Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alpha_Nerd 02-08-07, 12:49 AM	If I'm a rogue 1/wiz 4/unseen seer 1 do I have 2d6 sneak attack for qualifying for prestige classes?
Maesto 02-08-07, 01:04 AM	No. You need to qualify for the PrC before taking the level in it. See the guide on how to level a character in the PHB at the end of the classes chapter, just before the multiclass part. Sorry mate, you're going to have to take another rogue level, or perhaps take improved initiative and a level in nightsong infiltrator.
Mommy was an Orc 02-08-07, 01:07 AM	Actually, yes, he does. Unseen Seer 1 gives a bonus +1d6 to Rogue's +1d6. So a Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 1/Arcane Trickster X works.
Maesto 02-08-07, 02:14 AM	Sorry, I misread the question... I don't have CM at all; I just assumed it needed 2d6 sneak attack. Cheers, Jolyon
Sieylianna 02-08-07, 07:48 AM	I'm surprised to see Unseen Seer make the cut because it is totally broken in a home game where I'm playing one. Now I'll just have to see how to get there - maybe the free rebuild for my druid. Ed
Mommy was an Orc 02-08-07, 08:08 AM	Britt said they were still contemplating its status when I pointed this out. I think it flew under the Abjurant Champion radar.
Maesto 02-08-07, 08:25 AM	what's wrong with Unseen Seer, just out of interest? I can't quite see why it's particularly broken, although I've only glanced at it.
Mommy was an Orc 02-08-07, 09:39 AM	what's wrong with Unseen Seer, just out of interest? I can't quite see why it's particularly broken, although I've only glanced at it. It is basically a gestalt PrC that's available too quickly and doesn't require 3 levels of caster sacrifice. Scout 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 as an example - it has +5d6 of Skirmish, which is more than a Scout 15...14 caster levels, and with Practiced Spellcaster 15th caster level for all spells. With no feats required for entry and a really amazing skill list, it is one of those 'there's no reason to play Rogue past level 4 and even that's probably too far' PrCs.
Maesto 02-08-07, 05:23 PM	Is it possible to go rogue 1/wiz5/unseen seerx/arcane trickster, only losing a single caster level, but getting large amounts of sneak attack? I know that daggerspell mage got you into AT with only losing 2 caster levels, but at the cost of two feats. If this gets you in only losing one and with no feat requirement, I can see how people have issues with it...
ranagrande 02-08-07, 05:29 PM	Is it possible to go rogue 1/wiz5/unseen seerx/arcane trickster, only losing a single caster level, but getting large amounts of sneak attack? I know that daggerspell mage got you into AT with only losing 2 caster levels, but at the cost of two feats. If this gets you in only losing one and with no feat requirement, I can see how people have issues with it... Yes, it's possible. I think all you need are 56 skill points.
Hariman 02-08-07, 11:55 PM	Ranagrande has it right. If you go for less caster level loss, you lose skill points. You're going to be trading your ability to search and disable device for spellcasting ability. Arguably a worthy tradeoff, but when you just set off a save or die trap you'll feel those lost skill points. Check the wording on Divination Spell Power. ALL of your spells that aren't Divination take a caster level hit if you progress in the class.
Timlagor 02-09-07, 07:59 AM	1) USeer has decent skill points so you don't get very far behind -and it's not the primary skills that you're going to skimp 2) Practiced Spellcaster 3) I'd probably take Wiz5 for the Feat even though it's not necessary.
Maesto 02-09-07, 08:16 AM	Regardless, instead of wiz5/rogue3/AT, builds like wiz5/rog1/US2/AT are possible, I think, as long as your intelligence is high enough. Sure, you give up a couple of skill points and evasion, but you've still got the same sneak attack and full bar one caster level progression.
mowaca 02-09-07, 09:28 AM	As you go up in Unseen Seer levels, your divination caster level goes up +1 every odd level other than 1, while your other spell levels go down -1. I think that's a major trade off for the PrC. * If you were normally a 9th level caster casting 5th level spells, if the Unseen Seer made you cast divination spells as a 11th level caster but other spells as a 7th level caster, I thought that meant you can cast 5th level divination spells but only 4th level and lower other spells, and it only gets worse as you level. A caster who can only cast divination spells and a rogue without evasion or skill mastery isn't broken. I doubt Practiced Spellcaster and Unseen Seer levels were supposed stack - you should apply the practiced spell caster first, then subtract the caster levels so you are not casting as a full caster, as in MwaO's example. I also thought the intention was you lost those caster levels permanently - no way to boost them with feats, but that's not in the text* This +1/-1 mechanic is new and I think probably was poorly thought out with the relationship with caster level boosting things. Perhaps the Circle can clarify this for us. Thanks! * I don't have the book, so this is based on my poor memory.
Mommy was an Orc 02-09-07, 09:54 AM	I doubt Practiced Spellcaster and Unseen Seer levels were supposed stack - you should apply the practiced spell caster first, then subtract the caster levels so you are not casting as a full caster, as in MwaO's example. I also thought the intention was you lost those caster levels permanently - no way to boost them with feats, but that's not in the text The FAQ is quite explicit that you apply Practiced Spellcaster at the point in time most beneficial to you.
Timlagor 02-09-07, 10:16 AM	I can't see anything in the text to suggest that PrSc wouldn't apply to Unseen Seer CL penalties. (NB the FAQ entry about applying in the most beneficial order; cf Wild Mages) If Unseen Seer restricts you to Divinations (and metamagic'd others?) in your highest tier(s) then it certainly loses most of its appeal.
Mommy was an Orc 02-09-07, 10:52 AM	If Unseen Seer restricts you to Divinations (and metamagic'd others?) in your highest tier(s) then it certainly loses most of its appeal. He's referring to caster level - a Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 3 is effectively a 5th level Wizard - except he's only got a caster level of 4 for non-divinations. So according to PHB, he can't cast Fireball. Practiced Spellcaster removes that problem completely.
Nutation 02-09-07, 02:28 PM	The Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning is a distinct oddity. Choose a divination spell from any list (arcane or divine) and add it to your spell list. Just off the top of my head, Commune With Nature is ranger 4 and probably not balanced as a wizard 4 spell.
Britt 02-09-07, 02:35 PM	Ok, I've looked at Unseen Seer (again), and I don't see it as broken. Yes, it is better than Arcane Trickster, but I always thought AT sucked. Leaving aside a comparison to AT, is US really that bad?
Franco Un-American 02-09-07, 02:48 PM	No. You still need to multiclass between a caster and non-caster class, and that's never good. By going more rogue than wizard, you're hurting your spellcasting abilities significantly. By going wizard more than rogue, you lose very useful abilities like evasion, more sneak attack, and a boatload of skill points. That alone is enough to balance the class.
Sieylianna 02-09-07, 02:55 PM	The Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning is a distinct oddity. Choose a divination spell from any list (arcane or divine) and add it to your spell list. Just off the top of my head, Commune With Nature is ranger 4 and probably not balanced as a wizard 4 spell. Allow me to point out that both Golem Strike and Grave Strike are divinations. Ed
Jay_Ibero_911 02-09-07, 03:21 PM	Allow me to point out that both Golem Strike and Grave Strike are divinations. Ed Golem Strike is already a wizard spell. Grave Strike, however, is Cleric/Paladin only normally...excellent choice if you ask me...
Alpha_Nerd 02-09-07, 03:54 PM	Golem Strike is already a wizard spell. Grave Strike, however, is Cleric/Paladin only normally...excellent choice if you ask me... Couldn't you also chose vine strike somewhere in there? Or did I make that spell up?
Munkwunk 02-09-07, 04:06 PM	I'm pretty sure "vine strike" is an actual spell. We already have rogues dipping Wiz1/Clr1 just to get access to these spells, so I don't see why having a class like Unseen Seer where they're getting the spells is that big of a deal. Those spells are too good for any rogue NOT to have. Even if they dont' multiclass, they usually have the cleric cast Imbue With Spell Ability for 2 Grave Strikes per day. What's the problem with Unseen Seer again?
Mommy was an Orc 02-09-07, 05:41 PM	Ok, I've looked at Unseen Seer (again), and I don't see it as broken. Yes, it is better than Arcane Trickster, but I always thought AT sucked. Leaving aside a comparison to AT, is US really that bad? It violates a couple of the unwritten rules of PrC design - namely it is a full advancement PrC available to be entered at 6th level with no feat prereqs, only skills, and almost no caster requirement to get into it. This makes four things happen: It has exceptionally low barriers to entry - this makes it a PrC designed to bypass normal PrC prereqs. Scout 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10. To gain what this character does for one caster level loss is amazing - at several points in time, this character actually does more skirmish damage than a Scout. There's also several classes/PrCs that qualify for this pretty easily - Ranger, Rogue, Scout, Beguiler, Ruathar - that last one is something of a problem. Furthermore, with retraining, you don't even have to cross-class skills all that much. If the build doesn't have to have immediate caster levels, it is a really easy way to advance a build without paying for it. As an example, Rogue 3/Bard 3/Unseen Seer 4/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Trickster 4. Full blown skill monkey with +6d6 Sneak, 7th level spells. No real problems with prereqs as Bard 3 is the last level. Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 6 - +7d6 of sneak, 6th level spells. It breaks the tradition of Gestalt PrCs - every Gestalt PrC up until now has required that you sacrifice 3 levels of a caster class to do this. Abjurant Champion and Unseen Seer do not. A lot of the newer PrCs(that will be NONC by default) will not take this into account. It can pick up all the Grave/Golem/Vine strike spells and pearl 'em back - a Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 6 with Greater Invis and a Bow can do insane amounts of damage. ---- I think it depends on what you think the value of a skill monkey is to a party - I think a character who can legitimately be a near-full blown caster, skill monkey, and party face all at the same time is a wee bit broken as they'll eat up all the non-combat interactions while not really suffering at all in combat.
Maesto 02-09-07, 08:33 PM	I'm more worried about the "dippable" part of this PrC. It's 3rd level when the divination bonus/penalty to everything else kicks in, so I can see a lot of characters taking the first two levels only. If you're a wizard with a rogue level, then you might as well have this PrC, if only for the extra sneakattack, the bonus feat "silent spell", the excellent skills, and the golem strike. Otherwise, I think MWaO sums up the rest of it quite nicely :) Cheers, Jolyon
copper_wyrmling 02-09-07, 08:48 PM	I think I figured out the skills at one point and realized that my sorcerer / shadowcraft mage could quite easily qualify for Unseen Seer after finishing shadowcraft mage (without dipping a rogue level - if there's a sneak attack prereq which I've forgotten, then ignore me). Of course, that was a more enticing option when divine insight was an available choice for the new divination spell, but even now it might be worthwhile, as a full-caster prestige class with lots of skills and some other nifty abilities ;)
pneumatik 02-09-07, 09:52 PM	Mommy was an Orc: This makes four things happen: It has exceptionally low barriers to entry - this makes it a PrC designed to bypass normal PrC prereqs. Scout 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 6. To gain what this character does for one caster level loss is amazing - at several points in time, this character actually does more skirmish damage than a Scout. Me: AT doesn't grant skirmish dice, so this build isn't quite as bad. The build might do more skirmish dice of damage for a short while, but not for the whole build. Mommy was an Orc: There's also several classes/PrCs that qualify for this pretty easily - Ranger, Rogue, Scout, Beguiler, Ruathar - that last one is something of a problem. Furthermore, with retraining, you don't even have to cross-class skills all that much. Me: I've never seen Rauthar become available - and in all seriousness, Rauther is too good for its prereqs. Also, I would think that going into Unseen Seer with no sneak/sudden/skirmish dice would mean that the PClass doesn't give you any bonus damage dice, so Ranger and Beguiler are not great prefixes to UnSeer. Mommy was an Orc: If the build doesn't have to have immediate caster levels, it is a really easy way to advance a build without paying for it. As an example, Rogue 3/Bard 3/Unseen Seer 4/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Trickster 4. Full blown skill monkey with +6d6 Sneak, 7th level spells. No real problems with prereqs as Bard 3 is the last level. Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 6 - +7d6 of sneak, 6th level spells. Me: That's one heck of a build. Taking UnSeer out of it and replacing it with more bard levels doesn't really make the build much weaker - it's Sublime Chord that makes the build awesome at higher levels, IMHO. Mommy was an Orc: It breaks the tradition of Gestalt PrCs - every Gestalt PrC up until now has required that you sacrifice 3 levels of a caster class to do this. Abjurant Champion and Unseen Seer do not. A lot of the newer PrCs(that will be NONC by default) will not take this into account. It can pick up all the Grave/Golem/Vine strike spells and pearl 'em back - a Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 6 with Greater Invis and a Bow can do insane amounts of damage. Me: If you're going Rog3/WizX into AT, Unseen Seer doesn't let you get into AT any faster. Rog3/Wiz2/Unseen Seer4/AT 6 only nets you one extra sneak attack die compared to Rog3/Wiz5/AT7. And going Rog3/Wiz2/Unseen Seer4/AT 6 means you put off the good abilities of AT by a level, and don't get a second use of impromptu sneak attack per day (because you don't reach AT 7.
Mommy was an Orc 02-09-07, 10:20 PM	AT doesn't grant skirmish dice - but the build has Greater Invisibility by that point - cast that, then go to work. That build should have Rogue 1 at the start for AT. I've got one character with Ruathar access twice... Rogue 3/Bard 3/Unseen Seer 4/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Trickster 4 - the extra +2d6 sneak makes a big difference. Especially because the skills of Unseen Seer are the ones that a primary Rogue wants, so you can put them up first. Remember, you're taking Unseen Servant levels, which give a d6 of sneak and 12 skill points instead of 2 Wizard levels with 4 skill points. That's a nice break. Beguiler and Unseen Seer work well together - a Scout 1/Beguiler 7/Unseen Seer 7 Another option is the: Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Unseen Servant 4/Spellsword 1/Arcane Trickster 4 - 6th level spells, +6d6 Sneak, Me: AT doesn't grant skirmish dice, so this build isn't quite as bad. The build might do more skirmish dice of damage for a short while, but not for the whole build. Me: I've never seen Rauthar become available - and in all seriousness, Rauther is too good for its prereqs. Also, I would think that going into Unseen Seer with no sneak/sudden/skirmish dice would mean that the PClass doesn't give you any bonus damage dice, so Ranger and Beguiler are not great prefixes to UnSeer. Mommy was an Orc: If the build doesn't have to have immediate caster levels, it is a really easy way to advance a build without paying for it. As an example, Rogue 3/Bard 3/Unseen Seer 4/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Trickster 4. Full blown skill monkey with +6d6 Sneak, 7th level spells. No real problems with prereqs as Bard 3 is the last level. Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 6 - +7d6 of sneak, 6th level spells. Me: That's one heck of a build. Taking UnSeer out of it and replacing it with more bard levels doesn't really make the build much weaker - it's Sublime Chord that makes the build awesome at higher levels, IMHO. It can pick up all the Grave/Golem/Vine strike spells and pearl 'em back - a Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 6 with Greater Invis and a Bow can do insane amounts of damage. Me: If you're going Rog3/WizX into AT, Unseen Seer doesn't let you get into AT any faster. Rog3/Wiz2/Unseen Seer4/AT 6 only nets you one extra sneak attack die compared to Rog3/Wiz5/AT7. And going Rog3/Wiz2/Unseen Seer4/AT 6 means you put off the good abilities of AT by a level, and don't get a second use of impromptu sneak attack per day (because you don't reach AT 7.
Mommy was an Orc 02-10-07, 04:42 AM	Another extremely powerful Unseen Seer application is the following 4 level dip for Rogues: Beguiler 2/Unseen Seer 2 - it does cost 2 BAB. However, you lose 4 or so skill points, gain the Grave Strike with Unseen Seer 2 and gain a whole bunch of useful spells.
JamesMaissen 02-10-07, 08:17 AM	Another extremely powerful Unseen Seer application is the following 4 level dip for Rogues: Beguiler 2/Unseen Seer 2 - it does cost 2 BAB. However, you lose 4 or so skill points, gain the Grave Strike with Unseen Seer 2 and gain a whole bunch of useful spells. I don't see how this is 'extremely' powerful. You loose 2 BAB, skills, a sneak die, and delay special rogue feats from being a pure rogue. Sure you are multiclassing so there are some benefits. It might even be a nice combination and worthwhile, but I don't see where it's 'extremely' powerful. Personally for grave strike on a Rogue I'd either just get an imbue from a cleric or take a 1 level dip into cleric and pick up 2 domains and access to turning feats. Unseen Seer has some interesting build possibilities, but it doesn't seem to be insane. One of your comments has been the rogue1/wizard4/Unseen Seer 1 into Arcane Trickster... how does that work skillswise? -James
Mommy was an Orc 02-10-07, 08:34 AM	I don't see how this is 'extremely' powerful. You loose 2 BAB, skills, a sneak die, and delay special rogue feats from being a pure rogue. Sure you are multiclassing so there are some benefits. It might even be a nice combination and worthwhile, but I don't see where it's 'extremely' powerful. Except you're not slowing down skill progression, you get Detect Magic(ending the bane of Alarm), Blur, Mirror Image, See Invisibility, Silence, Knock, Spider Climb and you've likely got 7 1st level spells per day - more than enough to Grave Strike the entire day in most mods. And unlike Wizard or Sorcerer, you don't need to pick from your 2nd level spell list(or have just one spell) and you have the UMD score to make CWI work. It isn't that it is overwhelmingly powerful, the problem is that it is so flexible and easy to do that every Rogue with a 14 Int should do it. Unseen Seer has some interesting build possibilities, but it doesn't seem to be insane. One of your comments has been the rogue1/wizard4/Unseen Seer 1 into Arcane Trickster... how does that work skillswise? -James Pretty easily. I prefer Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 2/AT 8 - getting Grave Strike is well worth it and it simplifies everything. Don't forget you can retrain and you can easily be the 18 Int Human with a 14 Dex/Con... The real problem with Unseen Seer is not that it is overwhelmingly powerful, it is that it is so flexible that mechanically, no one should play a Rogue. And as long as you retrain your Disable Device score to max every 4 levels, you don't even have to cross-class...
Timlagor 02-10-07, 09:00 AM	Do you really think that the Feat from Wiz5 isn't worth it?
Mommy was an Orc 02-10-07, 09:14 AM	Do you really think that the Feat from Wiz5 isn't worth it? I don't think so - with the exception of that feat and caster level, Wiz 5 is worthless - no BAB, +s to saves, 2 skill points. Feats are nice. They're not worth that.
JamesMaissen 02-10-07, 09:26 AM	Don't forget you can retrain and you can easily be the 18 Int Human with a 14 Dex/Con... Ah I didn't notice that retraining skills was different than feats in that it allows for combinations that couldn't have been made without it. But I think that there is still use for the rogue. Traps already suffers to the mutt rogue and with beguiler as a viable alternative this will introduce decent competition there. I really don't see Unseen Seers as bad still. It has it's tradeoffs. They are less with retraining, but doesn't seem broken. The same arguements could be made against Barbarian dips for a fighter as Rage, Extra Movement, better skills and Uncanny dodge seem well worth a single feat. And that's just a core class dip. -James
Mommy was an Orc 02-10-07, 11:32 AM	I really don't see Unseen Seers as bad still. It has it's tradeoffs. They are less with retraining, but doesn't seem broken. The same arguements could be made against Barbarian dips for a fighter as Rage, Extra Movement, better skills and Uncanny dodge seem well worth a single feat. And that's just a core class dip. -James Barbarian's a core class. And there's now a pretty decent competitor for that level or two dip in the form of the Knight. Knight 2/Paladin 2 with a 14 Charisma will give a very strong boost to a Fighter build. Unseen Seer's a PrC that redefines pretty much all Rogue builds. Even Melee Rogues benefit greatly from it.
DerekSTheRed 02-11-07, 11:12 AM	The Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning is a distinct oddity. Choose a divination spell from any list (arcane or divine) and add it to your spell list. Just off the top of my head, Commune With Nature is ranger 4 and probably not balanced as a wizard 4 spell. You guys are looking at this from a wizard's perspective. From a rogue's perspective this PrC works very well. Consider Grave Strike (cleric [div] 1) to go along with Golem Strike (wizard [div] 1) or Sniper's Shot (wizard [div] 1) or truestrike (wizard [div] 1). There are many fantastic divination spells for a rogue or anyone with sneak attack. I'm specifically thinking about Golem Strike and Grave Strike. With those two spells the only thing you can't sneak attack are oozes. Since you get advanced learning and silent spell at 2nd (along with an extra d6 sneak at first), you won't have to worry about that whole +1/-1 caster level bit since that starts at 3rd. I can see many a rogue cherry picking this class. It just takes 1 level of wizard so you only lose 1d6 sneak attack and a -1 on your rogue skills. Almost all your class skills are available to Unseen Seers except balance, jump, and tumble. Derek EDIT: I'm a bit too slow on my typing as others have made the same points I have.
awroe 02-11-07, 03:13 PM	You guys are looking at this from a wizard's perspective. From a rogue's perspective this PrC works very well. Consider Grave Strike (cleric [div] 1) to go along with Golem Strike (wizard [div] 1) or Sniper's Shot (wizard [div] 1) or truestrike (wizard [div] 1). There are many fantastic divination spells for a rogue or anyone with sneak attack. I'm specifically thinking about Golem Strike and Grave Strike. With those two spells the only thing you can't sneak attack are oozes. And plants (Vine strike needed for that). Since you get advanced learning and silent spell at 2nd (along with an extra d6 sneak at first), you won't have to worry about that whole +1/-1 caster level bit since that starts at 3rd. I can see many a rogue cherry picking this class. It just takes 1 level of wizard so you only lose 1d6 sneak attack and a -1 on your rogue skills. Almost all your class skills are available to Unseen Seers except balance, jump, and tumble. You are also probably two points of BAB down (one for wizard, one for US 1) if you only take two levels, which for a rogue can be quite important. AW.
Mattastrophic 02-11-07, 07:33 PM	And plants (Vine strike needed for that). And Elementals. My initial reaction to Unseen Seer back when Complete Mage came out was "it's about time!" I actually interpret it's piggyback-into-Trickster quality as being intentional on the writers' part, because, as Britt said, Arcane Trickster is weak. And Advanced Learning at 2nd really helps a Rogue be able to overcome its disadvantages in the "I can't sneak this" department. -Matt