TWF and Flurry of Blows [Archive] - Wizards Community

TWF and Flurry of Blows [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GreatSiron
09-01-06, 05:21 PM How would the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat and the monk's Flurry of Blows interact? I know TWF lowers the penatly for fighting with both hands, and Flurry of Blows gives you an extra attack, abbet at -2 penanty. But can you do both at the same time, like making 2 attacks with one hand, then one with the other? How would that work?

I guess the question is: Does a monk using TWF with Flurry of Blows get 3 attacks, or just 2?
Nerax
09-01-06, 07:27 PM You gain one extra attack (for a total of three) with your "off hand weapon." But it is a -4 to all of your attacks. Flurry penalty (-2) stacked with TWF w/light off hand weapon penalty(-2).
GreatSiron
09-02-06, 12:35 AM That's all I needed to know. Thanks. Now I can begin work on my halfling monk.
Halworth
09-08-06, 12:24 AM Okay I can dig that.

But what about this.

When in a grapple you can make as many opposed grapple checks as attacks you have. So if my monk get 2 attacks for flurry and one more for Two weapon fighting do the negatives apply or not ? Do I get 3 opposed grapple checks with NO penalties? grapple check = BAB + Strength + size Bonus, right?
JamesMaissen
09-08-06, 09:05 AM Okay I can dig that.

But what about this.

When in a grapple you can make as many opposed grapple checks as attacks you have. So if my monk get 2 attacks for flurry and one more for Two weapon fighting do the negatives apply or not ? Do I get 3 opposed grapple checks with NO penalties? grapple check = BAB + Strength + size Bonus, right?

First the premise is wrong. When in a grapple you can make grapple checks based on your BAB, not number of attacks.

Second you cannot TWF in a grapple explicitly.

-James
Halworth
09-10-06, 02:35 AM First the premise is wrong. When in a grapple you can make grapple checks based on your BAB, not number of attacks.

Second you cannot TWF in a grapple explicitly.

-James

Can you point me to a book/source and page number on that?

I looked but all I found was the FAQ which states MONSTERS attacks are restricted by BAB. Is there something else you are basing this statement on, or is that it?

Thanks:D
GorTeX
09-10-06, 03:21 PM I don't see any problem with Flurrying in a grapple, but TWF is explicitly disallowed. Espcially if you attack your opponent (tho this would be at -6!)...if you choose to damage your opponent and flurry, I'd think the grapple check would be at -2

If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
...
Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
..
Damage Your Opponent
While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.
Halworth
09-10-06, 06:52 PM IF multiple grapple checks should be based on the NUMBER of attacks granted by BAB only, and not other things like Haste, TWF then you would not be able to make multiple grapple checks against your opponet based on the numer of flurry attacks.

At first level a monk has one attack because of BAB.
However with flurry he has two attacks.

In a grapple this monk could damage his opponet twice with opposed grapple checks(not attacks), because of the 2 attacks from the flurry.

Flurry is NOT BAB. It is a class ability.

I would propose if that monk is hasted and gains another attack, he would be gain one more opposed grapple check. Basically if it can work for flurry(non-BAB attack) it can work for other things that provide additional attacks.(Haste, TWF, etc)

Sure it says you cannot ATTACK with two weapons, grapple checks are NOT attacks. But as near as I can tell number of grapple checks = Number attacks as a full round action. (Haste, Flurry, TWF included)

Just my humble opinion.

Thank you for the discourse it really helped flush out the idea.
Iswald
09-10-06, 10:24 PM Grapple checks, while like attack rolls, are not actually attack rolls. This is why you can't TWF or flurry to gain more grapple checks. Although, there is something in the FAQ that lets you start grapple checks when doing a flurry, it doesn't explain what happens when you succeed at grappling in the middle of a flurry.
GrahamWills
09-11-06, 11:17 PM Grapple checks, while like attack rolls, are not actually attack rolls. This is why you can't TWF or flurry to gain more grapple checks. Although, there is something in the FAQ that lets you start grapple checks when doing a flurry, it doesn't explain what happens when you succeed at grappling in the middle of a flurry.

You need to read the rules a tad more carefully. It specifically says that Grapple checks to do damage are made in place of an attack. As such, they replace any attack. Therefore you can flurry in a grapple. The only reason you cannot TWF in a grapple is that the rules specifically say you cannot.

By the rules, since grapple checks are not attack rolls, they are not affected by anything affecting attacks. So bless, prayer, weapon focus, etc. None of them will help you. On the other hand the grapple check uses your BAB, not your actual attack bonus, so flurrying does not hurt you.

So if you flurry and make a touch attack with your first flurry, you are left with one attack, which you can replace with a grapple check. You could also replace it with a trip attack, disarm or anything else which is used instead of an attack.

Another way to think of it is as similar to trip -- a flurry of grapples is similar to a flurry of trips, except that if you touch with the first you have established a grapple and have no need to touch again.

If this rule was not the case, consider the sitution of a monk who grapples successfully with the first flurry. His best bet is to release the target as a free action and then touch and damage him again. That's plain silly, as it basically says you undo and redo the touch for no good reason.

If you want a really hard one, riddle this one -- suppose X is grappling Y and Z makes a trip attack on X. What happens? Who falls down? Who opposes it? Do you get a stability bonus for having four legs?
GorTeX
09-12-06, 03:57 PM I have no problem flurring to do damage in a grapple...but the grapple check should be at an additional -2.

but apparently the FAQ doesn't agree with meFAQ notes:
()monks can flurry and make grapple checks
()Grapple check isn't an attack roll (no Combat expertise or Power attacks)
()Exalted strike bonus does not apply to grapple checks.
()no crits on a grapple check
()no auto succeed or fail on grapple checks

Note that you can't release someone from a grapple as a free action...it takes a grapple check to get out of a grapple (whether you started the grapple or not)
Halworth
09-13-06, 02:46 AM The only reason you cannot TWF in a grapple is that the rules specifically say you cannot.

I assume you are referring to the PHB p.156

it says "You can’t ATTACK with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons"

Once again these are NOT attacks, they are grapple checks.
-Grapple checks are based on the the total number of attacks available to you as a full round action including TWF, Haste, Flurry.

If you want a really hard one, riddle this one -- suppose X is grappling Y and Z makes a trip attack on X. What happens? Who falls down? Who opposes it? Do you get a stability bonus for having four legs?

Not so difficult.

Z makes a trip attempt opposed by X.
IF X loses X goes prone.
X and Y can grapple while Y is standing and X is prone. That is actually mentioned somewhere in the FAQ.

I would not give X a bonus but a penalty as he is denied his dex in relation to Z.(meaning he is focused on grappling Y, and has less energy/skill to resist the trip attempt by Z)
JamesMaissen
09-14-06, 02:25 PM -Grapple checks are based on the the total number of attacks available to you as a full round action including TWF, Haste, Flurry.

Care to try to cite a rule supporting this rather than based upon the attacks your BAB would give.

For example with TWF you gain the extra attack with the offhand weapon.. how is making a grapple check for damage doing so?

-James
Halworth
09-14-06, 11:59 PM This is all conjecture.

My reasoning is based on this:

Flurry is a class ability not BAB.

IF number of attacks from flurry can be added to the number of grapple checks, then you the total number of attacks per round = the number of grapple checks.

IF you think the extra attacks granted by flurry should NOT be added to the numer of grapple checks, then TWF and Haste should NOT apply.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreatSiron 09-01-06, 05:21 PM	How would the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat and the monk's Flurry of Blows interact? I know TWF lowers the penatly for fighting with both hands, and Flurry of Blows gives you an extra attack, abbet at -2 penanty. But can you do both at the same time, like making 2 attacks with one hand, then one with the other? How would that work? I guess the question is: Does a monk using TWF with Flurry of Blows get 3 attacks, or just 2?
Nerax 09-01-06, 07:27 PM	You gain one extra attack (for a total of three) with your "off hand weapon." But it is a -4 to all of your attacks. Flurry penalty (-2) stacked with TWF w/light off hand weapon penalty(-2).
GreatSiron 09-02-06, 12:35 AM	That's all I needed to know. Thanks. Now I can begin work on my halfling monk.
Halworth 09-08-06, 12:24 AM	Okay I can dig that. But what about this. When in a grapple you can make as many opposed grapple checks as attacks you have. So if my monk get 2 attacks for flurry and one more for Two weapon fighting do the negatives apply or not ? Do I get 3 opposed grapple checks with NO penalties? grapple check = BAB + Strength + size Bonus, right?
JamesMaissen 09-08-06, 09:05 AM	Okay I can dig that. But what about this. When in a grapple you can make as many opposed grapple checks as attacks you have. So if my monk get 2 attacks for flurry and one more for Two weapon fighting do the negatives apply or not ? Do I get 3 opposed grapple checks with NO penalties? grapple check = BAB + Strength + size Bonus, right? First the premise is wrong. When in a grapple you can make grapple checks based on your BAB, not number of attacks. Second you cannot TWF in a grapple explicitly. -James
Halworth 09-10-06, 02:35 AM	First the premise is wrong. When in a grapple you can make grapple checks based on your BAB, not number of attacks. Second you cannot TWF in a grapple explicitly. -James Can you point me to a book/source and page number on that? I looked but all I found was the FAQ which states MONSTERS attacks are restricted by BAB. Is there something else you are basing this statement on, or is that it? Thanks:D
GorTeX 09-10-06, 03:21 PM	I don't see any problem with Flurrying in a grapple, but TWF is explicitly disallowed. Espcially if you attack your opponent (tho this would be at -6!)...if you choose to damage your opponent and flurry, I'd think the grapple check would be at -2 If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. ... Attack Your Opponent You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. .. Damage Your Opponent While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.
Halworth 09-10-06, 06:52 PM	IF multiple grapple checks should be based on the NUMBER of attacks granted by BAB only, and not other things like Haste, TWF then you would not be able to make multiple grapple checks against your opponet based on the numer of flurry attacks. At first level a monk has one attack because of BAB. However with flurry he has two attacks. In a grapple this monk could damage his opponet twice with opposed grapple checks(not attacks), because of the 2 attacks from the flurry. Flurry is NOT BAB. It is a class ability. I would propose if that monk is hasted and gains another attack, he would be gain one more opposed grapple check. Basically if it can work for flurry(non-BAB attack) it can work for other things that provide additional attacks.(Haste, TWF, etc) Sure it says you cannot ATTACK with two weapons, grapple checks are NOT attacks. But as near as I can tell number of grapple checks = Number attacks as a full round action. (Haste, Flurry, TWF included) Just my humble opinion. Thank you for the discourse it really helped flush out the idea.
Iswald 09-10-06, 10:24 PM	Grapple checks, while like attack rolls, are not actually attack rolls. This is why you can't TWF or flurry to gain more grapple checks. Although, there is something in the FAQ that lets you start grapple checks when doing a flurry, it doesn't explain what happens when you succeed at grappling in the middle of a flurry.
GrahamWills 09-11-06, 11:17 PM	Grapple checks, while like attack rolls, are not actually attack rolls. This is why you can't TWF or flurry to gain more grapple checks. Although, there is something in the FAQ that lets you start grapple checks when doing a flurry, it doesn't explain what happens when you succeed at grappling in the middle of a flurry. You need to read the rules a tad more carefully. It specifically says that Grapple checks to do damage are made in place of an attack. As such, they replace any attack. Therefore you can flurry in a grapple. The only reason you cannot TWF in a grapple is that the rules specifically say you cannot. By the rules, since grapple checks are not attack rolls, they are not affected by anything affecting attacks. So bless, prayer, weapon focus, etc. None of them will help you. On the other hand the grapple check uses your BAB, not your actual attack bonus, so flurrying does not hurt you. So if you flurry and make a touch attack with your first flurry, you are left with one attack, which you can replace with a grapple check. You could also replace it with a trip attack, disarm or anything else which is used instead of an attack. Another way to think of it is as similar to trip -- a flurry of grapples is similar to a flurry of trips, except that if you touch with the first you have established a grapple and have no need to touch again. If this rule was not the case, consider the sitution of a monk who grapples successfully with the first flurry. His best bet is to release the target as a free action and then touch and damage him again. That's plain silly, as it basically says you undo and redo the touch for no good reason. If you want a really hard one, riddle this one -- suppose X is grappling Y and Z makes a trip attack on X. What happens? Who falls down? Who opposes it? Do you get a stability bonus for having four legs?
GorTeX 09-12-06, 03:57 PM	I have no problem flurring to do damage in a grapple...but the grapple check should be at an additional -2. but apparently the FAQ doesn't agree with meFAQ notes: ()monks can flurry and make grapple checks ()Grapple check isn't an attack roll (no Combat expertise or Power attacks) ()Exalted strike bonus does not apply to grapple checks. ()no crits on a grapple check ()no auto succeed or fail on grapple checks Note that you can't release someone from a grapple as a free action...it takes a grapple check to get out of a grapple (whether you started the grapple or not)
Halworth 09-13-06, 02:46 AM	The only reason you cannot TWF in a grapple is that the rules specifically say you cannot. I assume you are referring to the PHB p.156 it says "You can’t ATTACK with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons" Once again these are NOT attacks, they are grapple checks. -Grapple checks are based on the the total number of attacks available to you as a full round action including TWF, Haste, Flurry. If you want a really hard one, riddle this one -- suppose X is grappling Y and Z makes a trip attack on X. What happens? Who falls down? Who opposes it? Do you get a stability bonus for having four legs? Not so difficult. Z makes a trip attempt opposed by X. IF X loses X goes prone. X and Y can grapple while Y is standing and X is prone. That is actually mentioned somewhere in the FAQ. I would not give X a bonus but a penalty as he is denied his dex in relation to Z.(meaning he is focused on grappling Y, and has less energy/skill to resist the trip attempt by Z)
JamesMaissen 09-14-06, 02:25 PM	-Grapple checks are based on the the total number of attacks available to you as a full round action including TWF, Haste, Flurry. Care to try to cite a rule supporting this rather than based upon the attacks your BAB would give. For example with TWF you gain the extra attack with the offhand weapon.. how is making a grapple check for damage doing so? -James
Halworth 09-14-06, 11:59 PM	This is all conjecture. My reasoning is based on this: Flurry is a class ability not BAB. IF number of attacks from flurry can be added to the number of grapple checks, then you the total number of attacks per round = the number of grapple checks. IF you think the extra attacks granted by flurry should NOT be added to the numer of grapple checks, then TWF and Haste should NOT apply.