Weapon Shift [Archive] - Wizards Community

Weapon Shift [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
haferka
11-02-06, 10:59 AM yeah... I found a way to get a wooden lance...

+1 Club + Weapon Shift Spell + Spikes + Charge = +1 Wooden Lance with lots of damage potential.

As a bard, I purchased a spellbook for access to "Weapon Shift", am I correct in my assumption that I can now sell it back for half price and maintain that access to the spell?
Arvagor
11-02-06, 12:21 PM yeah... I found a way to get a wooden lance...

+1 Club + Weapon Shift Spell + Spikes + Charge = +1 Wooden Lance with lots of damage potential.
Those with more historical background than I can correct me but, isn't a lance already a (predominantly) wooden weapon, generally with a metal reinforced tip? So yeah, too bad about needing that "wooden striking surface" thing for spikes/brambles to work... ;)

And what the hell is a bard doing wasting his time on mounted combat???
haferka
11-02-06, 02:12 PM correct. It needs a wooden striking surface.

Weapon shift does NOT change the weapons material... but the weapon functions normally.

:)

so, a club becomes a lance which can take the spikes spell.
Howie23
11-02-06, 02:58 PM Weapon shift does NOT change the weapons material... but the weapon functions normally.

Where do you get that the material does not change? The example text talks about a club becoming a greatsword. Are you suggesting that a wooden club becomes a wooden greatsword, or that a steel dagger would become a steel longbow?

David
haferka
11-02-06, 03:00 PM Its magic..(thus in this case..yes a steal bow would still function as a bow, it would just have a better hardness than normal) the spell states that the material does NOT change.
Howie23
11-02-06, 03:20 PM Its magic..(thus in this case..yes a steal bow would still function as a bow, it would just have a better hardness than normal) the spell states that the material does NOT change.

No, it says that weapons made from special materials retain their special materials. Wood is not a special material.

David
Howie23
11-02-06, 04:09 PM As a bard, I purchased a spellbook for access to "Weapon Shift", am I correct in my assumption that I can now sell it back for half price and maintain that access to the spell?

You need to keep it until you learn it as one of your second level spells.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgif/20060921a

Once you make it one of your known 2nd level spells, you can sell it and keep the access. Just don't die. :)

David
haferka
11-02-06, 05:02 PM No, it says that weapons made from special materials retain their special materials. Wood is not a special material.

David

Wrong, wood is very special... Any Druid will tell you that!

Actually, I guess I need to ask the local triad.. but I was curious if any other triad or circle members had ruled on this?
_m_
11-02-06, 05:49 PM Those with more historical background than I can correct me but, isn't a lance already a (predominantly) wooden weapon, generally with a metal reinforced tip? So yeah, too bad about needing that "wooden striking surface" thing for spikes/brambles to work... ;)

And what the hell is a bard doing wasting his time on mounted combat???

does anyone have any idea how utterly imposible a non wooden lance would be to use? not only would it way about a ton or so... but if it wasnt wooden, had no give, and wouldnt break... you'd un-horse yourself when you hit something solid.

so in other words yes... lances were always wooden.
haferka
11-02-06, 09:07 PM does anyone have any idea how utterly imposible a non wooden lance would be to use? not only would it way about a ton or so... but if it wasnt wooden, had no give, and wouldnt break... you'd un-horse yourself when you hit something solid.

so in other words yes... lances were always wooden.

Correct, but.. the point of the striking surface of the standard lance is metal. Normally a lance can Not recieve a Spikes spell, due to its non-wooden striking surface.

Since the Weapon Shift spell states that the weapon changes form but maintains its "special" material properties. I interpret this to mean that the weapons material does NOT change... the spell reshapes it into a new weapon and temporarily grants it the ability to function as that weapon.

So an Adamantine Axe could become an Adamantine Greatbow, or a shortbow could become a wooden whip, etc...
_m_
11-02-06, 09:32 PM all that aside... what the hell is the point in all this? if you just powere attacked without being a bard and casting alot of time consuming spells on your lance...
Gwumph
11-02-06, 09:40 PM While we are on this topic.....

Has anyone ever seen access to an ironwood weapon. not the spell.

but access for a non-druid character. i.e. favor of a druid to make a permanent masterwork ironwood weapon for you.

This access would have to be either core or perrenland since I will never be playing any other mods

(although Ratik is a very woody area, it would be a perfect favor for a ratik mod)

and again, I don't want to know the mods name, just that it is currently playable (so i have hope!!)

Cheers
Gwumph
_m_
11-02-06, 09:42 PM why do you want one?
Gwumph
11-02-06, 10:17 PM So I can get an Ironwood Lance!!:)

Me and our party druid are very tight.

a 5th level druid casting brambles on an Ironwood lance would pump my damage up to 70-75 points range per charge!! (i am currently 4lv and during roughly 55 per charge)

The whole party breathes a sigh of relief when Gwumph connects with a spirited charge on a BBEG.
_m_
11-02-06, 10:21 PM BBEG breathes a sigh of relief when Gwumph's horse takes 16 damage and dies :D

sorry, couldnt resist.
Arvagor
11-02-06, 10:35 PM I'm so glad my druid just made 3rd level...

Me: "No, I will not cast brambles on your great club."
BDF: "Why not?"
Me: "Didn't you know? Every time a druid casts brambles, a celestial dies." :weep:
_m_
11-02-06, 10:45 PM a celestial dies." :weep:

Wait... and thats a bad thing?
Gwumph
11-02-06, 11:10 PM BBEG breathes a sigh of relief when Gwumph's horse takes 16 damage and dies :D

sorry, couldnt resist.

NP Between reach and RBA I stand a good chance (anyways the BBEG is usually dead after first charge :) )

on the other hand all the baddies seem to ignore my riding dog in favor of attacking the pint sized Halfling (its almost as they suspect I have the mounted combat feat!!)
Arvagor
11-02-06, 11:21 PM Wait... and thats a bad thing?Are you sure you're not from the Empire of Iuz, _m_?

Oh wait, Perrenland... For a Velunan, that's close enough... :P
_m_
11-03-06, 12:07 AM its not important where im from... whats important is who i killed while i was there :angelhide
Gelth
11-03-06, 03:00 PM I've never seen a ruling anywhere on whether lances are wooden or not. The rules don't say one way or the other, nor do they specify on the striking surface.
For a long time I had a darkwood lance, and I've seen adamantine lance access, as far as I can tell lances can be wooden or not as you choose.
Disclaimer: I havea 13th level Cavalier with lance... and I think I've had Brambles or Spikes cast a grand total of once ever.

--Penn, Ket Triad
Gwumph
11-03-06, 03:49 PM I think it depends on who u game with.

Here in Bangkok Thailand, its a pretty core group. So I can say that 9 out 10 times mod i play will be with my druid mate.

he give me brambles and in return i heal is animal companion.

i also introduce him to any lovely young ladies i know in RL :)

win-win for both of us!
DragonKnight82
11-03-06, 04:11 PM I've never seen a ruling anywhere on whether lances are wooden or not. The rules don't say one way or the other, nor do they specify on the striking surface.
For a long time I had a darkwood lance, and I've seen adamantine lance access, as far as I can tell lances can be wooden or not as you choose.
Disclaimer: I havea 13th level Cavalier with lance... and I think I've had Brambles or Spikes cast a grand total of once ever.

--Penn, Ket Triad

Well, if you want an historical point of view, the entirety of a lance except for the tip (striking area for D&D purposes) was made of wood. The tip was capped with either iron or steel so as to better penetrate armor.

The illustration of a Heavy Lance in the PHB on page 115 seems to be drawn this way, so I would personally rule that anything requiring a wooden striking area would fail if used on a lance, but that's just me.

If you were to use an Ironwood spell, with the proper ranks in Craft Weaponsmith I would certainly allow for that to be Spiked/ Brambled.
Arvagor
11-03-06, 04:12 PM I've never seen a ruling anywhere on whether lances are wooden or not. The rules don't say one way or the other, nor do they specify on the striking surface.Nor do the rules say that swords are made of metal, yet common sense dictates we follow their traditional, "real-world" design, and craft them as such. In fact, as far as I can tell, the only weapon that specifically states what material it is made of is the gauntlet ("This metal glove ...").

Similarly, I suppose by their name we can infer that a light or heavy wooden shield is made of wood, and a light or heavy steel shield is made of steel; bucklers' ("This small metal shield ...") and tower shields' ("This massive wooden shield ...") composition are also clear. Some armors ar obvious (leather, studded leather, hide), but there's nothing that states full plate, for example, must be made of metal...

If a weapon/armor doesn't say what it's made out of, then we must assume it is the same as the traditional item; for a lance, that means wooden construction, since a combat lance was/is nothing more than a stout spear (the lances depicted in the PHB are jousting lances, and would likely have never seen true combat).

The illustration of a Heavy Lance in the PHB on page 115 seems to be drawn this way, so I would personally rule that anything requiring a wooden striking area would fail if used on a lance, but that's just me.Of course, we don't have "heavy" or "light" lances at all in the PHB, just the single lance entry, so which one is the illo. supposed to be? (I've been told that the two separate items existed in 3.0, but as I've never played under that ruleset, I can't rightly say...)

Edit: Given the damage and crit range of a lance in the PHB (1d8, x3), it makes sense that the lance is nothing more than a long spear, or even a slightly sturdier longspear (also 1d8, x3).
DragonKnight82
11-03-06, 05:11 PM Nor do the rules say that swords are made of metal, yet common sense dictates we follow their traditional, "real-world" design, and craft them as such.

Agreed.

If a weapon/armor doesn't say what it's made out of, then we must assume it is the same as the traditional item

Also agreed.

for a lance, that means wooden construction, since a combat lance was/is nothing more than a stout spear (the lances depicted in the PHB are jousting lances, and would likely have never seen true combat).

Incorrect. A Lance was primarily constructed of wood, yes. Ash was preferred, but Cedar and Poplar were also used. For a combat lance the tip was capped with a small metal tip, similar to a spear head.

During jousting tournaments the lance was fitted with a Coronal, a crown shaped metal cap consisting of three or more blunted metal prongs, so that the lance would catch on your opponents shield and make it much easier to unhorse him, or break a lance on him, both of which scored highly in the tournaments.

Of course, we don't have "heavy" or "light" lances at all in the PHB, just the single lance entry, so which one is the illo. supposed to be? (I've been told that the two separate items existed in 3.0, but as I've never played under that ruleset, I can't rightly say...)

The illustrations were carried over from 3.0, when Heavy and Light lances were in D&D. The two lance approach in 3.0 was certainly more historically accurate, but since no one ever used the light version, and with the new weapon size rules, it wasn't needed in 3.5. The fact that it still says Heavy Lance in the PHB is nothing more than a copy-paste error.

Edit: Given the damage and crit range of a lance in the PHB (1d8, x3), it makes sense that the lance is nothing more than a long spear, or even a slightly sturdier longspear (also 1d8, x3).

You're more right than you know :). Historically, the earlier lances were nothing more than longspears and could be used just as easily on foot as on horseback. As the lance evolved through the Middle Ages, it became the weapon that most people think of when the word lance is used today. It also became too unwieldy to be used in any way other than on horseback.
Gelth
11-09-06, 02:47 PM You're more right than you know :). Historically, the earlier lances were nothing more than longspears and could be used just as easily on foot as on horseback. As the lance evolved through the Middle Ages, it became the weapon that most people think of when the word lance is used today. It also became too unwieldy to be used in any way other than on horseback.

And, seeing as the lance in D&D can be used on foot, it is presumably the earlier lance you speak of, more like a spear?
As I said, I've never seen anything definitive one way or the other on whether lances have a metal tip, so I pretty much leave it up to the player. If you want your lance metal-tipped, go ahead. If not, good for you.

--Penn, Ket Triad

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
haferka 11-02-06, 10:59 AM	yeah... I found a way to get a wooden lance... +1 Club + Weapon Shift Spell + Spikes + Charge = +1 Wooden Lance with lots of damage potential. As a bard, I purchased a spellbook for access to "Weapon Shift", am I correct in my assumption that I can now sell it back for half price and maintain that access to the spell?
Arvagor 11-02-06, 12:21 PM	yeah... I found a way to get a wooden lance... +1 Club + Weapon Shift Spell + Spikes + Charge = +1 Wooden Lance with lots of damage potential. Those with more historical background than I can correct me but, isn't a lance already a (predominantly) wooden weapon, generally with a metal reinforced tip? So yeah, too bad about needing that "wooden striking surface" thing for spikes/brambles to work... ;) And what the hell is a bard doing wasting his time on mounted combat???
haferka 11-02-06, 02:12 PM	correct. It needs a wooden striking surface. Weapon shift does NOT change the weapons material... but the weapon functions normally. :) so, a club becomes a lance which can take the spikes spell.
Howie23 11-02-06, 02:58 PM	Weapon shift does NOT change the weapons material... but the weapon functions normally. Where do you get that the material does not change? The example text talks about a club becoming a greatsword. Are you suggesting that a wooden club becomes a wooden greatsword, or that a steel dagger would become a steel longbow? David
haferka 11-02-06, 03:00 PM	Its magic..(thus in this case..yes a steal bow would still function as a bow, it would just have a better hardness than normal) the spell states that the material does NOT change.
Howie23 11-02-06, 03:20 PM	Its magic..(thus in this case..yes a steal bow would still function as a bow, it would just have a better hardness than normal) the spell states that the material does NOT change. No, it says that weapons made from special materials retain their special materials. Wood is not a special material. David
Howie23 11-02-06, 04:09 PM	As a bard, I purchased a spellbook for access to "Weapon Shift", am I correct in my assumption that I can now sell it back for half price and maintain that access to the spell? You need to keep it until you learn it as one of your second level spells. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgif/20060921a Once you make it one of your known 2nd level spells, you can sell it and keep the access. Just don't die. :) David
haferka 11-02-06, 05:02 PM	No, it says that weapons made from special materials retain their special materials. Wood is not a special material. David Wrong, wood is very special... Any Druid will tell you that! Actually, I guess I need to ask the local triad.. but I was curious if any other triad or circle members had ruled on this?
_m_ 11-02-06, 05:49 PM	Those with more historical background than I can correct me but, isn't a lance already a (predominantly) wooden weapon, generally with a metal reinforced tip? So yeah, too bad about needing that "wooden striking surface" thing for spikes/brambles to work... ;) And what the hell is a bard doing wasting his time on mounted combat??? does anyone have any idea how utterly imposible a non wooden lance would be to use? not only would it way about a ton or so... but if it wasnt wooden, had no give, and wouldnt break... you'd un-horse yourself when you hit something solid. so in other words yes... lances were always wooden.
haferka 11-02-06, 09:07 PM	does anyone have any idea how utterly imposible a non wooden lance would be to use? not only would it way about a ton or so... but if it wasnt wooden, had no give, and wouldnt break... you'd un-horse yourself when you hit something solid. so in other words yes... lances were always wooden. Correct, but.. the point of the striking surface of the standard lance is metal. Normally a lance can Not recieve a Spikes spell, due to its non-wooden striking surface. Since the Weapon Shift spell states that the weapon changes form but maintains its "special" material properties. I interpret this to mean that the weapons material does NOT change... the spell reshapes it into a new weapon and temporarily grants it the ability to function as that weapon. So an Adamantine Axe could become an Adamantine Greatbow, or a shortbow could become a wooden whip, etc...
_m_ 11-02-06, 09:32 PM	all that aside... what the hell is the point in all this? if you just powere attacked without being a bard and casting alot of time consuming spells on your lance...
Gwumph 11-02-06, 09:40 PM	While we are on this topic..... Has anyone ever seen access to an ironwood weapon. not the spell. but access for a non-druid character. i.e. favor of a druid to make a permanent masterwork ironwood weapon for you. This access would have to be either core or perrenland since I will never be playing any other mods (although Ratik is a very woody area, it would be a perfect favor for a ratik mod) and again, I don't want to know the mods name, just that it is currently playable (so i have hope!!) Cheers Gwumph
_m_ 11-02-06, 09:42 PM	why do you want one?
Gwumph 11-02-06, 10:17 PM	So I can get an Ironwood Lance!!:) Me and our party druid are very tight. a 5th level druid casting brambles on an Ironwood lance would pump my damage up to 70-75 points range per charge!! (i am currently 4lv and during roughly 55 per charge) The whole party breathes a sigh of relief when Gwumph connects with a spirited charge on a BBEG.
_m_ 11-02-06, 10:21 PM	BBEG breathes a sigh of relief when Gwumph's horse takes 16 damage and dies :D sorry, couldnt resist.
Arvagor 11-02-06, 10:35 PM	I'm so glad my druid just made 3rd level... Me: "No, I will not cast brambles on your great club." BDF: "Why not?" Me: "Didn't you know? Every time a druid casts brambles, a celestial dies." :weep:
_m_ 11-02-06, 10:45 PM	a celestial dies." :weep: Wait... and thats a bad thing?
Gwumph 11-02-06, 11:10 PM	BBEG breathes a sigh of relief when Gwumph's horse takes 16 damage and dies :D sorry, couldnt resist. NP Between reach and RBA I stand a good chance (anyways the BBEG is usually dead after first charge :) ) on the other hand all the baddies seem to ignore my riding dog in favor of attacking the pint sized Halfling (its almost as they suspect I have the mounted combat feat!!)
Arvagor 11-02-06, 11:21 PM	Wait... and thats a bad thing?Are you sure you're not from the Empire of Iuz, _m_? Oh wait, Perrenland... For a Velunan, that's close enough... :P
_m_ 11-03-06, 12:07 AM	its not important where im from... whats important is who i killed while i was there :angelhide
Gelth 11-03-06, 03:00 PM	I've never seen a ruling anywhere on whether lances are wooden or not. The rules don't say one way or the other, nor do they specify on the striking surface. For a long time I had a darkwood lance, and I've seen adamantine lance access, as far as I can tell lances can be wooden or not as you choose. Disclaimer: I havea 13th level Cavalier with lance... and I think I've had Brambles or Spikes cast a grand total of once ever. --Penn, Ket Triad
Gwumph 11-03-06, 03:49 PM	I think it depends on who u game with. Here in Bangkok Thailand, its a pretty core group. So I can say that 9 out 10 times mod i play will be with my druid mate. he give me brambles and in return i heal is animal companion. i also introduce him to any lovely young ladies i know in RL :) win-win for both of us!
DragonKnight82 11-03-06, 04:11 PM	I've never seen a ruling anywhere on whether lances are wooden or not. The rules don't say one way or the other, nor do they specify on the striking surface. For a long time I had a darkwood lance, and I've seen adamantine lance access, as far as I can tell lances can be wooden or not as you choose. Disclaimer: I havea 13th level Cavalier with lance... and I think I've had Brambles or Spikes cast a grand total of once ever. --Penn, Ket Triad Well, if you want an historical point of view, the entirety of a lance except for the tip (striking area for D&D purposes) was made of wood. The tip was capped with either iron or steel so as to better penetrate armor. The illustration of a Heavy Lance in the PHB on page 115 seems to be drawn this way, so I would personally rule that anything requiring a wooden striking area would fail if used on a lance, but that's just me. If you were to use an Ironwood spell, with the proper ranks in Craft Weaponsmith I would certainly allow for that to be Spiked/ Brambled.
Arvagor 11-03-06, 04:12 PM	I've never seen a ruling anywhere on whether lances are wooden or not. The rules don't say one way or the other, nor do they specify on the striking surface.Nor do the rules say that swords are made of metal, yet common sense dictates we follow their traditional, "real-world" design, and craft them as such. In fact, as far as I can tell, the only weapon that specifically states what material it is made of is the gauntlet ("This metal glove ..."). Similarly, I suppose by their name we can infer that a light or heavy wooden shield is made of wood, and a light or heavy steel shield is made of steel; bucklers' ("This small metal shield ...") and tower shields' ("This massive wooden shield ...") composition are also clear. Some armors ar obvious (leather, studded leather, hide), but there's nothing that states full plate, for example, must be made of metal... If a weapon/armor doesn't say what it's made out of, then we must assume it is the same as the traditional item; for a lance, that means wooden construction, since a combat lance was/is nothing more than a stout spear (the lances depicted in the PHB are jousting lances, and would likely have never seen true combat). The illustration of a Heavy Lance in the PHB on page 115 seems to be drawn this way, so I would personally rule that anything requiring a wooden striking area would fail if used on a lance, but that's just me.Of course, we don't have "heavy" or "light" lances at all in the PHB, just the single lance entry, so which one is the illo. supposed to be? (I've been told that the two separate items existed in 3.0, but as I've never played under that ruleset, I can't rightly say...) Edit: Given the damage and crit range of a lance in the PHB (1d8, x3), it makes sense that the lance is nothing more than a long spear, or even a slightly sturdier longspear (also 1d8, x3).
DragonKnight82 11-03-06, 05:11 PM	Nor do the rules say that swords are made of metal, yet common sense dictates we follow their traditional, "real-world" design, and craft them as such. Agreed. If a weapon/armor doesn't say what it's made out of, then we must assume it is the same as the traditional item Also agreed. for a lance, that means wooden construction, since a combat lance was/is nothing more than a stout spear (the lances depicted in the PHB are jousting lances, and would likely have never seen true combat). Incorrect. A Lance was primarily constructed of wood, yes. Ash was preferred, but Cedar and Poplar were also used. For a combat lance the tip was capped with a small metal tip, similar to a spear head. During jousting tournaments the lance was fitted with a Coronal, a crown shaped metal cap consisting of three or more blunted metal prongs, so that the lance would catch on your opponents shield and make it much easier to unhorse him, or break a lance on him, both of which scored highly in the tournaments. Of course, we don't have "heavy" or "light" lances at all in the PHB, just the single lance entry, so which one is the illo. supposed to be? (I've been told that the two separate items existed in 3.0, but as I've never played under that ruleset, I can't rightly say...) The illustrations were carried over from 3.0, when Heavy and Light lances were in D&D. The two lance approach in 3.0 was certainly more historically accurate, but since no one ever used the light version, and with the new weapon size rules, it wasn't needed in 3.5. The fact that it still says Heavy Lance in the PHB is nothing more than a copy-paste error. Edit: Given the damage and crit range of a lance in the PHB (1d8, x3), it makes sense that the lance is nothing more than a long spear, or even a slightly sturdier longspear (also 1d8, x3). You're more right than you know :). Historically, the earlier lances were nothing more than longspears and could be used just as easily on foot as on horseback. As the lance evolved through the Middle Ages, it became the weapon that most people think of when the word lance is used today. It also became too unwieldy to be used in any way other than on horseback.
Gelth 11-09-06, 02:47 PM	You're more right than you know :). Historically, the earlier lances were nothing more than longspears and could be used just as easily on foot as on horseback. As the lance evolved through the Middle Ages, it became the weapon that most people think of when the word lance is used today. It also became too unwieldy to be used in any way other than on horseback. And, seeing as the lance in D&D can be used on foot, it is presumably the earlier lance you speak of, more like a spear? As I said, I've never seen anything definitive one way or the other on whether lances have a metal tip, so I pretty much leave it up to the player. If you want your lance metal-tipped, go ahead. If not, good for you. --Penn, Ket Triad