Post/Author/DateTime	Post
quenyaistar 02-03-06, 12:26 AM	When I got a copy of the Spell Compendium I made a list of usefull cleric and wizard spells up to 6th level; 33 cleric, 64 wizard. The spells on this list that are not limited or restricted total 21, come on! None of the Ray spells are core, come on! Now I realize some spells are just to good, but three fifths of them, come on! As John Wayne once said, "this is gettin to be regoshdarneddiculous". Mike :confused:
quenyaistar 02-03-06, 12:33 AM	Now I realize some spells are just to good, but three fifths of them, come on! Mike :confused: Derrrr, four fifths....
paigeoliver 02-03-06, 01:29 AM	One reason why I didn't buy the book. I'm not paying $40 so one of my characters can pick spells off a list of like 30 or 40 more.
JamesMaissen 02-03-06, 01:51 AM	It seems here is a case where we have differing Philosophies on how the campaign should be comprised. On the one hand there is the belief that having access to something unique is exciting and special just because others can't just have it. This was typified by certs, special unique items and characters offered (goblin, hobgoblin, 1/2 ogre, aasimar, etc), and the idea of the default limited option. On the other hand I believe that you make your own character special and the majority of access should be open. The smallest list of things should be the limited list. If it's too powerful (or broken) then ban it, while if it's not let people take it (why stop them if they want it). The last LGCS went this way in opening up many many options. Some should have been restricted it's true.. but I include Illusionary Pit on that list just as much as wraithstrike seeing them both as problems (the former not less so because it was limited). It would be good for the circle to weigh in with the general gaming public on how they feel/stand on this issue. It would help us understand where things are coming from in regards to what is offered and what is not. Why something is limited instead of either restricted or core. Without such guidelines it seems we are meandering back and forth aimlessly between the two. -James
demonwitch 02-03-06, 02:36 AM	I personally dont think that there is any reason for anyone to purchase the compendium if this be the case as there is errata on the net for each book and that most spells will not used from the compendium anyway by the sounds of things. The other point is that all information relating to spells/feats and so on from a core book should be all inclusive in the LGCS, not just ones that relate to the game. This would remove confusion caused by ommitance.
redgamer 02-03-06, 03:14 AM	What information that does not relate to the game do you want to see included in the LGCS. Please clarify your statement Demonwitch.
Mortepierre 02-03-06, 03:46 AM	Did it occur to people that the fact most spells from SpC weren't included in this version of the LGCS doesn't mean they won't be in future versions? Frankly, given SpC came out only in late December, how could members of the Circle possibly review the hundreds of new (for LG) spells within and choose which ones would be Core, Limited, NPC only, or Restricted? Give them time folks!
gomeztoo 02-03-06, 03:50 AM	On the one hand there is the belief that having access to something unique is exciting and special just because others can't just have it. I, personally, would go with this strategy. Even though I did see some nice spells in SC (yum). There is, I think, enough stuff Core to keep people versatile and happy. I feel getting access to the Limited stuff shoudl be seen as a challenge. Gomez
demonwitch 02-03-06, 05:18 AM	This relates to; Chain Missile (spell), Rainbow Blast (spell), Battering Ram (spell), Slapping Hand (spell), Light of Aurifar (feat), War Weaver (prestiege class) as examples. That are part of the core books and have not been included in the LGCS. I am aware that they may be included in later versions, however that they are part of the book and have not been included is odd... since it is required to have the books and have no information relating to their content. Sorry I thought I would just make the observation about it.
Mortepierre 02-03-06, 05:36 AM	Light of Aurifar (feat) is part of the core books and has not been included in the LGCS. I am aware that it may be included in later versions, however that it is part of the book and has not been included is odd... since it is required to have the books and have no information relating to their content. According to the BoBS sourcebook (v1.0), Light of Aurifar is a feat with limited access "unlocked" only for BL characters. Remember, if it's not Core, NPC only, or Restricted, it's now "limited" by default.
Moryath 02-03-06, 09:09 AM	Did it occur to people that the fact most spells from SpC weren't included in this version of the LGCS doesn't mean they won't be in future versions? Frankly, given SpC came out only in late December, how could members of the Circle possibly review the hundreds of new (for LG) spells within and choose which ones would be Core, Limited, NPC only, or Restricted? Give them time folks! Circle responses on the Yahoogroups and in public have indicated that the new spells will "never" enter Core status. I find this to be a bad thing.
Elfen_Archangel 02-03-06, 10:27 AM	Circle responses on the Yahoogroups and in public have indicated that the new spells will "never" enter Core status. I find this to be a bad thing. The Circle responses that I've seen indicate that none will enter Core status in this version of the LGCS. I haven't heard anything beyond that. Give them time and we'll most likely start seeing these spells pop up on AR's or slowly trickling into the Core list of spells. Matthew Schad
Moryath 02-03-06, 10:52 AM	Give them time and we'll most likely start seeing these spells pop up on AR's or slowly trickling into the Core list of spells. "Slowly tricking"? You're kidding yourself. There's one LGCS per year and just like last year and the year before, asking to have things moved up to greater availability is a forbidden topic. You're more likely to see more and more things restricted, because they always restrict things rather than simply issuing clarifications or errata when something is being misused. Witness the people on another thread trying to get Divine Metamagic banned because some triad let people have infinite access to a broken item.
Britt 02-03-06, 10:54 AM	As the Circle has said many times, they cannot issue errata or clarification. If WotC doesn't do it and it causes a problem in the campaign, the only option is to restrict it.
A'Talsen 02-03-06, 11:35 AM	As the Circle has said many times, they cannot issue errata or clarification. If WotC doesn't do it and it causes a problem in the campaign, the only option is to restrict it. Adsolutely. I'd like to see everything that isn't Core on the Restriced list. Really, the question should be "Is this approprate for the LG campaign?" If the answer is Yes, its Core, if the Answer is No, then its Restriced. (If the answer is 'Sometimes' then the answer is NO, and its Restricted) I'm aware thats a fairly absolute position, but its far simpler than the current system, and to my mind much fairer. Michael "Fish" Murphy
SteveMND 02-03-06, 11:36 AM	"I find this to be a bad thing" And yet, I find this to be a very good thing. Heck, if it were me, I'd have liked to see the only Core access stuff be from the PHB, and everything else be Limited -- after all, stuff from the other books is pretty much by definition supposed to be unusual or uncommon, and if it's Core, than it isn't anymore. Of course, that viewpoint also goes hand-in-hand with a more responsive metagroup system than we have currently in place for the campaign, but that's another topic for another day... "Really, the question should be "Is this approprate for the LG campaign?" If the answer is Yes, its Core, if the Answer is No, then its Restriced" Fair enough, but that leaves out a very large category of features: ones that are appropriate for the LG campaign, but should be rare or at least uncommon. The Limited category attempts to provide a response to that need.
quenyaistar 02-03-06, 12:00 PM	Give them time and we'll most likely start seeing these spells pop up on AR's or slowly trickling into the Core list of spells. Matthew Schad If you could copy limited spells from a fellow player the trickle method might work, but since you cant and most of us have multiple PCs it is very easy to miss access to a cool spell because you played with the wrong PC...In fact my wizard_RARELY_runs into other wizards that he can copy core spells off of anyways; counting on writers to include access to a limited spell you are interested in is ludicrous! I have gotten access to limited spells twice, and I have been playing since year 2, Here there be Dragons and a Duchy interactive that gave_WAY_more access than I have ever seen given in any LG event; you can get away with a lot if you are triad and popular with your circle rep, IMO. If they are not core now I am very doubtful they ever will be. If I have had time to review the new spells, so has the circle. Mike :)
quenyaistar 02-03-06, 12:08 PM	[QUOTE=SteveMND] Heck, if it were me, I'd have liked to see the only Core access stuff be from the PHB, and everything else be Limited -- after all, stuff from the other books is pretty much by definition supposed to be unusual or uncommon, and if it's Core, than it isn't anymore. This would be fine, BUT let PCs copy them from other PCs when they play together. Waiting for it to appear on your AR is unacceptable. Hey, thats a great spell can I copy it? Nope it is limited, you need to go see this guy in a mod I cant tell you about and he has a magic pencil that will copy it permanently into your spellbook. Sorry I am so vague but I fear the Circle Gods and their wrath..... Mike :)
Sieylianna 02-03-06, 12:10 PM	Adsolutely. I'd like to see everything that isn't Core on the Restriced list. Really, the question should be "Is this approprate for the LG campaign?" If the answer is Yes, its Core, if the Answer is No, then its Restriced. (If the answer is 'Sometimes' then the answer is NO, and its Restricted) The problem is that all items aren't appropriate for all regions. I think that's the biggest reason for limited. Ed
Moryath 02-03-06, 12:15 PM	The problem is that all items aren't appropriate for all regions. I think that's the biggest reason for limited. Ed Yeah, because the best way to make the game fair, is to make it so the guy with 5 weeks of vacation and funds to fly all over a continent has loads more options than the guy who doesn't. Sounds like a WotC-style gaming system to me.
SteveMND 02-03-06, 12:31 PM	"Yeah, because the best way to make the game fair, is to make it so the guy with 5 weeks of vacation and funds to fly all over a continent has loads more options than the guy who doesn't." Assuming the campaign doesn't start to cater to that minority, what some person in Duluth has or does not have makes absolutely zero impact on my game and my character. It's not a race, or a contest to see who has the most stuff. I really think the LGCS (and the campaign in general) needs to start emphasizing the fact that you don't really play in an internationalk campaign here -- you play your own regional game, and if you are lucky enough to get to head to other regions, fine, you get to experience soime new stuff. I think they really need to emphasize that fact that you are supposed to be playing a regional campaign first and a global campaign second. Over the last several years, that distinction has been lost on many people, I think.
Moryath 02-03-06, 12:40 PM	Assuming the campaign doesn't start to cater to that minority, what some person in Duluth has or does not have makes absolutely zero impact on my game and my character. It's not a race, or a contest to see who has the most stuff. I really think the LGCS (and the campaign in general) needs to start emphasizing the fact that you don't really play in an internationalk campaign here -- you play your own regional game, and if you are lucky enough to get to head to other regions, fine, you get to experience soime new stuff. I think they really need to emphasize that fact that you are supposed to be playing a regional campaign first and a global campaign second. Over the last several years, that distinction has been lost on many people, I think. Hey dude, check what I got in [Insert Insane Access Region Here]! Now I can [Do Something You Can't Dream Of Doing]! Why don't you go to [Name Of Bigass Convention Where The Interactive Is Written In Three Point Font]? Oh, you can't get the time off? So sorry. You're shut out. Too bad for you. I may be overdoing it here, but that's the feel lately. Some regions get the shaft, some don't. Those with the money and time off to go to major conventions or other regions with big access make the rest of us feel like peons, because they have access to all sorts of limited feats, weapons, PrC's while we sit trying to scrape together a usable character in the face of encounters that either have "circumstances" not calculated into the EL or else are just straight EL+4 or EL+5.
Britt 02-03-06, 12:45 PM	I prefer to think of it not as some regions getting the shaft, but as some regions givin gout more than they should. I believe this has been discussed by the Circle and will be corrected in the future, though I will continue to examine other regions' ARs to make sure.
JamesMaissen 02-03-06, 01:37 PM	The problem is that all items aren't appropriate for all regions. I think that's the biggest reason for limited. Ed This was a rallying cry when metaorgs and access there was debated, with cries of regional flavor being dependant on what items were available. Having travelled to almost every region in the Continental US, I'll say that this is bunk. Regional flavor is very strong and it is made, not by what's available, but instead by the people that play this game. What's trendy in one place can be novel in another. What no one has seen before in one region can be staid and commonplace in a second. What a PC has or does is not going to shatter that flavor. The flavor is the background. It is the setting- the medium we have our characters travel through. No one is going to mistake a module set in Geoff, Ket, the BK, or Dyvers for one another even if they are travelling with the same group of players to each region. You will likewise never mistake players on the West Coast with players from the East (no offense to either mind you). It's part of what makes this game great. And it's not a fragile little china doll that is going to shatter whether or not some feat, spell or PrC is available. And frankly if it would then it should be banned period. This game does cross regional boundaries. I grant you that there are gulfs there that are very seldomly crossed (ie it's always great to get to play with a Perrenlander, but its rare). Anyway, my point in my previous post about two differing philosophies has already been evidenced by the other posters. There are some who would like to make everything limited (on one side) and some who would remove the limited category all together. These are the poles. I'm curious where the Circle wieghs in here, as they have seemed to have been ossilating(sp) a fair bit (but that could just be my perspective, hence the curiousity). -James
Samwise 02-03-06, 03:01 PM	I agree with Sielyanna and SteveMND. Of course I'm sure the Circle already knows that, since they've heard me saying it since 2001. (So have they. And many other people. But there might be someone who hasn't heard it yet. :P ) So I'll just highlight a few specific things here. I have seen it affect regional play. When people have to wonder how to account for all the endless variations when writing up regional background, then it very much has had an affect. Those who have been around for awhile know the answer - just ignore them and write the background for the standard. But the Triads change, and a new person might think they HAVE to include everyone. And then regional flavor goes out the window. As for people who can travel getting more, let me suggest an amplification of what Steve suggested about the campaign not being a zero-sum game about whoever retiring with the most toys winning. The regional campaigns are written for PCs written in the regional flavor. They can (usually) accommodate all PCs written in the meta-regional flavor. They can (mostly) accommodate the rare PC writen in an outside regional/meta-regional flavor, as an atypical outsider. Those who create characters within those flavors get the best experience from the regional adventures. Those who don't get a lesser experience. And those who deliberately go region-hopping and cherry-picking for the best super-uber-mega-combo get to cakewalk through everything, and have their sole "enjoyment" be collecting another AR and yet more access. More, in due course people who would rather actually PLAY the adventures will come to know them, and choose to sit out an entire round rather than having to sit around for 3 hours watching said character's complete the adventure for them. And there you will have "balance" between those who can travel so much and those who can't. Roam the world and don't make separate regional characters and do nothing but collect more paper when you can find people willing to play. Stick with local, or have additional regional PCs, and get the most from the campaign. In this case, your money gets you what it should - more fun, regional focused play. As for Cores, they get to be their own bit of specialness. They have a specific local flavor, BUT they are set to accommodate everyone. Here you can get the most obscure mix of characters, each still designed and demonstrating a specific regional or meta-regional flavor.
solbergb 02-03-06, 04:38 PM	Me...I'm happy with the current set of options. We already have an overwhelming batch of spell options and I'm frankly nervous about letting a ton of LM, Faerun and similar stuff into the mainstream. Me, I'd like to see more stuff in there banned, but at least they did get some of the worst offenders.
JamesMaissen 02-03-06, 07:12 PM	Me...I'm happy with the current set of options. We already have an overwhelming batch of spell options and I'm frankly nervous about letting a ton of LM, Faerun and similar stuff into the mainstream. Me, I'd like to see more stuff in there banned, but at least they did get some of the worst offenders. And that's the practical problem with having a 'default' limited list. You know there is not going to be as much scrutiny concerning them. Think of all you've seen and heard of that's been done in modules. Whatever it is will get through. Then when it's realized that there's a problem it won't be considered much of a problem unless a lot of people are effected. Squeeky wheel and all that. It would be better even if the default were Core than being Limited. Atleast then you would know that the problem items would get addressed when they were realized. Of course best would be Restricted until vetted and then Core unless it needed to be limited. -James
Madfox11 02-04-06, 01:35 PM	you can get away with a lot if you are triad and popular with your circle rep, IMO. :rolleyes: That is some pretty nasty accusation you make there... Just remember that the Circle does NOT make the ARs, your local triad does. There is a limit to the rewards on one AR, but as long as that limit is not passed and all normal rules are followed, we do NOT change the ARs (though once in a while we do offer advice). Besides, gold IS limited the same all over the globe. You might have access to 100s of things, but ultimately you can only buy what you can pay for (and what you can carry).
Elder_basilisk 02-04-06, 10:24 PM	For my part, I would like to see core access to a new spells from the SC, if only because the rules of the campaign essentially force me to buy the book if I'm going to use non-core spells. I don't mind that too much because it's a nice resource, but it really stings that the only things I can use in LG are what was already printed in the Complete Books (which I had already purchased). Yeah, sure, I may get access to some of the limited spells through ARs, but that takes a long time to work through the system.
quenyaistar 02-05-06, 04:43 AM	:rolleyes: That is some pretty nasty accusation you make there... Just remember that the Circle does NOT make the ARs, your local triad does. There is a limit to the rewards on one AR, but as long as that limit is not passed and all normal rules are followed, we do NOT change the ARs (though once in a while we do offer advice). Besides, gold IS limited the same all over the globe. You might have access to 100s of things, but ultimately you can only buy what you can pay for (and what you can carry). I have written for LG and what I want to give access to had to be approved by my circle rep, in fact some thing were denied. Whether something is regional access or adventure access makes a huge diference and this also was determined by the circle rep. Limited spell access is approved by the circle rep. What gets through for some does not get through for all, I have seen it repeatedly. Mike :dragon:
Marshall 02-05-06, 12:40 PM	Hey dude, check what I got in [Insert Insane Access Region Here]! Now I can [Do Something You Can't Dream Of Doing]! Why don't you go to [Name Of Bigass Convention Where The Interactive Is Written In Three Point Font]? Oh, you can't get the time off? So sorry. You're shut out. Too bad for you. I may be overdoing it here, but that's the feel lately. Some regions get the shaft, some don't. Those with the money and time off to go to major conventions or other regions with big access make the rest of us feel like peons, because they have access to all sorts of limited feats, weapons, PrC's while we sit trying to scrape together a usable character in the face of encounters that either have "circumstances" not calculated into the EL or else are just straight EL+4 or EL+5. Bingo! All the adventures are written for twinked out supermunchkins who live in access happy regions. C'mon, the average mid adventure encounter is APL+4. Anyone who just shows up to play gets the short end of the stick. If you want to have a limited list thats over 1000 items long, at least use CORE mods as something more than a cursefest and TU sink.
WizO_Shadow 02-05-06, 06:08 PM	Ok. This is how this is going to work. If you have criticism or an issue that you'd like addressed, you will type it out in a constructive non-accusatory manner. Anything else will not be tolerated. WizO_Shadow
RAM 02-06-06, 01:30 AM	Hmmm, a challenge... It seems to me that many members of the Living Greyhawk(LG) community believe that some regions, meta regions and conventions offer superior LG access than that which is available to people who lack access to these venues. I have noticed some contributors to this debate have suggested that there seems to be a policy change within LG that would alter the ratio of limited access(LA) to core access(CA) to increase the proportion of LA material. This would seem to me to cause problems when those with better or worse access are in the same forum. If both parties play the same module it may be considered too easy by one party and too difficult by another. Any attempt to satisfy one group would cause anguish to the other. If a character dominates a game with superior equipment, feats and spells it will usually be to the detriment of the other participants. Increasing the relative quantity of limited material increases the extent to which access determines character options and will emphasise any discrepancies. In addition there is much discontent concerning the way the 'Spell Compendium'(SC) is being treated within LG. The fact that it is required for pre-existing material and the omission of any new material results in it being of benefit to those who possess the previous sources as little more than the only way to retain what they already have and to those who do not possess previous works it's generalised nature would lead it to likely be of less value than previous items(eg. the complete arcane would likely have more useful material for a sorcerer, and both would be highly redundant). Adding to the previous points that the SC spell modifications imply that the spells required modifying and yet no errata has been issued to those spells results in the requirement of the SC being a very unpopular move. My experience of access to limited material is that it is random, unforeseeable, and rare. Sufficiently so that I have had almost no use of it in over 100 ARs. This leaves the only recourse for reliable access as special missions, which require additional effort on the part of campaign staff and seem a very inefficient way of dealing with, for example, every mage who wants a few extra ray spells from the SC. I believe that inclusion of more core material would encourage purchase new books, reduce complaints, reduce tension between regions and significantly reduce discontent concenring the Spell Compendium. while it may well be impractical and/or undesirable to modify the currently debated LGCS in this way, some sort of suggestion that more material would become core would be a relief to me.
theliel 02-06-06, 01:38 PM	The general problem with the "Region Gap" as it's been known to be called is when a core mod get's written...and they write it for a group in 'candyland' instead of, y'know, those with 'reasonable' characters and you get regular parties slaughtered or failed and the uberparties still cakewalk through. *cough*thefivelimitedxfavorsigotfromthre earsandaninteractive*cough* Here's the deal though, 3.x D&D REQUIRES pre-planning. Anyone who didn't know where thier character was going at lvl 1 was un-optimized and in alot of cases a liability when a mod writer does the us vs. them Grudge Monster approach to combats. Limiting feats and PrC's means that almost no one takes them or you get REALLY lucky and have a conversion so that you can re-make the character to actually be able to use it. Items, spells and the like are less of a problem, but seriously, the inability to learn stuff from fellow wizards really really gives themthe short end of the stick IMHO
redgamer 02-07-06, 01:56 AM	I don't think the disparity between regions is a large as people say it is. Since regions only put out 7-8 ARs worth of mods a year one good or bad one can really skew things. Bissel has a mod about a theatre company. If someone from out of region played that modwith a bard they might think Bissel has outrageous access. Same for wizards and the two Dwoemercraft mods. Of the regions often cited poor access there are people in those regions who have claim to have great access. I was told the biggest reason why one regions players feel overly challenged in cores is because over half to players play things like bard/rogues, pacifist clerics, and wannabee mystic theurges. Characters that can work but most parties do better when someone has a BAB more than half the APL instead of everyone bring a support character. I recently got an AR that I originally thought gave excessive access. After sleeping on it I realized the item was so unique likely less than 2 people would ever buy it. Another example, access to things like the belt of sizing may seem like something to be jealous over but then you realize that players in that region can no more afford IIRC a 14k item that takes the same slot as a melt of strength. Oh well not saying disparity isn't there just reminding the complainers why it may not be a big deal and the actual disparity may go the opposite way that common theory says it does.
thorinXXX 02-08-06, 12:08 PM	Assuming the campaign doesn't start to cater to that minority, what some person in Duluth has or does not have makes absolutely zero impact on my game and my character. It's not a race, or a contest to see who has the most stuff. I really think the LGCS (and the campaign in general) needs to start emphasizing the fact that you don't really play in an internationalk campaign here -- you play your own regional game, and if you are lucky enough to get to head to other regions, fine, you get to experience soime new stuff. I think they really need to emphasize that fact that you are supposed to be playing a regional campaign first and a global campaign second. Over the last several years, that distinction has been lost on many people, I think. You might have a point if not for the fact that there are more Core mods than Regional and Metaregional combined.
SteveMND 02-08-06, 03:36 PM	If you are talking about a particular region's play availabilities, perhaps, but not by much. 16 'local' (8 regionals and 8 metaregionals) versus 20 core mods. Add in interactives, special missions and intro mods, and a player easily has the potential to have more rounds of play available to him that are 'local' than core each year. Further, Core mods are, by definition, 'generic' when compared to regional or even metaregional mods. You have little ability to influence the core arc, if at all. They are virtually never 'tailored' to your region's flavor. And -- IMHO on this one, of course -- almost every Core mod I've ever run or played in has been among the worst I've seen. I will admit that the success and enjoyment of a region is based entirely upon the player base, Triads and volunteeers, but to try and compare the potential Core aspects of LG to the potential regional aspects -- well, there's simply no comparison.