Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wooti 08-01-07, 08:49 PM	I have just got access to this PrC (it is in heros of battle) it seems very powerful. It allows buff type spells to effect multiple targets with one casting and at 4th level you to cast 3 prepared spells as a move action. So the first round of a 9th lv character could go: I cast haste of everyone and then activate my weave, everyone has heroism, improved invis, and fly. The draw backs are the first lv of 5 is a non spell casting level and it requires a fairly useless metamagic. It seems to me on spell casting level is worth losing it it allows you to cast 24 spells in one round. It seems broken to me, what are other peoples opinions? Have I missed something that makes it a much weaker class.
magebeast 08-01-07, 09:19 PM	Well, until you hit the last level of war weaver, everyone still has to remain in normal range of the spell for you to hit everyone with it - so the spells you listed would need everyone to be sitting in a nice tight formation, good for getting AOE'd.
control freak 08-01-07, 09:54 PM	:D no, because your casting buff spells, not evargs and wall of force :D but it is powerfull if you have strong party members, other wise it is not strong
CdrcJsn 08-02-07, 01:46 AM	You lose a caster level so it's not broken. Move along...nothing else to see here. (Shhhhhhhh! What are you trying to do, get it closed?!?!)
CdrcJsn 08-02-07, 01:50 AM	Out of curiosity, did you get access to it via a metaorg? If so, where? If from a mod, don't tell me.
JamesMaissen 08-02-07, 02:45 AM	It seems broken to me, what are other peoples opinions? Have I missed something that makes it a much weaker class. It's a very strong PrC that looses a caster level yet still seems tempting. Done up from the start I could make a very nice support arcane caster with one. But it seems powerful rather than broken. -James
Timlagor 08-02-07, 04:04 AM	I agree: very powerful but it really doesn't look broken.
Ancillary 08-02-07, 10:18 PM	At level 10, you can start each combat by greater invising and flying and something elsing the entire party (as a move action, still 1 or two spells left that round). You can easily do this three encounters a day. Most encounters are unable to handle this at all. The only reason it would not be broken is because you buff the party. Near auto-wins are more fun when everyone gets to contribute :)
Sieylianna 08-02-07, 11:01 PM	I would vote for Broken. I faced one in a module at the last con I attended. At APL 8, he cast greater invisibility, fly and I'm not sure what else on the two large monsters that were with him. Ed
Vamroc 08-03-07, 01:16 AM	That's well and good but compare him against a Spell Sword that class sits neck and neck with a Duskblade. In terms of holy crap you just did what and I need to barrow three more D6s from every one at the table. Throw in the fact by the time you become a fourth level spellsword. You will have earned enough gp to buy and or craft some freakin ugly weapons. Like the Obliterator I'm going to build Starmetal Great Sword with Evil Outsider Bane. Toss in my other "gifts" like Smite and Spell Channel at Spell Sword level 4. After I cast Critical Strike can I unleash over 21 D6 and then follow up with the second attack. Umm That should end most combats few things can stand a 28 D6hit.
Timlagor 08-03-07, 01:43 AM	30d6 is only about 100 damage. Most enemies have more HP than that by the time you reach Spellsword 4. (Duskblade is only really powerful at low levels anyway) Ancillary: I think you have a point ;)
bitznarf 08-03-07, 11:48 AM	At level 10, you can start each combat by greater invising and flying and something elsing the entire party (as a move action, still 1 or two spells left that round). You can easily do this three encounters a day. Most encounters are unable to handle this at all. The only reason it would not be broken is because you buff the party. Near auto-wins are more fun when everyone gets to contribute :) Um.. how does the fact that you help the whole party rather than just yourself affect something being broken or not? Who it helps has *nothing* to do with 'brokenness'. Note that I am not saying that war weaver is broken, nor am I saying that it isn't broken, I'm simply disputing the method used to arrive at that decision by Ancillary.
Ancillary 08-03-07, 12:30 PM	I think the difference between broken and powerful is how it affects the table. I do not think something is broken as soon as it passes a certain threshhold of statistical power. Gaining that moniker is more for things that "break" the gameplay at a table and do not let the game function properly. Since the war weaver does his thing and then everyone else does theirs, the table still functions pretty much the same way, except the odds on the PCs success are dramatically higher. It might make it so high that it is broken, but I have not played with or against one so I am not sure. I did not say War Weaver was not brokem, just that what I described would be the only reason why it would not be. Its raw power is overwhelming :)
CdrcJsn 08-03-07, 01:53 PM	Yeah. I see broken characters as min-maxed characters played by rude players who like to show off and dominate the table. By the very nature of the war weaver, there is a strong sense of promoting team work and everyone gets to contribute. Now facing one in combat...yeah, not looking forward to that. But it's not any worse than those mods I've encountered where most of the opponents drink potions and use consumables just before the party enters the room.
solbergb 08-03-07, 02:29 PM	As a general rule, nothing that costs a caster level can be broken. It's nearly impossible to end up with something more powerful than just getting another caster level in the 1-15 game. That said, you can do some interesting stuff with war weaver. I think it is one of the very rare classes where you almost get back enough to make up for the caster level, if you follow it through all the way. Generally lost caster level PRC's are for hybrid builds that aren't entirely about spellcasting (eg, arcane melee) because you pretty much never get enough back.
Sieylianna 08-03-07, 07:58 PM	That's well and good but compare him against a Spell Sword that class sits neck and neck with a Duskblade. You think Spellsword is powerful? It has some nifty abilities, but it costs way too many caster levels to be powerful. Now, trying to find a greater invis'd creature with 10' reach is a lot more problematic. It pretty well forces the party to stay close together, so no one is caught by themselves, but that makes you vulnerable to the AoE spells the war weaver casts. Ed
Ancillary 08-04-07, 02:31 AM	It is true spellsword is not super powerful, but I look forward to mine getting one more level and being level 10. d10 + 5 + 3d4 + 20d8 It averages out to be a little over a hundred damage. It is not as good as crowd control, but doing it on the first round w/ no buffs, no charge, or even swift actions taken into account is going to be a lot of fun. If I get lucky and off the big bad, that is when people will complain about it being "broken". Spellsword is statistically weaker than straight wizard, but if my trick makes the other characters have nothing to do then it is broken to them.
retro 08-05-07, 09:21 PM	Out of curiosity, did you get access to it via a metaorg? If so, where? If from a mod, don't tell me. I would imagine that a lot of players gained access to this PrC through a mod, rather than a metaorg. I name no names.
control freak 08-05-07, 09:48 PM	Ancillary It is true spellsword is not super powerful, but I look forward to mine getting one more level and being level 10. d10 + 5 + 3d4 + 20d8 It averages out to be a little over a hundred damage. It is not as good as crowd control, but doing it on the first round w/ no buffs, no charge, or even swift actions taken into account is going to be a lot of fun. If I get lucky and off the big bad, that is when people will complain about it being "broken". Spellsword is statistically weaker than straight wizard, but if my trick makes the other characters have nothing to do then it is broken to them. if that is broken then wizards are the definition of not right, any AoE spell Max+ empowered with MMSF, or quickened empowered spell sword needs to be able to take it and dish it out, not be a "glass Cannon" which many wizards try to be (useing false life) wizards can blow stuff up, control stuff, and if needed theres wizards that can stand up frount and beat up on the BBG (mostly 18 con/20 con dwarves+ false life+ mage armor) even a sorc is more powerful in sheer power then a spell sword but spell sword can keep it going all alone for 3-4 rounds where as wizards just cant
zoinks69 08-06-07, 01:40 PM	I don't consider this class "broken" for PCs. For NPCs however...man. As a DM, I'd love to have this guy in my supporting cast for the main encounter. That said...unless you've got a way to spin up his caster level, a good party should be able to undo what he dumps into the bad guys.
chesspiece 08-10-07, 02:31 PM	Out of curiosity, did you get access to it via a metaorg? If so, where? If from a mod, don't tell me. Join Ket and conquor in the name of the True Faith! http://home.cogeco.ca/~lg-ket/ket/metaorg/archons.htm :mrt:
CdrcJsn 08-10-07, 04:50 PM	Join Ket and conquor in the name of the True Faith! http://home.cogeco.ca/~lg-ket/ket/metaorg/archons.htm :mrt: Woot! Now I just need to come up with a concept that fits the region...
clik_ml 08-10-07, 05:31 PM	Join Ket and conquor in the name of the True Faith! http://home.cogeco.ca/~lg-ket/ket/metaorg/archons.htm :mrt: Oof. Looks like you need 5th level spells to get the access to the war weaver. Starting it at 10th level is a bit late for my tastes, since you don't get their real goodies until you're about retired. So the trick is to have a wizard who gets access in that manner, and then take a cohort war weaver via sharing access. Bah, better to find access in a mod or special mission. I still want my wizard war weaver with arcane disciple(healing) + magic of the land. Eldritch tapestry + magic of the land + augment healing + metamagic school focused empower= Cures that are actually worthwhile during battles. That's a lot of synergy that computes out to cure criticals that heal average 60+hp to the entire party at 10th level. The look on people's faces when a wizard is capable of healing the party better than most clerics should be priceless.
TWG_Prometheus 08-10-07, 05:38 PM	It is true spellsword is not super powerful, but I look forward to mine getting one more level and being level 10. d10 + 5 + 3d4 + 20d8 It averages out to be a little over a hundred damage. It is not as good as crowd control, but doing it on the first round w/ no buffs, no charge, or even swift actions taken into account is going to be a lot of fun. If I get lucky and off the big bad, that is when people will complain about it being "broken". Spellsword is statistically weaker than straight wizard, but if my trick makes the other characters have nothing to do then it is broken to them. I'm not getting it. How does your spellsword go about the +20d8 part of this attack series?
CdrcJsn 08-10-07, 06:18 PM	Oof. Looks like you need 5th level spells to get the access to the war weaver. Starting it at 10th level is a bit late for my tastes, since you don't get their real goodies until you're about retired. So the trick is to have a wizard who gets access in that manner, and then take a cohort war weaver via sharing access. Not sure, but I think the 5th level spell requirement is to be a part of the higher level tier, mostly for role playing purposes. From the link, it looks like the basic membership allows you access to the various benefits (PrC, substitution levels, etc). 5 ranks in a skill and 4TUs should be enough to gain entry. Can anyone from Ket confirm this?
clik_ml 08-10-07, 07:48 PM	Not sure, but I think the 5th level spell requirement is to be a part of the higher level tier, mostly for role playing purposes. From the link, it looks like the basic membership allows you access to the various benefits (PrC, substitution levels, etc). 5 ranks in a skill and 4TUs should be enough to gain entry. Can anyone from Ket confirm this? I think mebbe you're right. The format is a bit confusing on that org. Full speed ahead to Ket! (assuming we get a "yea")
RedKnightofKet 08-10-07, 09:11 PM	I think mebbe you're right. The format is a bit confusing on that org. Full speed ahead to Ket! (assuming we get a "yea") If you take a look at the AR (linked at the bottom of the page), I think it becomes a little clearer... and I believe you get access at the lower level. Just a note - I'm nobody official
Hariman 08-10-07, 09:28 PM	Oof. Looks like you need 5th level spells to get the access to the war weaver. Starting it at 10th level is a bit late for my tastes, since you don't get their real goodies until you're about retired. So the trick is to have a wizard who gets access in that manner, and then take a cohort war weaver via sharing access. Bah, better to find access in a mod or special mission. I still want my wizard war weaver with arcane disciple(healing) + magic of the land. Eldritch tapestry + magic of the land + augment healing + metamagic school focused empower= Cures that are actually worthwhile during battles. That's a lot of synergy that computes out to cure criticals that heal average 60+hp to the entire party at 10th level. The look on people's faces when a wizard is capable of healing the party better than most clerics should be priceless. Um, the great flaw is that you only get ONE Arcane Disciple Domain spell for each level of spells that you have. So only ONE +60 cure critical will only do so much. On top of that, Magic of the Land is situational, so it's only going to work some of the time. I can name a few mods where it would be great. But, there are many encounters that happen in cities, towns and worked dungeons. BUT: If you could do it with a cleric...
solbergb 08-10-07, 09:36 PM	Plus you have to make a freaking high Knowledge Nature check to make magic of the land work at all, and failure doesn't just eliminate the bonus, it fizzles the whole spell. With divine insight gone, this is an endgame feat only.
Eric Anondson 08-10-07, 11:10 PM	FWIW, war weaver is available to officers (sergeants and lieutenants) of the new Army Mage unit of the Shield Lands Standing Army.
clik_ml 08-10-07, 11:15 PM	Um, the great flaw is that you only get ONE Arcane Disciple Domain spell for each level of spells that you have. So only ONE +60 cure critical will only do so much. On top of that, Magic of the Land is situational, so it's only going to work some of the time. I can name a few mods where it would be great. But, there are many encounters that happen in cities, towns and worked dungeons. BUT: If you could do it with a cleric... It would indeed rock with a cleric, but in lieu of that, Spontaneous Healer was my plan, followed by Domain Spontaneity at higher levels (via Sacred Exorcist). Domain Spontaneity is probably overkill however. I was a little over-eager in my 60+ estimate since I forgot how danged hard it was to fit in Empower+Metamagic School Focus into the build. That kind of noise won't happen until way late. So the Cure Crit is only an average of 41 at level 8. :-( "Mass" "ranged" Heal at level 12 for 134 HP is still somewhat exciting. Hopefully you really don't need to use that many times per day, but Domain Spontaneity is an option by then. 5 Wizard/5 WarWeaver/5 SacredExorcist Human (relevant stats) 18 Int, 14 Wisdom Feats: 1w-Scribe 1h-ArcaneDisciple(healing) 1-AugmentHealing 3-SpontaneousHealer 5w-EnlargeSpell 6-CraftWonderousItem 9-MagicOfTheLand 12-DomainSpontaneity(healing) * the Sacred Exorcist bit is likely overkill and could just be replaced with 5 Wizard or whatever else you like. 12/15 feats could be Empower + Metamagic School Focus Conjuration (if a conjurer). As for Solberg's concern, the DC for Magic of the Land isn't that harsh for a wizard since they're going to have a rocking Int modifier + headband. It's more annoying for clerics and the like. A +6 Int modifier (2 bumps + crafted +2 headband) is acceptable for a Wizard at level 9, and the DC for a 4th level spell is a 19 knowledge nature check. 12 ranks+6 int modifier means you can tap it without any fuss. At 7th level you can still get by automatically on 3nd level spells (you don't get 4th level spells until 8th level thanks to WarWeaver, boo) with a +5 int modifier (crafted headband), 10 ranks, 2 synergy from 5 ranks of survival taken cross-class. So really you could take Magic of the Land at 6th level and bide your time until 7th level and use it on 3rd level spells, and at 8th level use it on 4th level spells. But doing so delays Craft Wonderous Item since a healing wizard is pretty darned feat starved. Any meta-orgs, or exceptional ability scores or skill focus (to be retrained later) will make tapping the DC's trivial. The real concern is whether the terrain allows for it, but it seems like a substantially large chuck of my LG combats have been set in the outdoors. Last time in a thread like this that I was in favor of Warweaver healing wizards using magic of the land I was shot down because I missed that magic of the land fizzled. I've since poured over the math and such, and it still seems viable. p.s. Stupid gleemax forum keeps logging me out before I finish my post. Arg.
CdrcJsn 08-10-07, 11:23 PM	"Mass" "ranged" Heal at level 12 for 134 HP is still somewhat exciting. Hopefully you really don't need to use that many times per day, but Domain Spontaneity is an option by then. You can't channel Heal into the weave (unless you have adept levels). Heal is a 6th level spell. War Weaver can only channel a spell up to their class level which tops at 5. Cedric
CdrcJsn 08-10-07, 11:27 PM	Frankly, if I was going to use Arcane Disciple, I would try to get Freedom of Movement instead. Who needs to cure if your allies can't be hit because they're all flying, hasted, have freedom of movement, greater invisibility and energy resistance?
clik_ml 08-10-07, 11:43 PM	You can't channel Heal into the weave (unless you have adept levels). Heal is a 6th level spell. War Weaver can only channel a spell up to their class level which tops at 5. Cedric Doh. I think my wizard healer concept is cursed to be riddled with gaffes in my defense of it. I'm still liking it though. Clearly I just need to convince some circle member to let me take a 6th level of War Weaver. I wonder how much beer is needed for this blatant bribery.
Ancillary 08-11-07, 02:05 AM	I have looked over the ket documents, and it seems that there is no reason anyone can't create a kettite war weaver, or relocate a wizard to ket and join. Although I think you cannot relocate except at the beginning of the year, Ill have to look at that. My current wizard 3 will become a war weaver if this all pans out. The 20d8 comes from channeling a combust with the spellsword ability and putting one in my spell storing glaive. No metamagic school focus stuff or anything. I am spending most of my extra feats on trying to gain the ability to make a dratic charge, so I probably will not be retraining them.
CdrcJsn 08-11-07, 02:51 AM	I have looked over the ket documents, and it seems that there is no reason anyone can't create a kettite war weaver, or relocate a wizard to ket and join. Although I think you cannot relocate except at the beginning of the year, Ill have to look at that. My current wizard 3 will become a war weaver if this all pans out. It looks like it requires Citizenship which I think means you need to spend a year in Ket or start a new character in Ket.
boolean 08-11-07, 11:58 AM	I think my wizard healer concept is cursed to be riddled with gaffes in my defense of it. I'm still liking it though. I don't think Domain Spontaneity combines with Arcane Disciple. DS requires that you have a particular domain. AD doesn't give you a domain, it just adds the spells to your class spell list (and limits you to casting each spell once per day). Spontaneous Healer might work instead, and it doesn't require turn undead, so you don't have to wait until after you take Sacred Exorcist levels. It's limited by your wisdom, but you need wisdom to use AD anyway, so that's not a problem. It is limited to only allowing cure spells, so you can't use it to get Heal. It also might not get around the once per day limit of Arcane Disciple. Clearly I just need to convince some circle member to let me take a 6th level of War Weaver. I wonder how much beer is needed for this blatant bribery. The Uncanny Trickster PrC from Complete Scoundrel might allow this. One of it's abilities allows you to add your UT level to your levels in another class for determining the effects of the second class's abilities. So, a War Weaver 5/Uncanny Trickster 1 would count as a sixth level War Weaver, and could put a sixth level spell (assuming they had one) into the weave. Of course, UT is NONC, so you need access. As the class heavily uses the skill trick mechanic from CS, access may be hard to get.
Ancillary 08-11-07, 07:16 PM	Looks like you can change your home region on Jan 1st, and the fluff of the metaorg makes a someone who never actually plays in Ket a perfect choice for the air archons who whose members travel the Flanaess, seeking out information on behalf of Ket. This is very cool. Now I just need to find equally good access to shadowbane stalker (although I don't want to worship pholtus which makes it harder).
clik_ml 08-12-07, 02:17 AM	Looks like you can change your home region on Jan 1st, and the fluff of the metaorg makes a someone who never actually plays in Ket a perfect choice for the air archons who whose members travel the Flanaess, seeking out information on behalf of Ket. This is very cool. Now I just need to find equally good access to shadowbane stalker (although I don't want to worship pholtus which makes it harder). Some Furyondy orgs give access to Shadowbane Stalker for a couple other deities... Heironeous: http://furyondy.com/metagaming/heironeous/ and St Cuthbert: http://furyondy.com/metagaming/stcuthbert/
Ancillary 08-12-07, 03:39 AM	The Saint Cuthbert one seems like a good fit. The Heironeous one requires an influence point to enter I would not ever be able to get. I used to think St Cuthbert was lame, but the recent article in Dragon about them made them seem cooler. It basically described them as no nonsense frontier types. People that take a common sense approach to things.
MatteBlack 08-12-07, 10:57 AM	Um.. how does the fact that you help the whole party rather than just yourself affect something being broken or not? Who it helps has *nothing* to do with 'brokenness'. Note that I am not saying that war weaver is broken, nor am I saying that it isn't broken, I'm simply disputing the method used to arrive at that decision by Ancillary. In my opinion, whether or not a rule ruins how fun this game is to play for everyone at the table should be the biggest factor in whether the rule is broken. Sharing the wealth definitely helps minimize how broken a rule is as opposed to one player dominating the whole combat with a can't miss technique and the rest standing by watching. Lee
Mommy was an Orc 08-12-07, 12:54 PM	Plus you have to make a freaking high Knowledge Nature check to make magic of the land work at all, and failure doesn't just eliminate the bonus, it fizzles the whole spell. With divine insight gone, this is an endgame feat only. Magic of the Land isn't that hard to make work: Grey Elf Wizard with 20 Int: 1: Your favorite feat 3: CWI 5: Enlarge Spell 6: War Weaver 1: Magic of the Land With 9 ranks and a 23 Int, that puts you at +15. That's auto 1st level spells. By 8th+, it will be automatic for any spell you can cast, assuming you eventually raise Int to 28(+6 item) and get a total of 12 ranks.
Hariman 08-12-07, 01:17 PM	Magic of the Land isn't that hard to make work: Grey Elf Wizard with 20 Int: 1: Your favorite feat 3: CWI 5: Enlarge Spell 6: War Weaver 1: Magic of the Land With 9 ranks and a 23 Int, that puts you at +15. That's auto 1st level spells. By 8th+, it will be automatic for any spell you can cast, assuming you eventually raise Int to 28(+6 item) and get a total of 14 ranks. Not bad. That's a pretty good way to crank up your knowledge nature check to make sure that Magic of the Land works. But it still suffers the flaw of only working in natural surroundings.
chesspiece 08-13-07, 01:21 AM	It looks like it requires Citizenship which I think means you need to spend a year in Ket or start a new character in Ket. The general entry requirement is "Ket Resident". Citizen is only required for the Senior ranks. The only game benefit of the upper tier is better free lifestyle in Ket. Ket has complicated Residency / Citizenship requirements. In general, living in Ket (changing your Home Region) grants residency to any non-monster races. The trick is that elves (not to mention centaurs & kobolds) count as monster races in Ket. If you create a new Ketite PC; dwarves, humans, and halflings have the option of starting off as a Citizen. Gnomes, 1/2 elves, 1/2 orcs, and hobgoblins may start off as a Resident. Elves, and any other races aren't considered Residents or even Persons (since they're viewed as monsters). Serving for 1 year in the Militia Org (the Paighan) will bump you up one category (Monster=>Resident=>Citizen). Ket Citizens must swear oaths of loyalty that preclude most noble / military titles from other nations. So, if you create a Ket PC or relocate an existing one to Ket, you can join as a Wiz2 unless you're an elf or a non-PHB race. The monster races must serve in the militia for one year to become eligible to join.
solbergb 08-13-07, 10:59 AM	Magic of the Land isn't that hard to make work: Grey Elf Wizard with 20 Int: Yeah, if you're a grey elf wizard with 20 int starting true. Which is of course valid for this thread. For anybody else, it's hard to make work.
Mommy was an Orc 08-13-07, 01:21 PM	Yeah, if you're a grey elf wizard with 20 int starting true. Which is of course valid for this thread. For anybody else, it's hard to make work. Once you hit 3rd level in War Weaver, Heroism is a great spell for the Tapestry - then the 16 Int Wizard has the exact same chance as the 20 Int Wizard. Also, Skill Focus(Knowledge: Nature) isn't that bad of a choice to go into Loremaster when you're trying to hit a set number like that. Save some skill points for a feat you're actually using.
Rerednaw 08-13-07, 06:01 PM	I WAS going to say that since the class is NONC most players who gain access in the AR fashion are probably already mid-way through their current 'build' so you'd probably be looking at a bit of retraining, assuming that your class was compatible to begin with. Now that I see it is meta-org access, and that you could plan a build around the class then I would put it slightly in the over powered category for the simple reason that based on the OP you get 3 spells for a move action. With your standard, plus quicken, that's 5 spells in one round. I can't imagine anyone claiming that 5 spells in one round is 'balanced.' Unless there is a huge limiting factor? Only spells of level 2 or less? Caster gets stunned for the next X rounds where X = number of spells cast? Does the class take 4 useless feats?
Iswald 08-13-07, 11:05 PM	War Weavers lose a caster level, which is a big hit. They also need to take all five levels to gain the most benefit, which is an opportunity cost since it means they can't use those levels for fatespinner or other PrCs. Dumping five spells on the party in the first round is huge. But, consider how quickly you'd go through all of your spells if you have three encounters in one day. It takes 10 minutes to set up the tapestry during which the war weaver must have line of sight to all the recipients. This isn't a major issue in most cases. Personal spells cannot be cast into the tapestry. Some other spells simply won't work, greater magic weapon is an example used in the book. War Weaver does require the enlarge spell feat and ranks in craft, two things most wizards may not normally take.
Maesto 08-13-07, 11:28 PM	You're worried about ranks in craft? For a wizard? Oh man, we don't have ranks to spare, do we? ;-) I got access with a Fighter1/Wiz6/EKnight1. I'm contemplating it; sure it doesn't work so well with the reduced BAB and another lost caster level, but hey - as a gish, being able to dump a whole lot of buff spells as a move action sure could be handy.
Timlagor 08-14-07, 07:14 AM	So what do you put through it? Haste, Displacement and...?
Iswald 08-14-07, 10:49 AM	You're worried about ranks in craft? For a wizard? Oh man, we don't have ranks to spare, do we? ;-) Heck, I wasn't worried about the skill ranks, simply noting that you'd have to spend them on something besides knowledge (some authors' mothers). :rolleyes:
LeeShort 08-14-07, 11:11 AM	So what do you put through it? Haste, Displacement and...? Just having gotten access and taken my first level in the class, initial investigations indicate that the number of spells that qualify to be cast through the weave is smaller than you might expect. Enlarge will be really good with multiple BDFs. Prot/Evil in any case. Mage Armor in rare cases. I think that's about it at first level. Second level is much better: Bear's Endurance (etc.), Resist Energy, Prot/Arrows, Invis, Misdirection, Darkvision, Levitate. Third level is even better: Magic Circle, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Greater Mage Armor, Tongues, Heroism, Displacement, Fly, Water Breathing, Walk the Mountain's Path Fourth has only one spell, but it's one to look forward to: Greater Invis I don't think fifth has any spells at all that qualify. I think that's about it for Open sorc/wiz spells. My character has a level of cleric, so I expect to get good mileage from Resurgence, Lesser Vigor, and Conviction.
LeeShort 08-14-07, 12:41 PM	Enlarge will be really good with multiple BDFs. Pardon me. Enlarge doesn't work. SpellForge is handy for quickly picking out the spells with (harmless) saves.
clik_ml 08-14-07, 01:19 PM	So what do you put through it? From the Sorc/Wiz list, I like most everything Lee listed, and would add a few (not all are open tho) 1: Endure Elements Benign Transpositon (when more than 2 people need shuffling) Nerveskitter Ebon Eyes (combine with Darkness/DeeperDarkness) 2: Blur Mountain Stance 3: Spiderskin 4: :-( 5: Draconic Might Xorn Movement Other options avail themselves if you take Arcane Disciple. Cures+ 2: Barkskin, 4: Airwalk, Deathward, Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity 5: Spell Resistance And lastly, some spells which don't benefit from being in the tapestry on the grounds that they affect multiple subjects anywho, are still sometimes worth putting in a weave since Quiescent Weave can lay down up to 4 spells through the tapestry as a move action. So haste is worth weaving then for example. Imagine starting a battle by laying down for everyone during the surprise round: Haste, Heroism, Nerveskitter (if ya got it), Greater Invis. You're gonna get the drop on whomever, and can likely afford to do it every battle (1,3,3,4 level spells, not too rough on a level 9 caster). Of course one can tailor their weave to the party too. And I have a 2nd level wizard who hasn't been played yet this year. Hrmmmm. Does one have to pick regions at the start of the year, or just before their first mod of the year? I don't expect I'll even get to play him this year, but ya never know.
awroe 08-14-07, 02:04 PM	There's a list of spells on the thread below, though it includes NONC and Closed spells. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=622748
clik_ml 08-14-07, 02:46 PM	Seems as though he overlooked haste.
Iswald 08-14-07, 10:01 PM	From the Sorc/Wiz list, I like most everything Lee listed, and would add a few (not all are open tho) 1: Endure Elements Benign Transpositon (when more than 2 people need shuffling) Nerveskitter Ebon Eyes (combine with Darkness/DeeperDarkness) Nerveskitter wouldn't work well in your tapestry. You need to use it before initiative is determined. You can use it normally as an immediate action. In your tapestry it is a move action. I wouldn't allow it to affect init unless it was used in the surprise round. Even then, it would only affect the your allies who haven't rolled their init yet. Since some judges will ask everyone for init at the same time, even in surprise rounds, it will cause issues. You can always use higher level slots for lower spells if you want to put some third level spells into your fourth level slots to have them to put into your tapestry.
adamblack 09-14-07, 08:53 PM	Anyone know if the War Weaver can use a magic item such as a wand, staff, scroll, or ring of spell storing etc... to cast a spell into the eldritch tapestry? Adam
solbergb 09-17-07, 12:47 PM	At most tables, such questions about items are all in the negative. The item casts the spell, not the caster. This is why the caster level is (usually) based on the item and the save DC is not based on the caster's DC. So no augment healing, warmage edge, +0 metamagic, metamagic rods at time of casting or weave. Or anything else that is an attribute of the caster, rather than the item. Ring of spell storing is minimum caster level, other spell storing items may be caster level in = caster level out and in that event it's less clear what goes on with save DC's and other options. Spell storing items can of course have metamagic applied before the spell is loaded, and you can craft scrolls/wands etc with metamagic. I've seen no evidence though that crafted items or spell storing items ever benefit from things like warmage edge, augment healing or weave, which are feats/class abilities that can't be expressed in terms of spell levels/slots like metamagic can. I have seen counterarguments online though, which mean the occasional judge may rule otherwise and there may be pockets of players where that ruling is the majority. I don't agree with those arguments, but other points of view do exist.
Timlagor 09-18-07, 02:22 AM	The silly FAQ ruling that Augment Summoning works on scrolls is viewed by most people as extending to Augment healing ime. Warmage Edge explicitly doesn't work with wands and scrolls though. I'd have to read the Weave text to be sure how I'd rule on that but probably not.
Mommy was an Orc 09-18-07, 08:54 AM	The silly FAQ ruling that Augment Summoning works on scrolls is viewed by most people as extending to Augment healing ime. My general rule of thumb is that if a FAQ ruling is truly silly, I limit it to exactly what it says. The best example is the Ki Strike not affecting incorporeals. It could apply to archers, but it could also apply to every single monster that is treated as a magic weapon. Meaning that despite Incorporeals saying that they can be struck by creatures treated as magic weapons, there are no creatures capable of doing it.
Vamroc 09-18-07, 01:54 PM	You lose a caster level so it's not broken. Behold the glory of Practiced Spellcaster you can even apply it to non spell casting classes you alread have. You get four caster levels that you can apply to any level of any class that doesn't have one. These aren't bonus caster levels so if your 8th level wizard takes two levels of monk he will only cast at tenth level. As a spell caster this feat ROCKS the old combo was Mage Slayer and Practiced Spellcaster. This way you retain the feat's ability to threaten spellcasters and use Practice to negate its drawback. This is why Mage Slayer is Closed in addition it helped make Occult Slayer a really ugly Prestige Class.
JamesMaissen 09-18-07, 02:05 PM	Behold the glory of Practiced Spellcaster. The point isn't what level you cast the spells at.. it's what level you *get* spells at. If you are 11th character level as a mainline wizard then 6th level spells are the power that you want to have. Whether you can throw an 11die Cone of Cold or just a 10die one isn't really the issue. Practiced Spellcaster is a nice feat. Heck it's one of those feats that I think should be automatic and not cost a feat (along with weapon finesse, power attack, combat expertise). It makes gestalt characters viable. It doesn't make them into true 'gestalt' characters however. -James
GeorgeFHarris 09-18-07, 02:10 PM	Behold the glory of Practiced Spellcaster you can even apply it to non spell casting classes you alread have. You get four caster levels that you can apply to any level of any class that doesn't have one. These aren't bonus caster levels so if your 8th level wizard takes two levels of monk he will only cast at tenth level. As a spell caster this feat ROCKS the old combo was Mage Slayer and Practiced Spellcaster. This way you retain the feat's ability to threaten spellcasters and use Practice to negate its drawback. This is why Mage Slayer is Closed in addition it helped make Occult Slayer a really ugly Prestige Class. Yes, but you would still use the spell slots, the maximum level spell that you can cast, etc. The only thing that practiced spellcaster does affect is Caster Level. For some people this is enough. For others, they cannot stand the thought of losing a Spellcaster level (as opposed to Caster Level), unless the Prestige Class offers something really special. A lot of people think that WarWeaver falls into this category. GH