Uncanny Blow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Uncanny Blow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ThaiGQ
06-19-07, 06:40 PM Hey guys, I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I probably wasn't around to hear the answer, so my apologies in advance... :(

About the Uncanny Blow exotic weapon stunt option (for the Exotic Weapon Master), what benefit does it confer exactly?

"Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls."

The first part is pretty straightforward, but what about the second part? I'm assuming it allows a character to trade 1 point of BAB for 2 points of damage when Power Attacking even when wielding the exotic weapon one-handed?

P.S. Is there an easier way to post the description of a feat, class ability, spell, etc... than opening up the book and then typing it in manually? Just curious (and lazy :P )...
Mattastrophic
06-19-07, 06:49 PM The first part is pretty straightforward, but what about the second part?

In all reality, that sentence does absolutely nothing. It's just restating what's in the PHB about wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands and using Power Attack.

-Matt
bitznarf
06-19-07, 06:50 PM "Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls."

The first part is pretty straightforward, but what about the second part? I'm assuming it allows a character to trade 1 point of BAB for 2 points of damage when Power Attacking even when wielding the exotic weapon one-handed?
This is something that is subject to table variation. One side says that the "...he treats the weapon as two-handed..." bit is simply extraneous text (as has happened before with rules that reference Power Attack) and thus that part of the text doesn't change anything: you would still need to use it 2 handed to get a 2:1 ratio on your power attack. The other reads it how you just did, with that line being separate from the one before it.

I recommend you do a search on the forums for one of the other threads on the topic so that everyone gets to save some breath instead of beating a dead horse.
JamesMaissen
06-20-07, 12:54 AM About the Uncanny Blow exotic weapon stunt option (for the Exotic Weapon Master), what benefit does it confer exactly?

"Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls."

The first part is pretty straightforward, but what about the second part? I'm assuming it allows a character to trade 1 point of BAB for 2 points of damage when Power Attacking even when wielding the exotic weapon one-handed?

Some people will claim that the second part is just saying nothing out of the blue.

I don't agree. For two reasons.

While D&D does repeat rules (for clarity) they don't tend to include reminders for rules that aren't otherwise applicable. Power attack has no relation to the rest of the stunt in question.. it's as likely to be included as a reminder that you loose your Dodge bonuses when you are denied your Dex modifier.

And if you will note the exact wording. The *Weapon is treated as two-handed* is not a phrase that has been used with Power Attack in other sources. They have always gone to the length to say 'two handed weapon or a one handed weapon wielded in two hands' instead of simply classifying that as the same thing. They have been VERY good about this and it should not be ignored. Melee weapons are of a given type (light, one handed or two handed) and are only *treated* as a different type when used by inappropriately sized wielders.

The language is very clear when read very carefully. However it can be missed upon first read, and seems quite powerful. This is a bad recipie for being accepted.

So you will get religious opposition to this, but I find it missplaced. The 'Flurry of Strikes' stunt from the same PrC is FAR more powerful than something which only serves to lesson the near requirement on Power Attackers for an animated shield. It's one of those perceived 'broken' areas that doesn't live up to things quite as much as the hype around it.

-James
copper_wyrmling
06-20-07, 07:05 AM Melee weapons are of a given type (light, one handed or two handed) and are only *treated* as a different type when used by inappropriately sized wielders.

This seems like the same sort of argument that people were using to say that a lance wielded one-handed gets 2:1 power attack (because it's still a two-handed weapon). The FAQ has said that this interpretation is wrong:

"When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons,
they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium
character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a
“two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium
lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed
weapon."
(p39 in my copy of the FAQ, or search for that text)

Incidentally, I think at least part of the religious opposition comes from the potential for wielding two weapons and getting 2:1 PA on both, if you read it your way.
thorinXXX
06-20-07, 04:15 PM This seems like the same sort of argument that people were using to say that a lance wielded one-handed gets 2:1 power attack (because it's still a two-handed weapon). The FAQ has said that this interpretation is wrong:

"When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons,
they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium
character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a
“two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium
lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed
weapon."
(p39 in my copy of the FAQ, or search for that text)

Incidentally, I think at least part of the religious opposition comes from the potential for wielding two weapons and getting 2:1 PA on both, if you read it your way.

Most people scream game balance when declaring the second sentence as fluff. What nobody seems to realize is exactly what is being given up.
I would say that the minimum Str of someone using Uncanny Blow is 18. It is much more likely to be 22+ with rage and stat boosts. At 18 Str the character is giving up 4 points of damage per hit to use the weapon one handed, or a -2 to hit to do the same damage. For a 22 Str it is 6 points of damage or a -3 to hit. For a 26 Str it is 8/-4. What is gained? A shield? An off hand weapon?

For someone to worry about the interaction of 3+ feats and a class special ability which can only be used with a limited number of weapons seems a bit extreme. Especially when one of those feat chains is stat intensive, which means that the character will have a lower Str to take advantage of Uncanny Blow.
Timlagor
06-20-07, 05:32 PM If youare TWFing the weapons 1-handed for 2:1 PA (which i don't allow) you aren't using the Str part of uncanny blow; you could do it with Finessed Thinblades (not that it doesn't work with Strength).

It is cetrainly abusable. Whether it is worse than other powerful things is another question. In any case I don't believe the RAW allows it.
JamesMaissen
06-20-07, 06:17 PM Incidentally, I think at least part of the religious opposition comes from the potential for wielding two weapons and getting 2:1 PA on both, if you read it your way.

I've heard this argument, but I don't buy into it.

Make out a dual wielding Bastard Sword user with feats AND stats.

Now do the same with a flurry of strikes Spiked Chain user.

Compare the two.

-James
thorinXXX
06-20-07, 06:55 PM If youare TWFing the weapons 1-handed for 2:1 PA (which i don't allow) you aren't using the Str part of uncanny blow; you could do it with Finessed Thinblades (not that it doesn't work with Strength).

It is cetrainly abusable. Whether it is worse than other powerful things is another question. In any case I don't believe the RAW allows it.

So you are saying that the highlighted portion is just fluff text, and has no meaning.

"Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls."
dkay807
06-20-07, 11:03 PM So you are saying that the highlighted portion is just fluff text, and has no meaning.

"Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls."

For the record, I agree that the intent here is clear. I'm surprised that a FAQ entry has not yet been released. I played for two full years with a player that dual-weilded bastard swords and used this ability and not a single judge questioned it. However, due to the increasing controversey around this, I wouldn't dare make a character that tried to use the ability due solely to the fact that there are so many DMs that now oppose this.
Gwumph
06-21-07, 02:06 AM Sorry am I missing something here.

How do you dual weild bastard swords and attack effectively.

All your attacks are at a -4 and then add some negatives for PA and you are like a 7th lv fighter with a +3 to hit. Not very effective.
GreatSiron
06-21-07, 02:31 AM Sorry am I missing something here.

How do you dual weild bastard swords and attack effectively.

All your attacks are at a -4 and then add some negatives for PA and you are like a 7th lv fighter with a +3 to hit. Not very effective.

Oversized Two Weapon Fighting from Complete Warrior.
Gwumph
06-21-07, 04:39 AM Sorry Great Siron

What page is that feat because I don't see it anywhere in the CW.
ThaiGQ
06-21-07, 06:23 AM It's actually Complete Adventurer p. 111
Timlagor
06-21-07, 01:15 PM So you are saying that the highlighted portion is just fluff text, and has no meaning.

"Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls."

No I think it is 'reminder text' ...quite possibly written by someone who didn't understand that a 1H weapon wielded in two hands always get 2:1 PA.

"the weapon" refers back to the previous sentence which doesn't work it isn't a "one-handed exotic weapon [wielded] in tow hands".

I don't believe the more generous interpretation is grammatically supportable.
I don't believe that they would have failed to make it clear if they had meant the more generous reading to be used. [cf Revenant Blade]
JamesMaissen
06-22-07, 02:39 AM No I think it is 'reminder text' ...quite possibly written by someone who didn't understand that a 1H weapon wielded in two hands always get 2:1 PA.

Why 'remind' about Power Attack? The stunt, if read that way, does NOTHING with power attack.

Also, EVERY other time Power Attack Ratios are talked about they separate 'two-handed weapons' and 'one handed weapons wielded in two hands'.

Why not remind them about the bonus on disarm while we're there? (a bit of sarcasm)

And as the wording is 'the weapon is treated' not 'the weapon wielded this way' or any such, it doesn't seem dependent upon how it is wielded. It doesn't seem out of line to give a benefit to wielding the weapon one handed as well as a benefit when using both hands.

Besides when alls said and done the more powerful ability is still flurry of strikes.

-James

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ThaiGQ 06-19-07, 06:40 PM	Hey guys, I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I probably wasn't around to hear the answer, so my apologies in advance... :( About the Uncanny Blow exotic weapon stunt option (for the Exotic Weapon Master), what benefit does it confer exactly? "Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls." The first part is pretty straightforward, but what about the second part? I'm assuming it allows a character to trade 1 point of BAB for 2 points of damage when Power Attacking even when wielding the exotic weapon one-handed? P.S. Is there an easier way to post the description of a feat, class ability, spell, etc... than opening up the book and then typing it in manually? Just curious (and lazy :P )...
Mattastrophic 06-19-07, 06:49 PM	The first part is pretty straightforward, but what about the second part? In all reality, that sentence does absolutely nothing. It's just restating what's in the PHB about wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands and using Power Attack. -Matt
bitznarf 06-19-07, 06:50 PM	"Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls." The first part is pretty straightforward, but what about the second part? I'm assuming it allows a character to trade 1 point of BAB for 2 points of damage when Power Attacking even when wielding the exotic weapon one-handed? This is something that is subject to table variation. One side says that the "...he treats the weapon as two-handed..." bit is simply extraneous text (as has happened before with rules that reference Power Attack) and thus that part of the text doesn't change anything: you would still need to use it 2 handed to get a 2:1 ratio on your power attack. The other reads it how you just did, with that line being separate from the one before it. I recommend you do a search on the forums for one of the other threads on the topic so that everyone gets to save some breath instead of beating a dead horse.
JamesMaissen 06-20-07, 12:54 AM	About the Uncanny Blow exotic weapon stunt option (for the Exotic Weapon Master), what benefit does it confer exactly? "Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls." The first part is pretty straightforward, but what about the second part? I'm assuming it allows a character to trade 1 point of BAB for 2 points of damage when Power Attacking even when wielding the exotic weapon one-handed? Some people will claim that the second part is just saying nothing out of the blue. I don't agree. For two reasons. While D&D does repeat rules (for clarity) they don't tend to include reminders for rules that aren't otherwise applicable. Power attack has no relation to the rest of the stunt in question.. it's as likely to be included as a reminder that you loose your Dodge bonuses when you are denied your Dex modifier. And if you will note the exact wording. The Weapon is treated as two-handed is not a phrase that has been used with Power Attack in other sources. They have always gone to the length to say 'two handed weapon or a one handed weapon wielded in two hands' instead of simply classifying that as the same thing. They have been VERY good about this and it should not be ignored. Melee weapons are of a given type (light, one handed or two handed) and are only treated as a different type when used by inappropriately sized wielders. The language is very clear when read very carefully. However it can be missed upon first read, and seems quite powerful. This is a bad recipie for being accepted. So you will get religious opposition to this, but I find it missplaced. The 'Flurry of Strikes' stunt from the same PrC is FAR more powerful than something which only serves to lesson the near requirement on Power Attackers for an animated shield. It's one of those perceived 'broken' areas that doesn't live up to things quite as much as the hype around it. -James
copper_wyrmling 06-20-07, 07:05 AM	Melee weapons are of a given type (light, one handed or two handed) and are only treated as a different type when used by inappropriately sized wielders. This seems like the same sort of argument that people were using to say that a lance wielded one-handed gets 2:1 power attack (because it's still a two-handed weapon). The FAQ has said that this interpretation is wrong: "When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon." (p39 in my copy of the FAQ, or search for that text) Incidentally, I think at least part of the religious opposition comes from the potential for wielding two weapons and getting 2:1 PA on both, if you read it your way.
thorinXXX 06-20-07, 04:15 PM	This seems like the same sort of argument that people were using to say that a lance wielded one-handed gets 2:1 power attack (because it's still a two-handed weapon). The FAQ has said that this interpretation is wrong: "When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon." (p39 in my copy of the FAQ, or search for that text) Incidentally, I think at least part of the religious opposition comes from the potential for wielding two weapons and getting 2:1 PA on both, if you read it your way. Most people scream game balance when declaring the second sentence as fluff. What nobody seems to realize is exactly what is being given up. I would say that the minimum Str of someone using Uncanny Blow is 18. It is much more likely to be 22+ with rage and stat boosts. At 18 Str the character is giving up 4 points of damage per hit to use the weapon one handed, or a -2 to hit to do the same damage. For a 22 Str it is 6 points of damage or a -3 to hit. For a 26 Str it is 8/-4. What is gained? A shield? An off hand weapon? For someone to worry about the interaction of 3+ feats and a class special ability which can only be used with a limited number of weapons seems a bit extreme. Especially when one of those feat chains is stat intensive, which means that the character will have a lower Str to take advantage of Uncanny Blow.
Timlagor 06-20-07, 05:32 PM	If youare TWFing the weapons 1-handed for 2:1 PA (which i don't allow) you aren't using the Str part of uncanny blow; you could do it with Finessed Thinblades (not that it doesn't work with Strength). It is cetrainly abusable. Whether it is worse than other powerful things is another question. In any case I don't believe the RAW allows it.
JamesMaissen 06-20-07, 06:17 PM	Incidentally, I think at least part of the religious opposition comes from the potential for wielding two weapons and getting 2:1 PA on both, if you read it your way. I've heard this argument, but I don't buy into it. Make out a dual wielding Bastard Sword user with feats AND stats. Now do the same with a flurry of strikes Spiked Chain user. Compare the two. -James
thorinXXX 06-20-07, 06:55 PM	If youare TWFing the weapons 1-handed for 2:1 PA (which i don't allow) you aren't using the Str part of uncanny blow; you could do it with Finessed Thinblades (not that it doesn't work with Strength). It is cetrainly abusable. Whether it is worse than other powerful things is another question. In any case I don't believe the RAW allows it. So you are saying that the highlighted portion is just fluff text, and has no meaning. "Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls."
dkay807 06-20-07, 11:03 PM	So you are saying that the highlighted portion is just fluff text, and has no meaning. "Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls." For the record, I agree that the intent here is clear. I'm surprised that a FAQ entry has not yet been released. I played for two full years with a player that dual-weilded bastard swords and used this ability and not a single judge questioned it. However, due to the increasing controversey around this, I wouldn't dare make a character that tried to use the ability due solely to the fact that there are so many DMs that now oppose this.
Gwumph 06-21-07, 02:06 AM	Sorry am I missing something here. How do you dual weild bastard swords and attack effectively. All your attacks are at a -4 and then add some negatives for PA and you are like a 7th lv fighter with a +3 to hit. Not very effective.
GreatSiron 06-21-07, 02:31 AM	Sorry am I missing something here. How do you dual weild bastard swords and attack effectively. All your attacks are at a -4 and then add some negatives for PA and you are like a 7th lv fighter with a +3 to hit. Not very effective. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting from Complete Warrior.
Gwumph 06-21-07, 04:39 AM	Sorry Great Siron What page is that feat because I don't see it anywhere in the CW.
ThaiGQ 06-21-07, 06:23 AM	It's actually Complete Adventurer p. 111
Timlagor 06-21-07, 01:15 PM	So you are saying that the highlighted portion is just fluff text, and has no meaning. "Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls." No I think it is 'reminder text' ...quite possibly written by someone who didn't understand that a 1H weapon wielded in two hands always get 2:1 PA. "the weapon" refers back to the previous sentence which doesn't work it isn't a "one-handed exotic weapon [wielded] in tow hands". I don't believe the more generous interpretation is grammatically supportable. I don't believe that they would have failed to make it clear if they had meant the more generous reading to be used. [cf Revenant Blade]
JamesMaissen 06-22-07, 02:39 AM	No I think it is 'reminder text' ...quite possibly written by someone who didn't understand that a 1H weapon wielded in two hands always get 2:1 PA. Why 'remind' about Power Attack? The stunt, if read that way, does NOTHING with power attack. Also, EVERY other time Power Attack Ratios are talked about they separate 'two-handed weapons' and 'one handed weapons wielded in two hands'. Why not remind them about the bonus on disarm while we're there? (a bit of sarcasm) And as the wording is 'the weapon is treated' not 'the weapon wielded this way' or any such, it doesn't seem dependent upon how it is wielded. It doesn't seem out of line to give a benefit to wielding the weapon one handed as well as a benefit when using both hands. Besides when alls said and done the more powerful ability is still flurry of strikes. -James