Web + Fire? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Web + Fire? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rerednaw
08-29-07, 09:25 AM A Web spell has been cast.

Someone tries to free themselves or others by using fire. Say Flaming Sphere, fiery arrows (mundane or magical), or even a torch.

Does the fire spread, propogate or only clear the square targeted with fire? I've seen it played both ways at tables.

Anyone?
Arvagor
08-29-07, 09:35 AM I've always played it as just the targeted square is cleared. Though webs are flammable (in RL terms), they don't (IMO) really burn with flame the way paper, wood, etc. do -- it's more akin to the way a cigarette burns, like smoldering...

That being said, I'd allow something like a fire elemental, or a thoqqua, to move freely through the web, essentially clearing the squares it moves through... A flaming sphere, OTOH, doesn't seem to take up enough space in a square (none, really, since it can occupy a square with another creature in it already) to effectively clear it for a typical PC to then move through unimpeded...
Zanzibax
08-29-07, 02:40 PM I've always played it as just the targeted square is cleared. Though webs are flammable (in RL terms), they don't (IMO) really burn with flame the way paper, wood, etc. do -- it's more akin to the way a cigarette burns, like smoldering...

That being said, I'd allow something like a fire elemental, or a thoqqua, to move freely through the web, essentially clearing the squares it moves through... A flaming sphere, OTOH, doesn't seem to take up enough space in a square (none, really, since it can occupy a square with another creature in it already) to effectively clear it for a typical PC to then move through unimpeded...

You need more spiderwebs under your porch.

Something so thick that they all become interleaved. :schemes:

A match on that could wind up torching your entire house.

Been there...done that...in RL...it clears everything...and it isn't healthy.
Zanzibax
08-29-07, 03:01 PM Let me find something you can more readily trust:

http://www.etinational.com/docs/Red%20Book%20Revision%209-2004.pdf

26. Cob webs (yes, spider webs) are FLAMMABLE and EXPLOSIVE, and will nurture a fire. Sweep cob webs from rafters, walls, and fixtures often.

http://japundit.com/archives/2005/11/30/1621/

A fire department Koga, Ibaraki Prefecture found itself in an embarrassing predicament recently when it was the first to arrive at a blaze only to find that it did not have any water in the tank of its truck.

The water apparently had been drained from the tank for a maintenance inspection.

The fire started in a restaurant when its owner lit a rolled-up newspaper, which he then tried to use to burn cobwebs outs of a storage facility. . . Which, come to think of it, is just as wacky as a fire truck showing up to a fire without any water!

Legalese:

http://www.lawskills.com/case/ga/id/52905/
Defendant's contentions to the contrary notwithstanding, competent evidence of causation was presented. At the time of the fire, Willie Wimberly, defendant's employee, stated to an investigating fire officer that the fire started after Wimberly attempted to burn cobwebs with a gasoline torch. This testimony was probative evidence of the fire's causation, properly admitted as part of the res gestae.
Enjoy
awroe
08-29-07, 03:03 PM A Web spell has been cast.

Someone tries to free themselves or others by using fire. Say Flaming Sphere, fiery arrows (mundane or magical), or even a torch.

Does the fire spread, propogate or only clear the square targeted with fire? I've seen it played both ways at tables.

Anyone?

Expect Table Variation.
Zanzibax
08-29-07, 03:04 PM This is kinda fun:

http://www.infohorse.com/barnfires.asp

A broom and rake are the two best fire prevention tools a horse owner can have. Maintaining a clean barn is excellent fire protection that requires little daily effort. Get rid of cobwebs hanging from the rafters. Sure, after a few days they'll all magically reappear, but keep after them. Cobwebs provide excellent pathways along which flame can travel--so quickly that in seconds fire will have spread from one end of the barn to the other. In addition, flaming pieces of cobwebs falling into stalls will start new fires.

But I have to get back to cleaning the house...ironically enough.
Zanzibax
08-29-07, 03:08 PM Expect Table Variation.

Yes...definitely expect table variation in those regions where few spiderwebs or cobwebs ever collect.

Some people just don't know.
Arvagor
08-29-07, 03:14 PM You need more spiderwebs under your porch.

Something so thick that they all become interleaved. :schemes:I stand corrected -- many times over (for RL cobwebs at least ;) ). What can I say, other than I sweep regularly...
Zanzibax
08-29-07, 03:20 PM I stand corrected -- many times over (for RL cobwebs at least ;) ). What can I say, other than I sweep regularly...

Just don't call me pyro...after I charred the underside of the 2nd floor of our barn, I got out of the habit.

:mage:

Honest!
Rerednaw
08-29-07, 03:31 PM Hmm, so it is still ETV? I was hoping for a FAQ/errata somewhere.

Considering the Web spell states the the strands are like spider silk would be an argument for propogation. Except nowhere in the spell description is this mentioned. If a torch can only clear 5 square feet in a single round, then how does that translate to catching on fire and spreading?

Oh well, guess I'll stick with ETV.
Zanzibax
08-29-07, 03:38 PM Hmm, so it is still ETV? I was hoping for a FAQ/errata somewhere.

Considering the Web spell states the the strands are like spider silk would be an argument for propogation. Except nowhere in the spell description is this mentioned. If a torch can only clear 5 square feet in a single round, then how does that translate to catching on fire and spreading?

Oh well, guess I'll stick with ETV.

Considering that in RL, a 40x40x40 area festooned with webs thick enough to capture and hold several grown men and even an elephant would burn so fast that it would explode if set alight...you'll have to expect table variation.

5x5x5 in 1 round...feh.
Arvagor
08-29-07, 03:49 PM Hmm, so it is still ETV? I was hoping for a FAQ/errata somewhere.Yeah, I don't think we're gonna get any more errata at this point ;)

I'd honestly go with whichever way the party/DM wants to go; I was just saying we've only ever played it as one square per round, but I see the argument for spreading as well.

Something like (W = web, X = fire, . = cleared):

Round 1 Round 2 Round3

W W W W W W W W W W X X X X X
W W W W W W X X X W X . . . X
W W X W W --> W X . X W --> X . . . X --> Etc.
W W W W W W X X X W X . . . X
W W W W W W W W W W X X X X X

That seems to strike a reasonable balance, IMO, between the text of the spell, and Zanzibax's "exploding webs"... :)
Sieylianna
08-29-07, 06:19 PM In 2nd edition, webs burned instantaenously. That went away with the arrival of third edition.

Ed
Hariman
08-29-07, 06:51 PM DMs in my area always go to the "Only the squares actually affected by the fire" ruling.

So torches are one square a round. (Although iterative attacks might add more, I never had iterative attacks come up.)

Burning hands would burn either six or seven squares, depending on how the cone was oriented. Fireball would burn the area of the fireball.

It saves the trouble of tracking how the fire burns or having your grey elf wizard's web go up in smoke because the rogue wanted to use an alchemist's fire.
Istaran
08-29-07, 08:01 PM Arvagor: Something like your suggestion is how I've always played it, and ad hoc'd rules regarding damage from it (basically we play it as there being a 'front' of fire. When that front passes over you, you immediately take damage but you are free of the web and no longer in risk of more fire damage unless you pass through the front again for some reason).
I have no idea how fast real webs burn, but since they're a region rich in fuel with plenty of open space for air flow I imagine it is pretty fast. Exploding seems a bit much, though not impossible. Burning webs igniting each adjacent square one round after they catch fire seems like the right balance to me: the whole thing goes in under a minute, but not instantly.
Madfox11
08-30-07, 02:47 AM Considering that in RL, a 40x40x40 area festooned with webs thick enough to capture and hold several grown men and even an elephant would burn so fast that it would explode if set alight...you'll have to expect table variation.

5x5x5 in 1 round...feh.

Comparing RL to a D&D spell are we? I suspect that the web is not even close to ordinary cobwebs, because enough cobwebs to keep everything captured (even a gargantuan creature) would likely be solid and the webs don't give that much cover ;)

Expect table variation. I personally just don't want to bother checking the progress and an instant *woosh* effect would be a little bit too effective in getting rid of a 2nd level spell (even if that spell is a tad powerful). So I just let it burn away the specific square.
Zanzibax
08-30-07, 03:49 PM I have no idea how fast real webs burn, but since they're a region rich in fuel with plenty of open space for air flow I imagine it is pretty fast. Exploding seems a bit much, though not impossible. Burning webs igniting each adjacent square one round after they catch fire seems like the right balance to me: the whole thing goes in under a minute, but not instantly.

I know how fast real webs burn!!

:detect:

The whole thing would go up so fast that you could confuse it with "instantly" quite easily.

When I lit a few webs up in my younger years, the speed at which they burned was called "Holy ****"

A line of spilled gasoline doesn't burn as fast.

I just think it's funny the different way people rule on these things when they have never burned a web themselves, nor seen how packed webs burn.
Zanzibax
08-30-07, 03:57 PM Comparing RL to a D&D spell are we? I suspect that the web is not even close to ordinary cobwebs, because enough cobwebs to keep everything captured (even a gargantuan creature) would likely be solid and the webs don't give that much cover ;)

Expect table variation. I personally just don't want to bother checking the progress and an instant *woosh* effect would be a little bit too effective in getting rid of a 2nd level spell (even if that spell is a tad powerful). So I just let it burn away the specific square.

The 2d4 damage from a fired web is definitely too low for it to be considered a real web, considering how densely packed the webbing would have to be for the amount of cover and strength of the webs that are given.
clannagh
08-30-07, 08:07 PM The webs in the game are created by a spell.

The webs in the barn in South Dakota or where-ever were created by spiders.

The way a real web burns can never be more than an indication of how it might work in the game.

Expect table Variation.
Timlagor
09-04-07, 01:11 PM It spreads at my table but I don't count on other GMs agreeing (though only because i've run into enough who don't -not that I think they are justified)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 08-29-07, 09:25 AM	A Web spell has been cast. Someone tries to free themselves or others by using fire. Say Flaming Sphere, fiery arrows (mundane or magical), or even a torch. Does the fire spread, propogate or only clear the square targeted with fire? I've seen it played both ways at tables. Anyone?
Arvagor 08-29-07, 09:35 AM	I've always played it as just the targeted square is cleared. Though webs are flammable (in RL terms), they don't (IMO) really burn with flame the way paper, wood, etc. do -- it's more akin to the way a cigarette burns, like smoldering... That being said, I'd allow something like a fire elemental, or a thoqqua, to move freely through the web, essentially clearing the squares it moves through... A flaming sphere, OTOH, doesn't seem to take up enough space in a square (none, really, since it can occupy a square with another creature in it already) to effectively clear it for a typical PC to then move through unimpeded...
Zanzibax 08-29-07, 02:40 PM	I've always played it as just the targeted square is cleared. Though webs are flammable (in RL terms), they don't (IMO) really burn with flame the way paper, wood, etc. do -- it's more akin to the way a cigarette burns, like smoldering... That being said, I'd allow something like a fire elemental, or a thoqqua, to move freely through the web, essentially clearing the squares it moves through... A flaming sphere, OTOH, doesn't seem to take up enough space in a square (none, really, since it can occupy a square with another creature in it already) to effectively clear it for a typical PC to then move through unimpeded... You need more spiderwebs under your porch. Something so thick that they all become interleaved. :schemes: A match on that could wind up torching your entire house. Been there...done that...in RL...it clears everything...and it isn't healthy.
Zanzibax 08-29-07, 03:01 PM	Let me find something you can more readily trust: http://www.etinational.com/docs/Red%20Book%20Revision%209-2004.pdf 26. Cob webs (yes, spider webs) are FLAMMABLE and EXPLOSIVE, and will nurture a fire. Sweep cob webs from rafters, walls, and fixtures often. http://japundit.com/archives/2005/11/30/1621/ A fire department Koga, Ibaraki Prefecture found itself in an embarrassing predicament recently when it was the first to arrive at a blaze only to find that it did not have any water in the tank of its truck. The water apparently had been drained from the tank for a maintenance inspection. The fire started in a restaurant when its owner lit a rolled-up newspaper, which he then tried to use to burn cobwebs outs of a storage facility. . . Which, come to think of it, is just as wacky as a fire truck showing up to a fire without any water! Legalese: http://www.lawskills.com/case/ga/id/52905/ Defendant's contentions to the contrary notwithstanding, competent evidence of causation was presented. At the time of the fire, Willie Wimberly, defendant's employee, stated to an investigating fire officer that the fire started after Wimberly attempted to burn cobwebs with a gasoline torch. This testimony was probative evidence of the fire's causation, properly admitted as part of the res gestae. Enjoy
awroe 08-29-07, 03:03 PM	A Web spell has been cast. Someone tries to free themselves or others by using fire. Say Flaming Sphere, fiery arrows (mundane or magical), or even a torch. Does the fire spread, propogate or only clear the square targeted with fire? I've seen it played both ways at tables. Anyone? Expect Table Variation.
Zanzibax 08-29-07, 03:04 PM	This is kinda fun: http://www.infohorse.com/barnfires.asp A broom and rake are the two best fire prevention tools a horse owner can have. Maintaining a clean barn is excellent fire protection that requires little daily effort. Get rid of cobwebs hanging from the rafters. Sure, after a few days they'll all magically reappear, but keep after them. Cobwebs provide excellent pathways along which flame can travel--so quickly that in seconds fire will have spread from one end of the barn to the other. In addition, flaming pieces of cobwebs falling into stalls will start new fires. But I have to get back to cleaning the house...ironically enough.
Zanzibax 08-29-07, 03:08 PM	Expect Table Variation. Yes...definitely expect table variation in those regions where few spiderwebs or cobwebs ever collect. Some people just don't know.
Arvagor 08-29-07, 03:14 PM	You need more spiderwebs under your porch. Something so thick that they all become interleaved. :schemes:I stand corrected -- many times over (for RL cobwebs at least ;) ). What can I say, other than I sweep regularly...
Zanzibax 08-29-07, 03:20 PM	I stand corrected -- many times over (for RL cobwebs at least ;) ). What can I say, other than I sweep regularly... Just don't call me pyro...after I charred the underside of the 2nd floor of our barn, I got out of the habit. :mage: Honest!
Rerednaw 08-29-07, 03:31 PM	Hmm, so it is still ETV? I was hoping for a FAQ/errata somewhere. Considering the Web spell states the the strands are like spider silk would be an argument for propogation. Except nowhere in the spell description is this mentioned. If a torch can only clear 5 square feet in a single round, then how does that translate to catching on fire and spreading? Oh well, guess I'll stick with ETV.
Zanzibax 08-29-07, 03:38 PM	Hmm, so it is still ETV? I was hoping for a FAQ/errata somewhere. Considering the Web spell states the the strands are like spider silk would be an argument for propogation. Except nowhere in the spell description is this mentioned. If a torch can only clear 5 square feet in a single round, then how does that translate to catching on fire and spreading? Oh well, guess I'll stick with ETV. Considering that in RL, a 40x40x40 area festooned with webs thick enough to capture and hold several grown men and even an elephant would burn so fast that it would explode if set alight...you'll have to expect table variation. 5x5x5 in 1 round...feh.
Arvagor 08-29-07, 03:49 PM	Hmm, so it is still ETV? I was hoping for a FAQ/errata somewhere.Yeah, I don't think we're gonna get any more errata at this point ;) I'd honestly go with whichever way the party/DM wants to go; I was just saying we've only ever played it as one square per round, but I see the argument for spreading as well. Something like (W = web, X = fire, . = cleared): Round 1 Round 2 Round3 W W W W W W W W W W X X X X X W W W W W W X X X W X . . . X W W X W W --> W X . X W --> X . . . X --> Etc. W W W W W W X X X W X . . . X W W W W W W W W W W X X X X X That seems to strike a reasonable balance, IMO, between the text of the spell, and Zanzibax's "exploding webs"... :)
Sieylianna 08-29-07, 06:19 PM	In 2nd edition, webs burned instantaenously. That went away with the arrival of third edition. Ed
Hariman 08-29-07, 06:51 PM	DMs in my area always go to the "Only the squares actually affected by the fire" ruling. So torches are one square a round. (Although iterative attacks might add more, I never had iterative attacks come up.) Burning hands would burn either six or seven squares, depending on how the cone was oriented. Fireball would burn the area of the fireball. It saves the trouble of tracking how the fire burns or having your grey elf wizard's web go up in smoke because the rogue wanted to use an alchemist's fire.
Istaran 08-29-07, 08:01 PM	Arvagor: Something like your suggestion is how I've always played it, and ad hoc'd rules regarding damage from it (basically we play it as there being a 'front' of fire. When that front passes over you, you immediately take damage but you are free of the web and no longer in risk of more fire damage unless you pass through the front again for some reason). I have no idea how fast real webs burn, but since they're a region rich in fuel with plenty of open space for air flow I imagine it is pretty fast. Exploding seems a bit much, though not impossible. Burning webs igniting each adjacent square one round after they catch fire seems like the right balance to me: the whole thing goes in under a minute, but not instantly.
Madfox11 08-30-07, 02:47 AM	Considering that in RL, a 40x40x40 area festooned with webs thick enough to capture and hold several grown men and even an elephant would burn so fast that it would explode if set alight...you'll have to expect table variation. 5x5x5 in 1 round...feh. Comparing RL to a D&D spell are we? I suspect that the web is not even close to ordinary cobwebs, because enough cobwebs to keep everything captured (even a gargantuan creature) would likely be solid and the webs don't give that much cover ;) Expect table variation. I personally just don't want to bother checking the progress and an instant woosh effect would be a little bit too effective in getting rid of a 2nd level spell (even if that spell is a tad powerful). So I just let it burn away the specific square.
Zanzibax 08-30-07, 03:49 PM	I have no idea how fast real webs burn, but since they're a region rich in fuel with plenty of open space for air flow I imagine it is pretty fast. Exploding seems a bit much, though not impossible. Burning webs igniting each adjacent square one round after they catch fire seems like the right balance to me: the whole thing goes in under a minute, but not instantly. I know how fast real webs burn!! :detect: The whole thing would go up so fast that you could confuse it with "instantly" quite easily. When I lit a few webs up in my younger years, the speed at which they burned was called "Holy ****" A line of spilled gasoline doesn't burn as fast. I just think it's funny the different way people rule on these things when they have never burned a web themselves, nor seen how packed webs burn.
Zanzibax 08-30-07, 03:57 PM	Comparing RL to a D&D spell are we? I suspect that the web is not even close to ordinary cobwebs, because enough cobwebs to keep everything captured (even a gargantuan creature) would likely be solid and the webs don't give that much cover ;) Expect table variation. I personally just don't want to bother checking the progress and an instant woosh effect would be a little bit too effective in getting rid of a 2nd level spell (even if that spell is a tad powerful). So I just let it burn away the specific square. The 2d4 damage from a fired web is definitely too low for it to be considered a real web, considering how densely packed the webbing would have to be for the amount of cover and strength of the webs that are given.
clannagh 08-30-07, 08:07 PM	The webs in the game are created by a spell. The webs in the barn in South Dakota or where-ever were created by spiders. The way a real web burns can never be more than an indication of how it might work in the game. Expect table Variation.
Timlagor 09-04-07, 01:11 PM	It spreads at my table but I don't count on other GMs agreeing (though only because i've run into enough who don't -not that I think they are justified)