Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DragonDai
08-14-06, 01:47 AM Ok, so there are two feats in Races of the Wild. The feats are Underfoot Comabt and Confound the Big Folk.

Underfoot Combat has prereqs of Tumble 10 ranks and Small or Smaller Size. That means you have to be at least lvl 7 before you can take it because you cannot have 10 or more ranks in a skill before you are 7th level.

Confound the Big Folk has prereqs of Tumble 10 ranks, Small or Smaller Size, and Underfoot Combat. So this means you couldn't take this feat till you were level 7 at least and until you already took Underfoot Combat, which you also can't take till 7.

So here is the issue. Neither of these feats are marked as acceptable as Fighter Bonus Feats. Because of this, there is no way I can think of to take Underfoot Combat until level 9, when all characters get a Feat per class levels. If this is true, then there is no way to take Confound the Big Folk until lvl 12, when everyone gets another Feat per class levels. This would make the feats less than good, to put it mildly, not to mention making the prereqs very very silly (Tumble rank 10 at level 12???).

Also, these feats are obviously fighter style feats. Sure, they are ment for smaller size folk and for fighters who value tactics and nimbleness more than pure brute str. But any Gnome or Halfling fighter isn't purely focused on maxing out his str anyways, and since Gnomes focus on combating Giants, these feats seem natural choices for them. But the fact that it seems like Fighters cannot take these as bonus feats makes them very very very poor choices, as at that level, there are much better feats to take.

Anyways, the question is, are these Fighter Bonus Feats? If not, is there something I am missing (class, skill, another feat) that would allow you to get these eairlyer than 9th and 12th? Or are they just feats that really really suck and yet another example of a feat made purely to take up space on a blank page in a new book?

Thanks for your help in advance,
Ciao,
DragonDai
Iswald
08-14-06, 10:06 AM Ok, so there are two feats in Races of the Wild. The feats are Underfoot Comabt and Confound the Big Folk.

You must have been cheated. My copy of RotW doesn't have a mere two feats.

Anyways, the question is, are these Fighter Bonus Feats? If not, is there something I am missing (class, skill, another feat) that would allow you to get these eairlyer than 9th and 12th? Or are they just feats that really really suck and yet another example of a feat made purely to take up space on a blank page in a new book?

They are not fighter bonus feats. You may think that they suck and some will agree with you. Others, have found ways to make use of these two feats. There is always the possibility that the feats will appear somewhere else and be given as bonus feats in a PrC which could allow a character to have them at earlier levels.

I'm somewhat perplexed as to why you posted in this particular forum.
paigeoliver
08-14-06, 12:01 PM He most likely posted in this forum because he plays living greyhawk and because "normal" D&D doesn't have a level 15 endpoint built into the game.

There are a few tricks you can do to deal with feat trees that are not fighter bonus feats.

Look for bonus feats granted by classes that include the text "if the character already has this feat then they may select another one". Those are your ticket right there. You have to take extraneous levels of a class that has absolutely nothing to do with what you want to do in order to do what you want to do.

I ran into this same kind of problem wanting to make a dual wand weilding druid. Normally you can't have one until level 9. But if you take a completely unrelated level in marshall then you can have one at level 6.

I did not account for a human bonus feat on my little chart below, but it wouldn't have helped any.

1. Druid - Skill focus diplomacy.
2. Druid.
3. Druid 2 weapon fighting/
4 druid.
5. druid.
6. Marshall, craft wand, dual wand wielder.

You can probably come up with something similar for your underfoot feats.
JamesMaissen
08-14-06, 03:51 PM Anyways, the question is, are these Fighter Bonus Feats? If not, is there something I am missing (class, skill, another feat) that would allow you to get these eairlyer than 9th and 12th? Or are they just feats that really really suck and yet another example of a feat made purely to take up space on a blank page in a new book?

Thanks for your help in advance,
Ciao,
DragonDai

As others have said they are not Fighter Bonus Feats. There are lots of things that are not fighter bonus feats and can't be taken earlier by dipping into Fighter for a level.

You can do quite a few things to take these feats earlier. Marshal is one example (as is Tactical Soldier) of a class that allows you to take a free feat if it's normal bonus feat is already possessed by the character that would otherwise gain it. Simple Rogue10 can take it (although I would suggest one of the other rogue specials instead of this feat) should they desire. Likewise there are PrCs which give bonus feats that are different from the fighter list (Champion of Corellon in that same book for example).

As to when the feat is available vs it's worth, now that's a tough call. But if getting the feat by 9th or 10th would make it viable but useless by 12th then you have a very short range of play with the character in question. I would steer away from such short lived feats.. that's why many people avoid things like toughness.

As to 'useless' feats there certainly is no shortage there depending on how you value them. I think there are alot that could use work. These feats, however, seem to have some potential or atleast appear to do so.

-James
Iswald
08-14-06, 10:32 PM He most likely posted in this forum because he plays living greyhawk and because "normal" D&D doesn't have a level 15 endpoint built into the game.

I'm just thinking that the general LG forum would have been better than the LG specific rules forum.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragonDai 08-14-06, 01:47 AM	Ok, so there are two feats in Races of the Wild. The feats are Underfoot Comabt and Confound the Big Folk. Underfoot Combat has prereqs of Tumble 10 ranks and Small or Smaller Size. That means you have to be at least lvl 7 before you can take it because you cannot have 10 or more ranks in a skill before you are 7th level. Confound the Big Folk has prereqs of Tumble 10 ranks, Small or Smaller Size, and Underfoot Combat. So this means you couldn't take this feat till you were level 7 at least and until you already took Underfoot Combat, which you also can't take till 7. So here is the issue. Neither of these feats are marked as acceptable as Fighter Bonus Feats. Because of this, there is no way I can think of to take Underfoot Combat until level 9, when all characters get a Feat per class levels. If this is true, then there is no way to take Confound the Big Folk until lvl 12, when everyone gets another Feat per class levels. This would make the feats less than good, to put it mildly, not to mention making the prereqs very very silly (Tumble rank 10 at level 12???). Also, these feats are obviously fighter style feats. Sure, they are ment for smaller size folk and for fighters who value tactics and nimbleness more than pure brute str. But any Gnome or Halfling fighter isn't purely focused on maxing out his str anyways, and since Gnomes focus on combating Giants, these feats seem natural choices for them. But the fact that it seems like Fighters cannot take these as bonus feats makes them very very very poor choices, as at that level, there are much better feats to take. Anyways, the question is, are these Fighter Bonus Feats? If not, is there something I am missing (class, skill, another feat) that would allow you to get these eairlyer than 9th and 12th? Or are they just feats that really really suck and yet another example of a feat made purely to take up space on a blank page in a new book? Thanks for your help in advance, Ciao, DragonDai
Iswald 08-14-06, 10:06 AM	Ok, so there are two feats in Races of the Wild. The feats are Underfoot Comabt and Confound the Big Folk. You must have been cheated. My copy of RotW doesn't have a mere two feats. Anyways, the question is, are these Fighter Bonus Feats? If not, is there something I am missing (class, skill, another feat) that would allow you to get these eairlyer than 9th and 12th? Or are they just feats that really really suck and yet another example of a feat made purely to take up space on a blank page in a new book? They are not fighter bonus feats. You may think that they suck and some will agree with you. Others, have found ways to make use of these two feats. There is always the possibility that the feats will appear somewhere else and be given as bonus feats in a PrC which could allow a character to have them at earlier levels. I'm somewhat perplexed as to why you posted in this particular forum.
paigeoliver 08-14-06, 12:01 PM	He most likely posted in this forum because he plays living greyhawk and because "normal" D&D doesn't have a level 15 endpoint built into the game. There are a few tricks you can do to deal with feat trees that are not fighter bonus feats. Look for bonus feats granted by classes that include the text "if the character already has this feat then they may select another one". Those are your ticket right there. You have to take extraneous levels of a class that has absolutely nothing to do with what you want to do in order to do what you want to do. I ran into this same kind of problem wanting to make a dual wand weilding druid. Normally you can't have one until level 9. But if you take a completely unrelated level in marshall then you can have one at level 6. I did not account for a human bonus feat on my little chart below, but it wouldn't have helped any. 1. Druid - Skill focus diplomacy. 2. Druid. 3. Druid 2 weapon fighting/ 4 druid. 5. druid. 6. Marshall, craft wand, dual wand wielder. You can probably come up with something similar for your underfoot feats.
JamesMaissen 08-14-06, 03:51 PM	Anyways, the question is, are these Fighter Bonus Feats? If not, is there something I am missing (class, skill, another feat) that would allow you to get these eairlyer than 9th and 12th? Or are they just feats that really really suck and yet another example of a feat made purely to take up space on a blank page in a new book? Thanks for your help in advance, Ciao, DragonDai As others have said they are not Fighter Bonus Feats. There are lots of things that are not fighter bonus feats and can't be taken earlier by dipping into Fighter for a level. You can do quite a few things to take these feats earlier. Marshal is one example (as is Tactical Soldier) of a class that allows you to take a free feat if it's normal bonus feat is already possessed by the character that would otherwise gain it. Simple Rogue10 can take it (although I would suggest one of the other rogue specials instead of this feat) should they desire. Likewise there are PrCs which give bonus feats that are different from the fighter list (Champion of Corellon in that same book for example). As to when the feat is available vs it's worth, now that's a tough call. But if getting the feat by 9th or 10th would make it viable but useless by 12th then you have a very short range of play with the character in question. I would steer away from such short lived feats.. that's why many people avoid things like toughness. As to 'useless' feats there certainly is no shortage there depending on how you value them. I think there are alot that could use work. These feats, however, seem to have some potential or atleast appear to do so. -James
Iswald 08-14-06, 10:32 PM	He most likely posted in this forum because he plays living greyhawk and because "normal" D&D doesn't have a level 15 endpoint built into the game. I'm just thinking that the general LG forum would have been better than the LG specific rules forum.