weapon focus and grapple [Archive] - Wizards Community

weapon focus and grapple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
abbadon3718
08-06-07, 11:09 PM When you take weapon focus(grapple) does it give you a +1 to your grapple checks or a +1 on the melee touch attack to initiate a grapple?
bitznarf
08-07-07, 03:16 PM ... Silly PHB.
Banor
08-07-07, 03:44 PM Had the same reaction but according to PHB you can

Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe.You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple...
bitznarf
08-07-07, 05:05 PM "You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon." As a grapple check is not an attack roll, I would add it to the melee touch attack.
Shandronas
08-08-07, 10:56 AM Likewise.
LachlarlanIII
08-08-07, 12:13 PM Grapple isn't a weapon. It's an attack option.
Banor
08-08-07, 12:15 PM Read my quote from the PHB and you will see (sadly) that you can take WF(Grapple)
abbadon3718
08-08-07, 07:14 PM Well, the first thing you do in a successful grapple after the melee touch attack is deal damage EQUIVALENT to an unarmed strike. This implies that it is not an actual unarmed strike, hence the equivalent, and therefore grapple does have it's own damage like a weapon. Why then would WS not add to the unarmed damage from the grapple?
KarmaInferno
08-09-07, 01:47 PM Because we're not talking about Weapon Specialization.

I'm fairly certain that most judges would let you get the +2 to the damage rolls, because they ARE damage rolls so WS would apply.

The discussion is on Weapon Focus.

The problem here is that a Grapple Check is, by the rules, not an attack nor a weapon, so where does the +1 to the weapon attack roll go to?

-karma
dragon2007
08-09-07, 07:02 PM Weapon Focus (Grapple) adds a +1 to your grapple check, not the unarmed attack; otherwise, why does the PH also state you can take Weapon Focus (Unarmed)?
bitznarf
08-09-07, 07:47 PM Weapon Focus (Grapple) adds a +1 to your grapple check, not the unarmed attack; otherwise, why does the PH also state you can take Weapon Focus (Unarmed)?
'Grapple' is not an attack roll, therefor '+1 to attack rolls' doesn't do a thing. And you can try to start a grapple with more than just your unarmed attack. Weapon Focus(unarmed) would add to several things, including melee touch attacks used to try to start a grapple. Why does the PHB have a silly feat option? I don't know, the same reason there are many of the other irregularities in the rules.
abbadon3718
08-09-07, 07:53 PM Well, I think that weapon focus(unarmed strike) applies to an actual unarmed melee attack. The redundancy would be weapon focus(touch) which could be used on the melee touch attack to initiate the grapple AND on touch spells or anything else that requires a melee touch attack. If weapon focus(grapple) provides a +1 to the melee touch attack to initiate a grapple, but not other touch attacks, then it is quite inferior. It would be a prerequisite to WS(grapple) though. This would be one point on the argument for +1 to grapple check argument because otherwise it should be WF(touch) instead of WF(grapple) to add to the melee touch attack.
bitznarf
08-09-07, 07:59 PM To be honest it doesn't even make sense that you can select WF(grapple), it simply shouldn't be an option. Thats what Improved Grapple is for. And the best way I can think of to apply the feat is to the melee touch attack. Is it a weaker feat than many others? Yes. But remember that Toughness exists.
abbadon3718
08-09-07, 08:08 PM You are right, it doesn't make much sense. Then again, how many things can you think of off the top of your head that don't make sense in 3.5? It would make more sense if the damage you dealt in a grapple WAS unarmed strike damage instead of the equivalent of unarmed strike damage. As far as I know, there is no WF(disarm) or WF(trip), but phb does say WF(grapple). On a side note, toughness can be taken multiple times, does not require a base fort save +2 prerequisite(so it can be taken at 1st level by anyone), and is actually better then improved toughness until lvl 4. So I'm not convinced by the "toughness exists" point.
KShaver
08-10-07, 02:30 PM While I know it doesn't actually solve the PHB problem, the CW sets the precedent of adding it to the grapple check with the mancatcher. The mancatcher allows your weapon focus (as well as the weapon's enhancement bonus) to be used as a bonus to your grapple checks.
abbadon3718
08-10-07, 07:15 PM That's a very interesting point Fauxknight, thank you for bringing it up. I completely overlooked that item. I wish my scorpion claws said that in their description.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
abbadon3718 08-06-07, 11:09 PM	When you take weapon focus(grapple) does it give you a +1 to your grapple checks or a +1 on the melee touch attack to initiate a grapple?
bitznarf 08-07-07, 03:16 PM	... Silly PHB.
Banor 08-07-07, 03:44 PM	Had the same reaction but according to PHB you can Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe.You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple...
bitznarf 08-07-07, 05:05 PM	"You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon." As a grapple check is not an attack roll, I would add it to the melee touch attack.
Shandronas 08-08-07, 10:56 AM	Likewise.
LachlarlanIII 08-08-07, 12:13 PM	Grapple isn't a weapon. It's an attack option.
Banor 08-08-07, 12:15 PM	Read my quote from the PHB and you will see (sadly) that you can take WF(Grapple)
abbadon3718 08-08-07, 07:14 PM	Well, the first thing you do in a successful grapple after the melee touch attack is deal damage EQUIVALENT to an unarmed strike. This implies that it is not an actual unarmed strike, hence the equivalent, and therefore grapple does have it's own damage like a weapon. Why then would WS not add to the unarmed damage from the grapple?
KarmaInferno 08-09-07, 01:47 PM	Because we're not talking about Weapon Specialization. I'm fairly certain that most judges would let you get the +2 to the damage rolls, because they ARE damage rolls so WS would apply. The discussion is on Weapon Focus. The problem here is that a Grapple Check is, by the rules, not an attack nor a weapon, so where does the +1 to the weapon attack roll go to? -karma
dragon2007 08-09-07, 07:02 PM	Weapon Focus (Grapple) adds a +1 to your grapple check, not the unarmed attack; otherwise, why does the PH also state you can take Weapon Focus (Unarmed)?
bitznarf 08-09-07, 07:47 PM	Weapon Focus (Grapple) adds a +1 to your grapple check, not the unarmed attack; otherwise, why does the PH also state you can take Weapon Focus (Unarmed)? 'Grapple' is not an attack roll, therefor '+1 to attack rolls' doesn't do a thing. And you can try to start a grapple with more than just your unarmed attack. Weapon Focus(unarmed) would add to several things, including melee touch attacks used to try to start a grapple. Why does the PHB have a silly feat option? I don't know, the same reason there are many of the other irregularities in the rules.
abbadon3718 08-09-07, 07:53 PM	Well, I think that weapon focus(unarmed strike) applies to an actual unarmed melee attack. The redundancy would be weapon focus(touch) which could be used on the melee touch attack to initiate the grapple AND on touch spells or anything else that requires a melee touch attack. If weapon focus(grapple) provides a +1 to the melee touch attack to initiate a grapple, but not other touch attacks, then it is quite inferior. It would be a prerequisite to WS(grapple) though. This would be one point on the argument for +1 to grapple check argument because otherwise it should be WF(touch) instead of WF(grapple) to add to the melee touch attack.
bitznarf 08-09-07, 07:59 PM	To be honest it doesn't even make sense that you can select WF(grapple), it simply shouldn't be an option. Thats what Improved Grapple is for. And the best way I can think of to apply the feat is to the melee touch attack. Is it a weaker feat than many others? Yes. But remember that Toughness exists.
abbadon3718 08-09-07, 08:08 PM	You are right, it doesn't make much sense. Then again, how many things can you think of off the top of your head that don't make sense in 3.5? It would make more sense if the damage you dealt in a grapple WAS unarmed strike damage instead of the equivalent of unarmed strike damage. As far as I know, there is no WF(disarm) or WF(trip), but phb does say WF(grapple). On a side note, toughness can be taken multiple times, does not require a base fort save +2 prerequisite(so it can be taken at 1st level by anyone), and is actually better then improved toughness until lvl 4. So I'm not convinced by the "toughness exists" point.
KShaver 08-10-07, 02:30 PM	While I know it doesn't actually solve the PHB problem, the CW sets the precedent of adding it to the grapple check with the mancatcher. The mancatcher allows your weapon focus (as well as the weapon's enhancement bonus) to be used as a bonus to your grapple checks.
abbadon3718 08-10-07, 07:15 PM	That's a very interesting point Fauxknight, thank you for bringing it up. I completely overlooked that item. I wish my scorpion claws said that in their description.