Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shuntsbe 02-02-06, 05:31 PM	I was wondering if we could get items such as Vest of Resistance added to the standard items list. One can only upgrade items on that list, such as Cloak of Resistance. Vests cannot be upgraded. (see LCGS draft p. 56, paragraph in the lower-left hand corner)
Britt 02-02-06, 05:44 PM	That's probably intentional. Vests of resistance are too good already. I know I sold a +3 to buy a +4, then not too long later, sold the +4 to buy a +5.
Moryath 02-02-06, 05:58 PM	That's probably intentional. Vests of resistance are too good already. I know I sold a +3 to buy a +4, then not too long later, sold the +4 to buy a +5. Vests of resistance are NOT "too good." They're a necessary addition to a ridiculously broken item system where 8-9 items are all fighting over a character's cloak slot and another 4-5 are fighting over the neck slot, while the head slot and ring slots are almost never used. I agree with the former poster. PLEASE include Vests of Resistance in the upgrade table.
garyjohnson 02-02-06, 06:17 PM	That's probably intentional. Vests of resistance are too good already. I know I sold a +3 to buy a +4, then not too long later, sold the +4 to buy a +5. How is a vest of resistance "too good already" when (presumably) a cloak of resistance isn't? Cheers, Gary Johnson
Britt 02-02-06, 06:29 PM	This is an argument about balancing magic items, body slots, and having to make decisions about which items to use. As such, it doesn't really belong here, so sorry I made the original statement. It is my opinion that they are too good, but you are more than welcome to have an opposite opinion. If you want to debate it offlist, feel free to email me. Sorry for sidetracking the list.
Moryath 02-02-06, 06:36 PM	This is an argument about balancing magic items, body slots, and having to make decisions about which items to use. As such, it doesn't really belong here, so sorry I made the original statement. It is my opinion that they are too good, but you are more than welcome to have an opposite opinion. If you want to debate it offlist, feel free to email me. Sorry for sidetracking the list. Well given that this is LGCS feedback and we're asking to have Vest of Resistance added to a portion of the LGCS, no, I think this thread is a perfect place for it. Stop hiding behind "take it off list" and have the discussions in the open, please.
Britt 02-02-06, 06:47 PM	Stop hiding behind "take it off list" and have the discussions in the open, please. Snip The debate about whether vests of resistance are "too good" really doesn't matter for whether they are listed as upgradeable until the Circle says that's why they aren't there. I was speculating that they probably aren't there intentionally for that reason, but there are many other possible reasons why they aren't there. Maybe they aren't there because the Circle doesn't like putting non-core items on the list. Maybe the Circle doesn't like items beginning with the letter 'v.' In any case, until the Circle says why, debate about side topics is pointless and shouldn't clutter this list. If you want to debate it with me, I'll freely do so offlist and you can send it to whomever you wish.
Moryath 02-02-06, 07:02 PM	Snip [quote]It seems like every post I see you make is offensive. If you want to confuse offensiveness with straight honesty, that's your prerogative. I prefer having discussions in the open, where others are able to join in. The debate about whether vests of resistance are "too good" really doesn't matter for whether they are listed as upgradeable until the Circle says that's why they aren't there. I was speculating that they probably aren't there intentionally for that reason, but there are many other possible reasons why they aren't there. Maybe they aren't there because the Circle doesn't like putting non-core items on the list. Maybe the Circle doesn't like items beginning with the letter 'v.' In any case, until the Circle says why, debate about side topics is pointless and shouldn't clutter this list. If you want to debate it with me, I'll freely do so offlist and you can send it to whomever you wish. Well, THESE boards are where the discussions of the LGCS are supposed to go on (supposedly) just like WotC has decreed that their little BBS system is where all "official" LG chatter is supposed to go. BUT, since nobody from the Circle has graced us with their reasoning yet, we're stuck in the dark trying to figure it out. YOU were the one who made the claim that the Vest of Resistance is somehow "too good", so I want to know why. If that's not why the Circle left it off the upgradable list, fair enough. If they hand out a perfectly sensible reason, I'll be satisfied. But being told to discuss everything in private galls me.
Britt 02-02-06, 07:09 PM	Instead of: Stop hiding behind "take it off list" and have the discussions in the open, please. You could have said something like "I think the issue is quite pertinent to the LGCS discussion and would rather discuss it here," which would accomplish the exact same thing without an oh-so-subtle implication that the original statement had no backing and the desire to take it off-list was just an attempt to avoid showing that I had no supportive argument. That represents the difference between offensiveness and straight honesty. I am not refusing to discuss the point in public; start a thread in a place where the topic is pertinent and I will gladly discuss it with you there. The argument doesn't impact the LGCS, IMO. Similarly, I think this tangential debate also does not impact the LGCS and should not be taking place here. Accordingly, I'm done with this thread unless I see something LGCS related. If you start a thread somewhere else, be sure to let me know so I can debate with you there.
garyjohnson 02-02-06, 08:29 PM	This is an argument about balancing magic items, body slots, and having to make decisions about which items to use. Hi, Britt. Thanks for clarifying where you're coming from. I agree that deciding which items to use in which body slots is an important part of character design and balance, but I don't think the rule in the LGCS contributes towards those design and balance issues. The decisions to give access through an AR and that the character will craft a vest have already been made, and the upgrade rule doesn't restrict those decisions in any way. All the upgrade rule does (as an example) is make a character with Craft Wondrous Item going from a +2 to +3 vest spend an extra 160 XP (200XP to upgrade versus 360 XP to create from scratch) and an extra TU (1 TU to upgrade versus 2 TU to create from scratch): it costs no extra GP to create from scratch if you sell the old vest. In other words, it's extra accounting, as opposed to a meaningful limitation on a crafting character. As it's accounting you don't have to do if you have a cloak, it seems onerous and unnecessary to me and others: naturally, YMMV. It seems to me that the rule as written simply lists DMG magic items, presumably because the list hasn't been changed for several years. I expect the list hasn't been changed because of inertia: let's see if someone from the Circle drops in and confirms that leaving vests of resistance out of this list in the past has been a deliberate policy choice, and why. Cheers, Gary Johnson
Bob_the_Theurge 02-02-06, 08:54 PM	Hi, I have no idea whether we'll see Circle in here or not when thinking about the list last year, but I might as well weigh in; I think that vests not being upgradable is unfortunate. Looking back at characters, the Vest is more a concession to a not 100% balanced item slots system than anything else. Take a few character classes for some examples: Fighter - prime requisites Fort, Dex, Str. No problem: Gloves of Dex, Belt of Strength, Amulet of Health, and then Cloak of Resistance. Same for Barbarian. Cleric - Okay, slight problem. Cloak of Charisma can conflict with Cloak of Resistance if you're a Turning build, neck slot has competition between Amulet of Health and Periapt of Wisdom. Less problem, but still the neck slot, for Druid. Wizard - No problem. Gloves of Dex, Amulet of Health, Headband of Intellect, Cloak of Resistance. Sorceror - Oops. Prime stat is Charisma. Collision. Rogue - Depending on your build, possible collision (face Rogue, for instance). Now, in LG, saving throws are nasty. Encounters tend to be 1 or 2 monsters of EL + something, meaning the saving throws need all the help they can get. Plus, there are the various other cloaks to consider, as the designers at Wizards did seem to love creating cloaks of this, that, and the other thing. The compromise? A "vest" that sits on your chest. Not a bad move, and the only way many classes are ever going to see the benefits of a resistance-boosting item since Permanence isn't available. Now, as I understand the reasoning given in the LGCS 4.2 beforehand, only standard DMG items are allowed to be upgradable. So the real question is whether that should be changed to allow for items that fix this bad pattern of slot usage, and I think it should.
NetJohn 02-02-06, 09:37 PM	You forgot Bard and Marshal, which also have Cha as a prime. And yes, there are a ton of cloaks, and a ton of neck-slot items. Part of the game is about decisions. I'd be up for allowing vests to be upgradable via MIC. Seems almost every other +1/+2/+3 item is.
shuntsbe 02-02-06, 10:38 PM	Note that LGCS lists "Stat Boost Item +2 or +4" as upgradable, which includes Belts of Health and other alternate-slot items. It would be nice to change the listing of "Cloak of Resistance +X" to "Resistance Item +X" instead. This could work for "Deflection Item +X" and other similar items, as long as they are "standard". Combo items such as Robes of the Archmagi are not upgradable.
WizO_Shadow 02-02-06, 11:55 PM	::hands everyone some hot tea and a nice comfy chair to sit in:: Let's all please remember that we're here for one thing: the fun of gaming. Play nice, post nice. Thank you. WizO_Shadow
Mad Monkey 02-03-06, 08:24 AM	I thought you could only craft wondrous items from specific tables in the DMG, as mentioned in the LGCS (page 54). Upgrading an item follows the rules of creating. You normally can't craft or upgrade an item that is not in the DMG. It does mentions that campaign documentation can allow a crafter to craft items from another source, but I don't think normal adventure access is good enough for that. The upgrades are standard DMG only items and I think exceptions for non-DMG items is not needed. If I'm wrong about the crafting rules, then I don't really see a problem, because you can always sell your old vest and craft a new one. If you crafted the old one, you don't lose any money, you just have an extra step of first selling the old vest.
DuctShuiTengu 02-03-06, 11:37 AM	Okay, slightly OT, and I appologize for this, but... I thought Vests of Resistance were taken out of the campaign along with all the other material from the old builder books? Or have they been reprinted somewhere that I don't know about since Tome and Blood?
Moryath 02-03-06, 11:39 AM	Okay, slightly OT, and I appologize for this, but... I thought Vests of Resistance were taken out of the campaign along with all the other material from the old builder books? Or have they been reprinted somewhere that I don't know about since Tome and Blood? They show up all the time. Including this past year's core modules. Why? Because everybody needs them.
Drezden 02-03-06, 12:03 PM	You can use Craft Wondrous to create anything you have ever had access to - including items from the Complete books or even unique items (as long as they are craftable) as long as you meet the pre-reqs. Daren I thought you could only craft wondrous items from specific tables in the DMG, as mentioned in the LGCS (page 54). Upgrading an item follows the rules of creating. You normally can't craft or upgrade an item that is not in the DMG. It does mentions that campaign documentation can allow a crafter to craft items from another source, but I don't think normal adventure access is good enough for that. The upgrades are standard DMG only items and I think exceptions for non-DMG items is not needed. If I'm wrong about the crafting rules, then I don't really see a problem, because you can always sell your old vest and craft a new one. If you crafted the old one, you don't lose any money, you just have an extra step of first selling the old vest.
Elfen_Archangel 02-03-06, 12:11 PM	You can use Craft Wondrous to create anything you have ever had access to - including items from the Complete books or even unique items (as long as they are craftable) as long as you meet the pre-reqs. Daren Would you mind posting where you got this information from? Because everything I know about crafting says that this isn't the case. You have to have access at the time you craft to craft the wondrous item, and you're only allowed to craft items from the tables 7-18, 7-19, 7-25, 7-26, 7-27, 7-28, and 7-29. If you don't have access your caster level can be 2 levels higher than the required caster level. But nowhere does it say you can craft it if you once had access to it. Or that you can craft things outside of the DMG and those tables. Matthew Schad
Moryath 02-03-06, 12:14 PM	Page 55: An item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional, or core is a valid purchase source for magic item creation. This rule applies only to creation not purchasing items. There you go.
RanielK 02-03-06, 12:18 PM	Okay, slightly OT, and I appologize for this, but... I thought Vests of Resistance were taken out of the campaign along with all the other material from the old builder books? Or have they been reprinted somewhere that I don't know about since Tome and Blood? Complete Arcane reintroduced them as they are a very useful (some might say necessary) item for casters of all types. As far as crafting is concerned, one is allowed to craft anything one has seen as access on a mod. The rationale is that the caster inspected the item before the party sold it off. To whit, pg 54 of LGCS 5.0 draft states: "Casters able to purchase items valued over 2500 gp from approved sources may create those items once the prerequisites are satisfied." Miles
Elfen_Archangel 02-03-06, 12:19 PM	That's under "Some Nuts and Bolts". The first sentence in that section says "Now you know what you can create. Let's get into the nitty-gritty of actually calculating the cost." It's already been defined that you can't craft outside of the DMG. Now inside the DMG on those lists, you can only craft those things that have access any, adventure, regional, meta-regional, and core without being 2 caster levels over the minimum required. Matthew Schad
Moryath 02-03-06, 12:20 PM	Complete Arcane reintroduced them as they are a very useful (some might say necessary) item for casters of all types. Not just for casters. Charisma-based casters, for sure, are screwed by the fact that the Cloak of Charisma eats the Cloak slot and Cloak of Resistance can't be used. But there are plenty of other cloaks out there as well. It's a necessary item in the campaign, because it fixes WotC's pathetically broken slot-system.
wagnert 02-03-06, 12:29 PM	Would you mind posting where you got this information from? Because everything I know about crafting says that this isn't the case. You have to have access at the time you craft to craft the wondrous item, and you're only allowed to craft items from the tables 7-18, 7-19, 7-25, 7-26, 7-27, 7-28, and 7-29. If you don't have access your caster level can be 2 levels higher than the required caster level. But nowhere does it say you can craft it if you once had access to it. Or that you can craft things outside of the DMG and those tables. Matthew Schad In the draft LGCS, page 54, column 2 "Casters with campaign documentation allowing the creation of an item may create that item once the prerequisites are satisfied." Page 55, column 2 "An item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional, or core is a valid purchase source for magic item creation. This rule applies only to creation not purchasing items." Admittedly, the first quote refers to "allowing the creation" but the second quote refers to "purchase source" and implies that the terms are equivalent. I suggest modifying the first quote by changing "creation" to "purchase", thus making it clear that purchase access does give creation access.
Reylance 02-03-06, 01:32 PM	I agree that Vests of Resistance should be freely upgradeable. I have a fighter-wizard who uses a Vest and a Cloak of Displacement. I have a fighter type who wears a Vest, as he will soon have Divine Grace and could wear a Cloak of Charisma. There are many characters who can use a Vest.
The_Voice_Of_Reason 02-03-06, 02:39 PM	The Vest of Resistance is every bit as much of a staple to the game as the +1 weapon, or the wand of CLW. Treating like its somehow non-standard is just silly. Allowing Vest-Upgrades is simpler. Allowing Vest-Upgrades is less-accounting-intensive. Allowing Vest-Upgrades is more intune with the truth of it as a stapel of magic items. :-D
Mad Monkey 02-03-06, 04:19 PM	In the draft LGCS, page 54, column 2 "Casters with campaign documentation allowing the creation of an item may create that item once the prerequisites are satisfied." Page 55, column 2 "An item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional, or core is a valid purchase source for magic item creation. This rule applies only to creation not purchasing items." Admittedly, the first quote refers to "allowing the creation" but the second quote refers to "purchase source" and implies that the terms are equivalent. I suggest modifying the first quote by changing "creation" to "purchase", thus making it clear that purchase access does give creation access. The rule that mentions the purchase source is: "Casters able to purchase items valued over 2,500 gp from approved sources may create those items once the prerequisites are satisfied" (LGCS draft page 54, column 2). I would say this rule, and the one you mentioned, refer to crafting items from the allowed DMG tables and not other sources. For me it is not clear if adventure access (as in frequency adventure, core, etc.) is enough documentation to satisfy the rule of "Campaign documentation may provide an item creator with the opportunity to create items from other sources". I have always taken the safe side with my wizard and have crafted only items from the DMG. Some extra clarification would be welcome in the LGCS.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-03-06, 06:14 PM	The rule that mentions the purchase source is: "Casters able to purchase items valued over 2,500 gp from approved sources may create those items once the prerequisites are satisfied" (LGCS draft page 54, column 2). I would say this rule, and the one you mentioned, refer to crafting items from the allowed DMG tables and not other sources. For me it is not clear if adventure access (as in frequency adventure, core, etc.) is enough documentation to satisfy the rule of "Campaign documentation may provide an item creator with the opportunity to create items from other sources". I have always taken the safe side with my wizard and have crafted only items from the DMG. Some extra clarification would be welcome in the LGCS. The key wording there is "from approved sources." The LGCS has a list of approved sources for the campaign. The Complete Arcane, where the Vest of Resistance is located, is clearly on that list. Further, I put your eyes to two more key phrases: 1 - "able to purchase items valued over 2,500 gp from approved sources" 2 - "An item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional, or core is a valid purchase source for magic item creation." It doesn't seem ambiguous to me at all. If you have access to it with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional, or core and it's on the LGCS approved sources list (right at the beginning of chapter 5) and you meet the other requirements to craft it, you can craft it.
Elfen_Archangel 02-03-06, 06:25 PM	The key wording there is "from approved sources." The LGCS has a list of approved sources for the campaign. The Complete Arcane, where the Vest of Resistance is located, is clearly on that list. Further, I put your eyes to two more key phrases: 1 - "able to purchase items valued over 2,500 gp from approved sources" 2 - "An item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional, or core is a valid purchase source for magic item creation." It doesn't seem ambiguous to me at all. If you have access to it with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional, or core and it's on the LGCS approved sources list (right at the beginning of chapter 5) and you meet the other requirements to craft it, you can craft it. Except that the part from which you're quoting is in the "Some Nuts and Bolts" section that says "Now you know what you can create. Let's get into the nitty-gritty of actually calculating the cost." What is not ambiguous to me at all is that "Now you know what you can create." means that the previous section detailed what you can and cannot create. It is further clarified that on top of only being from the DMG and on those tables, you have to have an access of any, adventure, regional, meta-regional, or core to craft it without having to be two levels higher. But the text you're referring to does not overide the original text that says "Characters with these feats can create items from the DMG Tables 7-18, 7-19, 7-25, 7-26, 7-27, 7-28, and 7-29 using the following rules." Matthew Schad
Drezden 02-03-06, 06:50 PM	The LGCS is very clear - you can create an item (from an approved source) that you have had previous access to purchase. Now, if you choose to use twisted reading to ignore the clear text and impose additional restrictions on item creation - well have fun. You limit your item creation to the DMG - I will be quite happy creating my Complete items and other items that I have encountered on ARs. Daren Except that the part from which you're quoting is in the "Some Nuts and Bolts" section that says "Now you know what you can create. Let's get into the nitty-gritty of actually calculating the cost." What is not ambiguous to me at all is that "Now you know what you can create." means that the previous section detailed what you can and cannot create. It is further clarified that on top of only being from the DMG and on those tables, you have to have an access of any, adventure, regional, meta-regional, or core to craft it without having to be two levels higher. But the text you're referring to does not overide the original text that says "Characters with these feats can create items from the DMG Tables 7-18, 7-19, 7-25, 7-26, 7-27, 7-28, and 7-29 using the following rules." Matthew Schad
Timlagor 02-06-06, 07:58 AM	never mind
Ballaratgreg 02-08-06, 09:50 AM	Hi All I agree that Vest's should be upgradeable, it makes no sense that they shouldn't. As to how the item is broken, in the DMG on page 288 under 'Body Slot Affinities' it states that an item giving a bonus NOT associated with that body slot should cost double. The Vest Slot is supposed to be for Class Abilities, while the Cloak is for protection. Getting the Vest for the same price as the Cloak is broken because you are effectively getting it at half price! While I can see that the Vest of Resistance was created incorrectly and has already been introduced into the campaign, the restrictions on upgrading it may be an effort by the Circle to ameliate the problem. Then again, it may simply be that nobody has addressed it yet :-) Cheers Greg
Simpi 02-08-06, 10:23 AM	It's a necessary item in the campaign, because it fixes WotC's pathetically broken slot-system. Broken? How? By not allowing PCs or monsters to walk around with 10 Ring of Protections on their fingers and boost their power to ridiculous levels? S.H, the guy from Naerie
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-06, 10:44 AM	Broken? How? By not allowing PCs or monsters to walk around with 10 Ring of Protections on their fingers and boost their power to ridiculous levels? S.H, the guy from Naerie I believe the other poster was speaking of the competition between slots, which disadvantages certain classes. Strength upgrades have the Glove slot, or the Belt slot. Dexterity upgrades have the Glove slot. Constitution upgrades use the neck slot. Wisdom upgrades use the neck slot. Intelligence upgrades use the head slot. Charisma upgrades use the Cloak slot. Saving throw upgrades use the Cloak slot. A fighter has no problem - Gloves of Dex, Belt of Strength, Cloak of Resistance, Amulet of Constitution and they are set. Clerics have issues - in order to raise their Wisdom score, they forego the possibility of the constitution raise. Charisma-based casters (Warmages, Favored Souls, and Sorcerors) are the worst off, because they can't wear a Cloak of Resistance at all. And of course this is ignoring the large number of other cloaks which players would like to have, and which (due to LG's being a very low-money campaign) are more affordable than any of the major Rings. The only rings I've ever seen in the campaign being used are Rings of Spell Storing, Rings of Counterspell, and Rings of Protection but since you get TWO ring slots, it's not ever a problem. Given this, the Vest of Resistance is a happy discovery, and I'd say yes it was most likely WotC's designers recognizing that their choice of locations for various stat bump items favored melee classes over caster classes too heavily. I vote that it be included in the list of upgradable items.
Simpi 02-08-06, 11:05 AM	Clerics have issues - in order to raise their Wisdom score, they forego the possibility of the constitution raise. I really don't see a problem here or with other issues raised. Just for the record, I play melee cleric so by this logic I should be completely handicapped by not being able to raise my toughness. I am not. S.H, the guy from Naerie
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-06, 12:12 PM	I really don't see a problem here or with other issues raised. Just for the record, I play melee cleric so by this logic I should be completely handicapped by not being able to raise my toughness. I am not. S.H, the guy from Naerie But you self-buff, you don't rely on getting your save DC's up to reasonable numbers. There's a difference.
Drayen 02-08-06, 12:18 PM	You forgot Bard and Marshal, which also have Cha as a prime. And yes, there are a ton of cloaks, and a ton of neck-slot items. Part of the game is about decisions. Let's not forget the Paladin, Warmage and Hexblade are also CHA characters. The Swashbuckler can also be a CHA character for the same reasons as the "face" Rogue.
Simpi 02-08-06, 12:49 PM	But you self-buff, you don't rely on getting your save DC's up to reasonable numbers. There's a difference. Provided I have time to buff myself up. Applying your logic we could say that why would Warmage need higher DC for spells when he can just use magic msssiles or other spells which don't rely on failed saves to do damage. S.H, the guy from Naerie