Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Howie23 05-10-07, 04:58 PM	Does an undersized one-handed weapon used in the offhand limit the TWF penalty to -2? Is it treated as a light weapon? Example: Medium character using medium longsword and small longsword. David
Jay_Ibero_911 05-10-07, 05:53 PM	Does an undersized one-handed weapon used in the offhand limit the TWF penalty to -2? Is it treated as a light weapon? Example: Medium character using medium longsword and small longsword. David Yeah, but then you deal with the -2 penalty for inappropriate size. You are better off just using a shortsword in that case, or taking Oversized TWF.
Howie23 05-10-07, 08:22 PM	Yeah, but then you deal with the -2 penalty for inappropriate size. You are better off just using a shortsword in that case, or taking Oversized TWF. That's what I thought (just the -2 for inappropriate size). The rationale is to leverage the focus/specialization/improved critical feats through the same weapon type w/o taking an additional feat. David
Dr.Cornelius 05-12-07, 07:40 PM	Howie23 - I applaude your creativity, but a purely semantic argument for "small longsword" counting as a longsword for the purpose of feats is pushing the limits of rules lawyering. Is there a practical difference between a small longsword and a medium shortsword, other than the label? Coming accross such a weapon, how would you know which it is? Using the size tables to change the name of a weapon without changing it in any practical way does not work in my book. Expect table variation.
King Kashue 05-12-07, 08:14 PM	Howie23 - I applaude your creativity, but a purely semantic argument for "small longsword" counting as a longsword for the purpose of feats is pushing the limits of rules lawyering. Is there a practical difference between a small longsword and a medium shortsword, other than the label? Coming accross such a weapon, how would you know which it is? Using the size tables to change the name of a weapon without changing it in any practical way does not work in my book. Expect table variation. It's not semantics, the rules are explicit (PHB p.113). It's a longsword. The PHB is entirely clear on that. And to answer your question, there is most certainly a difference (several, actually) between a small longsword and a medium short sword. -One is a piercing weapon (the shortsword), one is a slashing weapon (the long sword). -A medium creature takes a -2 with the longsword, not with the shortsword. A small creature can wield the longsword one-handed, not the shortsword. And there is a practical change in relation to the character, the character is taking a -2 penalty on his/her attacks because of size (each -1 equating to roughly 6-10% in average damage), and in exchange can apply feats that apply to the weapon... You're arguing a 3.0 argument. In 3.5, there is a definite and explicitly defined difference between a small longsword and a medium shortsword.
Howie23 05-12-07, 09:46 PM	Howie23 - I applaude your creativity, but a purely semantic argument for "small longsword" counting as a longsword for the purpose of feats is pushing the limits of rules lawyering. Is there a practical difference between a small longsword and a medium shortsword, other than the label? Coming accross such a weapon, how would you know which it is? Using the size tables to change the name of a weapon without changing it in any practical way does not work in my book. Expect table variation. Thanks for the suggestion that there might be variance, but based upon what aspect of the rules? Were the rules consistent with what you've suggested, that the only difference between weapons of a particular type is the size, then sword would be a single category for proficiency feats. Instead, the rules treat weapons differently based upon how they are used. A longsword is a slashing weapon. A shortsword is a piercing weapon. A Small longsword is a slashing weapon, whether used by a Small creature or a Medium creature. A character with Weapon Focus (longsword) is proficient in using these slashing weapons, some of which are larger than others. When small enough, it becomes a light weapon. It gains all the characteristics of a light weapon with respect to two handed fighting, power attacking, sundering, disarming, etc. It is used at a -2 penalty. Thanks again. If you think there is a rules basis for denying it, I'd like to hear it. David
JamesMaissen 05-13-07, 03:49 AM	Thanks again. If you think there is a rules basis for denying it, I'd like to hear it. David I think that you are okay here, just note that if you are for some reason using weapon finesse (ie with a rapier and small sized rapier) that size does matter for that feat. It's also a good argument for size NOT mattering for weapon focus. It's also conveniently located on the same page in the PHB. Though whenever you do something that you feel is significantly away from the norm, its a good idea to go over that with the judge before the situation becomes complicated. That way things are not rushed when you need to go over it with them and people can be more objective when looking at it. -James
Howie23 05-13-07, 11:19 AM	I think that you are okay here, just note that if you are for some reason using weapon finesse (ie with a rapier and small sized rapier) that size does matter for that feat. That's good to know, as I was looking at thinblade. Thanks for pointing it out. Though whenever you do something that you feel is significantly away from the norm, its a good idea to go over that with the judge before the situation becomes complicated. That way things are not rushed when you need to go over it with them and people can be more objective when looking at it. Agreed. Thanks again. David
Mithreinmaethor 05-13-07, 12:41 PM	If you are an elf why not take Improved Weapon Familiarity and use the 2 elven weapons. Then you can just take the WF and WS feats for Rapier and go at it.
Howie23 05-13-07, 01:30 PM	If you are an elf why not take Improved Weapon Familiarity and use the 2 elven weapons. Then you can just take the WF and WS feats for Rapier and go at it. I'm looking at a Champion of Correlon TWF build with Swash1 / Ranger 3 / Clr 1 /Wildrunner 2 / Fighter 1 on entry to CoC. It later gets another Ftr level, and probably more Wildrunner after CoC2. It is a bit feat starved. I won't be taking WS at all. What does work from your suggestion is to take Improved Crit Rapier, and off hand an elven lightblade. I won't have the WpnFoc there (I'll have WpnFoc(longsword) from War domain, and Improved Wpn Familiarity). It actually is an improvement on the offhand attack with small thinblade: Wpn Focus +1 and inappropriate size (-2) is -1 vs. +0 for the lightblade. Wpn Focus (longsword) and Improved Crit (rapier) does the job. Thanks for help. David