasn't agreed on the rulings of that(class,spell, etc...)yes it's alot of books to read and investigate for some one already involved in being Triad(JOBS etc..)who incidently can't play LG Special Missions are the answer for this conundrum( if your triad does not reply try elsewhere) Roll with the floe and expect more Star-Metal (Green Star Adepts) expect more Mithrall and less Adamantine NPC Only is usualy reserved for Assassin/Blackguard stuff(Bad Guy Goodies, ie [Evil act] stuff If you truly want something then ask your Local Triad(They are open to Suggestion) hence Snow Sleds, War Wagons, Dinosaurs. Drunken Masters are not prolific in our region yet there is a Spec Miss, look and ask if they are limited to regional access And if that fails play your character like they were part of that Class\Meta-Org\whatever Or Pre-Build on Core Access stuff Believe me you'll be happy with that Radiant Brie Merchant in the Shadow Plane Every LGCS it changes Britt has already alluded to it just be patient and keep building IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME And if all else fails remember Murphy's Law you'll get that access with your secondary character or worse you could get access to a choice of ONE Feat from a list which has the Pre-Req also on the same list(their can only be one) And expect yet again bugger all on the show tonight for Sorcerors marty
Biota 01-12-07, 08:25 PM	99% of spells, feats, and prestige class access should be either core or banned. I have a hard time coming up a with reason to make something hard to get. How about the thrill of making it through an adventure and being rewarded for it with access to a new spell/feat/PrC? Or the idea that your decisions matter, and gaining favor with one faction may lead to disfavor with another and the accompanying access. The idea that decisions made in game affect future expansion opportunities makes those decisions matter. One of the things that makes RPGs fun (for me) is building up a character over time. Biota
budleiser 01-13-07, 12:27 AM	The Discussion on Limited and Access can be carried on topic here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=770730
Dragon9 01-13-07, 12:44 AM	Sorry, I disagree on it should be Core or Banned. Personally, I think MORE stuff should be limited. More prestige classes anyway. Meta-orgs should be the way to go for PrC access.