upkeep and rations [Archive] - Wizards Community

upkeep and rations [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LGMoses
11-22-06, 01:49 AM You pay upkeep to refill healers kits, spell component pouches, and etc. What does paying upkeep do for the number of rations you carry? I always carry a days worth of rations on me. Does upkeep replace this?

How does upkeep affect rations?
Lupo
11-22-06, 04:41 AM You pay upkeep to refill healers kits, spell component pouches, and etc. What does paying upkeep do for the number of rations you carry? I always carry a days worth of rations on me. Does upkeep replace this?

How does upkeep affect rations?

actually not at all ;)

it is one of those thingies authors and dms use to make the live harder for low level characters :eek: .

there are some modules that have "long journey through non-civilized or even not-live-supportive area". most of these tell this in advance so even low characters have no problem APART from carrying hundreds of pounds of food and water AND have to pay around 10 gp extra per week of travel.

the moment a druid can make survival DC 20 automatically, the party's cleric can cast "create food and water" or even better "hero's feast" or several characters have portable holes, handy haversacks, bags of holding etc. this "environmental challenge" goes *POOOF*.

some modules even make casting of zillions of "endure elements" spell mandatory, something any caster with some pearls of power 1st is fine with, while charcters below level 5 are definitely hit hard by this, either taking away a high percentage of available spell slots or having to face penalties for exessive heat or cold.

i am no fan of this kind of "impact of reality" into a module, unless there is a realy good reason for it or compensation for the low level characters.

and handing out ONE scroll of "endure elements" per character for a fourthnigh's journey into the heat of the bright desert is just pathetic :rolleyes:.

ciao

martin m.
_m_
11-22-06, 10:55 PM actually not at all ;)

it is one of those thingies authors and dms use to make the live harder for low level characters :eek: .

there are some modules that have "long journey through non-civilized or even not-live-supportive area". most of these tell this in advance so even low characters have no problem APART from carrying hundreds of pounds of food and water AND have to pay around 10 gp extra per week of travel.

the moment a druid can make survival DC 20 automatically, the party's cleric can cast "create food and water" or even better "hero's feast" or several characters have portable holes, handy haversacks, bags of holding etc. this "environmental challenge" goes *POOOF*.

some modules even make casting of zillions of "endure elements" spell mandatory, something any caster with some pearls of power 1st is fine with, while charcters below level 5 are definitely hit hard by this, either taking away a high percentage of available spell slots or having to face penalties for exessive heat or cold.

i am no fan of this kind of "impact of reality" into a module, unless there is a realy good reason for it or compensation for the low level characters.

and handing out ONE scroll of "endure elements" per character for a fourthnigh's journey into the heat of the bright desert is just pathetic :rolleyes:.

ciao

martin m.

theres a discusison going on about this in another thread atm. whilst i agree, at can be a pain having environmental effects, dont you think the game looses something if you ignore thm?

i mean, how are u going to rp / enjoy / be immersed in being in a desert if you didnt even have to say you bought extra water?
clannagh
11-22-06, 11:33 PM actually not at all ;)

it is one of those thingies authors and dms use to make the live harder for low level characters :eek: .

there are some modules that have "long journey through non-civilized or even not-live-supportive area". most of these tell this in advance so even low characters have no problem APART from carrying hundreds of pounds of food and water AND have to pay around 10 gp extra per week of travel.

the moment a druid can make survival DC 20 automatically, the party's cleric can cast "create food and water" or even better "hero's feast" or several characters have portable holes, handy haversacks, bags of holding etc. this "environmental challenge" goes *POOOF*.

some modules even make casting of zillions of "endure elements" spell mandatory, something any caster with some pearls of power 1st is fine with, while charcters below level 5 are definitely hit hard by this, either taking away a high percentage of available spell slots or having to face penalties for exessive heat or cold.

i am no fan of this kind of "impact of reality" into a module, unless there is a realy good reason for it or compensation for the low level characters.

and handing out ONE scroll of "endure elements" per character for a fourthnigh's journey into the heat of the bright desert is just pathetic :rolleyes:.

ciao

martin m.

if you refer to bright sands most DM's seem to go the other way and thro in an offhand comment like "I assume you guys have the right stuff for the desert and enough water".

This really annoys me when I have a Bright Sands character with sandskimmer heat endurance and a stack of expensive desert gear which the first mod implied you would need but in fact was totally unnecesary.

on the original question .. my undersanding was upkeep paid for normal day to day food and accomadation (which I take to include rations) and replace standard arrows but NOT unusually expensive accomodation or supplies. It iseems to be meant to simplify keeping track of trivial items so it would be silly to not include standard trail rations.
Lupo
11-23-06, 01:26 AM theres a discusison going on about this in another thread atm. whilst i agree, at can be a pain having environmental effects, dont you think the game looses something if you ignore thm?

i mean, how are u going to rp / enjoy / be immersed in being in a desert if you didnt even have to say you bought extra water?

i have nothing against "regional environmental challenges".

but beyond APL 6 there is little impact of high or low temperature, as the party casters can maintain "endure elements" or even things like "water breathing" and "water walking" up for at least 8 hours per day for every party member with ease WITHOUT straining their spell slots too much whereas at APL 2 or APL 4 a caster has to INVEST nearly all his spell slots into this, making him unable to do much else.
i have played bright desert modules where 4 characters out of 6 needed "endure elements" with a party composed mostly of level 1 and 2 characters, so the wiz AND the cleric were left with one or two first level spell slot that wasn't consumed for "endure elements".

if one tries to do it with scrolls, the amount of money would have consumed nearly every gp one gets.

so it is ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY hurting characters of level 1 to 3, after this the effect decreases rapidly, considering the one or another pearl of power.

the problematic part is that there was no compensation for the low level characters.

if there is an environmental challange, it should be at least somehow fair spread over all APLs and character levels.

ciao

martin m.
Frumpkis
11-23-06, 03:21 AM But that's part of the journey of being an adventurer. As you gain experience, you become more powerful and gain tools/powers/abilities/etc to better help you deal with dangers & obstacles. Things that used to be difficult & deadly slowly become less problematic as you grow in experience and power.

If higher-level PCs are better able to overcome environmental hazards, good for them. They've worked hard to get there.
Lupo
11-23-06, 04:07 AM But that's part of the journey of being an adventurer. As you gain experience, you become more powerful and gain tools/powers/abilities/etc to better help you deal with dangers & obstacles. Things that used to be difficult & deadly slowly become less problematic as you grow in experience and power.

If higher-level PCs are better able to overcome environmental hazards, good for them. They've worked hard to get there.

the idea behind the APL system is that the challenge scales with levels, isn't it?

it can be worked out fine with single environmental challenges like storms, making them stronger at higher APLs but for general environmental challenges it tends to take away 90% of the power of 1st and 2nd level spellcasters when they have to provide the rest of the party with endure elements for a journey of a fourthnight.

ciao

martin m.
LGMoses
11-23-06, 12:09 PM the idea behind the APL system is that the challenge scales with levels, isn't it?
martin m.

Yes, the desert knows you are on your way and it IS PREPARED FOR YOU :evillaugh:

I don't think scaling environmental challenges is a good idea. It would be like taking away a power a character has earned. Besides, the desert can't prepare for high level adventurers! "There they are, I'm going to be REALLY hot today." About the most you could do is throw more monsters at them. Anything else is going to affect verisimilitude.
SgtHulka
11-23-06, 12:50 PM Yes, the desert knows you are on your way and it IS PREPARED FOR YOU :evillaugh:

I don't think scaling environmental challenges is a good idea. It would be like taking away a power a character has earned. Besides, the desert can't prepare for high level adventurers! "There they are, I'm going to be REALLY hot today." About the most you could do is throw more monsters at them. Anything else is going to affect verisimilitude.

I'm not sure I agree. High level tables could run into a blizzard if the environment if Frostburn, a hurricane if the environment is Stormwrack, or a sandstorm if the environment is Sandstorm. Each of those sources has less mundane horrific environmental challenges as well. Low-level parties could have the eye of the various storms "just miss them". For these parties, the extreme environment is dangerous enough without the added complication of natural or magical storms.

How would this effect versimilitude any more than "At APL 8 the dragon's been alive for hundred of years but at APL 2 it was born yesterday"?
_m_
11-23-06, 06:05 PM also:

if having environmental effects is punishing level 1 to 3's, isnt NOT having the effects equally as punishing to the brightsands character with 1500 gp of desert gear, heat resistance, an endless bottle of warter and sandskimmer?

i mean technically, magic imune monsters are unfair for spellcasters. does that mean they should be removed if im a wizard?

sure, the effects may hurt, but its not reasonable to remove them because of it.
clannagh
11-23-06, 08:16 PM firstly the point in bright sands gear is to avoid needing endure elements .. realistically role play wise ... low level characters from other regions than bright sands maybe should not be there at all

regardless ... i dont see the problem with endure elements proving there is a caster around that can cast from scrolls

lets assume a party pf 4 only has a level one caster that can cast it twice and also assume all 4 players get a free scroll from karistyne

generally bright sands travel is of the "you leave .. you get there five days later" type .. on these days the caster needs two scrolls to make up the difference

the free scrolls cover the first two days

so the five day journey costs the non casters 3 days * 2 scrolls * 25gc is 150 gc or 50 gc each for the journey.

even if the journey was 10 days and you needed 10 scrolls that still only equals 250 gc to take part in a mod that generally willhave better than average AR access .. good value I would say
DuctShuiTengu
11-23-06, 09:47 PM Yes, the desert knows you are on your way and it IS PREPARED FOR YOU :evillaugh:

I don't think scaling environmental challenges is a good idea. It would be like taking away a power a character has earned. Besides, the desert can't prepare for high level adventurers! "There they are, I'm going to be REALLY hot today." About the most you could do is throw more monsters at them. Anything else is going to affect verisimilitude.

I've run into this sort of stuff a way too many times before with my Ranger. So many mods it rained the night before I had to track something just because we were at one of the higher APLs it was available at. Eqyaron (completely tangental: why can no-one I play with pronounce that name?) hates stupid rain gods. Almost as bad as Vecna.
LGMoses
11-24-06, 12:51 AM Forgive me, I'm kind of new to Greyhawk. Isn't Vecna dead?
The_Jester
11-24-06, 02:23 AM While I'm not fond of elemental effects (punish the lower level tables who don't have much cash to spare for the basics let alone rare and expensive equipment for one out of every 10 mods while ignoring the high levels who do have the spare cash...) they're a part of life.

But isn't lifestyle and upkeep supposed to pay for food? Isn't that the point of the general broad payment per TU to roughly cover small things for bookkeepings sake so one doesn't have to pay for mundane things like regular arrows, bits of fleece and fat, meals and inns?
I mean, if not why would a warrior who doesn't use arrows or spell commonents sacrafice at least 12 gold each and every mod?
The_Jester
11-24-06, 02:30 AM From the LG Campaign Standards
This expense is the adventurer standard. Spending this gold allows characters to spend time in warm beds, eat hearty meals, travel in relative comfort (for adventurers), replenish rations, mend clothing and equipment, refill healing kits, restock up to twenty normal arrows and bolts (found on Table 7-5: Weapons of the PH), and properly heal between adventures.

Emphasis added.

How you carry all that weight is questionable but it appears food is just auto-payed for by lifestyle.
LGMoses
11-24-06, 07:51 AM ok, so it DOES restock the amount of rations you bought to carry with you.
SgtHulka
11-24-06, 09:53 AM ok, so it DOES restock the amount of rations you bought to carry with you.

Yeah, that's how I play it. If you're caught on the road you've got the rations you've payed for and written down on your character sheet. However, once you've consumed those rations, you don't have to pay for re-supplying them at the end of the mod because upkeep does it for you. Kind of like arrows and healing kits.

I'm not sure if that's technically the legal way of doing it though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 11-22-06, 01:49 AM	You pay upkeep to refill healers kits, spell component pouches, and etc. What does paying upkeep do for the number of rations you carry? I always carry a days worth of rations on me. Does upkeep replace this? How does upkeep affect rations?
Lupo 11-22-06, 04:41 AM	You pay upkeep to refill healers kits, spell component pouches, and etc. What does paying upkeep do for the number of rations you carry? I always carry a days worth of rations on me. Does upkeep replace this? How does upkeep affect rations? actually not at all ;) it is one of those thingies authors and dms use to make the live harder for low level characters :eek: . there are some modules that have "long journey through non-civilized or even not-live-supportive area". most of these tell this in advance so even low characters have no problem APART from carrying hundreds of pounds of food and water AND have to pay around 10 gp extra per week of travel. the moment a druid can make survival DC 20 automatically, the party's cleric can cast "create food and water" or even better "hero's feast" or several characters have portable holes, handy haversacks, bags of holding etc. this "environmental challenge" goes POOOF. some modules even make casting of zillions of "endure elements" spell mandatory, something any caster with some pearls of power 1st is fine with, while charcters below level 5 are definitely hit hard by this, either taking away a high percentage of available spell slots or having to face penalties for exessive heat or cold. i am no fan of this kind of "impact of reality" into a module, unless there is a realy good reason for it or compensation for the low level characters. and handing out ONE scroll of "endure elements" per character for a fourthnigh's journey into the heat of the bright desert is just pathetic :rolleyes:. ciao martin m.
_m_ 11-22-06, 10:55 PM	actually not at all ;) it is one of those thingies authors and dms use to make the live harder for low level characters :eek: . there are some modules that have "long journey through non-civilized or even not-live-supportive area". most of these tell this in advance so even low characters have no problem APART from carrying hundreds of pounds of food and water AND have to pay around 10 gp extra per week of travel. the moment a druid can make survival DC 20 automatically, the party's cleric can cast "create food and water" or even better "hero's feast" or several characters have portable holes, handy haversacks, bags of holding etc. this "environmental challenge" goes POOOF. some modules even make casting of zillions of "endure elements" spell mandatory, something any caster with some pearls of power 1st is fine with, while charcters below level 5 are definitely hit hard by this, either taking away a high percentage of available spell slots or having to face penalties for exessive heat or cold. i am no fan of this kind of "impact of reality" into a module, unless there is a realy good reason for it or compensation for the low level characters. and handing out ONE scroll of "endure elements" per character for a fourthnigh's journey into the heat of the bright desert is just pathetic :rolleyes:. ciao martin m. theres a discusison going on about this in another thread atm. whilst i agree, at can be a pain having environmental effects, dont you think the game looses something if you ignore thm? i mean, how are u going to rp / enjoy / be immersed in being in a desert if you didnt even have to say you bought extra water?
clannagh 11-22-06, 11:33 PM	actually not at all ;) it is one of those thingies authors and dms use to make the live harder for low level characters :eek: . there are some modules that have "long journey through non-civilized or even not-live-supportive area". most of these tell this in advance so even low characters have no problem APART from carrying hundreds of pounds of food and water AND have to pay around 10 gp extra per week of travel. the moment a druid can make survival DC 20 automatically, the party's cleric can cast "create food and water" or even better "hero's feast" or several characters have portable holes, handy haversacks, bags of holding etc. this "environmental challenge" goes POOOF. some modules even make casting of zillions of "endure elements" spell mandatory, something any caster with some pearls of power 1st is fine with, while charcters below level 5 are definitely hit hard by this, either taking away a high percentage of available spell slots or having to face penalties for exessive heat or cold. i am no fan of this kind of "impact of reality" into a module, unless there is a realy good reason for it or compensation for the low level characters. and handing out ONE scroll of "endure elements" per character for a fourthnigh's journey into the heat of the bright desert is just pathetic :rolleyes:. ciao martin m. if you refer to bright sands most DM's seem to go the other way and thro in an offhand comment like "I assume you guys have the right stuff for the desert and enough water". This really annoys me when I have a Bright Sands character with sandskimmer heat endurance and a stack of expensive desert gear which the first mod implied you would need but in fact was totally unnecesary. on the original question .. my undersanding was upkeep paid for normal day to day food and accomadation (which I take to include rations) and replace standard arrows but NOT unusually expensive accomodation or supplies. It iseems to be meant to simplify keeping track of trivial items so it would be silly to not include standard trail rations.
Lupo 11-23-06, 01:26 AM	theres a discusison going on about this in another thread atm. whilst i agree, at can be a pain having environmental effects, dont you think the game looses something if you ignore thm? i mean, how are u going to rp / enjoy / be immersed in being in a desert if you didnt even have to say you bought extra water? i have nothing against "regional environmental challenges". but beyond APL 6 there is little impact of high or low temperature, as the party casters can maintain "endure elements" or even things like "water breathing" and "water walking" up for at least 8 hours per day for every party member with ease WITHOUT straining their spell slots too much whereas at APL 2 or APL 4 a caster has to INVEST nearly all his spell slots into this, making him unable to do much else. i have played bright desert modules where 4 characters out of 6 needed "endure elements" with a party composed mostly of level 1 and 2 characters, so the wiz AND the cleric were left with one or two first level spell slot that wasn't consumed for "endure elements". if one tries to do it with scrolls, the amount of money would have consumed nearly every gp one gets. so it is ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY hurting characters of level 1 to 3, after this the effect decreases rapidly, considering the one or another pearl of power. the problematic part is that there was no compensation for the low level characters. if there is an environmental challange, it should be at least somehow fair spread over all APLs and character levels. ciao martin m.
Frumpkis 11-23-06, 03:21 AM	But that's part of the journey of being an adventurer. As you gain experience, you become more powerful and gain tools/powers/abilities/etc to better help you deal with dangers & obstacles. Things that used to be difficult & deadly slowly become less problematic as you grow in experience and power. If higher-level PCs are better able to overcome environmental hazards, good for them. They've worked hard to get there.
Lupo 11-23-06, 04:07 AM	But that's part of the journey of being an adventurer. As you gain experience, you become more powerful and gain tools/powers/abilities/etc to better help you deal with dangers & obstacles. Things that used to be difficult & deadly slowly become less problematic as you grow in experience and power. If higher-level PCs are better able to overcome environmental hazards, good for them. They've worked hard to get there. the idea behind the APL system is that the challenge scales with levels, isn't it? it can be worked out fine with single environmental challenges like storms, making them stronger at higher APLs but for general environmental challenges it tends to take away 90% of the power of 1st and 2nd level spellcasters when they have to provide the rest of the party with endure elements for a journey of a fourthnight. ciao martin m.
LGMoses 11-23-06, 12:09 PM	the idea behind the APL system is that the challenge scales with levels, isn't it? martin m. Yes, the desert knows you are on your way and it IS PREPARED FOR YOU :evillaugh: I don't think scaling environmental challenges is a good idea. It would be like taking away a power a character has earned. Besides, the desert can't prepare for high level adventurers! "There they are, I'm going to be REALLY hot today." About the most you could do is throw more monsters at them. Anything else is going to affect verisimilitude.
SgtHulka 11-23-06, 12:50 PM	Yes, the desert knows you are on your way and it IS PREPARED FOR YOU :evillaugh: I don't think scaling environmental challenges is a good idea. It would be like taking away a power a character has earned. Besides, the desert can't prepare for high level adventurers! "There they are, I'm going to be REALLY hot today." About the most you could do is throw more monsters at them. Anything else is going to affect verisimilitude. I'm not sure I agree. High level tables could run into a blizzard if the environment if Frostburn, a hurricane if the environment is Stormwrack, or a sandstorm if the environment is Sandstorm. Each of those sources has less mundane horrific environmental challenges as well. Low-level parties could have the eye of the various storms "just miss them". For these parties, the extreme environment is dangerous enough without the added complication of natural or magical storms. How would this effect versimilitude any more than "At APL 8 the dragon's been alive for hundred of years but at APL 2 it was born yesterday"?
_m_ 11-23-06, 06:05 PM	also: if having environmental effects is punishing level 1 to 3's, isnt NOT having the effects equally as punishing to the brightsands character with 1500 gp of desert gear, heat resistance, an endless bottle of warter and sandskimmer? i mean technically, magic imune monsters are unfair for spellcasters. does that mean they should be removed if im a wizard? sure, the effects may hurt, but its not reasonable to remove them because of it.
clannagh 11-23-06, 08:16 PM	firstly the point in bright sands gear is to avoid needing endure elements .. realistically role play wise ... low level characters from other regions than bright sands maybe should not be there at all regardless ... i dont see the problem with endure elements proving there is a caster around that can cast from scrolls lets assume a party pf 4 only has a level one caster that can cast it twice and also assume all 4 players get a free scroll from karistyne generally bright sands travel is of the "you leave .. you get there five days later" type .. on these days the caster needs two scrolls to make up the difference the free scrolls cover the first two days so the five day journey costs the non casters 3 days * 2 scrolls * 25gc is 150 gc or 50 gc each for the journey. even if the journey was 10 days and you needed 10 scrolls that still only equals 250 gc to take part in a mod that generally willhave better than average AR access .. good value I would say
DuctShuiTengu 11-23-06, 09:47 PM	Yes, the desert knows you are on your way and it IS PREPARED FOR YOU :evillaugh: I don't think scaling environmental challenges is a good idea. It would be like taking away a power a character has earned. Besides, the desert can't prepare for high level adventurers! "There they are, I'm going to be REALLY hot today." About the most you could do is throw more monsters at them. Anything else is going to affect verisimilitude. I've run into this sort of stuff a way too many times before with my Ranger. So many mods it rained the night before I had to track something just because we were at one of the higher APLs it was available at. Eqyaron (completely tangental: why can no-one I play with pronounce that name?) hates stupid rain gods. Almost as bad as Vecna.
LGMoses 11-24-06, 12:51 AM	Forgive me, I'm kind of new to Greyhawk. Isn't Vecna dead?
The_Jester 11-24-06, 02:23 AM	While I'm not fond of elemental effects (punish the lower level tables who don't have much cash to spare for the basics let alone rare and expensive equipment for one out of every 10 mods while ignoring the high levels who do have the spare cash...) they're a part of life. But isn't lifestyle and upkeep supposed to pay for food? Isn't that the point of the general broad payment per TU to roughly cover small things for bookkeepings sake so one doesn't have to pay for mundane things like regular arrows, bits of fleece and fat, meals and inns? I mean, if not why would a warrior who doesn't use arrows or spell commonents sacrafice at least 12 gold each and every mod?
The_Jester 11-24-06, 02:30 AM	From the LG Campaign Standards This expense is the adventurer standard. Spending this gold allows characters to spend time in warm beds, eat hearty meals, travel in relative comfort (for adventurers), replenish rations, mend clothing and equipment, refill healing kits, restock up to twenty normal arrows and bolts (found on Table 7-5: Weapons of the PH), and properly heal between adventures. Emphasis added. How you carry all that weight is questionable but it appears food is just auto-payed for by lifestyle.
LGMoses 11-24-06, 07:51 AM	ok, so it DOES restock the amount of rations you bought to carry with you.
SgtHulka 11-24-06, 09:53 AM	ok, so it DOES restock the amount of rations you bought to carry with you. Yeah, that's how I play it. If you're caught on the road you've got the rations you've payed for and written down on your character sheet. However, once you've consumed those rations, you don't have to pay for re-supplying them at the end of the mod because upkeep does it for you. Kind of like arrows and healing kits. I'm not sure if that's technically the legal way of doing it though.