Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prof. Pacali 09-05-07, 03:38 PM	Hi I have a few questions about the Whirling Blade spell from Spell Compendium: 1) If a spellcaster is not proficient with the weapon used as the focus of the spell does he take a -4 penalty to hit the targets when casting the spell? 2) Can the weapon's damage be affected by the Empower Spell feat? 3) What happens when you crit with the spell? Do affects that improve critical range like keen weapon apply when casting the spell? Thanks for any help. Leor
Jay_Ibero_911 09-05-07, 06:13 PM	Hi I have a few questions about the Whirling Blade spell from Spell Compendium: 1) If a spellcaster is not proficient with the weapon used as the focus of the spell does he take a -4 penalty to hit the targets when casting the spell? 2) Can the weapon's damage be affected by the Empower Spell feat? 3) What happens when you crit with the spell? Do affects that improve critical range like keen weapon apply when casting the spell? Thanks for any help. Leor 1) Yes, the attack roll uses all your normal melee attack bonuses and penalties with the given weapon. 2) That I'm not sure on. 3) Crits function normally for the weapon you are using with the spell. If you use a +1 Keen scythe then you threat on 19-20 and deal 4x damage on a confirmed crit.
Hariman 09-05-07, 10:06 PM	Jay has already covered questions 1 and 3. As for question 2: I think the answer will be no. I say this because the effect of the spell is to attack with the weapon. It's similar to a summon spell, because the effect of the spell isn't the damage itself, it's the attack. Now, you could use spells like Greater Magic Weapon to increase attack bonus and damage, Master's Touch to get rid of a non-proficiency penalty, not to mention other spells to increase damage. Also, buffing your casting stat can help too.
solbergb 09-06-07, 01:41 PM	Hi I have a few questions about the Whirling Blade spell from Spell Compendium: 1) If a spellcaster is not proficient with the weapon used as the focus of the spell does he take a -4 penalty to hit the targets when casting the spell? 2) Can the weapon's damage be affected by the Empower Spell feat? 3) What happens when you crit with the spell? Do affects that improve critical range like keen weapon apply when casting the spell? Thanks for any help. Leor 1. Yes. It is precisely like swinging the weapon yourself, except swapping int or cha for strength if you desire. 2. no, because the weapon does the damage, not the spell. There are no variable spell effects to empower. This is similar to a summoned monster. 3. You don't crit with the spell. You crit with the weapon. If the weapon has enhanced crit range (keen) or if you have improved crit, the weapon benefits. In all ways, the whirling blade is exactly like swinging the weapon yourself, except for the attribute used for to-hit and damage chance. Just keep that in your head, and you will rule correctly. All of your feats (or lack of them) apply, as does any property of or enchantement to the weapon itself.
KarmaInferno 09-06-07, 04:35 PM	This is why Whirling Blade really sucks for a primary arcane caster. Most are pretty pathetic when swinging a sword or whatever, and won't have the feats and abilities to do much. For them there is usually far more effective spells of that level they could be throwing. In the hands of a melee primary character, though... You know that power attacking beef barbarian mutt that does just ugly things with a greatsword? If he gets the ability to cast Whirling Blade, he can now do those ugly things to everyone in a 60 foot line. -karma
solbergb 09-06-07, 04:41 PM	Whirling blade in the hands of a primary arcane caster is essentially a magic missile that can work on stuff magic missile doesn't work on (golems with adamantine blade, stuff with SR, annoying NPC's with 8 mirror images etc) and which does magic-missile-like damage in a line, if you can hit the targets. It's a utility spell or a mop-up spell, not a primary attack, but it has its uses. In the hands of a gish, it's pretty much required to get the most out of the round you're moving up to get the full attack.
KarmaInferno 09-06-07, 04:58 PM	A tangent, but many golems have "immunity to magic", which means they effectively have an infinite Spell Resistance rating. What does that do to spells that don't allow Spell Resistance checks? Right. They have full effect on the golem. A lot of folks I play with don't seem to realize this, assuming that "Immunity to Magic" means just that. My warmage laughed at the last golem she ran across, as she blew it to pieces with Orb spells. -karma
Hariman 09-07-07, 01:48 AM	This is why Whirling Blade really sucks for a primary arcane caster. Most are pretty pathetic when swinging a sword or whatever, and won't have the feats and abilities to do much. For them there is usually far more effective spells of that level they could be throwing. In the hands of a melee primary character, though... You know that power attacking beef barbarian mutt that does just ugly things with a greatsword? If he gets the ability to cast Whirling Blade, he can now do those ugly things to everyone in a 60 foot line. -karma The barbarian can't do it while raging. But enemies won't like it when the caster sacks a spell via Arcane Strike to boost the attacks/damage and power attacks with that Keen Scythe that he crafted just for when he uses Whirling Blade! Also, being able to substitute the casting stat for the strength stat makes the spell/weapon more effective than it would normally be. There's a big difference between a 10 STR and an 18 INT. But you are right. It's best in either crowded corridors or as a mop up spell.
JohnduBois 09-07-07, 07:12 AM	The barbarian can't do it while raging. But enemies won't like it when the caster sacks a spell via Arcane Strike to boost the attacks/damage and power attacks with that Keen Scythe that he crafted just for when he uses Whirling Blade! Also, being able to substitute the casting stat for the strength stat makes the spell/weapon more effective than it would normally be. There's a big difference between a 10 STR and an 18 INT. But you are right. It's best in either crowded corridors or as a mop up spell. It's also a fantastic spell for Warchanters who actually took at least four levels in bard. The best place for this spell, though, is in the Fantastic Locations ADP adventures. I racked up nearly 400 damage (divided among multiple targets) in one round with a single Whirling Blade in one...
dkay807 09-07-07, 10:09 AM	My 15th level Spellsword is essentially based around Whirling Blade. You certainly cannot empower it because there are no variable effects - the damage from it comes from weapon damage, not spell damage. However, it gets extremely nasty when used in conjunction with meta-magic feats such as: - Twin Spell - Quicken Spell - Widen Spell - Transdimensional Spell And also combos very well with Mobile Spellcasting (so you can move into position and cast as one standard action, giving you an extra move action to take cover or channel a spell if you're a spellsword prior to attacking).
dkay807 09-07-07, 10:10 AM	It's also a fantastic spell for Warchanters who actually took at least four levels in bard. The best place for this spell, though, is in the Fantastic Locations ADP adventures. I racked up nearly 400 damage (divided among multiple targets) in one round with a single Whirling Blade in one... I've hit over 1,000 damage with Whirling Blade (though that was two of them) ;)
solbergb 09-07-07, 12:04 PM	A lot of folks I play with don't seem to realize this, assuming that "Immunity to Magic" means just that. My warmage laughed at the last golem she ran across, as she blew it to pieces with Orb spells. -karma Yeah, well, my sorcerer unlike a warmage, doesn't get the full set of lesser and full orb spells for free. So she uses other means (mostly sculped grease, maybe evards or solid fog, then whirling blade with adamantine sickle to help with the mopup). I grant that on most primary caster arcanists, there are better choices than whirling blade.
copper_wyrmling 09-07-07, 01:49 PM	Yeah, well, my sorcerer unlike a warmage, doesn't get the full set of lesser and full orb spells for free. So she uses other means (mostly sculped grease, maybe evards or solid fog, then whirling blade with adamantine sickle to help with the mopup). I grant that on most primary caster arcanists, there are better choices than whirling blade. Also, whirling blade can do subdual damage, without needing to invest a feat in it. This is sometimes important. (It came up in the one game I ever played with Brad's sorcerer - my sorc does not actually have a subdual option per se.)
solbergb 09-07-07, 02:16 PM	right. If you can hit with the -4 (easier if you've greased and evard-grappled them heh)
Hariman 09-07-07, 07:24 PM	Yeah, well, my sorcerer unlike a warmage, doesn't get the full set of lesser and full orb spells for free. So she uses other means (mostly sculped grease, maybe evards or solid fog, then whirling blade with adamantine sickle to help with the mopup). I grant that on most primary caster arcanists, there are better choices than whirling blade. Sculpted Grease. Cool. I gotta see if Sculpt Spell will fit onto my sorcerer. And if it does, what other spells I can use it with. Here's a thought, Cast "Sonic Weapon" on the Whirling Blade Weapon before you cast Whirling Blade. That's an extra 1d6 for each hit that connects. AND you still have sonic weapon on the weapon that was used. I'm gonna have to see what I can do with Whirling Blade. It might go well on my sorcerer. It probably wouldn't be a bad thing on my rogue/wizard either.
Vamroc 09-10-07, 06:01 PM	I believe Sculpt Spell is used on cone and or area effect spells. A sculpted Whirling Blades is just rude but it certainly looks cool.
solbergb 09-10-07, 07:43 PM	Sculpted whirling blade has some table variation, because it says "effect Line" not "area line" The side saying you can sculpt pretty much boils down to. "There is no definition of a line effect that isn't under the "Area" section in the magic item description" The side saying you can't sculpt points to how the fog spells work, and while they don't mention the line effect as such, it limits sculpt strictly to things with the "Area" descriptor. Where I live, I have had no problem sculpting whirling blades, but I don't do it that often so I'm not sure how good the benchmark is.