Tower Shield & cover [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tower Shield & cover [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mortepierre
03-22-06, 09:25 AM The last session I ran, a player whose PC was hiding behind a tower shield (strictly defensively, so as to get total cover) ran up to a specific adversary through the reach of several other enemies.

Normally, those enemies should have been able to hit him with AoO but since the description of total cover prohibits it, they couldn't.

I ruled that though they couldn't target his PC with AoO, they could still target his shield to try to sunder it (using their AoO to do so). The player didn't think they could. In the end, as the DM, I maintained my ruling but now I'm looking for something in the rules that could corroborate it (for the next time I run into this situation). So far, without success.

If anyone could help, I would be grateful.

EDIT: I am aware that targeted spells can work against somebody hiding behind a tower shield. I only want to find a rule allowing me to use AoO to sunder it.
Lomiat
03-22-06, 09:38 AM Doesn't Sunder target the weapon or item, anyway? The AoO and opposed attack rolls come in later, presuming that the opponent chooses not to have his/her item sundered and does something about it.

This is the downfall of never having a book on hand...

At any rate, if the Sunder attack targets an item and not a character, then how could anyone maintain that the shield grants cover to the shield?
kjenks
03-22-06, 10:03 AM You were right. Sunder can be used as an AoO. A character with a tower shield can't be targeted by AoOs, but his shield can. Check out the FAQ, page 37 of the latest version.
Mortepierre
03-22-06, 10:30 AM My deepest thanks kjenks (for your spell-list too btw). I knew I had seen that somewhere but I couldn't remember where.

Yay for the FAQ!
Namarus
03-22-06, 11:12 AM You were right. Sunder can be used as an AoO. A character with a tower shield can't be targeted by AoOs, but his shield can. Check out the FAQ, page 37 of the latest version.

One thing to note.

Sunder itself provokes unless the person has improved sunder.

So you would have to resolve the AoO the sunder is provking first, before the sunder attempt can be made.
Fwib
03-22-06, 11:17 AM One thing to note.

Sunder itself provokes unless the person has improved sunder.

So you would have to resolve the AoO the sunder is provking first, before the sunder attempt can be made.Nuh-uh!However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so.No attacks, no AoO.

[edit]It seems I was right, but for the wrong reason. the FAQ says:
Total cover prevents any attack against you. You can
use a tower shield to get total cover if you give up all your
attacks. What does “give up all your attacks” mean? Can
you move while getting total cover from the shield? Can
you cast a spell? Also, do you get total cover from all
directions or from just one side of your square? Will the
total cover from a tower shield negate spell effects? Will it
negate attacks of opportunity from movement or from
other actions such as spellcasting? Will it prevent charge
attacks against you? What about bull rush attacks? Can it
prevent grapple attacks or snatch attacks? Will it stop fear
effects, gaze attacks, or clouds of poison gas? Will it defeat
traps?
To claim total cover from a tower shield, you must use a
standard action. The tower shield rules don’t say that, but that’s
what they mean. Since you can take only one standard action
each round, you cannot also attack, cast a spell, activate a
magic item (except for some use-activated items), use a special
ability, use total defense, or start or complete a full-round
action during the same round you claim total cover from the
shield. You can, however, take a move action before or after
you claim cover from the shield.
Like other kinds of cover, the shield has to have a location
relative to you on the battlefield. When you use the shield for
cover, choose one edge of your space (not a corner). You have
total cover against any attack’s line of effect that passes
through that side of your space. If an attack’s line of effect goes
through the corner of the side of your space that the shield
blocks, you get cover from the shield (+4 AC, +2 on Reflex
saves) instead of total cover. If an attack’s line of effect passes
through a side of your space that the shield does not block, you
get no cover from the shield at all. To determine where the line
of effect enters your space, draw a line from the attacker’s
center to your center. Or, in the case of a magical effect, from
the effect’s point of origin and your center.
Once you claim cover from the shield, the shield keeps
blocking the side of your space that you chose until the
beginning of your next turn, when you can again decide
whether you’ll use the shield for cover. Once you choose the
side of your space that the shield blocks, you cannot change it
until your next turn.
You continue to threaten the area around you while you use
the shield for cover; however, it provides your opponents with
the same benefits you get. You cannot make attacks through the
side of your space that the shield blocks, and should you attack
through the corners of that space, your foe gets cover against
your attack. Since cover of any kind prevents attacks of
opportunity (see page 151 in the Player’s Handbook), the
shield keeps you from making attacks of opportunity in a pretty
wide swath.
Total cover or cover from a tower shield has the following
effects in different situations:
• Magical Attacks: A tower shield’s effects on
magical attacks depend on the kind of magical attack.
Any attack aimed at your equipment is aimed at you.
If a magical attack has you as a specific target (that is
it does not merely affect the area that contains you
but is aimed right at you), the shield has no effect. All
rays fall into this category, as does any spell that has
a Target entry in its header and any spell that has an
Effect entry and affects creatures (provided, of
course, that the attacker can and does choose the
shield user as a target). Magical attacks that fill areas
(bursts, cones, cylinders, lines, emanations, and
spreads) are subject to all the rules for cover on page
151 of the Player’s Handbook. Such attacks are
completely blocked if line of effect between you and
the attack’s point of origin passes through the side of
your space the shield blocks. You get cover (+4 AC,
+2 on Reflex saves) if the magical attack’s line of
effect passes through the corner of the blocked side.
Spread effects reach around the shield if they
normally would extend into your space, but you still
get a Reflex save bonus for cover when they do. A
gaze attack is blocked if the shield would give you
total cover against attacks from the creature with the
gaze attack. If the shield gives you cover only, you’re
still subject to the gaze attack (although you could
avert or close your eyes to avoid the attack).
• Attacks of Opportunity: As noted earlier, cover or
total cover prevents attacks of opportunity. So you
could, for example, hunker down behind a tower
shield and pick up a weapon or rummage around in a
backpack and avoid attacks of opportunity against
you. If you’re moving while using the shield for
cover, things get a little more complicated. You must
determine whether the shield gives you cover (or
total cover) at the point during your movement when
you’d normally provoke an attack of opportunity.
Remember that attacks of opportunity are usually
resolved before the actions that provoke them. In
many cases, the shield won’t be positioned correctly
to protect you during your whole move.
• Charging and Bull Rushing: Opponents can charge
you while you claim cover from the shield. An
opponent moves as normal when charging you,
moving to the closest square from which a melee
attack normally would be possible. If the shield gives
you total cover from the attack, the attack
automatically fails. Foes can bull rush you normally,
moving right into your space in spite of the shield.
You normally get an attack of opportunity against
someone entering your space, but not if the shield
gives your foe cover or total cover.
• Grapple and Snatch Attacks: Total cover from a
tower shield blocks such attacks (the foe just can’t
get hold of you). The foe could, however grab the
shield. Conduct such attacks just like any other
grapple or snatch attack. Your foe can’t damage you
unless he pins you first. You can escape the foe’s
hold simply by dropping the shield (a standard action
since it’s strapped to your arm), so long as the foe has
not pinned you.
• Traps: Cover or total cover from a tower shield is
just as effective against a trap as it is against any
other attack.So if you have cover from them, they have cover from you and you can't AoO them for their sunder attempt.
Arvagor
03-22-06, 11:19 AM You were right. Sunder can be used as an AoO. A character with a tower shield can't be targeted by AoOs, but his shield can. Check out the FAQ, page 37 of the latest version.
He could still be targetted by AoOs... The FAQ also clarifies that the bearer of the tower shield must specify which side of his space he is claiming cover (page 38). If the PC moves in such a way that he exits a threatened square, and the shield was not providing cover in that direction, then the attacker could still make an AoO.

To illustrate:┌─┬─┬─┬─┐
│ │A│C│ │
├─┼─┼─┼─┤
│B│X│ │D│
└─┴─┴─┴─┘X is our intrepid PC, (somewhat) surrounded by enemies. For whatever reason, X wants to protect himself from attacks coming from D, so X claims cover from the tower shield on that side of his square (reflected by that side being red). If X wants to move forward (i.e., towards D), he still may suffer AoOs from A and B, as both of those squares threaten X's space, and neither of their attacks would have to pass through the side of X's square that is blocked by the tower shield. C, however, is prevented from making AoOs against X, because C's attacks must pass through a corner that is "connected" to the tower shield.

If X had instead claimed cover on his "top" side" (i.e., initially on the side between X and A), then X moving towards D would only provoke from B.

In essence, the FAQ is saying that of the 8 squares that surround you (presuming you are medium sized), a tower shield can only protect against attacks/AoOs from 3 of those squares (which all must be adjacent)
Mortepierre
03-22-06, 11:51 AM Note that the FAQ indicates the bearer of the shield can make AoO. At first, it surprised me because I was thinking the same thing as Fwib, and then I realized that the "no attack" is because using the shield for total cover takes up your standard action for the round. But that doesn't prevent you from making an AoO, so that's allowed.

EDIT: I wish the FAQ would also make it clear whether or not the "sunder" can be attempted. Logic tells me even if the tower shield gives you cover and thus denies you an AoO, you should be able to use that AoO to attack the shield directly instead of the shield's bearer.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mortepierre 03-22-06, 09:25 AM	The last session I ran, a player whose PC was hiding behind a tower shield (strictly defensively, so as to get total cover) ran up to a specific adversary through the reach of several other enemies. Normally, those enemies should have been able to hit him with AoO but since the description of total cover prohibits it, they couldn't. I ruled that though they couldn't target his PC with AoO, they could still target his shield to try to sunder it (using their AoO to do so). The player didn't think they could. In the end, as the DM, I maintained my ruling but now I'm looking for something in the rules that could corroborate it (for the next time I run into this situation). So far, without success. If anyone could help, I would be grateful. EDIT: I am aware that targeted spells can work against somebody hiding behind a tower shield. I only want to find a rule allowing me to use AoO to sunder it.
Lomiat 03-22-06, 09:38 AM	Doesn't Sunder target the weapon or item, anyway? The AoO and opposed attack rolls come in later, presuming that the opponent chooses not to have his/her item sundered and does something about it. This is the downfall of never having a book on hand... At any rate, if the Sunder attack targets an item and not a character, then how could anyone maintain that the shield grants cover to the shield?
kjenks 03-22-06, 10:03 AM	You were right. Sunder can be used as an AoO. A character with a tower shield can't be targeted by AoOs, but his shield can. Check out the FAQ, page 37 of the latest version.
Mortepierre 03-22-06, 10:30 AM	My deepest thanks kjenks (for your spell-list too btw). I knew I had seen that somewhere but I couldn't remember where. Yay for the FAQ!
Namarus 03-22-06, 11:12 AM	You were right. Sunder can be used as an AoO. A character with a tower shield can't be targeted by AoOs, but his shield can. Check out the FAQ, page 37 of the latest version. One thing to note. Sunder itself provokes unless the person has improved sunder. So you would have to resolve the AoO the sunder is provking first, before the sunder attempt can be made.
Fwib 03-22-06, 11:17 AM	One thing to note. Sunder itself provokes unless the person has improved sunder. So you would have to resolve the AoO the sunder is provking first, before the sunder attempt can be made.Nuh-uh!However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so.No attacks, no AoO. [edit]It seems I was right, but for the wrong reason. the FAQ says: Total cover prevents any attack against you. You can use a tower shield to get total cover if you give up all your attacks. What does “give up all your attacks” mean? Can you move while getting total cover from the shield? Can you cast a spell? Also, do you get total cover from all directions or from just one side of your square? Will the total cover from a tower shield negate spell effects? Will it negate attacks of opportunity from movement or from other actions such as spellcasting? Will it prevent charge attacks against you? What about bull rush attacks? Can it prevent grapple attacks or snatch attacks? Will it stop fear effects, gaze attacks, or clouds of poison gas? Will it defeat traps? To claim total cover from a tower shield, you must use a standard action. The tower shield rules don’t say that, but that’s what they mean. Since you can take only one standard action each round, you cannot also attack, cast a spell, activate a magic item (except for some use-activated items), use a special ability, use total defense, or start or complete a full-round action during the same round you claim total cover from the shield. You can, however, take a move action before or after you claim cover from the shield. Like other kinds of cover, the shield has to have a location relative to you on the battlefield. When you use the shield for cover, choose one edge of your space (not a corner). You have total cover against any attack’s line of effect that passes through that side of your space. If an attack’s line of effect goes through the corner of the side of your space that the shield blocks, you get cover from the shield (+4 AC, +2 on Reflex saves) instead of total cover. If an attack’s line of effect passes through a side of your space that the shield does not block, you get no cover from the shield at all. To determine where the line of effect enters your space, draw a line from the attacker’s center to your center. Or, in the case of a magical effect, from the effect’s point of origin and your center. Once you claim cover from the shield, the shield keeps blocking the side of your space that you chose until the beginning of your next turn, when you can again decide whether you’ll use the shield for cover. Once you choose the side of your space that the shield blocks, you cannot change it until your next turn. You continue to threaten the area around you while you use the shield for cover; however, it provides your opponents with the same benefits you get. You cannot make attacks through the side of your space that the shield blocks, and should you attack through the corners of that space, your foe gets cover against your attack. Since cover of any kind prevents attacks of opportunity (see page 151 in the Player’s Handbook), the shield keeps you from making attacks of opportunity in a pretty wide swath. Total cover or cover from a tower shield has the following effects in different situations: • Magical Attacks: A tower shield’s effects on magical attacks depend on the kind of magical attack. Any attack aimed at your equipment is aimed at you. If a magical attack has you as a specific target (that is it does not merely affect the area that contains you but is aimed right at you), the shield has no effect. All rays fall into this category, as does any spell that has a Target entry in its header and any spell that has an Effect entry and affects creatures (provided, of course, that the attacker can and does choose the shield user as a target). Magical attacks that fill areas (bursts, cones, cylinders, lines, emanations, and spreads) are subject to all the rules for cover on page 151 of the Player’s Handbook. Such attacks are completely blocked if line of effect between you and the attack’s point of origin passes through the side of your space the shield blocks. You get cover (+4 AC, +2 on Reflex saves) if the magical attack’s line of effect passes through the corner of the blocked side. Spread effects reach around the shield if they normally would extend into your space, but you still get a Reflex save bonus for cover when they do. A gaze attack is blocked if the shield would give you total cover against attacks from the creature with the gaze attack. If the shield gives you cover only, you’re still subject to the gaze attack (although you could avert or close your eyes to avoid the attack). • Attacks of Opportunity: As noted earlier, cover or total cover prevents attacks of opportunity. So you could, for example, hunker down behind a tower shield and pick up a weapon or rummage around in a backpack and avoid attacks of opportunity against you. If you’re moving while using the shield for cover, things get a little more complicated. You must determine whether the shield gives you cover (or total cover) at the point during your movement when you’d normally provoke an attack of opportunity. Remember that attacks of opportunity are usually resolved before the actions that provoke them. In many cases, the shield won’t be positioned correctly to protect you during your whole move. • Charging and Bull Rushing: Opponents can charge you while you claim cover from the shield. An opponent moves as normal when charging you, moving to the closest square from which a melee attack normally would be possible. If the shield gives you total cover from the attack, the attack automatically fails. Foes can bull rush you normally, moving right into your space in spite of the shield. You normally get an attack of opportunity against someone entering your space, but not if the shield gives your foe cover or total cover. • Grapple and Snatch Attacks: Total cover from a tower shield blocks such attacks (the foe just can’t get hold of you). The foe could, however grab the shield. Conduct such attacks just like any other grapple or snatch attack. Your foe can’t damage you unless he pins you first. You can escape the foe’s hold simply by dropping the shield (a standard action since it’s strapped to your arm), so long as the foe has not pinned you. • Traps: Cover or total cover from a tower shield is just as effective against a trap as it is against any other attack.So if you have cover from them, they have cover from you and you can't AoO them for their sunder attempt.
Arvagor 03-22-06, 11:19 AM	You were right. Sunder can be used as an AoO. A character with a tower shield can't be targeted by AoOs, but his shield can. Check out the FAQ, page 37 of the latest version. He could still be targetted by AoOs... The FAQ also clarifies that the bearer of the tower shield must specify which side of his space he is claiming cover (page 38). If the PC moves in such a way that he exits a threatened square, and the shield was not providing cover in that direction, then the attacker could still make an AoO. To illustrate:┌─┬─┬─┬─┐ │ │A│C│ │ ├─┼─┼─┼─┤ │B│X│ │D│ └─┴─┴─┴─┘X is our intrepid PC, (somewhat) surrounded by enemies. For whatever reason, X wants to protect himself from attacks coming from D, so X claims cover from the tower shield on that side of his square (reflected by that side being red). If X wants to move forward (i.e., towards D), he still may suffer AoOs from A and B, as both of those squares threaten X's space, and neither of their attacks would have to pass through the side of X's square that is blocked by the tower shield. C, however, is prevented from making AoOs against X, because C's attacks must pass through a corner that is "connected" to the tower shield. If X had instead claimed cover on his "top" side" (i.e., initially on the side between X and A), then X moving towards D would only provoke from B. In essence, the FAQ is saying that of the 8 squares that surround you (presuming you are medium sized), a tower shield can only protect against attacks/AoOs from 3 of those squares (which all must be adjacent)
Mortepierre 03-22-06, 11:51 AM	Note that the FAQ indicates the bearer of the shield can make AoO. At first, it surprised me because I was thinking the same thing as Fwib, and then I realized that the "no attack" is because using the shield for total cover takes up your standard action for the round. But that doesn't prevent you from making an AoO, so that's allowed. EDIT: I wish the FAQ would also make it clear whether or not the "sunder" can be attempted. Logic tells me even if the tower shield gives you cover and thus denies you an AoO, you should be able to use that AoO to attack the shield directly instead of the shield's bearer.