Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 01-10-07, 12:09 PM	Seriously, it just makes tracking more difficult, because every time you gain or lose an item, you techincally need a new MIL and get a judge to sign it. But requiring a signiture on an MIL is redundant, as long as the AR's the items come from are signed and valid. The primary purpose of an MIL is a quick reference for what items a PC has available, and where he got them. If a judge questions the validity of an item, the player can simply whip out the relevant AR and BAM! No problems. It's not like most judges pay much attention to MIL's anyway. Never had a judge request to see one, and the few times I've needed to update my MIL's, the judge gave it just a cursury glance and signed off anyway. So my main point is that needing a signed MIL creates needless campaing hassle. Especially for those who play online. I can understand needed a judge to sign off on an MIC, because you are getting something out of it, just like anything you'd have in the "item's bought" section of a normal AR, but the MIL is little more than an extension of your character sheet, listing what you already have. I feel meta-org AR's should also not need to be signed, as they are little more than upkeep maintanence. At the very least, the start of the year meta-org AR's shouldn't need to be signed. I can understand needing a signed one for initial joining, and advancement, but the yearly upkeep is annoying to actually have to bother getting signed...Anyone else feel this way?
amnuxoll 01-10-07, 01:48 PM	Total agreement here. Fortunately, it's not that big of an inconvenience. Personally, I'd like to see the MICs go away too. Keep them around as a guide but make them optional documentation (kind of like the worksheets on your tax return).
cycloptic_squirrel 01-10-07, 02:35 PM	Ideally it adds an extra chance to catch mistakes. Anything signed also serves as a witness to the document. Things get hectic at a table, especially at conventions. Every time I'm asked to sign a MIC, MIL, meta-org, or the like I don't check every detail; but I do glance over it, trying to catch mistakes and probing further if something seems questionable. I agree that it's only a minor benefit, but I see it as worthwhile. Online would be a greater hassle, but not so much more so when the judge has to sent you the ARs anyway.
budleiser 01-10-07, 02:39 PM	I use the 3.5 character sheets, 4 pages long. It has an entire page for possessions. So I agree whole heartedly that MIL is overkill. AR's are documented that you bought it, and we have our own sheets to show what were carrying. A more useful sheet would be on going effects that carry over from mod to mod. I'm going to have to make my own eventually as a necessity. So many favors, circumstance bonuses, automatic bonuses, curses and etc. I sure don't feel MIL is necessity though. (I have no comments on MIC because I have not built a spellcaster yet)
LachlarlanIII 01-10-07, 02:50 PM	In the 2(3?) years they've been 'mandatory' I've never once had a DM say "Let me see your MIL." In fact, the only time any of my DM's have looked at the thing is when I make them sign it, and at that time, they're usually blank.
Howie23 01-10-07, 02:53 PM	Ideally it adds an extra chance to catch mistakes. Anything signed also serves as a witness to the document. Other than those who think there should be no MIL at all, this is the core of the question. The signature shows that the MIL was created. That's all. It says nothing about the content. For a new character, it starts blank. If it is a replacement, in theory it should witness the transfer of material from the old one. There is no record of what has been witnessed and what has not. David
Sieylianna 01-10-07, 05:54 PM	In the 2(3?) years they've been 'mandatory' I've never once had a DM say "Let me see your MIL." I've seen a judge refuse to allow another player to use a healing potion which she had purchased on an AR because it wasn't on her MIL. That was only one of the reasons that I had a bad experience at his table. Ed
clannagh 01-10-07, 08:07 PM	I've seen a judge refuse to allow another player to use a healing potion which she had purchased on an AR because it wasn't on her MIL. That was only one of the reasons that I had a bad experience at his table. Ed The problem is without an MIL and proper GM tracking (and I agree most GM's do ignore it) the one scroll or potion can last forever - reusable every game - because the AR only shows you buying it and without a MIL there is no LG legal documentation to track whether it ahs been used. Potion of cure light ?? yeah here it is I bought it 58 AR's ago !!!
Jay_Ibero_911 01-10-07, 08:21 PM	The problem is without an MIL and proper GM tracking (and I agree most GM's do ignore it) the one scroll or potion can last forever - reusable every game - because the AR only shows you buying it and without a MIL there is no LG legal documentation to track whether it ahs been used. Potion of cure light ?? yeah here it is I bought it 58 AR's ago !!! You know what? That actually IS a good point. Consumables do tend to complicate things...I guess it would be too much to ask for people to just be honest about these things. I think a good compromise would be to only require an "official" MIL for the purposes of tracking consumable items only. A CIL or Consumable Item Log if you will, because permanent magic items are far easier to track. I think this could greatly simplify the game, especially for those who use minimal or no consumables. Sure, it wouldn't reduce paperwork too much for most wizards, but even they won't have to worry as much about their permanent magic items. Anybody else like the idea?
budleiser 01-10-07, 08:22 PM	The problem is without an MIL and proper GM tracking (and I agree most GM's do ignore it) the one scroll or potion can last forever - reusable every game - because the AR only shows you buying it and without a MIL there is no LG legal documentation to track whether it ahs been used. Potion of cure light ?? yeah here it is I bought it 58 AR's ago !!! You make 58 sound like a lot. I think I have one over 40+ mods ago. And I only bought that because I was playing up. Just cause you have a sheet of paper to mark it used, doesn't mean players will mark it down. In fact having multiple places to track the same thing will increase the likely hood. They remember to write it on the MIL but forget to mark it off their saddle bags. Mid combat mods later they use it, only later do they realize they didn't have it. This doesn't even count people who try to cheat. All they have to do is not mark it off the MIL. Easier to do this is with a wand of cure light wounds. Use it 5 times, mark twice. At some point you have to trust the players.
_m_ 01-10-07, 10:13 PM	You make 58 sound like a lot. I think I have one over 40+ mods ago. And I only bought that because I was playing up. Just cause you have a sheet of paper to mark it used, doesn't mean players will mark it down. In fact having multiple places to track the same thing will increase the likely hood. They remember to write it on the MIL but forget to mark it off their saddle bags. Mid combat mods later they use it, only later do they realize they didn't have it. This doesn't even count people who try to cheat. All they have to do is not mark it off the MIL. Easier to do this is with a wand of cure light wounds. Use it 5 times, mark twice. At some point you have to trust the players. yeah but... whats the point at cheating at a role play game? its not like you can win at roleplay.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-10-07, 10:43 PM	yeah but... whats the point at cheating at a role play game? its not like you can win at roleplay. Sure you can! Apparently all you have to do is TPK a party.
_m_ 01-10-07, 11:00 PM	Sure you can! Apparently all you have to do is TPK a party. bawhaha. i read that thread too. :bow: :rofl: that was hella funny
budleiser 01-11-07, 01:25 AM	yeah but... whats the point at cheating at a role play game? its not like you can win at roleplay. Are you arguing my point or agreeing? I agree, which is why you should just trust the player on whether or not he has used said potion.
ShinAkuma2 01-11-07, 03:49 PM	I don't know if this is true for everyone, but many players I game with have a set of consumables they always carry, and always replace at the end of the module in which they are used. For instance, with my Monk, I always carry two potions of Cure Light Wounds, 2 Potions of Magic Fang, and two Tanglefoot Bags, among other necessities. If I use them, I replace them. Some people, as I do, individually list everything on the AR. At least a couple of people simply put "replaced consumables", have the GM go over the total items used and cost, and initial when appropriate. As such, I have MIL items that I bought a long time ago, and seemingly never used, but that's because I replace them immediately and see no reason to have a thousand MILs to track my usage of CLW potions.
_m_ 01-11-07, 05:13 PM	Are you arguing my point or agreeing? I agree, which is why you should just trust the player on whether or not he has used said potion. im agreeing. if you really wanted to, there are thousands of ways you could cheat in lgh... but what would be the point? its like cheating at a single player computer game... you just win, and miss thw whole game.
UMiskatonic 01-15-07, 03:16 PM	I'm not sure about signing, but I often ask to see MILs when I judge high-level tables. It saves a lot of time, so I can ask "what's this Sword of Zodal do?" up-front, and not during the fight. There are also plenty of players out there who are not rule experts, and it occasionally helps catch mistakes.
shuntsbe 01-16-07, 03:37 AM	As a player: MIL is very useful to keep track of all of my items in one place, especially consumables. I have multiple characters, so I forget if this one has a potion of fly or if that was another. As a judge: MIL is good to help people remember to track stuff. I have seen more than one (usually new or young) player use a wand that they bought and I never see them record charges. CLW is no big deal, but when it is Cure Serious or better, then they made an investment in that wand, and it needs tracking. Whenever anyone asks me to sign a MIL, I ask for their prior MIL, as well as any ARs that show them as purchasing additional items. I suggest that others do this as well. Otherwise what is the point?
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 01:22 PM	As a player: MIL is very useful to keep track of all of my items in one place, especially consumables. I have multiple characters, so I forget if this one has a potion of fly or if that was another. As a judge: MIL is good to help people remember to track stuff. I have seen more than one (usually new or young) player use a wand that they bought and I never see them record charges. CLW is no big deal, but when it is Cure Serious or better, then they made an investment in that wand, and it needs tracking. Whenever anyone asks me to sign a MIL, I ask for their prior MIL, as well as any ARs that show them as purchasing additional items. I suggest that others do this as well. Otherwise what is the point? As I've previously noted, I do concede that it is a good idea to require documented tracking of CONSUMABLE items. I just think it is redundant for permanent items. That said, I don't think that you shouldn't have a log for your permanent magic items, I just think it shouldn't need a judges signiture, unlike with expensive consumables...
LGMoses 01-16-07, 02:11 PM	its just a sig, quit whining. :P
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 03:26 PM	its just a sig, quit whining. :P What can I say? I hate redundant paperwork...
_m_ 01-16-07, 06:20 PM	What can I say? I hate redundant paperwork... its called a spellbook.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 09:36 PM	its called a spellbook. Which is why I will probably never make a wizard PC...
_m_ 01-16-07, 10:49 PM	Which is why I will probably never make a wizard PC... *cry* join us, join the fold my child. wizards are truly the path to power.
RedKnightofKet 01-16-07, 10:59 PM	You are all about seducing people to your side, aren't you? ;) *cry* join us, join the fold my child. wizards are truly the path to power.
_m_ 01-16-07, 11:06 PM	You are all about seducing people to your side, aren't you? ;) :angelhide perhaps... but isn't it more fun on my side?
RedKnightofKet 01-16-07, 11:08 PM	I never said I didn't like being on your side..... :devil: :angelhide perhaps... but isn't it more fun on my side?
_m_ 01-16-07, 11:49 PM	I never said I didn't like being on your side..... :devil: hehehe. *hug* and they say *suggestion* is situational...
RedKnightofKet 01-16-07, 11:56 PM	It helps when one voluntarily fails will saves ;) PS - sorry for the derailment, this will be the last post on this topic from me... hehehe. *hug* and they say *suggestion* is situational...
_m_ 01-17-07, 12:04 AM	It helps when one voluntarily fails will saves ;) PS - sorry for the derailment, this will be the last post on this topic from me... to be fair, its a thread about the situational uselessness of a peice of paper that's a minor inconvinience sometimes, and that is unchangeable anyway... i dont think we'll get shot at for going of topi... *ducks bullet* ... ok, i dont think we'll get shot at twice... :hides: