Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Howie23 04-17-07, 01:15 PM	Brainstorming the crafter/wealth balance: Taking a page from treatment of animals adjusting APL: Add to the number of total levels of the party for a character based upon wealth. If market value of non-cash is above a certain level, the add a level for calculating APL. Say, more wealth than the expected wealth of character level +1 or character level +2. This is an incremental uptick so is not punative. It reflects the actual benefit of add'l wealth (items, not merely gold or feat). It is relatively easy to calculate (directly from MIL). David
Britt 04-17-07, 02:04 PM	We will not be instituting a system of mandatory wealth tracking. There is already too much accounting in LG; adding more is not desirable.
Howie23 04-17-07, 02:22 PM	We will not be instituting a system of mandatory wealth tracking. There is already too much accounting in LG; adding more is not desirable. Ok, thanks for the reply. However, the nature of brainstorming is to try to come up with ideas, for the purpose of stimulating creativity. So, maybe tracking wealth isn't what is needed or will not be done, but something else is that can be uncovered by pursuing this topic, regardless. For example, in looking at the crafting wealth balance, in terms of quantifying the issue: Take an crafting wizard who has put all gold into non-comsumable crafting (extreme wealth disparity example). Except for corner cases, at a maximum, he can have double the weath of the non-crafting wizard. That represents about two levels more material wealth than a non-crafter. If not wealth, is there a substitute metric? Say, the maximum value of an item (a single value, not an accounting process)? David
Mattastrophic 04-17-07, 02:30 PM	I've been away from this board from awhile... Why are these threads popping up? Is Craft Wondrous Item suddenly broken or something? Spending a feat slot, as well as tons of XP and TUs suddenly isn't enough to balance it? I'm confused. -Matt
Howie23 04-17-07, 02:44 PM	Why are these threads popping up? Is Craft Wondrous Item suddenly broken or something? Spending a feat slot, as well as tons of XP and TUs suddenly isn't enough to balance it? Crafting has always been disbalanced regarding wealth to level. Loss of XP is not a penalty when looking at a character's capabilities at a given level, it is a benefit. TUs are not an issue when players have multiple PCs. So crafting isn't merely not balanced by XP/TU costs, but is in a feedback loop. The character development balance for crafting is the opportunity cost of the feat. The nature of crafting has changed a lot with the new LGCS. Instead of providing access to things you couldn't have otherwise, via CL+2 or old ARs, it now becomes a benefit that is foundational to a wide variety of PCs. CL3 gives access to stat boost +6 items, etc. The possible range of wealth has broadened considerably. David
Mattastrophic 04-17-07, 03:10 PM	Okay, so you're perceiving a problem with people with Craft Wondrous having too much stuff, compared to what they "should have." Note that there really is no standard of what a character "should have," or else we'd already be adhering to it, wouldn't we? Let's say for a moment that you're correct. How do you propose we "fix it?" Track everyone's wealth to make sure we don't go beyond a certain cap? Impose a maximum gp value chart of what we can craft tied to our character level? Remove Craft Feats all together? Heck, why don't we just give everyone a total equipment value based on our level. There's a reason why Living Greyhawk is not Xen'drik Expeditions. So I'll say this... STOP IT. Stop advocating for this unattainable goal of "balance" amongst characters. Unless we standardize every single LG character, characters are going to be different from each other!!! Does it really impose so dearly on your enjoyment of the campaign when someone else has a higher gp value than you? Have you considered just accepting it, instead of advocating that the campaign leadership slap more and more restrictions on us? LG characters are not standardized. As long as they are not standardized, this vision of "balance" will never be met. So stop asking for it! [/soapbox] -Matt
Howie23 04-17-07, 03:59 PM	Okay, so you're perceiving a problem with people with Craft Wondrous having too much stuff, compared to what they "should have." Note that there really is no standard of what a character "should have," or else we'd already be adhering to it, wouldn't we? Actually, there is such a standard, and it is embedded in the campaign structure. Class, please turn to DMG p. 135. The current structure of the APL's XP/GP structure is a close match for that chart, assuming a 5% consumption rate when playing, on average, at APL. Let's say for a moment that you're correct. How do you propose we "fix it?" Track everyone's wealth to make sure we don't go beyond a certain cap? Impose a maximum gp value chart of what we can craft tied to our character level? Remove Craft Feats all together? I tossed out an idea, which Britt immediately shot down. My next suggestion was to adjust the effective level of the character based upon something more easily measured, but somewhat removed, from crafting. Read the thread, please. This one. STOP IT. Stop advocating for this unattainable goal of "balance" amongst characters. I will gently suggest that this steps outside the bounds of assertive discussion and/or debate. Unless we standardize every single LG character, characters are going to be different from each other!!! Yes, indeed they are. Viva la differance! Does it really impose so dearly on your enjoyment of the campaign when someone else has a higher gp value than you? Have you considered just accepting it, instead of advocating that the campaign leadership slap more and more restrictions on us? You misunderstand my motivation. First off, this doesn't stem, at all, from my characters at all. Investigating my character lead me to the Character Wealth by Level standard. That is one (one) measure of a character's power. I value that balance because it is tied to the balance of the character level, APL, CR, and EL system. That system is vital to providing appropriate challenge levels, as the game is designed, and as the campaign strives to implement. Second, I have not advocated any restrictions within the context of this thread. Rather, I have advocated a way of removing restrictions by allowing players to make choices about their characters. Wealth balance to character level is one of the hallmarks that this campaign uses in designing reward to risk. My proposals in this thread stem from the idea of allowing player to choose a character design that allows flexibility...more stuff or less stuff at a given character level, but adjusting the alignment of the challenge via the APL. LG characters are not standardized. As long as they are not standardized, this vision of "balance" will never be met. So stop asking for it! No, they aren't standardized, and no one has suggested that they are or should be. Balancing power to challenge, however, is a goal in the campaign. Balancing risk, reward, power, and challenge has been a design goal in DnD since the beginning. It takes regular tweaks to accomplish. Success is measured by the level of disbalance that results(which will always exist), not the absence of disbalance (which likely never will). David
Mattastrophic 04-17-07, 04:37 PM	Actually, there is such a standard, and it is embedded in the campaign structure. Except, we don't use it. This isn't Xen'drik Expeditions, where we're tied to a wealth-by-level chart. I tossed out an idea, which Britt immediately shot down. My next suggestion was to adjust the effective level of the character based upon something more easily measured, but somewhat removed, from crafting. Read the thread, please. This one. Oh, I read it. The concept of a Wiz8 counting as a 12th-level character (which was where I myself was at at about March of 2006 wealth-wise) because he decided not to buy consumables and took Craft Wondrous at 3rd... that's so far out there I didn't comment on it. And yes, that's quite a hefty restriction. My proposed solution is quite simple: live with it. Does it sound contrary to the principles of assertive debate? Yes. Why? Because chasing "balance" is a bad road to go down. It's caused several elements of the game to be removed, and I only see the spiral continuing, as the "outer edges of balance" are constantly trimmed away, until half the game is Closed. So I say... STOP. Just accept it and play the game! -Matt
Howie23 04-17-07, 04:53 PM	Except, we don't use it. This isn't Xen'drik Expeditions, where we're tied to a wealth-by-level chart. It is imbedded in the system for LG. If you don't get that, I can't help you. Oh, I read it. The concept of a Wiz8 counting as a 12th-level character (which was where I myself was at at about March of 2006 wealth-wise) because he decided not to buy consumables and took Craft Wondrous at 3rd... that's so far out there I didn't comment on it. And yes, that's quite a hefty restriction. No one said anything about 8th level character counting as 12th level. I'm not interested in further conversation of the "Here's my idea and why.." "STOP IT" variety. David