Warmage - Blades of Fire spell - what level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warmage - Blades of Fire spell - what level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kjenks
03-12-06, 07:42 AM There's an apparent contradiction in the Dispel Confusion rules about this spell.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgif/20060119a

(1) "Warmages and hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells."

(2) "Spells that have changed levels, or have been added or removed from spell lists: ... Blades of fire (2nd to 1st)"

So, did Blades of Fire change from 2nd to 1st for Warmages?

It was 2nd in Complete Arcane. Spell Compendium does not list any Warmage spells specifically.
ranger76
03-12-06, 08:17 AM So they missed one spell out of all of them, big deal, now you're just nitpicking....change the line to "Hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." The whole point of the dispell confusion was to point out that the spell compendium is offical errata.
kjenks
03-12-06, 10:06 AM So they missed one spell out of all of them, big deal, now you're just nitpicking....change the line to "Hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." The whole point of the dispell confusion was to point out that the spell compendium is offical errata.

Sadly, it's not that simple. The LGCS plus Dispel Confusion provide campaign documentation that may allow a Warmage to cast that spell with a 1st level slot. Or maybe not.
JohnduBois
03-12-06, 11:01 AM So they missed one spell out of all of them, big deal, now you're just nitpicking....change the line to "Hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." The whole point of the dispell confusion was to point out that the spell compendium is offical errata.

Unfortunately, nitpicking has become important. Many players, DM's, and authors all engage in it for various reasons. Nitpicking (which, in my opinion, should get some of these regulars hired as copy editors for WotC) gives you have things like players insisting that Rod of Defiance from Libris Mortis removes and existing turn resistance an undead has and replaces it with -4. Thus, similar nitpicking should be done now to ensure that people who would rather argue rules than play a game have fewer opportunities to do so.

In other words, I back nitpicking now to avoid nitpicking at the table.
King Kashue
03-12-06, 01:34 PM So they missed one spell out of all of them, big deal, now you're just nitpicking....change the line to "Hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." The whole point of the dispell confusion was to point out that the spell compendium is offical errata.

The point of the Dispel Confusion is to clarify unclear or contradictory rules...Which this is...

This whole board is about nitpicking through the rules so that they can be cleared up for the whole of LG...
nutellajoe
03-12-06, 06:17 PM So... Is it changed from level 2 to 1 for warmage or what Im confused.
kjenks
03-12-06, 10:13 PM We can't tell whether it was changed from 2nd to 1st or not.

The rules in the Dispel Confusion contain that contradiction I mentioned. One rule says, "Warmages and hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." The other rule says, "Spells that have changed levels, or have been added or removed from spell lists: ... Blades of fire (2nd to 1st)"

We have no way of knowing which rule takes precedence.

This is important for a Warmage because the SpC does not tell us the levels of ANY Warmage spells. The Warmage spell list is defined in the CAr, but many of the spells also appear in SpC. CAr lists Blades of Fire as Ranger 2, Sorc/Wiz 2, Warmage 2. SpC lists Blades of Fire as Ranger 1, Sorc/Wiz 1, with no mention of Warmage.

So we really need a Circle ruling about what they want us to do.
solbergb
03-13-06, 02:37 PM For my warmage, and for tables I'm judging I'm assuming it is a L2 spell.

Reasoning:

1. The only source of the warmage spell list is CA.

2. It really doesn't matter what level the spell is on somebody else's list (gust of wind is a L3 spell on warmage list, ice storm is a L3 spell on warmage list)

Simple, easy, and 100% consistent with the rules - important if you are a judge ruling and need to explain your logic quickly to a player who thinks otherwise. The spell descriptions are in the SC yes, but the spell LIST hasn't changed.

Oh also

3. If some judge thinks it is a L1 spell, I'm still allowed to use L2 spell slots to cast it anyway, so he won't notice I have a different opinion.
ranger76
03-14-06, 03:35 PM When I posted before, I didn't realize that the spell compendium didn't even mention warmages at all for Blades of Fire. In that case I have another question...
Can Warmages cast Blades of Fire at all now? If the spell compendium is offical errata, then its supposed to be the correct version of the spell.
Removing the spell from a warmages spell list would still follow:
(1) "Warmages and hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells."

(2) "Spells that have changed levels, or have been added or removed from spell lists: ... Blades of fire (2nd to 1st)"

I don't own the spell compendium so I can't check any of this.
DuctShuiTengu
03-14-06, 04:16 PM Can Warmages cast Blades of Fire at all now? If the spell compendium is offical errata, then its supposed to be the correct version of the spell.

The problem with this assuption is that none of the spells in the Spell Compendium (including all the ones from the warmage list that aren't in the PHB - except Accuracy, which apparently got missed) mention the Warmage class for which lists they appear on. So do Warmages now only have the spells from the PhB and Accuracy? Did the entire Warmage spell-list get erased because it wasn't reprinted in the Spell Compendium and they now only have those they learn through advanced learning?

Personally, until/unless official changes are made, I'd assume that Warmages continue to use the list of spells (and spell-levels) given in Complete Arcane (albeit with the versions of the spells in the Spell Compendium). So Blades of Fire would still be 2nd level for them.
WotC_Tulach
03-14-06, 07:43 PM Warmages and hexblades have no level alterations to their spells; if it appears at a certain level on the warmage's or hexblade's spell list, it is still at that spell level, even if it changed for other classes.
kjenks
03-14-06, 11:35 PM Thanks. That clears it up nicely.
Greyson
03-17-06, 10:33 PM Which Blades of Fire spell does a warmage use to convey damage? Is it 1d8 points of damage per Spell Compendium, or 1d6 points of damage per Complete Arcane?

So, the warmage uses the spell list in Complete Arcane. Does that class use the spell description in that book, too? Or, does he only retain the spell list in Complete Arcane, but use the effects as detailed in Spell Compendium?
solbergb
03-20-06, 12:54 PM It is the SC version.

I'm not sure why this is so confusing.

The spell list gives you the name of the spell and the level from which you cast it. This varies from class to class, even if spells have the same names. The spell list you can use is the Warmage list, which is found in the MH and CD, but CD is more recent so we use the CD list.

Many of these are PHB spells, so you go to the PHB for spell descriptions, and you use the most current eratta for those spells.

The rest are found in multiple places, one of which is SC. SC is most recent and is also considered to be eratta, so you go to the SC for spell descriptions.

Done and done. Spell list location has zip to do with spell description location.
kjenks
03-20-06, 02:23 PM I'm not sure why this is so confusing.

I thought it was perfectly clear, originally, that this spell should be changed from Warmage 2 to Warmage 1, because that's what the Dispel Confusion article told us to do. Then a friend pointed out the contradictory text in the Dispel Confusion article, "Warmages and hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." With that -- and the help of our friendly Circle member, Black Flame Zealot -- it's clear that it should remain Warmage 2, per the Warmage spell list in the CAr.

I can understand Greyson's confusion, too. But I think that solbergb is right, and we should use the SpC description of the spell, even though we're using the CAr version of the Warmage spell list.

My most recent LG Spell List shows it as Warmage 2:

http://members.aol.com/kenjenks/lg/
Greyson
03-21-06, 10:21 AM It is the SC version... Spell list location has zip to do with spell description location.
But I think that solbergb is right, and we should use the SpC description of the spell, even though we're using the CAr version of the Warmage spell list. Okay. Thanks guys. I forgot about using the latest published version of a rule as the primary source - I should've remembered that. But, I appreciate the clarification and reminder. There are a lot of rules out there to keep track of.

Happy gaming.
solbergb
03-21-06, 05:05 PM I thought it was perfectly clear, originally, that this spell should be changed from Warmage 2 to Warmage 1, because that's what the Dispel Confusion article told us to do. Then a friend pointed out the contradictory text in the Dispel Confusion article,

Well, the Dispel Confusion article talked about what SC changed (and also that list was later clarified to NOT be a comprehensive, inclusive or even accurate list of changes....it was an FYI thrown together and assumed to be better than nothing. What the list did do is show that the SC changes were extensive, so you should just buy the book).

But since the SC had NO spell list for warmage or hexblade, the only reasonable assumption is to use the last available source, CD. After all, a new printing of the Players Handbook which shows ice storm as a L4 wizard spell and Gust of Wind as a L2 wizard spell doesn't change the fact that both are L3 warmage spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kjenks 03-12-06, 07:42 AM	There's an apparent contradiction in the Dispel Confusion rules about this spell. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgif/20060119a (1) "Warmages and hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." (2) "Spells that have changed levels, or have been added or removed from spell lists: ... Blades of fire (2nd to 1st)" So, did Blades of Fire change from 2nd to 1st for Warmages? It was 2nd in Complete Arcane. Spell Compendium does not list any Warmage spells specifically.
ranger76 03-12-06, 08:17 AM	So they missed one spell out of all of them, big deal, now you're just nitpicking....change the line to "Hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." The whole point of the dispell confusion was to point out that the spell compendium is offical errata.
kjenks 03-12-06, 10:06 AM	So they missed one spell out of all of them, big deal, now you're just nitpicking....change the line to "Hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." The whole point of the dispell confusion was to point out that the spell compendium is offical errata. Sadly, it's not that simple. The LGCS plus Dispel Confusion provide campaign documentation that may allow a Warmage to cast that spell with a 1st level slot. Or maybe not.
JohnduBois 03-12-06, 11:01 AM	So they missed one spell out of all of them, big deal, now you're just nitpicking....change the line to "Hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." The whole point of the dispell confusion was to point out that the spell compendium is offical errata. Unfortunately, nitpicking has become important. Many players, DM's, and authors all engage in it for various reasons. Nitpicking (which, in my opinion, should get some of these regulars hired as copy editors for WotC) gives you have things like players insisting that Rod of Defiance from Libris Mortis removes and existing turn resistance an undead has and replaces it with -4. Thus, similar nitpicking should be done now to ensure that people who would rather argue rules than play a game have fewer opportunities to do so. In other words, I back nitpicking now to avoid nitpicking at the table.
King Kashue 03-12-06, 01:34 PM	So they missed one spell out of all of them, big deal, now you're just nitpicking....change the line to "Hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." The whole point of the dispell confusion was to point out that the spell compendium is offical errata. The point of the Dispel Confusion is to clarify unclear or contradictory rules...Which this is... This whole board is about nitpicking through the rules so that they can be cleared up for the whole of LG...
nutellajoe 03-12-06, 06:17 PM	So... Is it changed from level 2 to 1 for warmage or what Im confused.
kjenks 03-12-06, 10:13 PM	We can't tell whether it was changed from 2nd to 1st or not. The rules in the Dispel Confusion contain that contradiction I mentioned. One rule says, "Warmages and hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." The other rule says, "Spells that have changed levels, or have been added or removed from spell lists: ... Blades of fire (2nd to 1st)" We have no way of knowing which rule takes precedence. This is important for a Warmage because the SpC does not tell us the levels of ANY Warmage spells. The Warmage spell list is defined in the CAr, but many of the spells also appear in SpC. CAr lists Blades of Fire as Ranger 2, Sorc/Wiz 2, Warmage 2. SpC lists Blades of Fire as Ranger 1, Sorc/Wiz 1, with no mention of Warmage. So we really need a Circle ruling about what they want us to do.
solbergb 03-13-06, 02:37 PM	For my warmage, and for tables I'm judging I'm assuming it is a L2 spell. Reasoning: 1. The only source of the warmage spell list is CA. 2. It really doesn't matter what level the spell is on somebody else's list (gust of wind is a L3 spell on warmage list, ice storm is a L3 spell on warmage list) Simple, easy, and 100% consistent with the rules - important if you are a judge ruling and need to explain your logic quickly to a player who thinks otherwise. The spell descriptions are in the SC yes, but the spell LIST hasn't changed. Oh also 3. If some judge thinks it is a L1 spell, I'm still allowed to use L2 spell slots to cast it anyway, so he won't notice I have a different opinion.
ranger76 03-14-06, 03:35 PM	When I posted before, I didn't realize that the spell compendium didn't even mention warmages at all for Blades of Fire. In that case I have another question... Can Warmages cast Blades of Fire at all now? If the spell compendium is offical errata, then its supposed to be the correct version of the spell. Removing the spell from a warmages spell list would still follow: (1) "Warmages and hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." (2) "Spells that have changed levels, or have been added or removed from spell lists: ... Blades of fire (2nd to 1st)" I don't own the spell compendium so I can't check any of this.
DuctShuiTengu 03-14-06, 04:16 PM	Can Warmages cast Blades of Fire at all now? If the spell compendium is offical errata, then its supposed to be the correct version of the spell. The problem with this assuption is that none of the spells in the Spell Compendium (including all the ones from the warmage list that aren't in the PHB - except Accuracy, which apparently got missed) mention the Warmage class for which lists they appear on. So do Warmages now only have the spells from the PhB and Accuracy? Did the entire Warmage spell-list get erased because it wasn't reprinted in the Spell Compendium and they now only have those they learn through advanced learning? Personally, until/unless official changes are made, I'd assume that Warmages continue to use the list of spells (and spell-levels) given in Complete Arcane (albeit with the versions of the spells in the Spell Compendium). So Blades of Fire would still be 2nd level for them.
WotC_Tulach 03-14-06, 07:43 PM	Warmages and hexblades have no level alterations to their spells; if it appears at a certain level on the warmage's or hexblade's spell list, it is still at that spell level, even if it changed for other classes.
kjenks 03-14-06, 11:35 PM	Thanks. That clears it up nicely.
Greyson 03-17-06, 10:33 PM	Which Blades of Fire spell does a warmage use to convey damage? Is it 1d8 points of damage per Spell Compendium, or 1d6 points of damage per Complete Arcane? So, the warmage uses the spell list in Complete Arcane. Does that class use the spell description in that book, too? Or, does he only retain the spell list in Complete Arcane, but use the effects as detailed in Spell Compendium?
solbergb 03-20-06, 12:54 PM	It is the SC version. I'm not sure why this is so confusing. The spell list gives you the name of the spell and the level from which you cast it. This varies from class to class, even if spells have the same names. The spell list you can use is the Warmage list, which is found in the MH and CD, but CD is more recent so we use the CD list. Many of these are PHB spells, so you go to the PHB for spell descriptions, and you use the most current eratta for those spells. The rest are found in multiple places, one of which is SC. SC is most recent and is also considered to be eratta, so you go to the SC for spell descriptions. Done and done. Spell list location has zip to do with spell description location.
kjenks 03-20-06, 02:23 PM	I'm not sure why this is so confusing. I thought it was perfectly clear, originally, that this spell should be changed from Warmage 2 to Warmage 1, because that's what the Dispel Confusion article told us to do. Then a friend pointed out the contradictory text in the Dispel Confusion article, "Warmages and hexblades did not see any level alterations of their spells." With that -- and the help of our friendly Circle member, Black Flame Zealot -- it's clear that it should remain Warmage 2, per the Warmage spell list in the CAr. I can understand Greyson's confusion, too. But I think that solbergb is right, and we should use the SpC description of the spell, even though we're using the CAr version of the Warmage spell list. My most recent LG Spell List shows it as Warmage 2: http://members.aol.com/kenjenks/lg/
Greyson 03-21-06, 10:21 AM	It is the SC version... Spell list location has zip to do with spell description location. But I think that solbergb is right, and we should use the SpC description of the spell, even though we're using the CAr version of the Warmage spell list. Okay. Thanks guys. I forgot about using the latest published version of a rule as the primary source - I should've remembered that. But, I appreciate the clarification and reminder. There are a lot of rules out there to keep track of. Happy gaming.
solbergb 03-21-06, 05:05 PM	I thought it was perfectly clear, originally, that this spell should be changed from Warmage 2 to Warmage 1, because that's what the Dispel Confusion article told us to do. Then a friend pointed out the contradictory text in the Dispel Confusion article, Well, the Dispel Confusion article talked about what SC changed (and also that list was later clarified to NOT be a comprehensive, inclusive or even accurate list of changes....it was an FYI thrown together and assumed to be better than nothing. What the list did do is show that the SC changes were extensive, so you should just buy the book). But since the SC had NO spell list for warmage or hexblade, the only reasonable assumption is to use the last available source, CD. After all, a new printing of the Players Handbook which shows ice storm as a L4 wizard spell and Gust of Wind as a L2 wizard spell doesn't change the fact that both are L3 warmage spells.