| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Swiftbrook02-02-06, 05:04 PM | Training Animals: Issue #1: Attack Trick and Trip When you buy an animal, you may pick an extra trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. You must pick the tricks from page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. For the riding dog, you may either pick two extra tricks or use these two trick slots to make the dog trained to use a trip attack (as specified in the riding dog entry in the Monster Manual v.3.5). Animals gained that start play with more than the standard training must be supported with campaign or regional documentation. This is not quite clear. Does this mean that it not trained to attack? Or is the trip in addition to attack? Add a few words (in blue) to clear things up: When you buy an animal, you may pick an extra trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. You must pick the tricks from page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. For the riding dog, you may either pick two extra tricks or use these two trick slots to make the dog trained to attack all creatures and use a trip attack (as specified in the riding dog entry in the Monster Manual v.3.5). Animals gained that start play with more than the standard training must be supported with campaign or regional documentation. -Swiftbrook |
| MaxDog02-02-06, 06:33 PM | Training Animals: Issue #1: Attack Trick and Trip This is not quite clear. Does this mean that it not trained to attack? Or is the trip in addition to attack? Add a few words (in blue) to clear things up: When you buy an animal, you may pick an extra trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. You must pick the tricks from page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. For the riding dog, you may either pick two extra tricks or use these two trick slots to make the dog trained to attack all creatures and use a trip attack (as specified in the riding dog entry in the Monster Manual v.3.5). Animals gained that start play with more than the standard training must be supported with campaign or regional documentation. -Swiftbrook I agree with you that this needs to be cleared up. However, I disagree with your interpretation; the wording in the draft LGCS seems to indicate that when you buy a riding dog it comes with the attack trick and either: 1) a trip attack and three unused trick slots or; 2) two other tricks of your choosing and three unused trick slots. To get the dog to attack unnatural creatures, you would have to either sacrifice the trip attack or train it yourself later. Another point that could be made more clear: can a riding dog COMPANION gain the trip attack by using up two trick slots? LEHaskell |
| Howie2302-02-06, 06:43 PM | Training Animals: Issue #1: Attack Trick and Trip This is not quite clear. Does this mean that it not trained to attack? Or is the trip in addition to attack? Riding Dog (like all domesticated animals) are purchased already knowing three tricks. One of those is Attack. You can either get it with two other tricks, or use the two trick slots to train it to trip. The old language in 4.2 allowed you to train it to a purpose (a three trick purpose), and then used that as the basis to allow trip. Add a few words (in blue) to clear things up: When you buy an animal, you may pick an extra trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. You must pick the tricks from page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. For the riding dog, you may either pick two extra tricks or use these two trick slots to make the dog trained to attack all creatures and use a trip attack (as specified in the riding dog entry in the Monster Manual v.3.5). Animals gained that start play with more than the standard training must be supported with campaign or regional documentation. -Swiftbrook I think attack all creatures is problematic as it suggests that the riding dog is now trained to attack unnatural creatures, which requires additional training. David |
| Swiftbrook02-02-06, 06:48 PM | I agree with you that this needs to be cleared up. However, I disagree with your interpretation; the wording in the draft LGCS seems to indicate that when you buy a riding dog it comes with the attack trick and either: 1) a trip attack and three unused trick slots or; 2) two other tricks of your choosing and three unused trick slots. To get the dog to attack unnatural creatures, you would have to either sacrifice the trip attack or train it yourself later. Another point that could be made more clear: can a riding dog COMPANION gain the trip attack by using up two trick slots? LEHaskell The rules for a companion are completely different. A you can fill all a companions trick slots plus any bonus tricks. As for the rules, I'm reading them for what they say, not what I think they say. The rules say that the riding dog comes with two trick of your choice, not attack and two tricks. If that's what they mean, then they have more work to do on the wording. -Swiftbrook |
| Howie2302-02-06, 07:32 PM | As for the rules, I'm reading them for what they say, not what I think they say. The rules say that the riding dog comes with two trick of your choice, not attack and two tricks. If that's what they mean, then they have more work to do on the wording. -Swiftbrook The previous paragraph says they come with attack. The paragraph you have quoted then says they get an extra (in addition to the attack trick specified in the prior paragraph) trick for each point of Int (two more tricks). It then goes on to say that those two extra tricks can be used for trip instead of, say, fetch and come. The paragraph in question is clear when read in the context of the prior paragraph, IMO. David |
| Mad Monkey02-02-06, 07:51 PM | The rules for a companion are completely different. A you can fill all a companions trick slots plus any bonus tricks. They are different, but the question remains. Can you have a riding dog animal companion have the trip ability? If you can't train it yourself, can you buy a riding dog with the trip ability and make that your animal companion? |
| Howie2302-03-06, 03:36 PM | Training Animals: Issue #1: Attack Trick and Trip This is not quite clear. Does this mean that it not trained to attack? Or is the trip in addition to attack? -Swiftbrook Several people have expressed confusion about this language. It seems to stem out of context from the prior paragraph and the math implied by the word "extra." How about this as a rewrite of the paragraph in question, which includes a transitional clause that ties it to the prior paragraph, and a substitute for the word "extra": When you buy an animal, with or without the attack trick, you may pick an additional trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. You must pick the tricks from page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. For the riding dog, you may either pick these two additional tricks or use these two trick slots to make the dog trained to use a trip attack (as specified in the riding dog entry in the Monster Manual v.3.5). This standard training will generally result in the animal having fewer tricks than the permitted maximum, which is determined by its intelligence. Animals gained that start play with more than the standard training must be supported with campaign or regional documentation. |
| Swiftbrook02-03-06, 03:37 PM | I think attack all creatures is problematic as it suggests that the riding dog is now trained to attack unnatural creatures, which requires additional training. I think that is exactly what is needed. Otherwise you are saying that the Trip attack, in and of itself, is worth two (2) trick slots. I can't find any support for this interpretation in the rules. Note: I did miss the 'attack' reference in the paragraph previous to my quote. A trained Riding Dog's tricks, as you suggest, are built as follows: (1) Attack (2) Trip (3) Trip (4) open (5) open (6) open A reasonable interpretation of the "Trained for War" reference in the Monster Manual would be that the Riding Dog has been trained for a purpose: Fighting. This build is as follows: (1) Attack (2) Down (3) Stay (free) Trip (4) open (5) open (6) open My suggestion, which I believe is reasonable and clear, produces the following build: (1) Attack (2) Attack: All creatures (3) Trip (4) open (5) open (6) open Understand, that requiring a trick "slot" for the Trip attack is going to require a mechanism for rebuilding purchased domesticated animals. My ranger spent time (in the form of TUs) to fully train my Riding Dog (non-animal companion). My dog has been tripping the enemy from his first mod. All of his trick slots are used and none of them are "Trip". Again, I find no documentation requiring the Trip attack to take two trick slots. I can't even find that it should take one, but that does seam reasonable. -Swiftbrook |
| Swiftbrook02-03-06, 06:24 PM | Another issue has come up that should be addressed in this same section. That is, a domesticated animal and/or an animal companion being trained for war in regards to wearing barding. Without some clarification, a warhorse cannot wear barding because there is no wording for "trained for war". I propose the following changes: Domesticated Animals: Most animals you can buy and adventure with are trained to some extent. These animals include those listed on Table 7-8 of the Player’s Handbook v.3.5. The Handle Animal skill can be used to further train these animals. Almost all of these animals (except donkeys and mules) can perform the basic attack trick, detailed on page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. You must be riding a horse or a pony in order for it to follow the attack command. Commanding an animal to perform a trick is a move action and pushing an animal is a full-round action (see Handle Animal for more details). A druid or ranger can command an animal companion to perform a trick as a free action and push it as a standard action. When you buy an animal, you may pick an extra trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. You must pick the tricks from page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. A warhorse may be trained for war as defined in the Monster Manual. This requires one trick slot in addition to the attack trick all animals begin with. For the riding dog, you may either pick two extra tricks or use these two trick slots to make the dog trained for war. A riding dog trained for war may attack all creatures, wear barding and use a trip attack (as specified in the riding dog entry in the Monster Manual v.3.5). Animals gained that start play with more than the standard training must be supported with campaign or regional documentation. Most importantly, what trained for war is must be spelled out. How to train an animal for war must be spelled out. Finally, if this is spelled out, it also takes care of the issue of whether a druid's/ranger's animal companion can wear barding. -Swiftbrook |
| blood_kite02-03-06, 06:56 PM | While I like what Swiftbrook has written for clarifying text, I think it would set a precident only slightly less worse than what the draft is trying to set. Spending a trick to become 'trained for war' ensures that no warhorse or riding dog will ever have both the Combat Riding Purpose from the Handle Animal skill description and be 'trained for war'. Making you spend your two 'free training' tricks to get your dog to trip ensures that you can't control it once you command it to attack someone unless you spend time attempting to teach it more tricks. Wouldn't it be easy to say that if an animal has the tricks that the Fighting or Combat Riding Purposes teach then the animal is 'trained for war'? |
| Howie2302-03-06, 07:51 PM | Making you spend your two 'free training' tricks to get your dog to trip ensures that you can't control it once you command it to attack someone unless you spend time attempting to teach it more tricks. I don't mind the idea of animals requiring some TUs to make them usable. It puts them in the hands of those that specialize in them, makes them less likely to be used merely as mere meat shields, and tends to put more of a focus on the PCs. Wouldn't it be easy to say that if an animal has the tricks that the Fighting or Combat Riding Purposes teach then the animal is 'trained for war'? If (big if) 'trained for war' is going to be defined, then I think this is the appropriate way to do it, with the specification that having the feats that make up the purpose trains them for the purpose. This last point is needed because currently there is no way to train for a purpose in LG; while training for a purpose trains for certain tricks, it is not clear that the reverse is true. The two benefits to 'trained for war' are riding dog trips and armor proficiency. Riding dog trips are handled by the two slot rule. That leaves armor proficiency for animals. I think it is important to point out that armor proficiency is not needed to wear barding. Lack of proficiency results in a penalty to hit equal to the AC penalty. Armor proficiency can currently be gained for animal companions via the feat Armor Proficiency (Light). Currently, anyone wanting heavy armor for their warhorse is forced to decide between letting the horse still attack effectively or keeping it alive. The desire for armor proficiency is oriented toward wanting a more capable mount. However, barding is also stated as being wearable for short periods of time only, requiring extra care, animal cannot carry additional load, usally requires a riding horse, etc. By avoiding the proficiency in for armor, there is a tendency to avoid it being misused (horse wears armor 24-hours/day). There is a balance issue here. There is also the access to large armor issue for barding, but I think that needs to stay in a different thread to keep Circle sane :) David |
| bertman402-03-06, 08:57 PM | I'm just going to chime in that the rules as currently presented in the LGCS do need clarification. Bertman |
| Swiftbrook02-03-06, 08:59 PM | Wouldn't it be easy to say that if an animal has the tricks that the Fighting or Combat Riding Purposes teach then the animal is 'trained for war'? Actually yes. But that's too easy. It makes sense. It's the closest thing to the rules as written. It's how every DM I've played with has interpreted the rule (as far as it's come up). And it shouldn't involve any hard feeling about taking away something my dog has had for years, or the need to 'rebuild' the tricks I have taught my dog. I don't mind the idea of animals requiring some TUs to make them usable. It puts them in the hands of those that specialize in them, makes them less likely to be used merely as mere meat shields, and tends to put more of a focus on the PCs. This is true for purchased animals, but not for animal companions. A druid or ranger, by rule, has a 'meat shield'. Each and every adventure, without any TU costs, a druid or ranger may have a bran new animal companion, with all it trick slots filled plus it's bonus trick. Again, all this at no cost in TU. But that's another discussion (see separate thread). Animal companions really have no bearing on domesticated animals. Again, the easiest way to go is to say that if an animal has been trained for the purpose of Fighting or for the purpose of Combat Riding then they are considered trained for war as defined by the monster manual. Note: PHB p. 75 "Combat Riding: (snip) ... Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don't require additional training for this purpose." I guess, after reading all the comments and considering all the options and problems, what I would like is this: Buy a war horse, it's trained for the purpose of Combat Riding and is trained for war as defined by the MM. Buy a riding dog (as a mount), it's trained for the purpose of Combat Riding and is trained for war as defined by the MM. Buy a riding dog (as a war dog), it's trained for the purpose of Fighting and is trained for war as defined by the MM. Buy a riding dog (as something else), it's trained to attack and you have two free tricks. Buy a guard dog, (it's a Dog as described in the MM), it's has the Attack trick and two free tricks. Now how to word that in the LGCS so it all makes sense. I don't know. -Swiftbrook |
| chrispedersen02-03-06, 09:32 PM | Its in 5.0 of the LGCS C |
| chrispedersen02-04-06, 12:16 AM | War dogs, and warhorses are 'trained for war'. There cost in the phb is clearly much higher. Compared to the cost of a commoner training, the cost clearly must include both a training element and a breeding element - the biggest, smartest, alphamost. Since the tricks are very carefully enumerated in many places, and nowhere include wartraining.. I would suppose the following: Trained for war is what you get when you buy a WAR dog, and a WARhorse And it includes all the things previously mentioned - ability to wear barding etc. And, its never reproducible by trick training, aka attack, guard etc. Training to wear barding, to move with a rider - well it makes sense that these would be things that people learned and developed - training a horse to war was a very specialized skill that could take up to two years. It entirely reasonable (although not popular here) that those that respect the wild would not seek to domesticate there animals that way (impose human training). And it does somewhat address the issue that many animal companions make as great or greater contribution to a table as many fighters. After that it becomes very easy. Follow the trick guidelines. Max tricks = as outlined in the php, and no free extras. All tricks count against the total. All that beings said... it would sure be nice if the rules were spelled out, even if LG just made a ruling that was later corrected by Wotc. C |